In this, episode of Flightpath with Alok, we hear from David Power, a much-respected figure in the world of aviation leasing. David currently holds multiple board and advisory positions within the aviation sector. These include being, a special advisor to Aergo Capital; Vice Chair of the Advisory Board - The Hague Court of Arbitration for Aviation and Chair of Technical Standing Committee; Board Member of AviLease; Founder and Principal of Solus Capital Partners, and Chair of the board at FADO an Irish manufacturing company. Prior to this, David was the Chair of Orix, Hong Kong. David held the position of Orix Aviation CEO until 2019, crowning a career with the company, spanning more than twenty-six years. David grew ORIX Aviation from a small 20-aircraft lessor to an Asset Management powerhouse and top 10 lessors. At the time David left Orix, it owned and managed a fleet of approximately 300 commercial aircraft, worth US$12bn as well as a 30% stake in Avolon, a top three Lessor. David talks to Alok about his early years, what it was like growing up in a rural setting on the west coast of County Clare, Ireland, his early career and studies, and how he found himself on the path of aviation leasing. David speaks openly about the highs, lows and successes of his career. And, David’s professional experience certainly demonstrates the level of variety and longevity a career in aviation can offer to the next generation of young executives, possibly considering their own careers and whether aviation may offer them the opportunity, purpose and fulfilment they are seeking. #assetmanagement #aviation #aircraftleasing #aviationfinance #flightpath #alok #flightpathwithalok Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alokanand23/ Watch our video podcasts here: https://www.youtube.com/flightpathwithalok Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flightpathwithalok Podcast: https://linktr.ee/flightpathwithalok Produced & Distributed by Spooler https://www.spooler.in  

In this, the 3rd episode of Flightpath with Alok, we hear from Firoz Tarapore, Chief Executive Officer and member of the Board of Directors of Dubai Aerospace Enterprise (DAE). DAE is a specialist, global aircraft leasing partner boasting an impressive three decades of experience in the global leasing market. Firoz joined DAE whilst it was in its infancy and played a pivotal role in developing DAE, first as chief finance officer, then as a chief operating officer, before then taking the helm as CEO of what has become one of the world's largest aircraft leasing companies. His vision and strategic planning have helped DAE to become a key player in the aviation industry. Under his leadership, DAE has grown significantly and expanded its fleet size to approximately 500 aircraft. Firoz holds an MBA in Finance from The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania and a Bachelor of Commerce from the University of Bombay. Firoz talks to Alok about his early years, moving to the US from Bombay to further his finance studies, why he stayed for 22 years, and why he decided to make the move to Dubai. Firoz speaks candidly about the successes and insights he has picked up along the way and gives some thought to what the next generation of young executives may benefit from as they consider their career paths and whether aviation may be what they are looking for. #assetmanagement #aviation #aircraftleasing #aviationfinance #flightpath #alok #flightpathwithalok #ifsca #giftcity #india #dae #daecapital #dubaiaerospace #firoztarapore #dubai Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alokanand23/ Watch our video podcasts here: https://www.youtube.com/flightpathwithalok Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flightpathwithalok Podcast: https://linktr.ee/flightpathwithalok Produced & Distributed by Spooler https://www.spooler.in Transcript: Alok | Flightpath: I wanted to set a context and I have never had this opportunity to sit down with you actually. Firoz Tarapore: Hahaha Alok | Flightpath: So I’m personally very glad that I'm getting that, even though I've known you for many years now. And before I even start, I'm actually very curious, your full name is familiar to me because I think the name comes from a place called Tarapur in Maharashtra. Please allow me to welcome you to the show. This is the third episode of The Flight Path with me, Alok. And it's a pleasure that you have accepted to give us time. I think you're in Dubai right now, morning 9.30 AM for you. So thank you very much for making time. I think I'll straight away start with knowing a little bit about the story, I don't know much about your story, basically. Please tell us, especially your upbringing, where you're from, how you have come to Dubai, and now you are leading this big firm, DAE. Firoz Tarapore: We're trying to make it bigger. Yeah, so listen, my background is relatively straightforward as it comes. I grew up in Bombay and I still continue to call it Bombay. And I studied there, I worked there for a little bit, and then I went to the US to do further studies in finance. And as it turns out, when you are a kid, growing up in India and you go to the US for studies, the financial obligations at the end of those studies are not insignificant. Then you say, maybe I'll work for a year or two years and see if I can pay all that out. So 22 years after that, I left the US to come join a startup company in Dubai called Dubai Aerospace. And I joined them as CFO because my background is essentially finance and transactions and structured operations and stuff like this. And it's been a ride since then where we've taken this startup through global financial crisis, where there were things that we had to worry about that were not in the original business plan, but we dealt with those. And then today, you know, we are kind of what we are. So it's been a journey, but it's relatively straightforward. Study work, study work, and here we are. Alok | Flightpath: Ok, you have kind of oversimplified it. Firoz Tarapore: HA! Alok | Flightpath: But Ok, I'll take that. That at least gives me some insight. And now, what I understand is Dubai Aerospace is a very interesting company, because Dubai Aerospace is not just a lessor. There's a group, DAE Capital, obviously. It's a big lessor. But you also have DAE Engineering. And it's a very interesting combination. I think possibly the only lessor I know of who is having this interesting mix of an MRO and a capital provider leasing company at the same time. How has that come about? And I was wondering from a business model point of view, what is the thinking behind this and how do you see it drives value, you know? Firoz Tarapore: Yeah. So to understand that we have to take two steps back. As you can surmise from the name of our company, it says Dubai Aerospace. It doesn't say Dubai Leasing, Dubai Aviation Leasing, Dubai Aircraft Leasing or whatever. And when we started out live, the mandate was to establish a footprint in six different protocols within the aviation space. And that's the reason for the broad name of aerospace because we were intending to have a large footprint in the manufacturing side of things, in the engineering side of things, in the servicing, education, et cetera, et cetera. And when we had to refocus our resources because resources were limited after 2008-2009, we focused essentially on those two elements out of those six that we could establish a strong market presence in and that also were kind of profitable as opposed to spending years and years and years investing before you break even before you start making money. And those two segments were leasing and engineering. And just as background, at that time, we owned the world's largest independent engine MRO called Standard Arrow. And Standard Arrow is now a huge company because after we invested it in 2015, the owners after that did incredible consolidation and it's a bigger company. But at that time, we had a very large engine MRO presence. But it was headquartered out of necessity out of North America because that's where the engines are by and large. It was a global business, but all the facilities, nine out of our 13 facilities were in either US or Canada. And the strategy at that point was to have acquired all of this to ultimately bring the nexus of all of that to Dubai. But as it turns out, in the engine MRO space, the economics are massively skewed in favour of the OEM as opposed to the independent MRO because you have to buy parts from them, you have to buy IP from them and when you end up paying for all that, what is left really is just margin on labor, which is a hard global business to run. So we changed our focus, we got rid of the engine MRO business, which is a great business for somebody who can do different things with it. And then we instead invested in an airframe and everything other than MRO business in the region. And so we established that beachhead through the acquisition of Joramco. And then we spent the last few years turning that operation from what it was to the world class business that it is today. Revenues are now double what they were when we acquired it. And our business plan is to double them from this point forward within the next, I would say five-ish years by expanding, by doing different things. And so I think broadly speaking, our ambitions are to create a broader aviation company, not just a leasing company. Predominantly, in the region when you look at everything other than leasing. Leasing is a global business. You can't be a regional resort. That doesn't make any sense because these are mobile assets. We can globally move them around. But on other stuff, for example, Joramco is one of the leading MROs in the region. There are other areas that within aviation that have been dormant and it's quite dormant for us. And it's quite likely, quite possible that as we think now about next steps, that we might acquire something that fits with what we do and what our overall aspirations are and are consistent with the developments in the industry. So if you think about technology, if you think about the momentum around what’s going on with decarbonization, if you think then about what aviation needs at the vector of all of those things, there are opportunities that we might consider. So think of us not just as a lessor, although we're a very large top 10 lessor, as a broader aviation company, but everything we do, we do because it makes sense on its own two feet. We don't buy an MRO because it helps the leasing or we don't do leasing because it helps the MRO, because it doesn't. There are two separate businesses. I've got leaders running those businesses and each of their KPIs is set based on what they can do, not what they can do because of each other. And even today, you know, there is a purely arm's length relationship between our division. So one division wants to use the services of another, they pay the rate that the division is asking, they stand in line consistent with their request, and that's kind of how it works. Alok | Flightpath: So you know the other question I have from an aircraft leasing perspective. As a business, as aircraft leasing is evolving, you are a unique lessor, in terms of your geographical location, and ability to, I think, deploy capital and assets in a large part of Middle East. But also you have this big unit now, since around five, six years back, you had acquired EVAS, you have a big setup in Dublin. So it gives you a very unique perspective. And one of the things which I have been researching is how the different lessors are operating, like some lessors I know out there, they like to call themselves order book lessors, where they go about placing a big order book and then deploying them. SLB is not typically a model for them. I believe DAE is doing kind of both, DAE capital, I mean, they're doing order booking, but they're also doing time to time SLB leasing, right? I was just hoping to get a perspective from you. And this is purely an academic question, as to what are the merits, how you think these models work and what works possibly best for DAE and why. Firoz Tarapore: Yeah, so I'll describe to you kind of what we are doing as a way to answering kind of what models work for us and why this versus something else, right? And so first of all, you know, if you just aspire to be a me too company, you're always going to have me too returns with it that those are never enough. Those are never adequate. So when you ask yourself the question, you know, what do you do differently? Why do you do it different? For us, there are two or three things. One is we have created a model that allows us to serve multiple masters. So because each master cannot do everything in the universe. And what I mean by that is that when I take my own capital and acquire assets, we have a very tightly defined envelope of what we will buy. This kind of asset, this kind of LSC, this kind of structure, this kind of return, this kind of that, this kind of that. And so if you imagine that this is the space in which we operate, our envelope is maybe like this. But that means we're not able to play in all the other stuff. But there are dozens of people who say, I don't want to play here, I actually want to play here, I want to play here, I want to play here. And the model that we have created is a capability set, our platform, that can serve multiple masters that can say without prejudice, without bias to say this is good or this is bad or this is preferred and this is not preferred. We can deliver returns to those people who only want to buy, say brand new aircraft on lease to Delta Airlines or British Airways or Qantas or some like that. We can provide adequate returns to people who only want to buy assets between 12 and 18 years and manage the grease part of the asset, which is actually very profitable. But we have capability sets that will allow us to effectively do the front end, the middle end, and the backend. And so one element of our business model is to have differing elements of capital or differing pockets of capital that allow our platform to punch way above its weight class. And that's very different because, and we're developing that slowly, we're not there yet. We still have many pockets to fill. But within that, when we look at our own capital, but also managed capital. One of the things that we find is that because this is a cyclical business, you know, attractiveness is different at different times, being wedded to one origination channel is not the greatest thing because all origination channels produce different returns depending upon what part of the cycle they are in. Today, one can argue that if you have an amazing order book position along with the shortage that we see in the planes, those are amazing returns that people are producing on that sort of distribution. But what we have done, but that's not always the case because when it's the opposite, you're effectively taking a $40,000, $50,000 discount just to get the plane off the books if you will. So what we have done is that we have said, that instead of relying just on one channel, which is the OEM channel, we rely and keep an active presence in all four channels. So we do OEM, SLBs, trading, which is just bilateral from other counter borders, and four M&A. And if you look at how we've done, in 2017, we bought AYVAS. In 2022, we bought Sky. In 2020-2021, we leaned in very heavily on the SLB channel because we were the only lessor in the top 10 group who was not focused on reducing their order book exposure because there's no. Instead, we were saying, we have capital. Please give us product. And we were able to underwrite a lot of attractive things in the SLB channel. We also placed a tiny kind of OEM order in that. And then today, if you look at the trading channel, it is extremely attractive for a variety of different reasons. Because the capital markets are closed, the ABS market not closed, but unaccommodated. The ABS market is not particularly helpful. So the relief valve is asset divestiture. And that is creating a very attractive opportunity. So when we look at our returns. We say that one of the reasons we do so well is that we lean in on the channel at the appropriate time of the business cycle. And that for us has been fantastically helpful. I don't think we would change that going forward. So even if we had a 200 aircraft order, let's say 100 each with Boeing and Airbus, we would still contextualize that depending upon the business cycle and do a lot of the other stuff that we do as well, because M&A, if you think about AOS, it allowed us to get to scale the world, otherwise it would have taken us God knows how many years. Same thing with respect to deploying capital during the pandemic. Those returns are substantially different than kind of steady state returns. So for us, it's a multi-channel approach and we continuously want to be different. We don't want to do what other people are doing because there's no money in that. You know, we want to earn incredible returns because we're doing definitively different things. Alok | Flightpath: So part of that equation is your fleet type. One of the other things which stand out for me is that you have turboprops also in your fleet. And I know that is also, if I may say so, is a good ESG move. But I don't think it is just that. Given what you have just explained to me, I'm sure it makes a lot of commercial sense from a returns perspective to you for you to get into the turboprop space. How do you think that playing out the turboprop in comparison to the narrow body jets, you also have a lot of wide bodies of course, but that has traditionally been the case always, you know, but