Conversing with Mark Labberton

• Jewish Perspectives on America, Civics, and Religion, with Michael Holzman

  Rabbi Michael G. Holzman joins Mark Labberton to explore the formation of his Jewish faith, the pastoral realities of congregational life, and the multi-faith initiative he helped launch for the nation's 250th anniversary, Faith 250. He reflects on his early experiences of wonder in the natural world, the mentors who opened Torah to him, and the intellectual humility that shapes Jewish approaches to truth. Their conversation moves through the unexpected depth of congregational ministry, the spiritual and emotional weight of the pandemic, the complexities of speaking about God in contemporary Jewish life, and the role of cross-faith friendships. The episode concludes with Rabbi Holzman's reflections on how the suffering in Israel and Palestine reverberates among Jews and Muslims in America. Episode Highlights "I think we are desperately in need of ways to get Americans to agree that they're in the same community… simply by naming the Declaration of Independence as a piece of shared American scripture… we are inviting people and really challenging ourselves to think about the words in those documents seriously, and prayerfully." "My formation as a child was relatively non-theological… my mother just would sit there and say, 'Do you feel that wind?' And for me, knowing that it was in a national park mattered… being in such a grand and awesome space, under the enormity of the heavens." "The pursuit of truth with epistemic humility really became the cornerstone…if Moses wasn't allowed to see God's face, I'm never gonna see God's face—and yet we are all still pursuing what the meaning of this incredible text is." "I was a little bit unprepared… until you experience it as a pastor, you don't really understand the power of those things. That rootedness in this particular congregation gave me a sense of existential meaning that I didn't anticipate." "The thing that got me through that darkness was Saturday morning Torah study… just being there with the text and with these faces and these people… that to me was my path through the darkness." "When people are sitting over the text, the most palpable experience of God is this moment of understanding another human being… it's so vulnerable and it's so fleeting and it's so beautiful." "There is an experience happening on the ground of absolute suffering and horror on both sides… and there's a parallel experience happening for Jews and Muslims in America. It's powerful, spiritually powerful, emotionally powerful, and to people's core." Helpful Links and Resources Faith 250 https://www.faith250.org/ "The New Colossus" by Emma Lazarus https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus "What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?" by Frederick Douglass https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july/ "America the Beautiful" by Katherine Lee Bates https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/america-beautiful-1893 I and Thou, Martin Buber https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780684717258/i-and-thou About Rabbi Michael G. Holzman Rabbi Michael G. Holzman is the Senior Rabbi of Northern Virginia Hebrew Congregation (NVHC), where he has served since 2010. His work focuses on spiritual formation, civic engagement, multi-faith partnership, and the cultivation of communities grounded in dignity, learning, and ethical responsibility. He founded the Rebuilding Democracy Project, which developed into Faith 250, a national multi-faith initiative preparing communities for the 250th anniversary of the United States through shared reflection on foundational American texts. He teaches and writes on Jewish ethics, civic life, and spiritual resilience. Show Notes Faith 250 American Scripture Faith 250 as a response to political despair and a way for clergy to