HAZARD CLASS

Jake sits down with one of the most revered names in the American fire service—Captain Mike Dugan. With over 40 years of firefighting experience, including a distinguished career with the FDNY and multiple valor awards, Captain Dugan shares a raw, heartfelt, and unfiltered look into the culture, brotherhood, and challenges of the fire service. From childhood inspiration to rooftop rescues, and from leadership lessons to life after 9/11, this conversation is a masterclass in service, humility, and integrity.
00:00 – Introduction
Jake introduces Captain Mike Dugan and highlights his 40+ year legacy in the fire service, including his FDNY tenure and national teaching contributions.
03:10 – Childhood Inspiration: The Fire That Started It All
Mike recounts the fire at his grandmother’s house that sparked his lifelong passion for firefighting.
08:50 – Growing Up Dugan
A glimpse into Mike’s upbringing in a big, loving Irish-Catholic family and the community values that shaped him.
15:00 – Entering the Fire Service & Early Days Volunteering
His transition from volunteer firefighter to NYPD officer, and ultimately joining FDNY.
23:00 – Academy Stories & First Assignments
A dive into his "sleep officer" training, first slow company assignment, and the career-defining transfer to Spanish Harlem.
34:10 – Firehouse Culture & Leadership Lessons
The importance of pride, ownership, and tradition in building elite fire companies.
43:30 – The Famous Roof Rope Rescue
A gripping retelling of the 1991 rooftop rescue that earned Mike high departmental honors and media attention.
57:00 – The Reality of Recognition
Navigating media attention, departmental politics (including the infamous “mustache incident”), and public recognition.
1:04:20 – From Firefighter to Officer
His decision to promote, lessons learned as a lieutenant and captain, and how to prepare others to lead.
1:15:00 – Morale, Accountability & Culture
Why company culture is built from within, and how great companies self-regulate and support each other.
1:25:00 – The Anatomy of a Great Firefighter
Heart, humility, and relentless curiosity—Mike defines what makes someone exceptional in this calling.
1:35:00 – Training for the Unthinkable
Why training for the 90% and the 1% are both vital—and how to make the most of your district time.
1:47:00 – 9/11 Reflections
An emotional segment on being at the FDNY training academy on 9/11 and losing close friends from the firehouse the day before.
1:55:00 – Legacy and Final Thoughts
Mike shares how the fire service continues to evolve and his hopes for future generations of firefighters.

Captain Mike Dugan is a retired FDNY firefighter and former captain of Ladder 123. He has received numerous awards for bravery and served as a national instructor and keynote speaker. Known for his integrity, mentorship, and practical leadership, he continues to shape the fire service through writing, teaching, and speaking.
Fire Engineering Profile

Notable Speech: FDIC 2011 Keynote: Why Are You Here?

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Battalion Chief Marc Aloan of the West Columbia Fire Department discusses his two-decade career in the fire service. From chasing fire trucks as a child to becoming a battalion chief, Marc reflects on his experiences, including the challenges, leadership lessons, and learning from mistakes along the way. He also shares insights into the role of education in his career, the value of hands-on firefighting, and how he navigates the complexities of leadership in the fire service.
0:00 - 1:49: Introduction to Battalion Chief Marc Aloan
Topic: Marc’s Early Fire Service Connection
Marc Aloan, Battalion Chief at West Columbia Fire Department, is introduced. He shares how he was drawn to the fire service at a young age, starting with his fascination with fire trucks and following them on his bike.

1:49 - 5:38: Marc’s Early Fire Service Journey
Topic: Starting in the Fire Service and Volunteering
Marc discusses his early days in the fire service, including his experiences as a junior firefighter and his time training to be a paramedic, before eventually joining the Air Force.

5:38 - 10:56: First Fire Experience
Topic: Marc’s First Fire and the Impact of Compassion
Marc recounts his first fire response during a mutual aid call. He shares the emotional experience of dealing with a family’s loss and the importance of compassion alongside the thrill of firefighting.

10:56 - 13:56: Transitioning to Battalion Chief and Leadership Philosophy
Topic: Leadership and Empowering the Team
Marc reflects on his leadership journey as a Battalion Chief, discussing how he empowers his team while balancing the role of a leader and a firefighter. He highlights the importance of allowing individuals to develop their own styles while maintaining department standards.

13:56 - 18:30: Learning from Mistakes and Constructive Criticism
Topic: The Importance of Post-Incident Reviews
The discussion shifts to Marc’s approach to post-incident debriefs. He explains how focusing on mistakes and failures helps the team improve and evolve. He emphasizes the need for candid reflection and learning from each experience.