in comparison to the popular narrow body jets, how do you think the turboprops are failing? Firoz Tarapore: Yeah, so let me just clarify one thing. We don't do turboprops as an asset class. The only thing we do is one non jet asset, which is the ATR 72-600, right? So we don't do any other turbo even within ATR. We don't do the ATR 42-600. The only non jet aircraft that we do is the ATR 72-600. And the reason we do that. And we placed that order in 2014. So it's nine years on now. And because NAC is exiting, we're now the world's largest lessor of 72-600s. Because it is a unique product in the 70-seater market. First, its competitor is now gone. So it pretty much is the only product if you are a 70-seat operator. And the trip cost and the seat cost of that aircraft is simply unmatched by anything else in sight. There's nothing else that can come even remotely close to what an operator can get in terms of efficiency. When you then combine that with the fact that the OEM makes only between, call it 50 and 70 a year, in pandemic years, it's lower, in some years it's higher, but call it 50 to 70 a year. And you combine it with the fact that it is not overcrowded in the lessor space, all that translates into a rational economic operating environment which produces kind of very decent returns from our perspective. And if you step back, you asked me a question about narrow-bodies, if you step back and broadly compartmentalize our portfolio in four buckets, narrow-body, wide-body passenger, ATR 72-600, and our world leading position in the factory fresh 777 freighter. In terms of profitability, ATRs are way up there because of all the things that I just described. I mean, narrow bodies are wonderful and liquid, but because of the competition in there, the returns tend to have a kind of a fairly tight range to them. But in these products, not only are they liquid, meaning they will trade, and their operator base is almost as wide as a narrow body operator, sorry, a narrow body OEM product. It produces really incredible returns for us. The OEM, sorry, the ESG story is just kind of, you know, icing on the cake, Alok | Flightpath: an add-on Firoz Tarapore: if you will. It just comes with it because fundamentally it is a perfect match between operator and aircraft provider. Alok | Flightpath: One of the other things which you have also mentioned now in your answer, in the last question, is about the pandemic and the effects of it. I was wondering that from a corporate business perspective, has there been any changes? I know the usual things which all of them have gone through, hybrid work mode, working offline, online, all that stuff. But, I'm just wondering is there anything which you feel has permanently changed now going forward as a business for you or for any business who's running in these times in general post pandemic? Firoz Tarapore: Yeah, I mean, listen, the short answer is that we're still not completely out of it. And the complicating factor is that just as the pandemic was ending, we have the Ukraine invasion, which is now kind of compounding some elements in our supply chain shortage, et cetera. From our standpoint, when you take a longer term historical kind of view of what our industry has gone through. So if you think back to the 70s and the oil shock and subsequent shocks, whether it's SARS or whether it's World Trade Center, aviation in particular, or whether it's some other financial crisis after that. Right when it happens and right after it happens, you always feel that you're in the middle of a structural change. But if you let time pass, the trend line suggests that there is a very strong kind of mean reversion with a very upward bias to it. So whilst we saw everyone make incredibly fast, incredibly nimble adjustments to what they had to do to survive and to prosper. I believe that all of those were in response to an environment that is steadily becoming an environment that's kind of, you know, yeah, we had a pandemic just like SARS was a big thing and all of the other stuff that seemed, you know, nobody had flown two commercial airliners and brought down two skyscrapers before. But we were able to kind of contextualize all of that. And I think that over time, this will kind of be in that way as well. And all along the way, I believe that the industry has learned the lessons from each of those things. So now the question is, can we learn the lessons from this and can we improve our business model going, our meaning of industry going forward? And I believe the answer is yes to that question as well. You know, one of the fundamental questions is, you know, what do you do? So what do, what do lessors do when your customer loses up to 100% of the revenue? Well, what, what do you, I mean, there is no textbook that'll answer that. So in each case, I think there is a, but, but there are extremely valuable lessons that we can learn from the last 36 months that we can then incorporate into decisions that we make going forward. One of them, for example, is that all governments don't behave in the same way. When the sun is shining, lovely, but when the sun is not shining, they behave like they're non-governmental entities, which is a useful differentiator in our credit models going forward. Alok | Flightpath: All right, that is Ok. I was actually going to ask you to illustrate what you just explained with an example. And you're actually given a very good example already. Firoz Tarapore: Just don't ask me to name the government. Alok | Flightpath: No, no, no, I'm not going to. So I do enough business now worldwide to understand that, not to ask that question. How do you see now next five to ten years spanning out from an industry forecast? And I think this question is I'm actually more targeting to the audience back home where I am right now, because in India, there is a lot of interest now in this part of the industry. So I think I'm just wondering that if there is a message there for the capital providers or bankers to understand what the market forecast is looking like over the next few years. Firoz Tarapore: Yeah. Okay. Well, that's, you know, so as you know, India is not only the fastest growing market, but as we look out at the next, I believe five-ish years, India is solidly projected to become the number three market in the world. So US, China, India or China, US, India, whichever way you want. And if you look at the core numbers for India, they're just staggering in terms of how many new people get on a plane each year and therefore how many planes are needed too. And so this is not an easy one, but I was just presenting at an industry event in New Delhi last month, where the Civil Aviation Minister and some other government officials were there as well. And we were very encouraged to see the policy support that the sector is getting in terms of infrastructure investment, in terms of promoting smaller cities, the last mile connectivity, if you will, in aviation, and also the streamlining of provisions to kind of the major airlines out there. India has always been characterized by very intense price competition. So I think this is one of the things where the capital expenditure is huge, local interest rates are high, the rupee continues to devalue, etc. So there's a lot of headwinds. And within that, the intense price competition has always been an issue that people like us worry about because when you're committing so much capital, and India is our number one country by now, that how will, and as you have seen, a few operators have just not made it in the last few years. But I think that ensuring some level playing field where people can do business, I think it would be very helpful. We are seeing sector support that is very useful. The one development that I would say, which is an extremely well-intentioned development, but with a little bit of tweak, can actually provide much more tailwind to the business, is this creation of GIF City. So if you recall, GIF City is a free zone in Gujarat where the government has been encouraging outside lessors, or outside providers of capital to set up shop people, et cetera. And of course, it hasn't taken off in the way that it was intended, because the requirements are quite burdensome. So if you think about it from our perspective, we operate in 60 countries. If we had to set up shop in every country, we wouldn't make any money, because the infrastructure just doesn't work. And so therefore, we would say that GIFCity is a wonderful idea, but instead of asking lessors to be there, what we think is a better way for the government to use that structure to incentivize aviation is for each of the airlines to set up a subsidiary in GIFCity and do all of their leasing from that subsidiary, which allows us to deploy our cost efficiency, which allows them and, not only cost efficiency, there is incredible protection that comes with having a GIFCity counter-party as opposed to a mainland counter-party from taxation, from all the other things. And so I think that with some of those things, India has the potential of not only becoming a very large aviation market, but also being assured that the capital it needs to get there is readily available, because you don't want that interruption, because it takes a long time to kind of regain trust and all of these things. So I think the enablers are stable tax policies, stable infrastructure policy, and then developments around this tax efficiency, I think would be very, very helpful, and will continue to ensure that India kind of becomes, and stays right at the top of attracting capital for aviation. And aviation, as you know, is not just the business in itself. The impact on GDP, the impact on the economy in general from aviation is quite a large multiplier as lots of other nations have studied, and concluded. Alok | Flightpath: So to just carry on from that point, sir, what you made about airlines trying to open units there and leasing in. The way I understand the model here is if that happens, that is actually not going to cause much benefit to the airline as such, because the tax liability which an operator bears in their hand when the aircraft is anyway leased to them will remain the same. It is simply shifting the liability from one bucket to another bucket as far as they are concerned. is what we have understood so far. It may have its benefits, but in the long term, I think what the government is trying to do, and I'm sure you're already well aware, is to set up a homegrown aviation leasing ecosystem in India. Now, to your point, you're absolutely right that as a global lesser, you cannot be expected to be opening shop in every country. And I do know, and speaking to the policymakers, they're kind of expecting that from most of the lessors in some form or other, while we have been advocating a little different approach to them. Now, what you have just mentioned is very different. I have not heard this kind of suggestion before, too. Now, what I would like to also ask you is that keeping aside the fact as a lesser, whether you may open shop there or not, it's a separate thing. But I think as an industry perspective, if you have to give suggestions, if like taking an example of China- all said and done to a certain extent, China and Hong Kong have managed to create an aviation leasing environment there. They have homegrown lessors. There are arguments for and against it, but at the end of the day, they've done it. And this is, I think, what the Indian government has been trying to do since 2017-18 when they started making the rules towards this. You have rightly said they have not achieved it yet. They're trying to. So maybe one thing to learn from you is... what are your suggestions? What can they do better to allow that kind of aviation leasing ecosystem to be built in the country? If there is something which you feel can be done right. Firoz Tarapore: Yeah, so I think first of all, it's a broader. It's a broader question than just aviation. And I mean it in the following way. You know, India is a full democracy. India's banking system has state-owned players, but also commercial players. And India is at a different stage of economic development than China, think about infrastructure, think about other things. So the broader question, I think, from a policy perspective is, if you look at the liquidity in the Chinese banking system, which is enormous, enormous, one of the questions that I assume policymakers ask is, how do we deploy this liquidity, right? Do we fund other people? Do we let leakage in the system? Or do we use that to create a closed loop system to fund our other ambitions, whether they are in space exploration or aviation or military or whatever it is, right? And so I think from the first question is, if there is excess liquidity in the Indian banking system, which needs to be deployed for economic development, and that's hard to do it if all players are not policy players, some are commercial players. The sector prioritization is a governmental thing that they have to look at. Does aviation float to the top? And if it doesn't float to the top, you do other things that you need to do and then this kind of gets to it. If you put that aside, let's just say that you say, yes, we've got everything going, right? It is not entirely clear to me. And I would say it's not entirely wise to create a closed loop system where you're the provider and the user of capital. Because otherwise you're just kind of commingling the issues, for example. Are you better off using other people's cheaper cost of capital, because rates elsewhere are different, your rupees depreciating, etc. to fuel the growth in aviation? Or are you better using your own liquidity? Or should you use your liquidity for other more important kind of domestic priorities, if you will. I would argue that whilst on the face of it, leasing looks easy, you know, lend and whatever. It's not. There is a significant technical body of knowledge that needs to be acquired over time. And then the question is, how, what mistakes are you willing to tolerate in the meantime? Because no learning experience is free of some stumbles somewhere. And I think I believe that just takes too long. So from a policy perspective, I would argue that if liquidity is a scarce resource, which I would argue it is, that aviation needs to get that only if it is at the top of the sector. If there are other things that are more important, then those should get that. And because there is such a large global provider base of very inexpensive capital relative to domestic cost, that would be a great way to leverage other people's capital to significantly boost aviation. But it's a policy thing. I mean, it's easy for me to sit here at a desk and give this kind of perspective. But for policy, people will do different things, meaning, I say, okay, 10 years of pain, no problem because the next 100 years will be better. So I think it comes right down to that kind of thinking. Alok | Flightpath: OK, I think that is, I think what is important is what you have said, but also what you have not said. I think it's a very good answer, it explains. About ESG, I have seen the annual report, which has come out of the DAE ending December. Very impressive, by the way, congratulations. And what I have also noticed is that you have scored very highly on the ESG front. One is the front about diversity, of course, women participation, multi-nationalities, and the, but my interest is on the E, and the front of environment. What I wanted to understand, is there a thought process, I don't know if you can tell me, not tell me, or if it's there in the future, about looking at any radical moves in terms of investing into the new technologies in transportation space? Because I'm sure as you were also in San Diego, you would have heard a lot of talk about that recently, about investing into new tech. It's not about just hybrid fuel, hydro-electric aircraft, but now there is unmanned vehicles being tested. I'm personally very passionate about that. So I just wanted to understand, I'm just wondering, is DAE has any thoughts to do anything radical in that space? Firoz Tarapore: The short answer is no. I think that these are very important developments. So when you look at vertical or beta or all these other things that are going on, either VTOL or CTOL or manned or unmanned, I think those are all things that are important. But as it turns out, these projects are quite nicely funded through a variety of different investment pools that are more specifically catered to those types of investments anyway. In some cases, like vertical, it's public, but in other cases, so for example, there are large US corporations who have dedicated investment funds for environmental projects, et cetera, et cetera. And so I think for us, investing in something that is this early stage is not the right thing for us to do. One of the investment criteria that we have is, that it must have a very clear path to scale. And once these technologies are promising, they don't have a clear path to scale at the moment. And so I think we would much rather focus on those technologies that these propositions would use as opposed to the propositions themselves. Alok | Flightpath: Okay, short and sweet answer. No, I'll remember that. One of the things I actually like to ask is about sales, but you already told me in the beginning, your background is aviation finance. Finance is your lifeblood, sir, if I'm not wrong, right? Firoz Tarapore: I’m happy to talk about sales or anything else you want to talk about. Alok | Flightpath: Yeah, yeah. I was hoping to get a couple of insights. One is about salesmanship overall. You know, see, evasion leasing is highly marketing and sales driven. And by marketing, I mean marketing to your customers, right? That is the kind of marketing we do in the aviation leasing industry. And sales is a big part of it, relationships and how sales. I would like to know your insights on- what do you think, if let us say you are hiring, or you are looking for people to begin, or you are looking to, what kind of skill sets would you look for? What do you think counts for good salesmanship? What helps to be a success in this industry in that sense? Firoz Tarapore: Yeah, so we have a, just to put it in perspective, we have about 25 people, just a couple shorter than that, in our sales organization. So these are front-facing people to our customers. We talk to approximately 200 commercial airlines and approximately 100 customers. 