Rosenfeld Review Podcast

As UX roles and titles continue to shift, the ability to make sense of complexity may matter more than ever. Lou talks with information architect, author, and longtime collaborator Abby Covert about how her work evolved from information architecture into the broader practice of sensemaking—and why she believes that work extends far beyond people with “IA” in their job titles.

Abby also offers a preview of Shift UX, Rosenfeld Media’s hybrid conference on September 24–25, where she is one of the main curators. She explains how the event itself is being redesigned to move away from “design theater”: speakers will share the stage, dedicated sensemakers will connect ideas across talks, and the audience will become part of the conversation.

The conversation explores Abby’s Sensemakers Club, the importance of creating genuine community, and her new book, Timeless Sensemaking for Modern Sensemakers. Throughout, Abby makes the case that sensemaking isn’t simply about organizing information—it’s also about understanding people, adapting how we communicate, and helping others turn complexity into something they can actually use.

 

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

How information architecture led Abby to the broader practice of sensemaking

Why UX skills may outlast traditional UX roles and titles

How Shift UX is rethinking the traditional conference experience

Why sensemaking is personal—and looks different for everyone

How intentional discussion can turn connection into genuine community

Why adapting how you communicate can make your work more effective

 

Quick Reference Guide:
0:16 - Meet Abby

2:29 - Sense-making as part of information architecture; placemaking vs sensemaking

5:31 - More on the term sensemaking

9:46 - More on placemaking; moving away from performance and toward disclosure; experience design

16:09 - 15% off on two books: What Your Machine Should Do by Stephanie Hutko and Body Talk by Dane Sutter and Stephanie Scopolitis

17:17 - Sensemaking is personal

19:11 - What sensemaking will look like at the Shift UX conference

21:22 - Sensemakers Club and Abby’s book

26:27 - More on Abby’s book

30:34 - Abby’s gift for listeners

31:33 - Check out the Rosenverse

 

Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
How to Make Sense of Any Mess by Abby Covert https://abbycovert.com/make-sense/

Shift UX - September 24-25, 2026 https://shiftux.rosenfeldmedia.com/

Timeless Sensemaking for Modern Sensemakers by Abby Covert https://abbycovert.com/sensemaking/

Extra Bold, Feminist, Inclusive, Anti-Racist, Non-Binary Field Guide for Graphic Designers by Ellen Lupton, Farah Kafei, Jennifer Tobias, Josh A. Halstead, Kaleena Sales, Leslie Xia, Valentina Vergara https://papress.com/products/extra-bold

Quotes:
“I've come to understand sensemaking as a part of information architecture.”

“Information is sketchy when you look at it as a material that we wield.” 

“The stage is becoming sort of like this central gathering space, more like a meeting house and less like a theater production.”

“Sensemaking is an incredibly personal process.”

Product management is changing fast — and according to Julia Barham, many PMs are being pushed to the “left,” beyond delivery work into deeper discovery, customer insight, and strategic thinking. Julia joins Lou to discuss her forthcoming book, The Product Management Playbook: Create, Ship, and Optimize Winning Products, and why modern product managers need broader, end-to-end skills to thrive.

Julia explains how AI and automation are reducing the amount of manual coordination and backlog management product managers traditionally handled — creating both anxiety and opportunity. As delivery work becomes easier, PMs are increasingly expected to spend more time understanding customers, validating ideas, collaborating across disciplines, and driving outcomes instead of simply shipping features. She also argues that great product managers succeed not because they know everything, but because they cultivate curiosity, build strong partnerships, and continuously learn across business, design, data, technology, and customer domains.

The conversation also explores why many product managers feel disempowered inside organizations, the growing overlap between product and UX research, and how self-education, mentorship, and optimism can help professionals adapt during an uncertain AI-driven transition.