18:30 - 23:45: Grinders vs. Naturally Gifted Firefighters
Topic: Hard Work vs. Natural Talent in the Fire Service
Marc talks about the difference between grinders, who work tirelessly to improve their skills, and naturally gifted firefighters. He explains why he aligns more with grinders and how their consistent effort leads to success over time.

23:45 - 29:41: Balancing Leadership with Hands-On Firefighting
Topic: Staying Involved as a Battalion Chief
Marc shares how his role as a Battalion Chief requires balancing leadership responsibilities with staying active in the field. He emphasizes the importance of being present for his team while supporting them with resources and leadership when necessary.

29:41 - 35:07: Conducting Effective Critiques
Topic: Accountability and Constructive Feedback
Marc discusses how he approaches critiques and feedback in the fire service. He stresses the importance of leading by example, being self-reflective, and creating an environment where team members feel comfortable sharing their experiences and learning from mistakes.

35:07 - 39:49: The Role of Education in Marc’s Career
Topic: The Value of Formal Education for Firefighters
Marc shares his experience with formal education, including his bachelor’s and master’s degrees. He highlights the value of education for career development, leadership skills, and personal growth within the fire service.

39:49 - 45:36: Reflecting on Early Career and Mistakes
Topic: Growth Through Challenges and Learning from Mistakes
Marc reflects on his earlier years as a firefighter and the lessons learned through mistakes. He shares how these experiences shaped his approach to firefighting and leadership, emphasizing the importance of continuous self-improvement.

Contact Information:
Blog: The Fire Inside

Facebook: The Fire Inside Facebook Page

Instagram: @TheFireInside

Jake dives deep into the multifaceted career of Gary Oldham, a veteran in public safety with experience as a police officer, dispatcher, and global strategist at Apple. Gary shares the evolution of his career—from the front lines of law enforcement to managing major technological transitions in emergency services, and now running his own consulting firm, Accelerant 4. This episode is rich with leadership insights, practical innovation in emergency response, and a strong advocacy for tech that genuinely serves first responders.

Introduction and Gary's Background (00:00 – 06:00)
Early start in public safety

Police Explorer to full-time officer at 18

Initial career motivations

Transition from Police Work to Dispatch (06:00 – 15:00)
Burnout and cynicism in law enforcement

Finding new purpose in dispatch

Differences between fire and police public perception

Challenges in Emergency Dispatch Systems (15:00 – 27:00)
Evolution from manual dispatch to Pro-QA

Misuse of 911 and liability concerns

Complexity of triage and human judgment

Public Sector to Private Sector Shift (27:00 – 36:00)
Transitioning to project management roles

Working with San Diego and navigating bureaucracy

Managing layoffs and organizational changes

Tech Leadership and Working with Vendors (36:00 – 45:00)
Leading expert teams as a non-expert

Avoiding micromanagement

Managing expectations in large-scale projects

Joining Apple and Building Public Safety Programs (45:00 – 1:00:00)
Overcoming skepticism and 0% market share

Building global police summits

Influencing product features like CarPlay integration

Creating Impact and Culture at Apple (1:00:00 – 1:12:00)
Apple’s unique culture and hiring practices

Commitment to privacy and ethical leadership

Working with first responders worldwide

Launch of Accelerant 4 and Consulting Focus (1:12:00 – 1:20:00)
Why Gary left Apple

Helping companies better engage with public safety

Tailoring technology to solve real-world problems

Leadership Insights and Future of Public Safety Tech (1:20:00 – 1:30:00)
Balancing team dynamics and technical talent

Evolving responder technology

Building realistic, scalable solutions

Gary Oldham is a seasoned public safety expert with over three decades of experience. His career spans police work, dispatch leadership, and tech innovation. At Apple, he led global public safety strategy, taking their market share from 0% to 70%. Now, he runs Accelerant 4, a consultancy helping companies and agencies implement effective, meaningful technology solutions in emergency services.
Website: accelerant4.com

Chief Rob Ramirez returns to the show to talk about one of the most unique opportunities in modern firefighting: helping build a brand-new fire department from the ground up. He shares stories of leadership, culture, training, and staying sharp after leaving the fire truck.