120 of them are our current customers. It's quite a wide net that we spread. And for us, when we look at success in that side of the business, it really comes down to a few things. One is do our salespeople know what they're talking about? Which means do they have the product knowledge and the knowledge of how we construct our leasing product, to make it efficient for our airline customers to engage into a dialogue. If not, why do I want to train somebody else? So we look for people who understand the product that we deliver and that product is both a product product, like an aircraft and then the leasing tool. Second is we enable these people, but that's part of the process, to deliver to the clients only those things that the back office or the back end can deliver. So for example, it's quite easy for a salesperson to say, yeah, no problem. Let's sign an LOI. Then you go back to credit committee and they say, what were you thinking? I can't do this. I can't do this. It's a very sour commercial experience, if you will. So from a modeling, from a sales success perspective, what we have tried to do is to throttle the speed of the front and the back office in the same way so that when the front office is making representations to our clients, they're not kind of getting ahead of themselves, if you will. And the third and the last element, which I think works for us time and again, because remember, we're now doing this for 35 years, is once we say that we're going to do it, we're going to do it. Meaning there’s no crazy surprises, there's no weird U-turns, there's no nothing like that. And what that allows us to do is ensure a higher degree of success on our next transaction because everybody remembers you negotiated well, you delivered what you said, and therefore there are returns that accrue from that. There are incremental returns I would say that accrue from that. So from our standpoint, the sales process is really veterans, full understanding, full calibration with what the franchise can deliver and the franchise always delivers. Alok | Flightpath: Ok, well articulated. And we are at the very end. I have my mandatory question of career advice. And I'm curious because I see the new generation having different requirements. I think it's the case with every new generation, right? We're all different. So what is the career advice you will give? Because this is something which ties into the retainer-ship of staff when you bring them in, how you grow their career. But also, what advice will you give somebody who's starting to start their career? Firoz Tarapore: Yeah, so listen, for me, it's fairly straightforward because I'm, you know, I kind of like black and white is nice. And so I think the when I look at the folks that we have and we have we hire every year from the graduate program in Dublin and in Dubai and in other places as well. So we have a very constant supply of fresh talent coming in. And those perspectives are very useful to us as well. And I'll say the same thing that I say to just about anybody who was coming either at that level or who has spent kind of say less than 10 years but are interested in doing more. You know, there's only really one way to do really well, which is to keep your head down and just do the job that you have been asked to do or that you want to do and kind of follow your heart. So if you're a job person, work for a company, do the best you can. If you're an entrepreneur, forget all that and start the business that you can. Because if you follow your passion, you keep your head down, don't get distracted by what he or she is doing. Before you know it, you float it to the top. And it just works absolutely, kind of without fail, if you will. If you don't like, if you're in it, because you know, you know, in a few people who say, oh, well, I love the metal, et cetera. But the work is very different. And if yo find that, go do something else. But if you like it, just put your head down, do exactly as people ask you to do, or you want to do, do more than that. And it just miraculously a path opens up that has a very nice upward trajectory to it. Alok | Flightpath: Excellent advice. Thank you very much, sir. I would just like to know, is there any last message you would like to give? Firoz Tarapore: The last message that I can give is to point to an example of an entrepreneur who I'm talking to right now, who has grown the business in an amazing way in the last decade or so, maybe a little bit more. And I would say that if you're looking for an inspiration for a success story, look no further than some of the things that you have done and how you've gotten about doing that. And I think maybe you can do your audience a service by being a guest on your own show because there’s lots of good things they can learn from all the various ways in which you come to the position that you are in today. So listen, congratulations on the incredible empire that you're building and continued success in doing that. Alok | Flightpath: Thank you very much. This is very kind of you. I'm yet to reach a stage to be interviewed, but hopefully soon. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And I wish you a good day and good weekend ahead. Firoz Tarapore: Thank you Alok, all the best! Alok | Flightpath: Thank you. Thank you once more. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Produced by Spooler

In this episode of Flightpath with Alok, we hear from Kishore Korde, executive vice president at Air Lease Corporation (ALC), an order-book lessor, principally engaged in purchasing commercial aircraft for the purpose of leasing them to airlines, worldwide.   Kishore joined ALC soon after it was founded in February 2010 and is a clearly recognisable figure within the leasing fraternity.  At ALC, Kishore’s responsibilities are many, including; the successful management of all South Asian lessees; controlling lease relationships with several international airlines across the globe; creating aircraft placement strategies, and assisting ALC's lessees in their fleet planning.  Kishore also has extensive experience in drafting and negotiating aircraft leasing and aircraft trading transactions. Prior to ALC, Kishore was with International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC), considered, at the time, to be the largest aircraft lessor in terms of book value and quickly became Managing Director for ILFC’s India business.  Kishore is fluent in three languages and has basic skills in two more. He holds Bachelor of Science, Bachelor of Laws and Masters in Business degrees, all from the University of Mumbai, India, a Juris Doctor degree from Emory University and a Master of Laws degree from the University of Pennsylvania. Kishore speaks with Alok about how he found himself in America as a young man, and how he got his first break helping enter a world of aviation.  Kishore shares some of the successes and insights he has picked up through the course of his varied and interesting career and why those just starting out on their career paths may benefit from giving aviation a look.Transcript: Kishore: The broader, the range of experiences we have, the more value we can bring to the company. We have an order book today of close to about 400 aircraft, so they're all unionised and they vote against me. We have made some changes in the way we do things. India is viewed positively. So every deal I do, I have to customise in a way my approach based on the on the country I'm dealing with, earning people's trust, robbing a bank is not what I'm talking about. Alok: Hello and welcome to Flight Path with me Alok. Hi everyone. Welcome once more with me at Flightpath with Alok. I'm recording the second episode of my podcast, and today I have the pleasure to host, Mr. Kishore Korde, Executive Vice President from Air Lease Corporation. First of all, welcome. Thank you very much, for making time to join me for this podcast and I'll appreciate if you can, maybe just give us a little intro about yourself. That will be great. Yes.Kishore: Well, thank-you, so much Alok, for the invitation. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and I've known you for many, many years. And what, as you grew Acumen, you know, from, strength to strength over the years so it's, my pleasure to, have this chat with you. And, as you, you know, started off, I am, you know, the origination side at ALC, that's what I would say is the bread and butter of my job description. But, that's only one facet. I also am involved in aircraft trading. And, now that I've spent, a few years, in the industry, I also involve myself in other aspects of the business. So, for example, on the financing side, I help out when needed. So, for example, this weekend I'll be at a meeting, at our annual bank meeting where we'll be meeting with all our bankers. We have bank relationships with more than 50 banks. And so I'll be part of the team that goes there, meets with them and spends time with them, explains the business. So the financing side is there. Then of course, you know, other issues that come up within the company that might need my intervention, attention, input, I pitch in. At ALC, you know, basically for us, our DNA is, basically about rolling up your sleeves and getting things done. So, we don't pigeonhole ourselves, into little slots because we feel the broader the range of experiences we have, the more value we can bring to the company. Alok: While doing that, how many days in a year or in a month you are traveling? Because every time I am communicating with you or there is something going on, you are in some part of the world. So just wondering how much you travel. You must be what super platinum tier now in a lot of airlines. Kishore: I don't know. At least I like to tell people we are supporting our lessees by actually flying on them and buying their tickets so they can, we're doing our part to keep them going. Alok: Right, right, right. Kishore: But, as far as travel is concerned, well, you know, look who's talking? You travel probably as much as I do. But, I'd say probably a third of my time if I average it out, is, spent on traveling. But I try to strike a balance. You know, all of us have families and it's very easy to just disappear and be on the road for weeks on end. But what I try to do is I try to squeeze my travels between a working week, you know, maybe leave on a Sunday afternoon, get back on a Saturday afternoon. And while I'm on the road, I'll hit as many countries as I can, and try to make it super efficient. It's exhausting, but I'd like to be at least be home on the weekends to spend time with the family because, you know, that is also important. And you know, especially kids grow up in the flash of an eye and suddenly, you know, your elementary schooler kid is now looking at colleges and you wonder where the time has gone. So I try to be disciplined about how I travel as well. Alok: So, you know, that is I think, the right cue for me to ask you a little. How a boy from Mumbai University ended up all the way in LA and joined aircraft leasing industry. Even today in India, now there is a lot of awareness about it, but I'm sure at that time, even when I started 10-15 years back, hardly anyone knew about it. And I’m sure when you did, maybe no one knew about it. So, tell me a little bit how you ended up doing this, what I would call a niche, and building a niche career for yourself like this, please. Kishore: Well, if I were to go back to the very beginning, yes, I grew up in Mumbai, and went to St. Xavier’s College for my undergraduate degree. I actually did an MBA. I did my law there as well, and then I came to the US for graduate school. And, to make a long story short, the graduate school, was, partly law partly business because I had a business background. I went to a University that had a well-known business school called Wharton. And, I ended up in a big law firm and that was just a regular law firm job. But, it was just a job. And growing up aviation was my passion. I just loved airplanes. I don't know why, ever since I learned to walk, my parents tell me, I probably, even before that, I was in love with airplanes. So after a few years in the law firm you know, I had this epiphany one night when I said, well, I’ve always wanted to get into aviation. I love aviation. That's my passion. But I didn't know anybody there, in the industry. I knew all about the industry because that's what I did in my spare time, read about airplanes and aviation. But I didn't really know anybody coming from India, didn't have any contacts. And I said, well, you know, I don't want to have any regrets in my life 20 years from now, I might be in the same law firm job wondering what if, you know, what if I'd done this, what if I'd done that, you know, in aviation? So I said, well, you know, let's give it a shot. If it works, it works. But if it doesn't, then my conscience is clear. At least I know I tried. I don't have to regret about, you know, well, what if I had done this or that? And so, having known about the industry and knowing, you know, all about aircraft leasing because of my interest, and ILFC was led by Steve Házy, who's also a chairman at ALC, and he's kind of like the Steve Jobs of, you know, the aviation industry in a way.Alok: He’s a legend.Kishore: And I said, well, that's the company I wanna go work for. And as I said, I didn't know anybody there. So I literally applied, cold-called them, and told them about my passion for aviation. So I guess it was, you know, 50% initiative and 50% pure luck because it just so happened that the legal department there was looking for adding some people. But, what was even more lucky for me was that the then General Council of ILFC, she had actually filled the spot and she nevertheless, for reasons only known to her, took a chance on me and gave me a job. And here I am twenty years later, still in the industry. Alok: An amazing story that is, and I'm sure she saw the passion you had and, it's like the famous saying, right? You a hundred percent regret the shots you don't take. Kishore: Exactly. Alok: You took the shot. Kishore: So, like I said, I can take only credit for the 50% of, for trying and cold calling, but the rest of it was just pure luck being in the right place at the right time and, and why she decided to take that chance like I said, I will forever be grateful to her for that. We were just typical middle-class family from, you know, King Circle, Matunga, and nobody cared anything about airplanes. Maybe I just hit my head on the wall when I was a kid. Alok: I’m sure your folks are massively proud of you, Kishore, about what you've achieved. I'm sure about that. Kishore: Well, so they're certainly very happy because all my travel gets them their free mileage tickets to come to the US, whenever they want, so they're very happy. Right now, it’s not about me, it's about the grandkids. Right.Alok: sure, sure. Kishore: But, they're happy. Alok: If you don't mind me asking, maybe tell me a little bit about your family in LA. Kishore: So I'm the only man standing, so they have all unionised and they vote against me as a union. And you know, my youngest is in elementary school, my oldest is in high school, so I have teenagers and you know the youngest one. So depending on which room I turn into, I'm either the smartest guy in the world or the stupidest guy in the world. I'm getting the full range of opinions, depending on which kid. Alok: This is one place your salesmanship won't work. Kishore: No, nothing. I have accepted defeat. Alok: Okay. So, you know, on the overall, as I alluded to the fact, you know, getting into the industry at the time, even now we see that, I know there's a lot of focus, we were in I-Stat and we were listening recently about diversity inclusion, how there is they want to, the whole industry is talking about increasing participation. I personally feel about that a lot because two reasons. One is obviously I would like more participation from our part of the world, but I also see that a majority of the world's slate is leased into Asia Pacific. But I don't see Asia Pacific being enough represented in lot of organizations, a lot of other places where we are doing deals with, and I’m, sure this is something you have observed too, and, and being, you know, someone who's all the way from Asia, India there. If you can maybe give us your thoughts on what you feel about that bit in the industry or what you think, your experience has been in ALC now and overall in the industry. How you see things are getting better or not, either way, you know? Kishore: Yeah. I mean, let me start with ALC and ILFC. I think we were always very focused on the diversity aspect, even before it became, you know, popular and you know, the way it is today. We always, even at ILFC and certainly at ALC, focused on having people with diverse backgrounds, diverse