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The Pragmatic Engineer

Podcast The Pragmatic Engineer
Gergely Orosz
Software engineering at Big Tech and startups, from the inside. Deepdives with experienced engineers and tech professionals who share their hard-earned lessons,...
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5 of 7
  • Software architecture with Grady Booch
    Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.• Sevalla — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images.• Chronosphere — The observability platform built for control.—Welcome to The Pragmatic Engineer! Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Grady Booch, a true legend in software development. Grady is the Chief Scientist for Software Engineering at IBM, where he leads groundbreaking research in embodied cognition.He’s the mind behind several object-oriented design concepts, a co-author of the Unified Modeling Language, and a founding member of the Agile Alliance and the Hillside Group.Grady has authored six books, hundreds of articles, and holds prestigious titles as an IBM, ACM, and IEEE Fellow, as well as a recipient of the Lovelace Medal (an award for those with outstanding contributions to the advancement of computing). In this episode, we discuss:• What it means to be an IBM Fellow• The evolution of the field of software development• How UML was created, what its goals were, and why Grady disagrees with the direction of later versions of UML• Pivotal moments in software development history• How the software architect role changed over the last 50 years• Why Grady declined to be the Chief Architect of Microsoft – saying no to Bill Gates!• Grady’s take on large language models (LLMs)• Advice to less experienced software engineers• … and much more!—Timestamps(00:00) Intro(01:56) What it means to be a Fellow at IBM(03:27) Grady’s work with legacy systems(09:25) Some examples of domains Grady has contributed to(11:27) The evolution of the field of software development(16:23) An overview of the Booch method(20:00) Software development prior to the Booch method(22:40) Forming Rational Machines with Paul and Mike(25:35) Grady’s work with Bjarne Stroustrup(26:41) ROSE and working with the commercial sector(30:19) How Grady built UML with Ibar Jacobson and James Rumbaugh(36:08) An explanation of UML and why it was a mistake to turn it into a programming language(40:25) The IBM acquisition and why Grady declined Bill Gates’s job offer (43:38) Why UML is no longer used in industry (52:04) Grady’s thoughts on formal methods(53:33) How the software architect role changed over time(1:01:46) Disruptive changes and major leaps in software development(1:07:26) Grady’s early work in AI(1:12:47) Grady’s work with Johnson Space Center(1:16:41) Grady’s thoughts on LLMs (1:19:47) Why Grady thinks we are a long way off from sentient AI (1:25:18) Grady’s advice to less experienced software engineers(1:27:20) What’s next for Grady(1:29:39) Rapid fire round—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• The Past and Future of Modern Backend Practices https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-past-and-future-of-backend-practices • What Changed in 50 Years of Computing https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/what-changed-in-50-years-of-computing • AI Tooling for Software Engineers: Reality Check https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-tooling-2024—Where to find Grady Booch:• X: https://x.com/grady_booch• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gradybooch• Website: https://computingthehumanexperience.comWhere to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—References and Transcripts:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe
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  • Linear: move fast with little process (with first engineering manager Sabin Roman)
    Brought to you by:• Launch Darkly — a platform for high-velocity engineering teams to release, monitor, and optimize great software. • Sevalla — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images.• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.—On today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by fellow Uber alum, Sabin Roman, now the first Engineering Manager at Linear. Linear, known for its powerful project and issue-tracking system, streamlines workflows throughout the product development process.In our conversation today, Sabin and I compare building projects at Linear versus our experiences at Uber. He shares insights into Linear’s unique approaches, including:• How Linear handles internal communications• The “goalie” program to address customer concerns and Linear’s zero bug policy• How Linear keeps teams connected despite working entirely remotely• An in-depth, step-by-step walkthrough of a project at Linear• Linear’s focus on quality and creativity over fash shipping • Titles at Linear, Sabin’s learnings from Uber, and much more!Timestamps(00:00) Intro(01:41) Sabin’s background(02:45) Why Linear rarely uses e-mail internally(07:32) An overview of Linear's company profile(08:03) Linear’s tech stack(08:20) How Linear operated without product people(09:40) How Linear stays close to customers(11:27) The shortcomings of Support Engineers at Uber and why Linear’s “goalies” work better(16:35) Focusing on bugs vs. new