exercise agency Four core American texts explored as shared scripture across faiths Intent to counter politicization of the 250th anniversary through spiritual depth Multi-faith relationships grounding the initiative in shared civic and moral concern Emphasis on clergy as conveners of spiritually safe, local containers for reading The Declaration, New Colossus, Frederick Douglass, and America the Beautiful as "scriptural" portals to civic meaning "American scripture" as a means of naming shared identity and shared community Jewish Formation and Torah Childhood shaped by nature, wonder, and ethical awareness rather than synagogue life Early encounters with the Everglades as formative experiences of spirit and awe Discovery of Torah study as a young adult across Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform settings Epistemic humility as a defining mark of Jewish study practice Pursuit of truth understood through the "through a glass darkly" frame of Moses Torah received "through the hand of Moses" as mediating truth and mystery Chevruta (paired study) as the engine of discovery, disagreement, and meaning Pastoral Life and Congregational Meaning Surprised by the depth of pastoral work: weddings, funerals, life-cycle passages Intimacy of congregational leadership as a source of meaning rather than tedium Congregational relationships forming an existential and vocational anchor The role of community support during family medical crises How decades-long pastoral presence shapes shared covenantal life Teaching 12- and 13-year-olds to encounter the text as spiritual practice The power of intergenerational relationships in spiritual resilience Pandemic and Spiritual Survival Early months of 2020 as a time of fear, isolation, and emotional strain Counseling families whose loved ones were dying without visitors Previous experience with depression creating early warning signals Telehealth therapy as a critical intervention Saturday morning Torah study on Zoom becoming the path through darkness Growth of the study community throughout the pandemic Predictable humor and shared reading as markers of communal stability Textuality, God-Language, and Jewish Hesitations Jewish discomfort speaking explicitly about God for theological and cultural reasons Layers of humility, anti-mysticism, differentiation from Christianity, and historical experience Sacredness and mystery of the scroll growing in the digital age Physicality of the Torah scroll attracting deeper attention and reverence Hebrew as a source of multivalent meaning, sonic power, and spiritual resonance Reading together as the most common encounter with God: understanding another's soul Pastoral awareness of individuals' life stories shaping group study dynamics Cross-Faith Devotion and Shared Honor Friendships with Muslim, Christian, and Hasidic leaders deepening spiritual insight Devotion in others sparking awe rather than defensiveness Disagreement becoming a site of connection rather than separation Devotion in other traditions prompting self-reflection on one's own commitments Stories of praying with and learning from ultra-Orthodox leaders Shared pursuit of truth across tradition lines as a form of civic and spiritual honor American religious diversity offering unprecedented exposure to sincere piety Israel, Gaza, and American Jewish Experience Suffering, fear, and horror experienced by Israelis and Palestinians Parallel emotional and spiritual pressures faced by Jews and Muslims in America Concern about political manipulation of community trauma Generational trauma and its transmission, including Holocaust-era family stories Emotional resonance of global conflict in local congregational life Distinction and connection between geopolitical realities and American spiritual experience Call to honor emotional realities across neighborhoods and communities Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