skills, diverse language skills, for example. Even at ILFC, I would say just in the legal department, and this was not by accident, but it was by design, we had people, of course, I spoke some of the Indian languages. We had French speakers, Spanish speakers, Russian speakers, Arabic speakers, Chinese speakers, Spanish speakers, and so this is just in the legal department, and we felt that by, you know, if we were to be a global leasing company, to help, to serve our customers better, it was helpful to have people with those backgrounds, diverse backgrounds, who could then relate to the customers that much more easier. And that extended to other departments as well. And the same is true at ALC, we have people from different nationalities, even in fact, Steve Házy our chairman, he is, he was born in Hungary. And he has a very interesting life story as well, how, you know, when the Russians took over and invaded the country, they escaped and made their way to the US. But that's, you know, a whole book in itself. But, the focus has always been on this diversity. Then in terms of, you know, male versus female roles, as you know, aviation so far has been, let's admit, a fairly male-dominated industry. Alok: Yes. Kishore: But agency, we are certainly trying to, to do our part in terms of empowering women, elevating them to positions of responsibility, so, you know, our Chief Accounting Officer, our Head of HR, our General Council, Head of Contracts, you know, probably Sarah Evans, and many more. We have our women, there be women in leadership positions in the company, and, you know, the job is not done yet. And, we certainly hope to, you know, keep improving on that. But these things are important I think, and, and it's the right thing to do. And it's also the right thing for our customers because we bring, to the table, a team that can really relate to them. And we try to match people to accounts where they are best positioned to serve the customer in the best way possible. Alok: To encourage more diversity, not in terms of just gender, well, gender diversity is in focus, but overall background, people's background, race, language. What do you think can be done better, as an industry participant? Kishore: I think as an industry we may need to make more conscious efforts to give people the chance. And we found that ALC, back at ILFC, if you give somebody the chance, you are very often pleasantly surprised how they can blossom into the role. We have to be conscious, that there, there could be unconscious or unintended biases in the way we think and think of when we think of, you know, matching people to a particular job description. Nobody intends to consciously, you know, put somebody down, or, or ignore somebody. But all of us are human beings and I think we, you know, there's plenty of research now.  We all undergo diversity training, even ourselves here at ALC. And it's interesting to see how psychologically the human mind works. And as I said, unintended, even though it's unintended, sometimes you might not be looking at a particular candidate who might actually turn out to be really good. And I think we have to make a conscious effort, to give people the chance to see if, you know, they would be a good fit. And as I mentioned at the very beginning of the podcast, you know, I am, you know, exhibit A, if that General Counsellor at I L F C hadn't given me the chance, I wouldn't be here today. Alok: Right, let’s move the conversation onto, you know, a little different topic about the business in general. So it's a publicly traded company, right? And, it'll be great to know from you, if you can explain the business model in general, how a typically a lesser operates, what does a lesser do, somebody who's just trying to get in the industry or is curious about it. If they are the target audience, what do you think should be the message for them to hear as to what this business is all about? And coming from you, it'll have a lot of, I think, traction or value, you know, that's why I'm requesting you to collaborate on that. Kishore: Yeah, well, for somebody who has no knowledge really, or background of what leasing is, I think, the one fact that perhaps one can talk about at the very beginning is that especially post-Covid, leasing contributes to about 50% of the global airline fleet now, you know. It used to be closer to 40%, but now post-Covid, I think it's gone to around 50% and some people think it's gonna go up even higher. It’s the big secret of the aviation industry that the average person has no clue about. Most people have no idea that when they step on an Indigo plane, for example, it’s basically, owned by some lessor. So I think that's the big sort of secret in the aviation industry vis-a-vis people who are not in the aviation industry, you know? So clearly, when you hit 50% of the global airline fleet, it is a significant, you know, portion, which cannot be ignored. And so leasing obviously is now mainstream, it’s critical, it’s no longer niche. You know, when Steve Házy started ILFC back in, you know, 50 years ago, so that's one. And then in terms of the leasing models, they, of course, different lessor have different leasing models. Our model is focused on new airplanes, the latest technology, the most fuel-efficient airplanes. We have an order book today of close to about 400 aircraft. So we are an order book lessors. Then there are other lessor who also focus on new airplanes, but they don't have an order book. So they get their planes by doing sale and leasebacks with airlines like Indigo or Akasa, or now, you know, soon, you know, Air India. Alok: So they're an SLB lessor. May I use that term? Kishore: Yes. Alok: If you are an order book lesser, right?Kishore: Exactly. Alok: YeahKishore: So, say leaseback or SLB lessor. And then you also have other players who focus on older used aircraft, midlife aircraft. So there's, you know, different types of lessor who play in different parts of the, the sandbox, so to speak. But for us it has been always, focused on being an order book lessor. For us, it has given us a strategic advantage. We are often the ones who launch new aircraft types. So at ALC, for example, we have launched the A 321 Neo LR, the A 321 Neo XLR, the 330 Neo, the 787 dash 10. So that has been our strength. And we also feel, especially in these times with the focus on ESG, we want to be, focused on the most environmentally friendly, fuel efficient aircraft that are possible. And some of the airplanes we have launched, of course, not only are they the latest technology. But in terms of how they are contributing to the environment, they are really punching above their weight. So for example, if you, if you look at the A 3 21 Neo XLR, it's a plane with a very long range. And not only is it giving you the 15%, 16% fuel savings over a 3 21, you know, CEO. But because of its range, it's actually replacing a 330. So it's, you're not really effectively looking at a 15% saving, but maybe a 30% fuel-born saving because of the range, it replaces a 330 rather than a 321 CEO, you know? Alok: Airbus will be thanking you for this marketing. Kishore: Well, that's a fact. Well, I'll send them an invoice after the podcast. Alok: I should send them this clip and say, listen, if you want the whole thing, you have to come on board as a sponsor. Kishore: Yes. But you see what I'm saying? I mean, these airplanes are getting so much more efficient, and with added, capabilities, they really are replacing far more fuel-guzzling airplanes. So, yeah, so we try at ALC to stick to that, you know, part of the sandbox. Alok: I think you have very nicely defined difference between you as a leasing company ALC, I mean other lessers, they’re categorised into three, four categories. And an aircraft leasing company, essentially, what is the, and not necessarily talking about ALC, but in general, a leasing company. How does a leasing company really make money? Kishore: The three legs of the stool, if I were to use that analogy, are basically number one, the first leg is, try to get the airplanes, buy the airplanes at the cheapest cost. The second leg of the stool is finance them in the cheapest way possible. And the third leg is lease them out at the highest lease rate possible. And that basically are the three legs of leasing. Alok: Yeah. You have simplified it. You have simplified it too much and I'm sure there are many layers in between. But if I may just say something. You know, obviously, there is big talk about the order book from India, right? Recent orders of Air India especially, huge order. And there is talk that Indigo may be placing some orders soon, to match that. Let’s hope that happens, Inshallah, as they say. But, while that is going on, in the Indian financial and aviation journalism, the talk is all about SLBs. All they talk about is, and because I think people are looking at Indigo's success and Indigo's success has been largely built on SLB model, or at least their capital efficiencies, what is widely believed. I'm not commenting on it either way, because maybe I don't think I have full knowledge of that myself, whether that is correct, but that is the impression. And everybody's saying that possibly Tata will go that same route, they will look at doing that because that gives them capital efficiency. So, and one of the reasons is, which is said at least, widely, is that the airlines are able to get the airplanes at a better price for various reasons cause they're an operator and there are a lot of bells and whistles associated with their orders. Right? And then they're able to sell them at a premium to a lessor and then get it back as a lease. However, in ALC's case, you are placing an order and you are entering a market. So basically what I understand is essentially by using that model, you are trying, you are getting, you are deriving the same advantage and you are doing it possibly at your own terms in comparison to many other lessors. Am I right in understanding that? Kishore: I would tend to agree. We feel that our order book gives us a strategic advantage. In that sense, we are more in control of our destiny, in terms of the supply of airplanes that we have access to. Clearly, there is a role for sale-leaseback and sale-leaseback lessors. But in that case, I would think, you know, a sale-leaseback lessor is more dependent then on the supply of airplanes from airline A, or airline B or airline C. And if for whatever reason, airline A or airline B decides not to do sale-leasebacks, then that supply of airplanes dries up. In that case, those lessors then may be forced to, if they want to keep growing, they would be forced to go to other lessors and maybe make portfolio purchases. So there are other ways for them to get access to airplanes. But for us, this has always been our focus, and it, you know, as we like to say, in good times airlines need our order book in bad times, they need our balance sheet. That's kind of the way we describe the ALC situation. Alok: That’s a great analogy, Kishore. Can you explain that a little bit? What you mean by that? Kishore: So, with respect to the first part, which is where the, you know, about the airlines leading our order book, because we are often the launch customers for a particular airplane model, we get early access to the early delivery positions. And very often, and that's where the strategic advantage comes in. We have very often been able to secure delivery positions for airplanes, which are sold out for years. You know, if you go to Airbus today and say years, you know, I have, you know, a zillion dollars, but I wanna buy, you know, some 321 Neos. Airbus will say, that's wonderful, but, you know, wait for another five, six years. That's where the, you know, that's the back of the queue. Whereas we have, by virtue of being a launch customer, as I said, we launch customer for the 321 Neo and Neo LR, the XLR, we have early positions. So even if people might have the money, they might not still not be able to get those positions and they will have to come to a lessor, like ALC or, you know, and some other order book lessor and to get access to those positions. So that's what I mean by, you know, in good times they need our order book. In bad times, they need our balance sheet because, we, again, one of the key aims for us is to build a fortress balance sheet. Obviously, airplanes are not cheap, but we also want to diversify the risk in funding sources. That's why, as I mentioned earlier, we, you know, have a bank group, and that's in excess of, 50 banks and that's just one part of it. We are an investment-grade company. We raise bonds on Wall Street. And we focus on unsecured lending. So what we are doing is financing ALC as a company as opposed to financing each airplane on an individual basis. And that gives us a lot more flexibility to help airlines, in terms of their specific needs, in, you know, in bad times airlines need that kind of support, from the lessors. And, you know, Covid has shown that the lessors significantly helped their customers, and that's where the second part of my statement comes into sway. Alok: That’s, very well explained. Thank you. And, I think one other piece of this whole puzzle is that that allows basically airlines who are focused on a certain aircraft type on their operating model to avail your order book and launch those unique business models. If they're uniquely focused on a, like you're saying, the new tech is more ESG compliant or has more fuel efficiency, that then allows them access to those, that kind of technology more easily rather than waiting in the queue for a few years, you know? And, that’s, yeah. Kishore: Oh, absolutely. And, it's not just waiting in the queue. There, there are airlines that don't have the financial strength to buy, you know, a hundred planes. There are startups that we have helped to support, which have now grown to being huge airlines. But they started out with, you know, two airplanes, three airplanes, four airplanes, And for airlines who don't have the strength, financial strength of a British Airways or Air France, leasing becomes really the way to enter, you know, the aviation industry that they won't otherwise be able to launch if leasing wasn't there because, the residual value risk, the, you know, the cash outflows that you would, have if you were to actually buy a plane, would go away if you are just leasing it from somebody like us. Alok: A lot is happening and a lot more needs to happen, but a lot is already taking place. And, there are two topics which are of interest to me. First one is obviously the order book, the big orders getting placed, and, do you from a leasing, from a leasing industry perspective, how is India viewed now compared to what it was 10 years back, and especially after this recent order has come out, what is the perception and, what are the opportunities, if you can maybe add on that? Kishore: I think it's, safe to say that India is viewed, positively, by the leasing community.  And, and the proof is in, let's just take Indigo for example. You know, they have been, leading the sale-leaseback model now for a few years, and, clearly, they don't seem to have any major difficulty in attracting people to, you know, do the sales leasebacks. They keep on happening on the flip side to keep the lessor engaged, to keep the lessors interested. The airlines also have to then do their part in terms of performing under their leases. So, you know, it's a good win-win situation for both. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, once we say, oh, this airline is performing under leases, then more people are interested in doing sales leasebacks and, and so on and so forth. So I think the perception certainly has improved since the Kingfisher days. But at the end of the day, the, you know, God forbid there's another, you know, airline failure, but the proof of the pudding will be also in terms of how, It would all pan out if in case, an airline runs into trouble. Because that also factors into, you know, the risk assessment that the credit committees at these different lessors will engage in. Alok: Little bit of history. Obviously, Spice Jet came into a bit of trouble 2013-14 and then Jet Airways, we know went belly-up 2017-18. My experience as an asset manager in this region is that Jet Airways was far better managed from a regulation and regulatory perspective. Not trying to divert, but I know Cape Town, India is a signatory, but the Cape Town Convention Act has still not been enacted in our law, as is going on. I am aware that it is under review and it'll be enacted soon, but, you are right that things have improved, but it'll only be as good as let us see what happens next. And, you know, the other area, which I think, again, you are very close to it possibly because of your links in India and the market, you know, what is Indian government doing, gift IFF a city. India is trying to create an ecosystem where aircraft leasing can be enabled from the Indian soil. So, you know, the Indian business, space very well. Plus you are a lessor sitting, thousands of miles away in LA in US. So you are in a very unique position, personally, I think, and your perspective will really matter, you know? Kishore: I think, you know, on the whole, these, these efforts are, are positive. Certainly, it's a recognition that, the government, sees that leasing is a big part of the aviation industry today, and should get the recognition it deserves. So it's nice to see that the government is trying to take steps to enhance and develop a leasing, you know, environment in India. Looking at, the issue from outside the country, I know people have spoken to me expressing concern about whether this would change if the next government comes in, you know, unfortunately, whether we like it or not, we still have the, you know, the legacy that, you know, cases like, you know, the Vodafone tax case have left and, and people look at those kinds of situations and say well, How do I, how will I be assured of certainty in terms of these policies staying the way they are today. Investors need that continuity, they need the reassurance that things will not change because a new government comes into, you know, into power, because that also obviously affects people's, decision-making, and the lack of certainty, or continuity plays into, you know, the risk assessment that I think, people from outside the country will, will engage in. So I think the reassurance or, or that, that, things will not change, and you know, if there are policies that are announced today, those policies will continue. Those are the kinds of things I think investors from abroad will look at.Alok: Can I just, go a little deeper into this? The government has actually created Indian government, I mean, the IFSC, which is effectively a special economic zone for financial services, you know. And, they're creating this, they've created a different of sandbox, a number of sandbox environments for different industries. One of them is aircraft leasing, obviously. What you just said is extremely valid from an outside investor's perspective. I'm just wondering that, what from your point of view would you like to see happening to put those concerns at rest? Is there something which can be done, which you feel will go a long way in giving a right message in putting some of these concerns to rest? Okay. That gives assurance, because the only other way I see it is, time will pass and somebody will take a bet and set up, but that's like a slow organic process, right? But is there something you feel which can be done from a rule-making perspective or from leg legislation or anything else which you feel, which will allay some of these concerns? Kishore: Well, I don't know if there's a magic, silver bullet, you know, that solves the issue. I think it's a collection of different data points that people will look at. I mean, for starters, you mentioned Cape Town. You know, the concept of Cape Town has been around for more than 10 years now, and we are yet to sort of go through the entire process. We are getting there, but, you know, that for starters would be, I think something that is, you know, low-hanging fruit. Then on, on a broader level, I guess people will look at how, and, when I say this, I'm not talking of only aviation, even outside of aviation, how these, different tax laws, rules, et cetera, are being implemented, honoured, and that all feeds into what opinions people will form about, you know, the aircraft leasing space particularly it, it specifically in India. So. It's basically, I don't think an issue of one particular thing solving the, it's sort of a nationwide perception, that people will basically be looking at. Alok: I mean, one of the things, like our company, we operate from Ireland and India and a couple of other countries. One of the things which I try to tell all the time when I am talking to the, you know, policymakers, which I must say there is, the access to policymakers, by the way, has improved a lot over the last few years in India. But when we talk to them, one of the things which I emphasise upon is that we need to move to a trust-based system than a mistrust-based system. One of the challenges I see as a business owner is that India still has that mindset of making rules to catch things rather than making rules to enable things. And it's a fine line, but I see that difference firsthand because I operate in Ireland and US, and I see how rules are enabled or business environment is enabled there. And I think I'm just trying to summarise what you just said. I think that is the part of that problem, is changing, but it's changing quite slow. Kishore: Yes, you're absolutely right. I mean, that's a very valid point. It's a mindset that has to change. And that's why it takes time. And that's why I say there's no one thing that needs to be done. It's a mindset shift that has to happen. And the countries that are enablers in terms of helping businesses get off the ground, rather than restricting them, are the ones that you find, companies gravitating to.Alok: Okay. So this is the IFSC piece and all, and the Indian market I'm assuming as a lesser community, as you already mentioned, is quite bullish on Indian market now because of the obvious order book and everything. Now, overall in the industry, you know, this is a question maybe I would not have asked few years back, but now it is a question which has to be asked where pre-pandemic and post-pandemic, as, you know, firsthand participant, I see differences in what we do. But, what I want to understand is what are the visible differences which you see now in the industry in the way it operates? Has there been any shift? Has there been any pivot in the way of operating or the business model? Not getting into the challenges which pandemic threw, because we all ha know those challenges. We have already spoken enough about it, heard enough about it, but where do you see the shift? Is there a way which you're operating now as a lessor or as the industry operating in a different way than now post-pandemic. Kishore: Well, speaking for ALC, I don't think we have drastically changed really our way of doing business post-pandemic. The pandemic for sure has highlighted the importance of cargo. Clearly, the airlines that did well during the pandemic were the ones that had large cargo operations. So there were airlines, people are surprised to hear there are airlines that actually made profits during the pandemic, but their cargo operations sustained them. But that's more on the airline operating side. But as far as the lessors themselves are concerned, and as I said, for ALC, I don't think we have really changed our business model in any, you know, big way. I think if anything, what the pandemic did for us was positive in that it reinforced the need for the newer airplanes because the first victims of the pandemic in the airline fleets were the oldest airplanes. Airlines wanted to retire, the oldest, the most fuel-guzzling airplanes. And so from, you know, ALC's perspective, it actually helped us because now the focus was even more on getting new airplanes, In Europe, when airlines were bailed out by the governments, they were often, the bailouts were, were tied to, specific environmental goals being achieved. So they were contingent on environmentally friendly policies going forward into the future, they extracted that from the airlines. I can give you, you know, an example where we had a European airline that flew Boeing 737 800s as well as 737 maxes, and we had leased them maxes and the airline had never flown to Heathrow and they wanted to fly to Heathrow because now you know, slots were available since airlines weren't using all their slots. And Heathrow said something very interesting. Heathrow said, okay, we will give you the slot, but you can't fly the 800. You need to fly your max. Because of the environmental, you know, the environmental issues. Alok: Wow. Kishore: So this is an example where, not just governments, but even the other players in the industry, like the airports who have, you know, leverage, are exerting their muscle in terms of these environmental issues. And so for us, it actually was more beneficial because of our model of focusing on the latest new generation airplanes. So in that sense, We are not complaining. Alok: And I, yeah. And if I may say, so one thing, am I right in understanding this? One of the challenges which has happened post-pandemic is production line, right? We are all hearing about production line challenges, unavailability of airplanes, unavailability of slots. So I'm just drawing a conclusion, that basically means, an order book lessor, which, I love that term by the way order book lessor, like ALC is in a very good spot now, you know, if I may, looks like that because you have the order book, as you were saying, that you're not dependent on the airline order book, so that means a lot of airlines who need airplanes, you are able to help them today in that sense, right? Kishore: Absolutely. Alok: Yeah. Kishore: And these are airlines that can otherwise afford airplanes, can otherwise, you know, order these airplanes on their own. I'll give you an example.  Air Canada, a year ago, signed up for 15  A321 Neo XLRs, from us. And these will deliver, you know, still it's a few years before they will deliver, but they are, even these big airlines like Air Canada are coming to us because we have the airplanes that they need for the future. And, we are the ones who have the earliest positions. Try to go outside your comfort zone. It's very easy to be comfortable and not wanting to step out. But the learning or the real fun experiences happen when you step out of those, perhaps artificial boundaries you might have created. And it doesn't necessarily have to be just professional even socially, I think one of the biggest and best experiences educationally for me when I came to the US was actually not the actual content of, you know, the course, the syllabus. I came to university, and I had people from 33 countries in my class. And for the first time, you know, coming from India, I'd always had a relatively sheltered, you know, experience. I had to learn to deal with all these different people, and I realised it was such an eye-opener for me that everybody thought differently based on where they came from. So, you know, when an assignment was handed out, and I, and I'm stereotyping it, but that was how it was. The German and Swiss guys would immediately start working on the assignment. The Argentinian, my Argentinian friend, all he wanted to know was when we were gonna play football. You know, my French colleague wanted to go out and have a smoke and..Alok: And what about you? What about you?Kishore: And I was just kind of caught in between trying to figure out how do I make these people work as a team and get this project done. It has served me well in my job because my job is a big global job and it helps me and I'm discussing a deal with, an airline and particular country. Even if I don't understand the nuances of, all the nuances of the culture, at least I know there are differences and I have to be sensitive, and, and deal with them in a particular way, as opposed to one size fits all. So every deal I do, I have to customise in a way my approach based on the country I'm dealing with. And I think that lesson from, you know, early on, on day one in the US has really served to be very useful. So it is a long-winded way of saying, you know, go out and don't restrict yourself because familiarity is very easy, you know, it's very comfortable. And unfortunately even in the US, I regret to admit we have a lot of Indian folks who do not mingle outside their Indian community. And in fact, there's enough Indians here where some of them don't even mingle outside people, you know, mingle people outside their state. You know, you have the Maharashtrians with the Maharashtrians only, and the Keralites, you know, it's a fact. And as funny as it maybe, you see what I'm saying? Alok: Yeah. Yeah.Kishore: And that doesn't help you, if you're looking at a global job, in global industry like ours, you know, you deal with people all the world you know. Alok: Yeah. Kishore: I’m sure you've seen the same thing. It's important for us to push ourselves. For some of us it may be more difficult than. But, to have that exposure and, you know, it's, it's a wonderful world out there and it's up to us to take the initiative to know more about it. Alok: Yeah, I, I think that is very, very good, what we have just explained and everybody wanting to get into, sales, I would say not just innovation, leasing should listen to this.Because that is what ultimately good salesmanship is also all about, you know, to listen to your customer and to understand their requirements. But you can only do that when you empathise with their background, where they come from and what they're looking for. And I think that's what makes you so successful also, I think. Sure. That's what I honestly feel. That's really great. Kishore: I think it's the empathy and the other thing, if you're talking about sales, I would say would be earning people’s trust. And by that I don't mean being a yes man. I think, if your customers see you as a trusted advisor, that means you give them good news, you give them bad news. People ask me about, you know, airplanes and ALC has pretty much every airplane type available. So I can lease, you know, if somebody says I want airplane type A, I'll give it to them. But my first question usually is, well, what are you gonna use the airplane for? Is this the right airplane for you? And there have been times when I've had to tell them, well, I'm not really sure I agree with what you're trying to do. You know, maybe this other type might be the better one for you. I mean, you think about it, they analyse it. But building that trust is also important. And sometimes that means saying no. Alok: It’s interesting you mentioned that. Yeah. I've had similar experiences. Yes. And I know what you mean. That basically brings you closer to your customers, by just being honest and transparent and giving them the best advice for their business. Yes. Kishore: Exactly. Alok: I agree. We are reaching the very end of, this conversation. I've taken a lot of your time, Kishore. Thank you very much once more. I wanted to ask you couple of things which I know, the audience we have will like to hear. How do you, what do you say or what is your guiding principle when you, if you have to say to somebody who's trying to enter the industry, an executive, a new, a young girl or a young boy who's trying to get their foothold in the industry, you know, what advice do you have for them? I wanted to know if any challenges have been thrown in your company’s way. You have explained the business model but from a human resource perspective. We have heard a lot of human resource labor-related issues in supply chains, right? In OEMs, in MROs, in airlines also. As a company, have you or is the industry, have you heard any noise about that or have you faced any such challenges where you're finding it difficult or different, the people's expectations are now different as they're coming back to work? Or have you, you're seeing everything is the same. Kishore: We have made some changes in the way we do things. We have a hybrid, work week now, where we have, you know, we can spend a couple of days at home, and, and then we have some days in the office. I think that is the way the world seems to be going. And, we have to keep up with the times. The question though, which I have for, you know, the young folks, and we see this, not just in people we interview, but I’ve heard about this from my peers in the industry. The young folks, when they interview or when they're looking for job opportunities, the hybrid works schedule, for example, is the question that probably comes up either number one or number two in, in the conversation. And while I think certainly there are benefits, and this is just my personal view, you know, not ALC's view. While there, there are certainly benefits to a hybrid work model and, and I'll be the first one to say that I enjoy my hybrid workday workweek because, I have a long commute and the two days at home, do add actually to my productivity. So I think certainly there is, a lot to be said for the benefits. But as when we focus on, since your question is about the young folks, I do wonder, and I don't have the answer to this, but I, one of the questions I would like them to think about, is, in terms of, the company culture, when they join a new company, how do they see themselves integrating into and absorbing, a company culture, especially when it's a unique one? We at ALC like to think that our culture is very unique. So how does through the assimilate into the company, that's number one. And number two is the benefit of just the tribal knowledge of dealing with the more senior people, sharing their experiences, a lot of that happens in very casual hallway conversations you know. I learned a lot, just going, you know, in my career going just for lunch with people from other departments and just talking casually about what's going on and you learn so much about what issues are, ongoing, how they're being solved, and you really broaden your breadth of knowledge by absorbing all these experiences from the senior folks, that you're just having a very casual conversation with. And, so from a career perspective for the young folks, perhaps one question they should be asking themselves is also, how do I enhance my skillset? How do I further my career? And when I say further the career you are also talking about mentorships and things like that. And that's, I feel, happens best when you have a face-to-face interaction. You can't really do that over zoom or teams. So I think a balance needs to be struck. And when people are overly focused on, oh, how many days is this company gonna let me work from home? I would encourage them to think of these other things because they directly affect their careers. It doesn't affect my career, you know, because they have to integrate into a new company. They have to learn about the company, get to know the people, get to know their experiences, and. My personal view again is that there should be, you know, you can't forget that aspect of, of