 

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

Why product management roles are shifting toward discovery work

How AI is changing delivery and project-management tasks

The five core domains strong product managers understand

Why curiosity is a product manager’s “X factor”

How PMs can better partner with UX, engineering, and data teams

Why many product managers feel disempowered today

How self-education and mentorship accelerate PM growth

What end-to-end product management really looks like

 

Quick Reference Guide:
0:18 – Meet Julia and learn why she wrote her new book

2:43 - Product managers shifting into customer rese–arch roles

5:29 - The dynamics of research shifting into the product space

8:44 - Other major messages of Julia’s book

11:55 - The common thread: curiosity

13:24 - Designing with AI virtual conference

14:10 - The insecurity of having breadth of knowledge but not depth

17:09 - The importance of self-education

19:02 - The ubiquitous attitude of “nobody listens to me or respects my position” and what to do about it

23:46 - Julia’s gift for listeners

 

Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
The Product Management Playbook: Create, Ship, and Optimize Winning Products by Julia Barham https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/product-management-playbook/ 

Dr. Marily Nika’s courses on Maven https://maven.com/marily-nika  

Dr. Marily Nika on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marilynika 

Hilary Gridley’s Couch-to-5K for AI https://couchto5k.ai/ 

 

Quotes:
“Successful product managers usually operate across five different domains.” 

“It’s not a book on theory; it’s a book on doing.”

“You need to be a really good partner if you want to be a great product manager.”

“The point is harnessing multiple superpowers to get that integrated thinking and develop a solution that’s going to work across what customers need, businesses need, and then can be scalable and sustainable.”  

“You have to be curious. You have to spend time with your partners, get mentors, and learn to understand how design, data, technology all help you make a better product for customers and for your business.”

AI is opening the door to a new era of design—but most teams are still focused on making their existing work faster rather than reimagining what’s possible. Lou talks with Josh Clark and Veronica Kindred about their new book, Sentient Design, and what it takes to design truly intelligent interfaces.

They introduce the idea of “practical magic”—starting with bold, even impossible wishes and then working backward to create real, deliverable experiences. Rather than defaulting to chatbots and efficiency gains, they argue that AI enables entirely new interaction models, from adaptive interfaces to agents that collaborate directly within products.

The conversation also explores how design systems and past UX practices lay the groundwork for this shift, while designers themselves must unlearn habits that limit creativity. Through their “sentient design sprint” and “minimum magical product” framework, Josh and Veronica offer a structured way to move from imagination to implementation.

At its core, this episode is a call for designers to reclaim their role as inventors—embracing AI not just as a tool, but as a new design material for creating more responsive, dynamic, and human-centered experiences.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

Why AI is a new “design material,” not just a productivity tool

How “practical magic” helps teams rethink what’s possible

Why designers are stuck focusing on process instead of product innovation

What adaptive, intelligent interfaces could look like in practice

How the “sentient design sprint” turns ideas into real solutions

What designers need to unlearn to work effectively with AI

Quick Reference Guide:
0:13 - Meet Josh and Veronika and learn about their new Rosenfeld Media book

3:14 - Harnessing magical thinking with AI

9:19 - Moving beyond process, speed, and efficiency

13:11 - How designers can transition from tooling to inventing

16:53 - Exciting places the magic could take us

23:40 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

25:52 - The Sentient Design Sprint

30:08 - The Sentient Triangle

33:36 - Is this applicable to non-traditional designers? Or what designers need to unlearn?

39:56 - Josh and Veronica’s gifts for listeners

 

Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Sentient Design: Crafting Intelligent Interfaces with AI by Josh Clark and Veronika Kindred https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/sentient-design/

Designing with AI 2026 - June 9, 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designing-with-ai/ 

Enchanted Objects: Innovation, Design, and the Future of Technology by David Rose https://www.amazon.com/Enchanted-Objects-Innovation-Design-Technology/dp/1476725640 

This is Running: A Celebration of the World of Running, Exploring the Culture, History, Brands, Races and People Behind It by Raziq Rauf https://www.amazon.com/This-Running-Celebration-Exploring-Culture/dp/1837330425?crid=10LYBYV063BKK&dib 

 

Quotes:
“We try to get in touch with the moments of emerging technology that help us to let go of the old ways of doing things and embrace the new, to think in terms of magical wishes.”