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• How a Friendsgiving Rescued Me from Despair, with Mark Labberton

  In this Thanksgiving reflection, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to concrete acts of hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community "Friendsgiving" potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community. If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you're going through, and get the support you need. About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton's master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary "… not just overwhelmed, but really undone" " … the possibility of ending my life …" Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community Beauty of friendship A magnificent extravaganza Sharing not just food but hope "Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life." "For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day." If you're feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor. Seek community. "Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today." Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

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• Violence, with Mike McBride

  To exist as a black male in America is to be perceived as a threat, where criminality is attributed by default and violence is justified from racial bias. And as a young man, Pastor Mike McBride learned through personal experience that following Jesus does not protect you from the violence of the state. How could it, when Jesus himself was crucified by religious- and state-sponsored violence? In this episode, Pastor Mike (The Way Christian Center, Berkeley, CA) joins Mark Labberton to discuss the confluence of Black Pentecostal holiness, police brutality, gun violence prevention, Christian nationalism, political polarization, racial justice, and the urgent spiritual crisis facing the American church. From his childhood in the San Francisco neighborhood of Bayview–Hunter's Point, to the trauma of a police assault in 1999, to national leadership in Ferguson, to confronting the rise of authoritarian Christianity, Pastor Mike traces the formation of his vocation and the cost of staying faithful to Jesus in a nation shaped by anti-blackness and state-sponsored violence. His story of survival, theological awakening, moral urgency, and hopeful action is rooted in the gospel's call to respond with peaceful action against the violence of the world. Episode Highlights "What is it about this gospel that their family members, their parents trust you with the salvation of their souls, but not the safety of their bodies." "It forced me to really have a strong come to Jesus meeting about how am I being prepared to do what I was already feeling a lifeline calling of ministry while I was starting the work of justice as a first victim and crime survivor." "It is some kind of delusion for us to follow Jesus who got crucified and killed by the state and then be surprised when we get crucified by the state." "I think there was just this sensibility that was a part of our upbringing that this is what it means to be black in America." "People are being discipled into racism. People are being discipled into anti-blackness." "I hope that feeding the hungry clothing the naked healing the sick is not something that in 2025 Christians identify as some leftist socialist liberal Christianity or we've lost it." Helpful Links and Resources Live Free USA https://www.livefreeusa.org Roots, Alex Haley https://www.amazon.com/Roots-American-Family-Alex-Haley/dp/030682485X Boston TenPoint Coalition / Eugene Rivers https://btpc.org/ Oscar Grant Case (NPR Overview) https://www.npr.org/2010/07/09/128401136/transit-officers-verdict-sparks-violent-protests About Michael McBride Pastor Michael McBride (often known as "Pastor Mike") is the National Director of Live Free USA, a nationwide movement of faith leaders and congregations dedicated to ending gun violence, mass incarceration, and the criminalization of Black and Brown communities. A respected activist, pastor, and organizer, he has been a prominent voice in national efforts to address police violence, promote community-based safety strategies, and mobilize churches for racial justice. Pastor Mike is also the founding pastor of The Way Christian Center in Berkeley, California. His leadership, advocacy, and public witness have been featured across major media outlets, integrating faith, justice, and community transformation. Show Notes Holiness, formation, and black pentecostal roots Growing up as the second oldest of six in Hunters Point with deep Southern family roots "We grew up just very much enmeshed in a black church, holiness culture." Strict holiness prohibitions: no movies, no drinking, no secular music, no dancing. Holiness as both constraint and survival strategy during the crack era The world of Southern Baptist school culture colliding with black identity Racial Identity, Civil Rights Memory, and Family Formation Annual watching of Eyes on the Prize as civic and spiritual ritual. Leaving school to attend MLK Day celebrations: "I dare you to say something about it." Roots, Alex Haley, and early consciousness of black struggle and survival State violence, trauma, and theological turning point March 1999 police assault: physical and sexual violence during a "weapons search." "You can be following Jesus faithfully and still be subjected to violence at the hands of the state." The dissonance of worshiping a crucified Messiah while denying contemporary crucifixions Youth in his ministry revealing they didn't tell him because "we didn't think the church would do anything." Call to ministry, theological awakening, and training Exposure to church history, patristics, Thomas Merton, and MLK Jr. Grant Wacker inviting him to Duke; scholarship leading to seminary training Influence of black theologians and faculty shaping his justice imagination Meeting Eugene Rivers and the birth of a vocation in violence reduction and organizing Ferguson, activism, and the crisis of Christian witness Returning from Cape Town when Mike Brown was killed; sudden call to St. Louis Tear gas, militarized police, and "the ugly underside of the American law enforcement apparatus." "Our marriages didn't survive that era." Ferguson as exposure of the divide within the American church: respectability politics, sexuality panic, racial division "People are being discipled into racism … into militarism … into economic exploitation." Political polarization and Christian Nationalism 2016–present: Trumpism as a carrier of a broader reactionary Christian political project. Concern for Christian authoritarianism masquerading as religious fidelity. "You should definitely live out your convictions… but that don't mean you should kill everybody else on your hill." Deep grief over the church's inability to discern the danger George Floyd, red lines, and the urgency of now Summer 2020 as national smelling salt: "the banality and the violence of this state." The ceiling on empathy in American evangelicalism Targeted universalism and the need for differentiated strategies for shared goals Wealth inequality, homelessness, hunger, and the moral failure of Christianized politics "I hope that feeding the hungry clothing the naked healing the sick is not something… Christians identify as leftist." Participatory democracy as spiritual stewardship The Trinity as a model of unity-with-difference Holiness as public witness: protecting bodies and souls A charge to oppose Christian nationalism and join justice-infused faithfulness Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

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• Black Church and Culture War, with Justin Giboney