this new hybrid work culture and, and you can't just have the pendulum swing entirely to a work from home. Now, of course, I'm generalising it, I'm talking specifically about our industry. There could be very well industries where you don't need to do that. You can, if you're programming something, maybe, yeah, five days a week at home is fine. But, I'm just talking from my life experiences and my career experiences and I would encourage the young generation to ask those questions or think about those questions because ultimately it benefits them, you know, in terms of their learning and, and career progression. Alok: It's a very good point. Kishore: So that would be, you know, my, take on the post-Covid developments. And as far as advice to people, you know, I, you know, it sounds like a cliche, but really love what you do. That is really, really important. All of us, including you, you know,  we work really hard. There is no free lunch. And so it's really, really important to love what you're doing. Cause otherwise we'd be miserable. So it's a cliche, but I think that's one. The other one, and that was sort of part of my life experience as I mentioned earlier, you know, don't be afraid to take a chance. You never know where it can lead. One of the good things about America, America is not perfect, but, one of the good things about America, I think is this fact that failure is not frowned upon. It's not a stigma. It is a, that the DNA, generally is about, hey, trying something. If it fails, it fails. You go on to the next thing, pick yourself up and go forward. But the pioneering entrepreneurial spirit, I think that exists in this country, and I know, you know, I grew up in India. It's very different than what I grew up with. So I would encourage people to take that chance and, and you never know where it leads. And of course, yeah. Alok: Yeah. Yeah. Kishore: It’s obviously within reason. I mean, robbing a bank is not what I'm talking about, you know, but, within obviously reasonable, boundaries, you don't want to have those regrets. Alok: I know we have taken, we have gone over. And, I'm assuming you are working in hybrid mode today? Work from home Kishore: Yes. Alok: Yes. So you're not making you late. No traffic.Kishore: No, no, no. And with you, it's always a pleasure to have, these chats. Alok: Anything you want to say as a final message? Would love to hear that. Kishore: Well, the, the final message really is to really thank you, for this idea and, you know, for, taking the effort because it involves a lot of your time and commitment, to, you know, go find, people like me to talk. And you are trying, I really applaud you for bringing aviation a little closer to, you know, the folks, especially in India who are perhaps looking at aviation as a career but don't know too much about it. That there's so many different aspects to aviation and, you are playing an oversized role in helping the next generation, you know, make their decisions about what kind of careers they want to pursue. And certainly, I think, the young generation in India, owes that to you.Alok: Okay. Kishore, thank you very much for your time, much appreciated. And, I have the habit of shaking my hands still in this kind of calls. Kishore: Yes. Alok: So that's why I'm saying thank you very much, for giving us so much time and your insights, and I'm sure when we go live with this, a lot of people will find it very useful. Thank you. Kishore: Well, that's just my, 2 cents as they say. And thank you again for the invite. It's always a pleasure, Alok, to talk to you, and, keep up the good work. So, take care.   Watch this episode here Produced & Distributed by Spooler www.spooler.in

Aviation entrepreneur Alok Anand explores what makes leasing businesses tick. In this episode of Flightpath with Alok, we hear from Hank Gibson, president of Regional One, a purchaser, lessor, and seller of aircraft, aircraft parts, engines, and engine parts, worldwide. Hank has been with Regional One since 2012 and has been prominent in the industry for over 30 years, holding multiple executive management positions in global sales and marketing, business development, and strategic planning. Hank has a background in finance having worked for financial services companies in New York and holds a BS in Finance from Florida Southern College, as well as a plethora of postgraduate management education programs. Hank speaks with Alok about why he left Wall Street for the world of aviation, he shares some of the successes and insights he has picked up through the course of his varied and interesting career and why those just starting out on their career paths may benefit from giving aviation a look. Transcript: Hank: There's an old saying on Wall Street, you can't fight the tape, right? And this goes back to the old analogy of a ticker tape. Details matter. One of the things that I've learned, having the opportunity to live in Singapore is that there is life and opportunity outside of the US. There's a distinct difference between, typically between the i-stat appraiser, and appraisers that are looking at aircraft versus parts. There's this saying, you know, do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life. And I have that luxury, right? I love aviation. It's a challenge for all of us to get young people to understand that there's more to aviation than being a pilot or an engineer. Alok: Welcome to the Flightpath with me, Alok. I am gonna start with a small story, you know, to introduce Hank, and I know Hank, you're gonna laugh on this, but this is a story I always remember when we first met, 2013, in India. And this is, you know, it's not every day we go through our career, our life, we get inspired, but something which happened, that eventful day for me, we were in Alliance share offices in India. Alliance was owned by Air India, at that time. Now Air India is sold, they have been in news for, good and bad reasons lately, and Alliance is still owned by the Government of India. I'm sure Hank remembers Air India very well. And, what I saw that day, we were trying to negotiate lease of some airplanes. And two gentlemen who had come in all the way from Miami. It was my actually very first time being in their presence, meeting them, being in the same room, and seeing a lease negotiation happening. It went on for the whole day. And you know, I thought sometimes maybe it's difficult deal, it won't work through, it won't happen. But I saw firsthand what a good negotiation is, a good salesmanship it, and how to get deals across. For me, as being an aviation entrepreneur, it was a great learning experience. And if I have to just capture it in one line, my favorite line from that day, which I will say is that if the door is closed, open the window and if the window is closed, make a hole in the wall. And if that is closed, come through the ceiling.  And it gives me great pleasure to, you know, welcome, for this very first episode of the Flight Path with Mr. Alok, my dear friend, Mr. Hank Gibson, the president of Regional One who was there with me that day. Hank, I'm sure you remember this story well. Welcome to the show. Hank: Yes, of course. Thank you, Alok. Appreciate that memory and certainly, that is a,  you know, the start of our long personal and professional relationship. So I remember that story vividly um, always enjoy going to India, but I certainly remember that negotiation and meeting you like yesterday. Yea, it was fun. Alok: I still laugh about it, man. It was fun. If you can maybe tell me a little bit about your early career. I know that you were in Wall Street earlier, then you moved on to Volvo Air Services and then now you are in Regional One for last many years. If you can tell us a little bit, you know, about your career, a bit about your career growth, where you started, what was your early days like and what got you into aviation from Wall Street? You know, that is, I think a very interesting bit.  Hank: Yeah. Thank you, Alok. Yeah, it's an interesting story and you know, I've had the opportunity to meet a lot of young people as we started an initiative at Regional one called Regional One University, and trying to get young people to keep an open mind. A lot of young people think they wanna be a doctor or a lawyer or do certain things, and in some cases that holds true. But I think I'm living proof of keeping an open mind and letting, you know, life's journey take you down a path of opportunity. My dream as a college student was to work on Wall Street. And when I graduated with a degree in finance, I did, in fact, go to work on Wall Street for a number of years and I enjoyed the enthusiasm of the trading and every day the bell rings and there's a new opportunity and, you know, the bell closes at the end of the day and it's just an exhilarating experience. And I think the collaboration of people, technology, and data, really resonated with me, for different reasons. I made the decision to, what I thought was temporarily leave Wall Street. I opened a restaurant in New York and then was getting married and was trying to decide exactly what I would do next. And I've had a desire to potentially attend law school. So I started negotiating contracts for a company in New York, which led to an introduction to an aviation company that happened to be moving from New York to Florida. So my wife and I, you know, closed up our brand new house. We had just gotten married, built a new house in New York, made what we thought was a temporary journey to Boca Raton, Florida. Within a couple of months, I ended up in Singapore. One of our competitors for the aviation company that I was doing some work with poached our entire office. So at a very early age, I had the opportunity to move from the US to Singapore, which was meant to be a temporary relocation. Ended up being five years. And I really just loved the culture, the people. Living in Asia changed my life in so many ways and gave me an opportunity to get exposed to aviation, outside of the contract and legal capacity. Ultimately made my way back to Boca Raton, and took a senior position within Volvo. And then, you know, kind of led my path to, ultimately to Regional One. So it's about collaboration and interestingly, you know, I talk a lot with our board about my background on Wall Street and taking that lessons of collaboration and data and understanding the need for people to interact in, in the way that we manage our business. So there's a lot of dynamics and I use a lot of analogies to the Wall Street trading to drive our team and get them to understand exactly how our business works, the combination of parts versus leasing versus trading. So the background has given me a great foundation to establish and grow Regional One under those parameters. Alok: Yeah, I've, I've seen it firsthand in my dealings with you, the emphasis on analytics and how data can help. And we'll talk a little bit about what Regional One does, obviously, and how you bring in value into the how the business is a little different than what we have seen traditional leasing companies do, you know? But, you know, there is another aspect, which I want to highlight on with your permission, which is, here's the thing, you know, you and I speak, on calls every now and then, and a lot of times we have had these early morning calls with you, early morning for you, 3.30, 4 o'clock. And for those of you know, the people who are listening maybe who don't know when I've had those calls with Hank and I've asked you, Hank, what are you doing? And he's actually in the kitchen sometimes packing lunch or packing breakfast for his kids. Or maybe, I think I'm talking about a few years back, you remember that you were in the kitchen, preparing food and I was like, wow, this is like, I mean, from where I come from, you, I, and, I try and do that now, but I, I must admit part of it is because I've seen, or I've firsthand had the, you know, experience of when I, you are one of those people whom I'm inspired, inspired from, you know. And, and you know, it'll be great to know what, what role family, plays in your life because I'm sure it, it is a central role there and it would be great to know your thoughts on that, you know?  Hank: Yeah. It's interesting, Alok, you know, you, you go through life and one of the things that I've learned, having the opportunity to live in Singapore is that there is life and opportunity outside of the US right? And there's different cultures, and different time zones . So when I was in Singapore, and this was, you know, kind of pre this type of video call or podcasts, you know, it was a much more, you know, cell phones were just coming out. This was in the late eighties, early nineties. So it was a slightly different environment. But you know, I realized, I didn't have a lot of experience in aviation at the time, and I had to make that up by building relationships and really learning. I mean, the way for me to learn and piece that puzzle together was get on the phone and just talk and listen. Listen to what customers had to say, listen to what the industry was doing. So it's really been a foundation of my style, right, which is just getting on the. And making sure that I am courteous to other people's time zone and hours and cultures. So, you know, again, that resonated back and transitioned back to when I moved back to the US I get up very early and start working the phones in Asia. A lot of my contacts in relationships that I've developed, start my working my way back to Europe. So by the time, most typical, you know, US East Coast people are starting their work. I'm well into my day.  So I look at it as a competitive advantage. What's happened, you know, in the last few years is technology has been able to allow me to have that work-life balance, you know, and we're not in a nine-to-five type of environment. There's certainly some positions in the company.  that can do that. And I recognize that the, you know, the sacrifices that I've made in terms of, you know, working those hours, is probably in some cases not for everyone. But I think that there is an ability in this modern world to create that balance, where you have the discipline of being able to fit family in. Because for me, I, you know, honestly, I don't have much of a social life outside of, you know, my responsibilities of work and my family. So I have three very great kids, to your point earlier, they're outta the house now, so I don't get the luxury of making them breakfast literally every morning. So when I wasn't travelling and was not on the road, that was a responsibility that I enjoyed having the pleasure of making my children breakfast every morning. And that was kind of our family time. And, you know, I'm blessed with three great kids, a great wife, and a great family, and it certainly gives me good balance to the sacrifices that I've made to build Regional One and build a career. Alok: Awesome. You call it a luxury, you know,  I must say that that's true. And, I wonder too, in our line of work if there is something called a work-life balance. But you're right, technology has enabled it to a large extent and possibly it has been accelerated, since the pandemic hit, people adapted. Some of the meetings we sometimes do in person maybe could have been video calls. That's what you realize now.  Hank: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And you know when, when the pandemic first hit and teams and Zoom started getting tracks, and not that I was resistant to it, but I was a creature of habit. So I, you know, intuitively would just pick up the phone and, and talk to people. Or I would dial into a video conference and just be on audio. And, once I got comfortable with it, like this call where I can see you, it's, it's, it's not the same as being face-to-face and not, you know, the same of being in each other's presence. But it's pretty effective. Right. And we've had a difficulty in getting other people to embrace it and, you know, this is kind of a new initiative for me at Regional One. We've just shifted our trading floor further north of Miami and consolidating a couple of offices. But I think whether you're in Nashville, Tennessee, or Bangalore, getting on a video call is not the same, but it's, it's, it's pretty good, right? And we're trying to get people to break the habit that I had to break, which was not just rely on audio, but get on the phone and see people's body language and their facial expressions and emotions, in a way that you can't on an audio call.  Alok: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna move on a little bit to talk about Regional One here, and obviously you're the best person to tell us about what Regional One does and what is the business. But just to open as an intro for that Regional One is an aircraft lessor.  