Radiolab

In an episode we first ran back in 2019, we explore how a sunken nuclear submarine, a crazy billionaire, and a mechanical claw gave birth to a phrase that has hounded journalists and lawyers for 40 years and embodies the tension between the public’s desire for transparency and the government’s need to keep secrets.  

Whether it comes from government spokespeople or celebrity publicists, the phrase “can neither confirm nor deny” is the perfect non-denial denial. It’s such a perfect deflection that it seems like it’s been around forever, but reporter Julia Barton takes us back to the 1970s and the surprising origin story of what’s now known as a “Glomar Response.” With help from David Sharp and Walt Logan, we tell the story of a clandestine CIA operation to lift a sunken Soviet submarine from the ocean floor and the dilemma they faced when the world found out about it. It’s an episode we first released in 2014, but given some things in the news recently, it resonated with us again.

In the 40 years since that operation, the Glomar Response has become boilerplate language from an array of government agencies. With help from ProPublica editor Jeff Larson and NPR’s Dina Temple-Raston, we explore the implications of this ultimate information dodge. ACLU lawyer Jameel Jaffer explains how it stymies oversight, and we learn that, even 40 years later, governmental secrecy can be emotionally painful.

More information about Glomar:

After 40 years, many of the details of Project Azorian are only now coming to light. The US government’s default position has been to keep as much of it classified as possible. It took three years for retired CIA employee David Sharp to get permission to publish his account of Project Azorian. And FOIA played an indirect role in that, as Cold War historians got the CIA to release, in redacted form, an internal history of the mission. After that and a threat of legal action, Sharp was finally able to publish his manuscript in 2012.

We mentioned conspiracy theories that have swirled around Project Azorian filling the void where official silence has reigned. One of them is promulgated in the 2005 book “Red Star Rogue” by Kenneth Sewell and Clint Richmond. They posit that the K-129 was taken over by rogue Stalinist KGB agents in order to start a nuclear conflict. But the conflict was to be between the US and China, as, according to the authors, the sub had powers to disguise its sonic signature as a Chinese Navy vessel.

This book is the basis of the 2013 drama “Phantom,” which features Ed Harris and David Duchovny as Soviet military officers who sip vodka in a very un-Russian way.

Russian Naval historians, like Nikolai Cherkashin, are not only insulted by this take on the cause of the K-129’s demise, they say the true cause is much easier to pinpoint: They say an American vessel, possibly the USS Swordfish, collided with the Soviet submarine.

Despite the fact that the US government has turned over many documents about Project Azorian and what it found to the Russian government, many in the Russian Navy stand by their theory that it was far too easy for the US to locate the K-129 on the bottom of the Pacific, given the technology of the time. According to these theories, Project Azorian was nothing more than an elaborate cover-up disguised as ... an elaborate cover-up. We can neither confirm nor deny that we exactly understand how that would have worked in practice or execution.

It’s one of the more solemn moments of the Cold War, and one that the Glomar Response helped keep a secret for a very long time.

LATERAL CUTS:
What Lies Beneath (https://radiolab.org/podcast/what-lies-beneath) 

EPISODE CREDITS: 

Reported by - Julia Barton

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Lauren Brown gets goosebumps. A lot. Sometimes several times a day. When her partner, writer Carmen Maria Machado, noticed it...she couldn't stop thinking about it. Why does she get them in so many different situations? What’s happening in her body and what does it mean? We take that question and run with it. We face chilly winds, sudden frights, and moments when the world seem to shift under your feet to figure out what the little bumps on our skin might be trying to tell us.  

Special thanks to Rachel Gross, Gregory Rupik

EPISODE CREDITS:

Reported by Maria Paz Gutierrez

Produced by Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Gnanasambandan

Fact-checking by Angely Mercado

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Website - 

Institute for Advanced Consciousness Studies (advancedconsciousness.org) - If you want to check out more of the work Felix and Nicco are conducting.

Software -

Rewire website (https://rewire.bio) - Check out Felix and Nicco's Holy Shiver generator and signup for early access to their app.

Videos - 

Hallelujah (https://zpr.io/6ak2f), performed by Rufus Wainwright, accompanied by 1500 singers

De Ushuaia a La Quiaca (https://zpr.io/PcYbN)

Alysa Liu wins the Olympic gold medal for the United States (https://zpr.io/Q7pPNkYSTGVd)

Books -

Her Body and Other Parties, by Carmen Maria Machado

On Muscle: The Stuff That Moves Us and Why It Matters,  by Bonnie Tsui (https://www.bonnietsui.com/)

Sign up for our newsletter!! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Signup (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!

Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.

Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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Back in the 1950s, facing the threat of nuclear annihilation, federal officials sat down and pondered what American life would actually look like after an atomic attack. They faced a slew of practical questions like: Who would count the dead and where would they build the refugee camps? But they faced a more spiritual question as well. If Washington DC were hit, every object in the the National Archives would be eviscerated in a moment. Terrified by this reality, they set out to save some of America’s most precious stuff. Today, we look back at the items our Cold War era planners sought to save and we ask the question: what objects would we preserve now?

We first released this episode back in 2020, but with our big fourth of July – 250 years! – just around the corner, we thought it was a strange but profound reflection on what this whole America thing that we’re celebrating… actually is.

Special thanks to Luke Manon, Ben Irving, Bill Pretzer, Jason Spier, and Garrett Graff for all his reporting that made this episode possible.

LATERAL CUTS -
The Cataclysm Sentence (https://radiolab.org/podcast/cataclysm-sentence)

EPISODE CREDITS: 

Reported by - Simon Adler

with help from - Tad Davis

Produced by - Simon Adler

Original music and sound design contributed by - SIMON ADLER

and Edited by  - Pat Walters

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Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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Back in 2017, reporters Kristen Clark and David Conrad came to us with a story that dug into the difficult and often dark places discrimination creates. We start in Venice, Italy, where they meet gondolier Alex Hai. On the winding canals in the hidden parts of Venice, we learn about the nearly 1000-year old tradition of the Venetian Gondolier, and how the global media created a 20-year battle between that tradition and a supposed feminist icon. 

We circled back to Alex in 2026, to find out where the canal of life ended up leading after our initial reporting, and we’ve included some heartbreaking and heartwarming updates on Alex’s life at the end of this episode. 

Special thanks to Alexis Ungerer, Summer, Alex Hai, Kevin Gotkin, Silvia Del Fabbro, Sandro Mariot, Aldo Rosso and Marta Vannucci, The Longest Shortest Time (Hillary Frank, Peter Clowney and Abigail Keel), Tim Howard, Nick Adams/GLAAD, Valentina Powers, Florence Ursino, Ann Marie Somma, Alex Overington, Jeremy Bloom and the people of Little Italy. 

EPISODE CREDITS: 

Reported by - David Conrad and Kristen Clark.

Produced by - Annie McEwen and Molly Webster.

with help from - Anisa Vietze

Fact-checking for the update by - Angely Mercado

OTHER COOL THINGS:

Books -

The Gondolier, by Alex Hai

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After reading something that said her menstrual cycle changes her brain each month, Senior Correspondent Molly Webster goes on a reporting mission to see if that’s true, and, if so, how.

This journey into sex hormones and the brain involves females and males, and exacting self-experimentation. It gets into PTSD, and ends with a new twist on self-care (hint: it’s biological). And, it starts to reveal a sneaky truth: that each one of us is at the mercy of a crashing sea of chemicals inside of us – those things we call hormones.

Special thanks to Emily Jacobs, Laura Pritschet, Pavel Shapturenka, and Dr. Catherine Woolley.

EPISODE CREDITS:

Hosted by - Molly Webster

Reported by - Molly Webster

Produced by - Mona Madgavkar

with help from - Molly Webster

Fact-checking by - Diane A. Kelly

EPISODE CITATIONS:

Articles - 

**The experiments we feature in this episode are called: 28andMe, 28andOC, and 28andHe, all of which took place at Emily Jacobs lab at the University of California, Santa Barbara.** 

The 28 Project (https://zpr.io/CSx6MnwZjRvp), background from the Jacobs lab

For more on how much variability there is between female and male animals, check out this “groundbreaking” study, referenced by Emily Jacobs in our episode

Sex Bias in Neuroscience and Biomedical Research(https://zpr.io/ZRgKZzdNejUA),  by Beery AK, Zucker I., Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 2011

Dr. Catherine Woolley has revolutionized the field of neuroscience and sex hormones, here’s more about her work …

Sex Differences in the Brain Get Down to the Molecular Level Sex (https://zpr.io/UNCLE9J782N5), by Stephanie DeMarco, PhD, The Scientist.com

Hormonal Effects on the Brain (https://zpr.io/DvNM9EkXdtGG), by Woolley, C.S. and Schwartzkroin, P.A. Epilepsia

Data sets -

28andMe and 28andOC (https://zpr.io/hbXVNTVp2Q7j):

28andHe (https://zpr.io/sZXhfMbMwKb7)

Audio - 

In the episode, we mention Dr. Russ Poldrack and the Midnight Scan Club, as inspo for self-experimentation

The Midnight Scan Club (https://zpr.io/CLBhNQSxK844), by Science Friday.

 

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Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.

Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.

Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

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