  How would the black church's public witness guide Christians through today's polarization, culture-war dynamics, and ideological captivity? Drawing from Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around, Justin Giboney joins Mark Labberton to reflect on Christian credibility (and lack thereof), the black church's public witness, and the deep forces shaping American polarization. Reflecting on the legacy of the twentieth-century civil rights generation, Giboney describes how the black church's fusion of orthodoxy and social action offers a model for healing division, resisting ideological captivity, and embodying what he calls "moral imagination." Citing the formative influences of his grandmother Willie Faye, the example of Mahalia Jackson, and the ongoing challenge of navigating truth, justice, family, unity, and political engagement in a fractured moment, Giboney explores discipleship in an ideological age, the cost of a credible public witness, and the hope of a church capable of transcending partisan allegiance to seek the good of neighbor and the glory of God. Episode Highlights "One thing that I saw in the civil rights generation is they were able to have a bigger perspective, even in songs like 'Keep Your Eyes on the Prize.'" "Love is self-sacrifice. It's being willing to at my own expense in some instances give up what I have to others." "This was a deliberate decision that they made to say, we're not gonna choose one of these two sides that these groups are creating for us." "Within the public square, credibility is currency." "I want all Christians to take that as their own and build on that." Helpful Links and Resources Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around by Justin Giboney https://www.ivpress.com/don-t-let-nobody-turn-you-around The AND Campaign https://andcampaign.org/ Mahalia Jackson biography (PBS) https://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/mahalia-jackson-about-the-singer/602/ Reading While Black by Esau McCaulley https://ivpress.com/reading-while-black About Justin Giboney Justin Giboney is an attorney and political strategist in Atlanta, Georgia. He is also the co-founder and president of the AND Campaign, a Christian civic organization focused on asserting the compassion and conviction of the gospel in the public square. He has served as an attorney, political organizer, and civic leader, and he regularly speaks and writes on the intersection of Christianity and politics. Show Notes Justin Giboney describes being an attorney, political strategist, and ordained minister, and cofounder of the AND Campaign He explains the AND Campaign's mission to raise civic literacy among Christians and resist purely partisan frameworks in favor of a biblical one "Social justice and moral order, love and truth, compassion and conviction" as a united Christian vision rather than opposing camps Lit City literacy initiative in Atlanta bringing churches across racial and partisan divides together for shared mission Ten-week programs for Christians preparing to run for office or engage politics constructively Naming and confronting polarization as a dialectical division that splits what should be held together Intro and summary to Giboney's book, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around, framed as applying civil rights wisdom to the current culture-war moment Giboney's grandmother Willie Faye and Mahalia Jackson as representative figures of the civil rights generation's theological and moral framework Moral imagination defined as the capacity to see what ought to be, not merely what is: "the ability to see what will be based on God's promises" Songs like "Keep Your Eyes on the Prize" as examples of moral imagination sustaining courage and humility The necessity of Scripture's authority and why the black church's orthodoxy and orthopraxy shape public witness Giboney's critique of individualism and his insistence that love is fundamentally "self-sacrifice" rather than self-expression Historical correction: The black church neither mirrors conservative ideology nor progressive ideology; it deliberately resisted both. "If we go to the right, we lose our bodies… if we go to the left, we could lose our soul." The strategic theological posture of black church leaders Christian credible witness requires coherence, humility, and honesty—rather than partisan performance Credibility in public "is currency," requiring self-examination, confession, and honesty about ideological idols Civil Rights Movement disciplines: self-purification, preparation through prayer and fellowship, resisting bitterness before engaging action Parenting, resilience, and teaching his sons not to give disproportionate emotional energy to racist comments, while still confronting wrongdoing The role of community formation, honor, and integrated humanity within black church worship life Hopes for the church: rejecting secular assumptions about who can reconcile, cultivating humility across divisions AND Campaign's twenty-year vision: Christians uniting across party lines around shared commitments like racial justice, family, sanctity of life, and poverty Final exhortation: The black church's public witness is a gift and challenge to the entire American church, not just one community. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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• Reading Revelation Responsibly, with Michael Gorman