They deal in regional jets. They're also a very active parts trader, and they provide end-to-end solutions to their customers worldwide on that. But Hank, it'd be great to know from you a little bit more. Because I have a few follow-up questions as you can imagine on that, you know? Hank: Yeah, no, you did a great job introducing Regional One, but I'll add a little more colour. We are, you know, typically focused on the 50, 70, 90 seat turboprop and regional jet market. We literally kind of fly under the radar. I often, you know, think about questions we get from analysts on earnings calls or from our board about competitors. And you know, when you look at the top, typical financier lessors, we're not in that market. We're not making a small spread over the cost of capital, looking at seven or 10 year leases, you know, our tax plays and that sort of thing. You know, thinking about my background, we are asset managers, we're portfolio managers. So we certainly have a large lease portfolio. We've got over 60 aircraft in our portfolio, and another 50 on the receiving line of commitments that we've made over the next couple of years. A very large engine portfolio as well. So in many ways, we appear to be a typical lessor. But in fact, we are more of an asset manager. You know, I meet with my team every Wednesday. We go through our entire fleet. It's very dynamic. You know, we're trading, buying, selling, moving engines, extending the life of assets, , really managing the interface with our customers and the maximization of value in our portfolio while at the same time trying to avoid expensive shop visits or expensive maintenance visit. So we have three primary revenue sources, parts leasing, and trading. Over the course of a typical cycle, you know, whether that's a, you know, a month, a quarter, or a year, there is some choppiness to it, but interestingly it, and generally becomes a third, a third, or third. So obviously if we have, you know, a reduction in parts required for a certain product line to tear down, we'll accelerate the teardown of an aircraft and put that in the parts revenue to keep that kind of balance of how we're generat generating revenue and managing our portfolio in that way. So again, you know, we talked recently about the I STAT conference coming up. There'll be a lot of typical banks and less orgs there. And then there'll be Regional One, you know, flying under the radar, looking for opportunities to buy and looking for opportunities to maximize our portfolio. But we're a little, little unique to a typical lessor. Alok: I remember you telling me that sometimes you said, look, we buy airplanes, or we buy assets and we don't even take delivery and we trade them and we make returns from them. That's our business. And that, you know, it'll be great  to draw an analogy that sounds like stock trading, to a certain extent. Right. So I just wonder if that is the business model as such, or is that something which you brought in, into the business as a value from your background? Hank: Yeah, it's, again, it's an interesting observation, right? And I, to kind of go back to some of the analogies to Wall Street, there's an old saying on Wall Street, you can't fight the tape, right? And this goes back to the old analogy of a ticker tape, right? The trend of what's happening in the market, you can't fight it, right? If there's more buyers than sellers, prices are going up. If there's more sellers than buyers, prices are going down. Like no individual or no market maker can really buck that trend, right? Generally speaking, you can't fight the tape. So I use that analogy when we buy assets, right, and I'll use the most recent one. We've made a commitment to buy 57 ERJ 140s from American Airlines. And we're taking roughly three to five aircraft a month over the next, um, several quarters. So as the market indicates what it will bear, whether we part it out for parts, whether we flip it and turn around and sell it, or whether we put it in our lease portfolio, that's a reaction to what the market will bear. We're not gonna fight that tape. I'm not gonna say, listen, I do job business case, I wanna lease all these aircraft and I'm committed to, the only way I can make money is to lease these aircraft. We buy generally in the money, meaning that we feel like every asset that we buy, I can make money even parting it out. So we're never buying assets that have some goodwill or some premium to it's age. You know, we're in that kind of 10, 12, 15-year range, where we try and maintain the discipline of being in the money to give me that flexibility of monetizing it in multiple ways. I don't want to be, you know, again, a typical leasing company where we're committed to only generate lease revenue in order to depreciate an asset over a period of time in order to make money. So much different profile in how we manage our portfolio than most lessors.  Alok: Right, right, right. So the return cycles are shorter, obviously, in that case compared  Hank: Exactly.  Alok: to a typical lessor, so, right,  Hank: Exactly. And we're, you know, we're trying to return, you know, get a return on capital quickly. Now we do have a portion of our portfolio that we've developed over the last few years where we've brought in financial partners that wanna be in the longer term investment space, and use the expertise of Regional One in order to do that. So we've developed a compliment to our typical asset base where we'll put in somewhere between five and 20% of equity with a larger investor in a newer asset on longer-term leases, and we'll manage that for a fee and then ultimately manage the asset at the end of that life cycle. So that's a complimentary vision as that Regional One has developed over the last couple of years. Alok: As a business has evolved, Regional One, you have been there for almost a decade now with Regional One, right? Or maybe longer I think. Right? And you know, one of the things we talk about sometimes and , is about how things have changed or how it's not in terms of just people but the industry, right? And there is this pandemic which happened and that made a big shift to the whole industry. But maybe we'll come to that in a few in a few minutes. But before that, you know, generally what, on a trend basis, what have you seen in terms of how the business has evolved from where you, where Regional One was and or the industry rather, you know, not necessarily just about Regional One, but from an industry perspective as an industry participant, what do you see? How things have evolved or changed?  and then maybe a little bit insights from you on where do you see this heading? You know the whole trend in the market on the trading side, part side, because it ties into a lot of other areas as, as you know.  Hank: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting question, Alok, right? Like obviously there's been an evolution like there always is a maturity of certain businesses. With that comes competition, right? You get on the radar. One of the reasons why we don't, as you know, do a lot of press releases, right, is we just bring attention to ourselves in things that we're doing. So we generally try to, but whether it's, you know, portfolio management, you know, records management, data technology, all of these tools continue to evolve. I think where some people get lost is their inability to adjust to that technology. And I'm a big believer in data. I think at the end of the day, everything that happens in terms of demand, can be boiled down to a data point. And if you're understand the data and accumulate, accumulate enough data, , you can start using that, you know, outside of the, just the general trading and the, you know, buy, sell of parts, for example.  Alok: Can I stop you there? Sorry. Sorry to interrupt you.  It'll be great. You know, if you can illustrate that with an example to us. There are two, two threads here. You did mention in the very beginning when we started speaking about for example, the technology we are using now to talk, and you said people resist. So there is a change management angle there, obviously, but , that, and you know, then the other pieces where you're talking about how you feel that data can be better utilized or data can drive. This is, we hear that all the time in, in God, we trust everyone else brings data. I think that is what, you're trying to say. But, I would, I would love to, you know, get a, a little illustration from you, an example, a real life example of how you told us about the trading of the assets. That'd be great to know how, how you feel the data has added value.  Hank: Yeah. I think in, in this industry, Alok, I think if you look at, you know, the barriers of entry to get into the parts business, for example, is, is really minimal, right? It's a, it's a self-regulated industry regarding the distribution of surplus spares. So, you know, we have large competitors, you know, that are public companies all the way down to one or two-man businesses, you know, littered around South Florida, they're all just kind of making a market in parts. And a lot of that is based on an individual that has personal knowledge of experience relative to a certain product line. So as businesses grow, and we went through this at Volvo, you have a series of individuals all with their Excel spreadsheets, all specialists in a certain product line. And as a company and as the president of Regional One, I never wanted to be victimized by having an individual or a specific person that's either managing our data, owning that data, or that's the only person getting the benefit of that data. So in order to scale this business and in order to take out some of, you know, potential misinterpretation of data points, we developed a proprietary system, at Regional One, and this methodology was a foundation of what I ultimately started at Volvo, but the advancement of technology has been able to bring it to life both dynamically and in the way that the data is managed, where any data we get-whether it's supply, demand data, pricing data, meantime between removal, repair cost- we're literally pouring that into our system-Nava- and allowing it to give us guidelines and give salespeople guidelines because, if the phone rings and a salesperson picks it up, and they go into Quantum, which is our E R P system, they have to make a series of decisions very quickly. When was the last time I sold it? Did I quote it but not sell it? How many do I have in stock? So they have to go through that waterfall of 20 questions. And what we learned is through that process is there was a lot of inconsistencies from individual to individual of what they might come to a conclusion of what that price should be sold. And what we've tried to do is use data to be able to allow that to happen a little bit more, consistently. And not be vulnerable to an Excel spreadsheet or an individual's ownership of that. And surprisingly enough, even though data has come a long way, there's people that look at me like I'm crazy, right? No. Everyone manages it. You know, in Excel or everyone has a product line person that they have to rely on or depend on. And for me, in order to grow the business, and in order to get the best benefit of that data, it has to be kind of an open system for all of our people to use.  Alok: That was, that was great, you know, what you've just shared on this because. As I was saying earlier, technology, there's a second threat for me, which is, for me, it is very close to my heart as you know. But, you know, interestingly enough as the leader, of the group, of the company, you know, what has been your biggest challenge when deploying technology? I don't want to hazard the guess, but, I think one of the challenges, possibly, maybe not the top one, but maybe none of the challenges always change management as which you alluded to earlier, how to get people to use it, whatever technology you're using, but how to get people to get on board because people are set in their habits. It's human nature, you know, to continue to work with what you're comfortable with.  And, so how, how have you handled that? How have you, apart from just saying do it else, and I know that doesn't work always. So how have you managed to overcome that challenge? Or you, how are you still overcoming it? Maybe. Hank: Yeah, it, it, I think that's an important characterization, right? Because I think it is a perpetual process. Change management is difficult. You know, I think back, you know, the customer management system, the CMS that they use, or Salesforce right in this industry is very difficult. Volvo always spent a lot of money implementing an SAP system that ultimately failed because salespeople felt threatened by giving up information regarding their customers. And in the aftermarket and in the space that we're in, right, we don't manufacture anything. It's, so everything that we do, every part is very unique. The trace, the paperwork, the history, the operating environment. And the relationships that salespeople have, that's their lifeline to their career, right? So, at Volvo, we actually failed in getting people to use it, and as a leader, you're often challenged, you know, the outcome of forcing a rainmaker to use a C M S system at the risk of him leaving the company, right? So at the end of the day you say, what have I won, you know, I've lost one of my great performers, one of my great producers, because I had a policy that we insisted on people using this technology. You know, if I look at Regional one, you know, the data management has been difficult because a lot of people want to retain that knowledge in their head about certain part numbers or, you know, they've been doing this for 20 years in Excel and they don't understand why, you know, you can't just continue to do Excel. And, it is a very difficult challenge. And for me, in my position as we've continued to grow the business, it is very challenging. Um, you know, and when we recruit people from other lessors, particularly, you know, more traditional, lessors, they often find it very awkward at Regional One because we, we do things differently. We move very quickly, you know, we don't have, you know, meetings a week or two weeks from now, we're, we're making decisions live. And it's not a comfortable environment for a lot of people, but, change management is difficult and the only way I can really characterize it is, it's important for me to stay engaged with the team and that collaboration on the trading floor, which is why it's important that everyone's together so they can understand the dynamics of that's something that's very difficult to do in a remote environment.  Alok: Fair enough. I think you have, you have told us as much as you can, so, you know, and you mentioned that business is different than a traditional lessor. Yes, it is definitely for you, it is different, and I think one of the, what Regional One does is they buy airplanes. There is an airplane, which is having a three-year lease remaining, and it's old enough to be a candidate for a part out, a disassembly of the aircraft, and then harvesting the parts right?  And how is that typically different? And if you have to classify that or benchmark it against a typical leasing arrangement, you know, you remember, you when, when you guys purchase, or even now when you do, you buy airplanes, which are already on lease from traditional lessers to airlines and, how they would've managed it typically, and then how you manage it in comparison, you know? Hank: Yeah. So you go back to the Alliance transaction that introduced us, Alok. You know, that was a classic arbitrage of negotiating. So we bought the four different aircraft from four different lessors that had aircraft unleashed to Alliance. And in each case, we negotiated compensation in lieu of redelivery, right? Because again, there's a benefit to both parties in this case, right? For Alliance to go through a very long and expensive redelivery process on those aircraft, to meet the redelivery conditions for us, it's more advantageous for us to accept compensation in lieu of those delivery conditions. And that does a couple of things, obviously gives us cash quickly. But it also gives us the flexibility of taking that aircraft to a maintenance facility and being able to put it into a maintenance profile that would meet our next customer's needs. So we would look at it in, in fact, in many cases, the Alliance aircraft, we took compensation, ferry the aircraft to a maintenance facility, put minimal maintenance into it, where we would take, you know, a fair amount of risk with a new operator or in a jurisdiction that created a lot of risk. It wouldn't make sense for us to buy a 10 million dollar regional jet, turn around and put that into a very risky jurisdiction. So by taking that redelivery compensation, we take it well below the kind of in-the-money threshold of being able to say, okay, here, if I can't find a lessee, then I can go ahead and part it out, take the engines, put the engines in a lease portfolio, lease the engines for a couple of years, and monetize the assets in a different way. So that's generally the arbitrage that we're, we're playing on each of the decisions that we're making to buy assets for our portfolio.  Alok: That's because you have this huge warehousing ability, you know, to keep. And, I think the network of vendors and maintenance providers to do that, right? That, yeah. That, that is a unique advantage. And a typical lesser, I assume, would not do that. They would, they would be just happy to sell the aircraft as they did in this case, as you said, the four lessers sold these airplanes to you, or they would look at just trading it to another lessor. The part-out is normally, though I do know that over the last few years, a lot of traditional lessors have started getting active in the part-out market now. What they're seeing is there is value to be realized on that front also, but it is still not to the scale, which I would assume Regional One does, you know. You guys are like kind of specialists in that extracting value of the aircraft.  Hank: Exactly. And, you know, we typically will buy assets that are, you have green time remaining on lease, you know, the arbitrage between, you know, taking redelivery comp, in lieu of redelivery conditions. You know, we've bought airframes from lessors, we've bought engines. So our model gives us the flexibility of buying a flyer, buying a lease return, buying green time months remaining if you've got a lessor that doesn't wanna be bothered with the process of taking an aircraft back on redelivery or the uncertainty of going through that process. So, you know, we've bought assets from lessors at the end of life, after they've been through redelivery. Just a number of ways that we can acquire assets to continue to feed the need for each of those three revenue sources.  