EP224 Protecting the Learning Machines: From AI Agents to Provenance in MLSecOps
Guest: Diana Kelley, CSO at Protect AI Topics: Can you explain the concept of "MLSecOps" as an analogy with DevSecOps, with 'Dev' replaced by 'ML'? This has nothing to do with SecOps, right? What are the most critical steps a CISO should prioritize when implementing MLSecOps within their organization? What gets better when you do it? How do we adapt traditional security testing, like vulnerability scanning, SAST, and DAST, to effectively assess the security of machine learning models? Can we? In the context of AI supply chain security, what is the essential role of third-party assessments, particularly regarding data provenance? How can organizations balance the need for security logging in AI systems with the imperative to protect privacy and sensitive data? Do we need to decouple security from safety or privacy? What are the primary security risks associated with overprivileged AI agents, and how can organizations mitigate these risks? Top differences between LLM/chatbot AI security vs AI agent security? Resources: “Airline held liable for its chatbot giving passenger bad advice - what this means for travellers” “ChatGPT Spit Out Sensitive Data When Told to Repeat ‘Poem’ Forever” Secure by Design for AI by Protect AI “Securing AI Supply Chain: Like Software, Only Not” OWASP Top 10 for Large Language Model Applications OWASP Top 10 for AI Agents (draft) MITRE ATLAS “Demystifying AI Security: New Paper on Real-World SAIF Applications” (and paper) LinkedIn Course: Security Risks in AI and ML: Categorizing Attacks and Failure Modes
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30:40
EP223 AI Addressable, Not AI Solvable: Reflections from RSA 2025
Guests: no guests, just us in the studio Topics: At RSA 2025, did we see solid, measurably better outcomes from AI use in security, or mostly just "sizzle" and good ideas with potential? Are the promises of an "AI SOC" repeating the mistakes seen with SOAR in previous years regarding fully automated security operations? Does "AI SOC" work according to RSA floor? How realistic is the vision expressed by some [yes, really!] that AI progress could lead to technical teams, including IT and security, shrinking dramatically or even to zero in a few years? Why do companies continue to rely on decades-old or “non-leading” security technologies, and what role does the concept of a "organizational change budget" play in this inertia? Is being "AI Native" fundamentally better for security technologies compared to adding AI capabilities to existing platforms, or is the jury still out? Got "an AI-native SIEM"? Be ready to explain how is yours better! Resources: EP172 RSA 2024: Separating AI Signal from Noise, SecOps Evolves, XDR Declines? EP119 RSA 2023 - What We Saw, What We Learned, and What We're Excited About EP70 Special - RSA 2022 Reflections - Securing the Past vs Securing the Future RSA (“RSAI”) Conference 2024 Powered by AI with AI on Top — AI Edition (Hey AI, Is This Enough AI?) [Anton’s RSA 2024 recap blog] New Paper: “Future of the SOC: Evolution or Optimization — Choose Your Path” (Paper 4 of 4.5) [talks about the change budget discussed]
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31:37
EP222 From Post-IR Lessons to Proactive Security: Deconstructing Mandiant M-Trends
Guests: Kirstie Failey @ Google Threat Intelligence Group Scott Runnels @ Mandiant Incident Response Topics: What is the hardest thing about turning distinct incident reports into a fun to read and useful report like M-Trends? How much are the lessons and recommendations skewed by the fact that they are all “post-IR” stories? Are “IR-derived” security lessons the best way to improve security? Isn’t this a bit like learning how to build safely from fires vs learning safety engineering? The report implies that F500 companies suffer from certain security issues despite their resources, does this automatically mean that smaller companies suffer from the same but more? "Dwell time" metrics sound obvious, but is there magic behind how this is done? Sometimes “dwell tie going down” is not automatically the defender’s win, right? What is the expected minimum dwell time? If “it depends”, then what does it depend on? Impactful outliers vs general trends (“by the numbers”), what teaches us more about security? Why do we seem to repeat the mistakes so much in security? Do we think it is useful to give the same advice repeatedly if the data implies that it is correct advice but people clearly do not do it? Resources: M-Trends 2025 report Mandiant Attack Lifecycle EP205 Cybersecurity Forecast 2025: Beyond the Hype and into the Reality EP147 Special: 2024 Security Forecast Report
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EP221 Special - Semi-Live from Google Cloud Next 2025: AI, Agents, Security ... Cloud?
Guests: No guests [Tim in Vegas and Anton remote] Topics: So, another Next is done. Beyond the usual Vegas chaos, what was the overarching security theme or vibe you [Tim] felt dominated the conference this year? Thinking back to Next '24, what felt genuinely different this year versus just the next iteration of last year's trends? Last year, we pondered the 'Cloud Island' vs. 'Cloud Peninsula'. Based on Next 2025, is cloud security becoming more integrated with general cyber security, or is it still its own distinct domain? What wider trends did you observe, perhaps from the expo floor buzz or partner announcements, that security folks should be aware of? What was the biggest surprise for you at Next 2025? Something you absolutely didn't see coming? Putting on your prediction hats (however reluctantly): based on Next 2025, what do you foresee as the major cloud security focus or challenge for the industry in the next 12 months? If a busy podcast listener listening could only take one key message or action item away from everything announced and discussed at Next 2025, what should it be? Resources: EP169 Google Cloud Next 2024 Recap: Is Cloud an Island, So Much AI, Bots in SecOps
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30:26
EP220 Big Rewards for Cloud Security: Exploring the Google VRP
Guests: Michael Cote, Cloud VRP Lead, Google Cloud Aadarsh Karumathil, Security Engineer, Google Cloud Topics: Vulnerability response at cloud-scale sounds very hard! How do you triage vulnerability reports and make sure we’re addressing the right ones in the underlying cloud infrastructure? How do you determine how much to pay for each vulnerability? What is the largest reward we paid? What was it for? What products get the most submissions? Is this driven by the actual product security or by trends and fashions like AI? What are the most likely rejection reasons? What makes for a very good - and exceptional? - vulnerability report? We hear we pay more for “exceptional” reports, what does it mean? In college Tim had a roommate who would take us out drinking on his Google web app vulnerability rewards. Do we have something similar for people reporting vulnerabilities in our cloud infrastructure? Are people making real money off this? How do we actually uniquely identify vulnerabilities in the cloud? CVE does not work well, right? What are the expected risk reduction benefits from Cloud VRP? Resources: Cloud VRP site Cloud VPR launch blog CVR: The Mines of Kakadûm
Cloud Security Podcast by Google focuses on security in the cloud, delivering security from the cloud, and all things at the intersection of security and cloud. Of course, we will also cover what we are doing in Google Cloud to help keep our users' data safe and workloads secure.
We’re going to do our best to avoid security theater, and cut to the heart of real security questions and issues. Expect us to question threat models and ask if something is done for the data subject’s benefit or just for organizational benefit.
We hope you’ll join us if you’re interested in where technology overlaps with process and bumps up against organizational design. We’re hoping to attract listeners who are happy to hear conventional wisdom questioned, and who are curious about what lessons we can and can’t keep as the world moves from on-premises computing to cloud computing.
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