  What is the book of Revelation really about? For ages, it has been the source of sensationalism, idolatry, confusion, and end-times predictions. But at its root, it is about the power and worship of the Lamb who was slain. Biblical scholar Michael J. Gorman joins Mark Labberton to explore how Christians can read the book of Revelation with wisdom, faith, and hope rather than fear or sensationalism. Drawing from his book Reading Revelation Responsibly: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation, Gorman offers a reorientation to Revelation's central vision: worshipping the Lamb, resisting idolatrous power, and embodying faithful discipleship in the world. Together they discuss Revelation's misuses in popular culture, its critique of empire and nationalism, and its invitation to follow the crucified and risen Christ into the new creation. Episode Highlights "The book of Revelation is about lamb power—not hyper-religious or political power. It's about absorbing rather than inflicting evil." "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the book of Revelation." "We shouldn't look for predictions but for parallels and analogies." "Worship, discipleship, and new creation—that's where Revelation hangs its hat." "At its root, Christian nationalism is a form of idolatry." "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Helpful Links and Resources Reading Revelation Responsibly – https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Revelation-Responsibly-Following-Creation/dp/1606085603/ Reverse Thunder by Eugene Peterson – https://www.amazon.com/Reversed-Thunder-Revelation-Praying-Imagination/dp/0060665033 St. Mary's Seminary & University, Baltimore – https://www.stmarys.edu About Michael J. Gorman Michael J. Gorman is the Raymond E. Brown Professor of Biblical Studies and Theology at St. Mary's Seminary & University in Baltimore, Maryland. A leading New Testament scholar, he is the author of numerous books on Pauline theology and Revelation, including Reading Revelation Responsibly, Cruciformity, and Participating in Christ. Gorman's teaching and writing emphasize Scripture as a call to cruciform discipleship, faithful worship, and the hope of new creation. Show Notes Introducing Reading Revelation Responsibly "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the Book of Revelation." "Apocalypse" means revelation, not destruction. Emerging from twenty-five years of study and teaching, aimed at rescuing Revelation from misinterpretation or neglect Growing up amid 1970s end-times obsession—Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and fearful youth-group predictions of the world's end Fear of the book of Revelation until he studied it with Bruce Metzger at Princeton Seminary Why he wrote the book: for people who have been scared or confused by Revelation's misuse Interpretation and misreading the book of Revelation Early questions: Does Revelation predict particular events or people? No predictions, but symbolic speaking into every age "Our task is not to find predictions but to discern parallels and analogies." Warning against mapping Revelation onto modern crises or personalities "When those predictions fail, the book gets sidelined or scoffed at." Keep one foot in the first-century context and one in the present Worship and discipleship The heart of Revelation is worship. "This is a book about worship—and about the object of our worship." Explaining the subtitle: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation "Uncivil worship" contrasts with "civil religion"—worship that refuses to idolize political power Influence from Eugene Peterson's Reverse Thunder and his own teaching at St. Mary's, where Peterson once taught Revelation Worship leads to discipleship: "Those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes." True discipleship mirrors the Lamb's humility and non-violence. The lamb and the meaning of power Interpreting Revelation's vision of the slain and standing Lamb as the key to understanding divine power "The crucified Messiah is the risen Lord—but he remains the crucified one." The Lamb appears twenty-eight times, a symbol of universality and completeness. "Revelation is about lamb power—absorbing rather than inflicting evil." Discipleship is cruciform: following the Lamb's way of self-giving love. The unholy trinity and the danger of idolatry Chapters 12–13 depict the dragon and two beasts—the "unholy trinity" of satanic, imperial, and religious power. "Power gone amok": political, military, and spiritual domination that mimic divinity How true worship resists empire and exposes idolatry Warning against reading these beasts as predictions of the UN or the pope; rather, they reveal recurring alliances of religion and politics "At its root, Christian nationalism is idolatry." When political identity eclipses discipleship, "political power always wins, and faith loses." Faith, politics, and worship today Christian nationalism as a modern form of "civil religion," conflating patriotism with divine will "It's only Christian in name—it lacks Christian substance." Idolatry is not limited to one side: "It permeates the left, the right, and probably the centre." Labberton agrees: false worship is endemic wherever self-interest and fear shape our loves. Both stress that Revelation calls the church to worship the Lamb, not the state. "Revelation critiques all human systems of false worship." Revelation's goal: Not destruction, but new creation "Destruction is penultimate—cleansing the way for renewal." Believers already live as citizens of that new creation. "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Communal, not merely individual, discipleship: "Revelation is written to churches, not just believers." Reinterpreting Revelation 3:20: Jesus knocking isn't an altar call to unbelievers but Christ seeking re-entry into his own church. "Jesus always wants to come back in." Living revelation today Spirituality of hope, not fear or withdrawal "Reading Revelation responsibly means engaging the world through worship and witness." How true worship is dangerous because it transforms our allegiance. "Following the Lamb into the new creation is the church's act of resistance." Conclusion: "Worthy is the Lamb." Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

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