Segment Breakdown & Timestamps
[0:00 – 0:07] Intro & Career Leap
Rob returns to the podcast, recounting his jump from 20+ years in operations to a command role in a new department.
[0:07 – 0:14] Why Start Now? The Motivation Behind the Move
Rob explains the rare opportunity to help shape something from scratch and how it aligned with his career goals.
[0:14 – 0:21] Starting from Zero: Gear, Trucks, and Policies
Details about acquiring vehicles, setting SOPs, navigating town bureaucracy, and learning fast.
[0:21 – 0:28] Building the Team: Hiring & Leadership Philosophy
Rob outlines their recruitment strategy, training plans, and what type of people they’re looking for.
[0:28 – 0:35] Laying the Training Foundation
Why training won’t be optional. Rob discusses shift-based training, officer development, and ongoing standards.
[0:35 – 0:42] The Isolation of Leadership
What it feels like to be out of the action, staying connected to fireground competency, and the temptation to slip into admin-only thinking.
[0:42 – 0:49] How Culture is Built: People, Trust, and Accountability
The role of informal leaders, gatekeepers of culture, and using character-first hiring to prevent future problems.
[0:49 – 0:56] Handling Mistakes & Measuring Growth
After-action reviews, creating safe learning environments, and how Rob approaches performance evaluation.
[0:56 – 1:03] Search Urgency, Real-World Fire Talk & Caring About the Job
Rob and the host dissect a recent fireground situation involving victim removal, and what it reveals about urgency and culture.
[1:03 – 1:11] Mentorship, Mastery, and Long-Term Vision
Mentorship models, when to promote, and how the right people and structure create long-term excellence.
Key Moments
“You can’t read your own label from inside the jar.”

Rob’s final fire call as a captain, ending with gratitude and fireground clarity.

The skunk-in-the-parking-lot moment—and what it teaches about perspective.

“Our people are our greatest ambassadors.”

Resources & Mentions:
https://www.instagram.com/robramirez1075_official/?hl=en
https://www.jupiter.fl.us/firerescue

Guest Info: Chief Rob Ramirez
Division Chief of Training, Jupiter Fire Rescue

Founder of Mayday Mindset

National fire instructor and speaker

Dr. David Griffin shares his transformation from minor league baseball player to fire service leader, shaped by one of the most devastating tragedies in firefighting history—the 2007 Sofa Superstore Fire in Charleston, SC. Griffin recounts the incident in vivid detail, reflecting on how it reshaped his view of leadership, mental health, and responsibility. Nearly two decades later, he continues to advocate for cultural change, peer support, and meaningful leadership within emergency services. This episode offers a candid look at trauma, recovery, and the evolution of a career dedicated to honoring the past while improving the future.
Episode Breakdown & Timestamps:
[0:00] Introduction and Background of Dr. David Griffin
Overview of Griffin’s career and his shift from baseball to firefighting.

[0:02] Journey to the Fire Service
How a conversation with a fire chief led to an unexpected but lifelong career.

[0:07] Training and Early Career Reflections
Discussion on early training gaps and how outdated practices shaped his outlook.

[0:10] Mental Health and Organizational Change
The fire service’s growing focus on emotional well-being and leadership accountability.

[0:18] Sofa Superstore Fire Incident
A detailed, moment-by-moment account of the tragic fire that claimed nine lives.

[0:27] Aftermath and Recovery
The emotional toll, public reaction, and the beginning of personal and organizational healing.

[0:34] Leadership Evolution and Legacy
Post-incident changes and the long-term impact of the Charleston Nine on policy and culture.

[0:40] Therapy, Speaking, and Personal Impact
Griffin’s battle with PTSD, the healing role of therapy, and the emotional cost of public speaking.

[0:51] Principles of Leadership
The five core values that now guide his leadership style and mentorship philosophy.

Key Moments:
First-hand description of the 27-minute window that changed Charleston Fire forever.

Reflections on leading with humility and empowering the next generation.

The mental and emotional challenges of revisiting trauma through public speaking.

How the loss of fellow firefighters spurred sweeping department-wide changes.

Exploration of non-traditional therapies and long-term recovery strategies.

Resources & Mentions:
Rowley Report (Sofa Superstore Fire investigation)

Upcoming book: 27 Minutes by Dr. David Griffin

Waves of Recovery (Ibogaine therapy documentary)

Related discussions: Travis Howes’ podcast on trauma

Guest Information:
Dr. David Griffin
Assistant Chief, Charleston Fire Department
Author and national speaker on leadership and mental health in public safety
Website: drdavidgriffin.com
Instagram: @drdavidgriffin