features(18:55) Linear’s hiring process(21:57) An overview of a typical call with a hiring manager at Linear(24:13) The pros and cons of Linear’s remote work culture(29:30) The challenge of managing teams remotely(31:44) A step-by-step walkthrough of how Sabin built a project at Linear (45:47) Why Linear’s unique working process works (49:57) The Helix project at Uber and differences in operations working at a large company(57:47) How senior engineers operate at Linear vs. at a large company(1:01:30) Why Linear has no levels for engineers (1:07:13) Less experienced engineers at Linear(1:08:56) Sabin’s big learnings from Uber(1:09:47) Rapid fire round—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• The story of Linear, as told by its CTO• An update on Linear, after their $35M fundraise• Software engineers leading projects• Netflix’s historic introduction of levels for software engineers—Where to find Sabin Roman:• X: https://x.com/sabin_roman• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabinroman/Where to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—References and Transcripts:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe
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  • Promotions and tooling at Google (with Irina Stanescu, Ex-Google)
    Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.• Sonar —  Trust your developers – verify your AI-generated code.—In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Irina Stanescu, a seasoned engineer with over 14 years in software engineering and engineering leadership roles at tech companies like Google and Uber. Now an engineering leadership coach, Irina helps tech professionals build impactful careers, teaches a course on influence, and shares insights through her newsletter, The Caring Techie. In our conversation today, Irina shares her journey of rising through the ranks at Google and Uber. We dive into the following topics: • An inside look at Google’s unique working processes• How to build credibility as a new engineer• Tactical tips for getting promoted • The importance of having a career plan and guidance in designing one• Having influence vs. influencing—and how to become more influential • Essential leadership skills to develop• And so much more—In this episode, we cover:(01:34) Irina’s time at Google(03:10) An overview of ‘design docs’ at Google(08:27) The readiness review at Google(10:40) Why Irina uses spreadsheets(11:44) Irina’s favorite tools and how she uses them(13:46) How Google certifies readability(15:40) Google’s meme generator (17:36) Advice for engineers thinking about working for an organization like Google(20:14) How promotions work at Google(23:15) How Irina worked towards getting promoted (27:50) How Irina got her first mentor (30:44) Organizational shifts at Uber while Irina and Gergely were there(35:50) Why you should prioritize growth over promotion(36:50) What a career plan is and how to build one(40:40) Irina’s current role coaching engineers (42:23) A simple explanation of influence and influencing (51:54) Why saying no is necessary at times(54:30) The importance of building leadership skills—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Preparing for promotions ahead of time: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/preparing-for-promotions • Engineering career paths at Big Tech and scaleups: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/engineering-career-paths • Getting an Engineering Executive Job: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/getting-an-engineering-executive • The Seniority Rollercoaster: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-seniority-rollercoaster—Where to find Irina Stanescu:• X: https://x.com/thecaringtechie• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/irinastanescu/• Website: https://www.thecaringtechie.com/• Maven course: Impact through Influence in Engineering Teams: https://maven.com/irina-stanescu/influence-sweWhere to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—References and Transcripts:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe
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  • Twisting the rules of building software: Bending Spoons (the team behind Evernote)
    Brought to you by:• The Enterprise Ready Conference on October 30th — For B2B leaders building enterprise SaaS.• DX — DX is an engineering intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. • ByteByteGo — Ace your next system design interview.—You may not be familiar with Bending Spoons, but I guarantee you’ve encountered some of their well-known products, like Evernote and Meetup. In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, we sit down with three key figures from the Italy-based startup: cofounder and CEO Luca Ferrari, CTO Francesco Mancone, and Evernote product lead Federico Simionato. Bending Spoons has been profitable from day one, and there's plenty we can learn from their unique culture, organizational structure, engineering processes, and hiring practices. In today’s conversation, we cover the following topics:• The controversial acquisitions approach of Bending Spoons• How Bending Spoons spent more than $1 billion in buying tech companies• How the Evernote acquisition happened• How Bending Spoons operates and how it organizes product and platform teams• Why engineering processes are different across different products• How ‘radical simplicity’ is baked into everything from engineering processes to pay structure.