Alok: So interestingly enough, the arbitrage you mentioned, which, which you, which is what the one of the things which works in your favor, or the way that you operate your business model, you know, that is tied very, I would say closely to how the asset is valued then. You know, I'm actually moving on to the green time piece one, which is something you and I have discussed, and I think it'll benefit if, are you okay to talk about that a bit? That what you have in your mind because I think it is important for the industry to hear, you know, what your thoughts are on, just to set up a little background on that. So airplanes are traditionally valued by appraisers. The appraiser community is largely part of the ISTAT, the International Society of Transport Aircraft Trading. International Society originated from US, it's a not-for-profit organization, and it trains kind of, I would not strictly say trains, but it provides guidance to industry professionals to become certified appraisers. And they have a certain defined criteria of how they want to value assets. , there are different definitions, and I know you feel very strongly about that, that that is not, first of all, not fulfilling the requirements, of aircraft investors and especially, it is not suitable for someone who is doing the business of acquiring green time aircraft and then parting them out to realize for the residual value, you know? So it'll be great to know what your theory is on this.  Hank: Yeah, that's a full question. We could probably do a separate podcast just on this piece. But I'll, I'll try and answer you. So to your point, right, this has been one of the areas where I've really tried to focus more recently and it kind of got accelerated with the covid initiative, right? Where I realized many years ago that there's a distinct difference between, typically between the ISTAT appraisers that are looking at aircraft versus parts. And there really wasn't this kind of middle-of-the-ground solution where you could understand the real dynamics of how green time is being managed particularly on a module-type engine. So if you look at the CF34-8, and more recently, the dash 10, these are module engines that, for us, gives us a lot of flexibility in terms of how we're managing our entire portfolio. So oftentimes, appraisers will take a value of an engine up to its first limitor. And then make some assumption of a residual based on the balance of that. We actually extend our process into the module level knowing that we can take each of the four or five modules and, and swap them across our portfolio. So what we've done when Covid hit, we've tried to mature this to the extent where we've created a modified value-in-use model that we're looking at some point to get hopefully endorsed or represented at ISTAT to get the industry to understand that kind of middle ground of how an asset really should be appraised because it even gets into the detail of the prior history of the asset, the environment that it operated in, the pedigree of the parts, the pedigree, and the standard of the repairs that were done. So for us, a residual on an engine or an airframe. Is much more complicated than what a typical appraisal will put on that particular value, you know, based on, you know, some generic introduction that they had with respect to that asset.  Alok: Let me pick up an example on that. Sorry to interrupt you there. Let me pick up an example. You know, so let's say an ATR 72 500 and it's, let us say 15, 20 years old. I would say typically it'll have a, from a, from a classical appraiser methodology, it'll have a value of around two, two and a half million depending on, I know the engines, the life remaining, the LLPs. But what you're saying is that Regional One would possibly be able to extract more value from that aircraft, and there should be a new methodology devised, which should address that extra value which can be extracted from the aircraft. Am I right? I'm just trying to simplify what you just said.  Hank: Yeah, yeah. I think you're on the right path, Alok. I think in this case, you know, using your example there, for us, the real value is dependent upon the history of that particular aircraft, right? Where it operated, what the pedigree of the service bulletins, all of the details that went into that aircraft. The last time it, had a shop visit, the extent of that shop visit, what kind of parts were used? Like the details matter right, to a very large extent. And what I have seen typically is that most appraisals that are done are more generic. It's more based on a, you know, a blue book value or an industry trend or some high level macro valuation metric. And you know, honestly, in some ways I wonder if the industry, really, you know, demands as much as I'd like it to, to get a proper appraisal done. Because typically these are used for purposes of financing and, and other reasons. And, you know, a more generic, appraisal may suit their needs more than I'd like. But I do think that details matter.  Alok: Yeah. I'm wanna press you a little bit on that. And, so let's say an ATR is valued at two, two and a half million. And given, let us say all the stars align, what value will Regional One extract out of it, be able to extract out of it? The best case scenario, let's say if you're comfortable sharing that, you know,  Hank: Yeah, it's, it's a difficult question, right? Because again, the details matter in terms of the pedigree of that specific asset, right? So generally what we have seen is that Regional One has been able to extract more value than typically would be represented in a more generic appraisal, right? Because again, we're getting down to the detail of each part number. And Nava, which is our database, gives us the ability to very quickly understand at the piece, part level exactly what we expect to happen with that particular asset. It's also complicated by the fact that we can actually use those parts for our portfolio, for our lease portfolio to build other aircraft. But generally speaking, what we're finding is that our analysis harvests more revenue and more value than what you would see in a typical appraisal.  Alok: Okay. Would you, don't gimme the number, but would you say it is you going to achieve one and a half times, twice? If, you know, forget about what the value is the number, but, in a comparison, in a scale on a percentage, what additional value can one expect? It's just interesting to know this because, you know, that then adds context to this whole green-time valuation debate. You know, that's why I'm just asking this.  Hank: Yeah, no, no. As tempting as it is, it's not possible for me to give you an answer because again, the details matter. But I think the, for us, the, the green time, you know, again, particularly for a module engine, because it makes it so much clearer where you have, you know, a typical valuator whether it's an appraiser or an asset management, you're just looking at it from, you know it's first limiter. And by the way, we never take a hundred percent of the valuation for any limiter. Like we'll take a factor of that to suggest that it's gonna be 80% or 90%. So if we take the first limiter on one of our CF 34s, and we'll take a value up to the first limiter of, you know, 90%, the second, third, fourth module, we may take 80%. And that factor that we use in our methodology is largely dependent upon the details of where that engine operated when its last shop visit was and the experience of knowing the likelihood of getting 80, 90, or a 100 percent from that particular module. So again, details matter. Take the ATR example, the prop blades, right, the life of the prop blades, the number of all alls they had, all of that is going to play a significant factor in what that two-and-a-half million dollar number would be in Regional One's view. Alok: Will that apply to us something like a CRJ as well?  Hank: Everything. There's very few exceptions where the, you know, the details don't matter. Alok: I have a few friends over there in Embry, and I'm sure they would be very interested to know this too. I know we have a few more minutes left, I know you're busy. I'm not gonna take too much time, but maybe a couple of more questions. One is, you know about the, not going into any of the cliches about the challenges we all had. And I'd use cliche with all respect that it has been heard so many times now, the pandemic, the problems we all had, and especially the aviation industry had in general. But if like for in my case, yesterday was when I was in a meeting with my board, one of the topics of discussion was the impact of the pandemic. You know, how, how we are seeing, in our case, customer behavior is evolving.  And it is, in my opinion, a long-lasting change which will have an impact. So in your case, specifically like Regional One, have you noticed anything which is, which is a pivot from pre covid to post covid or pre-pandemic to post-pandemic, which you think is, is worth noting?  Hank: Yeah, as we discussed earlier, Alok, the irony of, I had a board meeting yesterday as well. And one of the points that I made to our board was, you know, there's a lot of talk in the industry and we've had a lot of talk at our prior board meetings about the impact of covid to the industry and to our customers, and that sort of thing. And what we talk less about is the covid impact to Regional One internally, right? And I think there is, this hadn't been a trend obviously for people to work from home, for safety reasons and the uncertainty as to what, the pandemic meant and what, you know, what would be the outcome. And it's been difficult and challenging to get people to understand that that was, from my perspective, in the environment at Regional One, that was a temporary measure, it's not sustainable, right? Like there are some industries and some jobs and some capacity there you can work from home. And certainly, at Regional One, we give our employees that flexibility of having that ability to work from home when they need to or when it makes sense. But at the end of the day, our business model is based on collaboration and information. And if you think about, you know, any stereotypical Wall Street trading environment, that's what, that's what regional one is, right? It's, it's the open outcry, it's understanding information, it's being able to make decisions very quickly. So for us, the biggest challenge that I've had is convincing our employees, that there is a difference in that collaboration. There is a difference in communication and being together. And it's not that I don't want people to work from home, it's just that if, if that is a requirement for whatever reason, it just doesn't work in our industry in the way that Regional One is, is structured. Alok: So human resource challenge is the biggest shift you're seeing?  Hank: Hundred percent, a hundred percent.  Alok: Yeah. That's, that's a universal problem, kind of. You're right. Hank: Yeah. Honestly, for us, you know, COVID gave us an opportunity to acquire some great assets. You know, we had a situation where there was, you know, certain customers and airlines, that transitioned out of certain fleet types, consolidated their fleet types, which gave us the opportunity to buy. We did three various specific transactions during Covid, with the support of our board, and we did quite well on them being able to, you know, buy low, sell high, right? Again, that, you know, Wall Street analogy. So Covid in that way, we certainly had some challenges. You know, we had a number of customers that parked aircraft and didn't pay their lease payments. Like most lessors, we were patient and worked through it. You know, we didn't rush to foreclose and repossess aircraft. And in some ways, we're still working through the consequences of that piece. But the industry has recovered, you know, with the exception of the pilot shortage and maintenance backlogs and supply chain issues, right? The general flying public is returned to some normal stage now, and we just need to be prepared to take advantage of that. And for Regional One to thrive, we need a collaboration of people. We need people to understand the necessity to work together and create that collaborative environment. So that's been a challenge.  Alok: Right. Right. And if I can just ask one last question, someone let us say, someone starting their career now in the, and a lot of the next, or next to next generation I'm, I'm hoping we will be able to reach to them through this podcast the Flight Path. And, and I'm hoping that they will listen to it and they'll get inspired, obviously. But if you have one message to give to the, you know, the next generation coming in into this industry-aircraft leasing, financing, aviation, and I'm not talking about the class in the classic aviation sense of airlines, but this piece, you know, which we, we, you and I work in, what is one piece of advice you would like to give them, you know, so that they can, they can start on the right note and grow in their career. Hank: Yeah, it's a great question, Alok. I, um, as I alluded to earlier, right, I, I have spent a lot of time just because of my background and never in a million years expecting that I would be in aviation. So when I meet young people and I've started Regional One university, we've started internship programs working with the local universities here, and it, it's, it's a bit of a challenge, right? Cuz they show up thinking they want to be a pilot or an engineer. There's a lot of, you know, they just don't understand that you could be, you know, a finance modeling person, you could be a, you know, a repair facilitator. There's so many aspects of our industry that they haven't been exposed to. And one of the messages that I try and give young people is to keep an open mind. And as I meet people and bring them into the organization, you know, I try and, you know, tell them a, you know, a funny anecdote here about, you know, keeping an open mind and you know, not to isolate yourself if you know you think you want to be something. And there's this saying, you know, do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life. And I have that luxury, right? I love aviation. But if I hadn't been exposed to it, you know, at the age of, you know, 25, I would've thought, okay, here what I love is working on Wall Street. So I would've spent the rest of my life working on Wall Street and, and probably enjoyed it. But what Wall Street couldn't give me was the ability to work internationally and meet people like yourself that have become, you know, not only important business partners, but you know, personal friends. So the ability to use aviation in that dynamic way internationally, it's a great industry and, you know it's a challenge for all of us to get young people to understand that there's more to aviation than being a pilot or an engineer. Alok: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's great piece of advice, I would say, and I wish I can find a way to amplify that, you know, for everyone. That's really great. And you're right. And I for one, I'm glad that you moved on from Wall Street and you got into aviation because you know, as the dots connect, we met. Otherwise, maybe that would've never happened because I can't imagine myself ever doing anything to do with Wall Street except maybe invest into some funds once in a while. So it's great. , for me, I'm, I'm very fortunate personally in that sense. I agree. And that we met, you know, Hank. Thank you very much. On that note, you know what I would like to say is you've given me a lot of time today. Thank you very much for making time, morning. I think it was morning 9:00 AM when we started in Miami. Great. Thank you very, very much again for your time. And it was great. It was just amazing too. Is there any message you have, anything else you want to say? Hank: No, I just conclude it by saying thank you, Alok. I appreciate it. It's been enjoyable do this podcast. This is first for me. Alok: Same here. Hank: Look forward to hearing some of these subsequent issues and maybe someday we'll do it again. Look forward to it.  Alok: Yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Same for me. And thank you very much for your patience and your time today. Really, before we just switch off, just like to leave a message for our listeners, you know that if they like what they heard please do, please don't forget to subscribe, through whichever channel you're listening to. If you're on YouTube, please subscribe. If you're watching us on YouTube, please subscribe to it. And, watch out for the for the future episodes where we are going to go to the industry and talk to more executives and industry leaders and, and learn from them. I just wish to thank everyone for that. Thank you very much. END https://www.linkedin.com/in/hank-gibson-3b0b748https://in.linkedin.com/in/alokanand23 Watch this podcast here:https://www.youtube.com/@flightpathwithalok #assetmanagement #aviation #aircraftleasing #aviationfinance #flightpath #alok #flightpathwithalok Follow us: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alokanand23/ Video podcasts: https://www.youtube.com/flightpathwithalok Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flightpathwithalok Podcasts: https://linktr.ee/flightpathwithalok  Produced & Distributed by Spooler www.spooler.in