• And much more!—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Good attrition, bad attrition for software engineers: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/attrition • Healthy oncall practices: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/healthy-oncall-practices • Shipping to production: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/shipping-to-production• QA across the tech industry: https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/qa-across-tech—In this episode, we cover:(2:09) Welcome, Luca, Francesco, and Federico from Bending Spoons(03:15) An overview of the well-known apps and products owned by Bending Spoons(06:38) The elephant in the room: how Bending Spoons really acquires companies(09:46) Layoffs: Bending Spoons’ philosophy on this(14:10) Controversial principles(17:16) Revenue, team size, and products(19:35) How Bending Spoons runs AI products and allocates GPUs(23:05) History of the company(27:04) The Evernote acquisition(29:50) Modernizing Evernote’s infrastructure(32:44) “Radical simplicity” and why they try for zero on calls(36:13) More on changes made to the Evernote systems(41:13) How Bending Spoons prioritizes and ships fast (49:40) What’s new and what’s coming for Bending Spoons(51:08) Organizational structure at the company(54:07) Engineering practices(57:03) Testing approaches(58:53) Platform teams(1:01:52) Bending Spoons tech stack and popular frameworks(1:05:55) Why Bending Spoons hires new grads and less experienced engineers(1:08:09) The structure of careers and titles at Bending Spoons(1:09:50) Traits they look for when hiring (1:12:50) Why there aren’t many companies doing what Bending Spoons does —Where to find Luca Ferrari:• X: https://x.com/luke10ferrari• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luca-ferrari-12418318Where to find  Francesco Mancone:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francesco-manconeWhere to find Federico Simionato:• X: https://x.com/fedesimio• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/federicosimionatoWhere to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—References and Transcripts:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe
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    1:18:52
  • Efficient scaleups in 2024 vs 2021: Sourcegraph (with CEO & Co-founder Quinn Slack)
    Brought to you by:• Paragon: ​​Build native, customer-facing SaaS integrations 7x faster.• WorkOS: For B2B leaders building enterprise SaaS—On today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Quinn Slack, CEO and co-founder of Sourcegraph, a leading code search and intelligence platform. Quinn holds a degree in Computer Science from Stanford and is deeply passionate about coding: to the point that he still codes every day! He also serves on the board of Hack Club, a national nonprofit dedicated to bringing coding clubs to high schools nationwide. In this insightful conversation, we discuss:            • How Sourcegraph's operations have evolved since 2021• Why more software engineers should focus on delivering business value• Why Quinn continues to code every day, even as a CEO• Practical AI and LLM use cases and a phased approach to their adoption• The story behind Job Fairs at Sourcegraph and why it’s no longer in use• Quinn’s leadership style and his focus on customers and product excellence• The shift from location-independent pay to zone-based pay at Sourcegraph• And much more!—Where to find Quinn Slack:• X: https://x.com/sqs• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/quinnslack/• Website: https://slack.org/Where to find Gergely:• Newsletter: https://www.pragmaticengineer.com/• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/mrgergelyorosz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz/• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz—In this episode, we cover:(01:35) How Sourcegraph started and how it has evolved over the past 11 years(04:14) How scale-ups have changed (08:27) Learnings from 2021 and how Sourcegraph’s operations have streamlined(15:22) Why Quinn is for gradual increases in automation and other thoughts on AI(18:10) The importance of changelogs(19:14) Keeping AI accountable and possible future use cases (22:29) Current limitations of AI(25:08) Why early adopters of AI coding tools have an advantage (27:38) Why AI is not yet capable of understanding existing codebases (31:53) Changes at Sourcegraph since the deep dive on The Pragmatic Engineer blog(40:14) The importance of transparency and understanding the different forms of compensation(40:22) Why Sourcegraph shifted to zone-based pay(47:15) The journey from engineer to CEO(53:28) A comparison of a typical week 11 years ago vs. now(59:20) Rapid fire roundThe Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Inside Sourcegraph’s engineering culture: Part 1 https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/inside-sourcegraphs-engineering-culture• Inside Sourcegraph’s engineering culture: Part 2 https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/inside-sourcegraphs-engineering-culture-part-2—References and Transcript:See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe
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