“A ‘magical moment’ is that machines can understand our intent beyond just what we know to type.” 

“The danger is we’re not endorsing magical thinking.”

“First we retool, then we reorganize to get our process around that. And then we invent.”

AI may be built on language—but according to Paul Ford, we’re still struggling to find the right words to describe what it’s actually doing to our work and thinking. Lou and Paul explore how language shapes our ability to understand—and responsibly use—AI.

Drawing on his dual background in programming and writing, Paul shares a set of evolving “rules” for working with AI: don’t let it replace your thinking, be wary of its tendency to flatter, and build systems that help you verify and structure its output rather than blindly trusting it. He explains how he uses AI to accelerate prototyping and research while still preserving human judgment, creativity, and accountability.

The discussion also zooms out to the broader cultural moment. From skeptical college students to industry hype cycles, Paul argues that people are more discerning than we often assume—and that AI’s impact will play out in diverse, deeply human ways.

Paul will be the opening speaker at the upcoming Designing with AI conference, where he’ll expand on these ideas and introduce new language for navigating this rapidly evolving space.

His takeaway? We’re not at the end of history—we’re in a messy, fascinating transition, and the best we can do is stay curious, thoughtful, and engaged.

 

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

Why shared language is critical for making sense of AI

How Paul Ford approaches “rules” for using AI responsibly

The risks of AI’s built-in flattery and “smooth” thinking

Practical ways to use AI for prototyping without losing control

Why verification systems matter more than trusting the model

How younger generations actually view AI (less hype, more pragmatism)

Why AI may be powerful—but not as historically radical as we think

How to stay grounded and thoughtful amid rapid technological change

 

Quick Reference Guide:
0:11 – Meet Paul

5:30 - Can language keep up with technological change?

12:48 – Paul’s rules for professionals

18:11 - Where is the slippery slope? Paul weighs in.

22:23 - Paul reveals his gift for the audience

23:03 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

25:18 - A story about some NY college students

29:21 - The anger and skepticism toward AI

35:18 - Wrapping up

 

Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Designing with AI conference - June 9, 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designing-with-ai/ 

Shell Game Podcast, by Evan Ratliff podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shell-game/id1753117762 

 

Quotes:
“In a world where product is very easy to spin up, the relationship is getting more and more important.” 

“You can really narrow your risk when you’re working with this stuff, and then you can let it go and see what it comes up with.” 

“There’s ways to mess with this stuff where I think you get to move forward and you get to think your thoughts without letting it take over.” 

“When it gets into that weird social relationship where it’s telling you that was a good idea, that’s where my alarm bells go off.”  

“The native buttering up of these technologies, I think is really dangerous because, God, you always want to hear it, especially when you're a boss.

As AI becomes easier and cheaper to deploy, designers face a new challenge: deciding not just what can be automated, but what should be. Lou Rosenfeld talks with Joy Kendi of Dalberg Design — and an upcoming speaker at the Designing with AI 2026 conference — about introducing AI into high-stakes systems where design decisions can directly affect access to healthcare, services, and critical resources.

Joy shares examples from her work in public health systems, including an AI concept intended to help community health workers prioritize patient visits. What initially seemed like an obvious efficiency gain quickly raised deeper concerns around incomplete data, shifting real-world conditions, and the irreplaceable role of human judgment and community trust. Rather than treating AI as a decision-maker, Joy argues for designing systems where AI supports — but does not override — human expertise.

Their conversation also explores how AI is reshaping the role of designers themselves. Joy makes the case that designers must move “upstream” in the process, helping define boundaries, risks, trust, and governance before automation decisions are made. 

 

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

How Joy Kendi defines “high-stakes” design systems

Why automation can fail in public health contexts

The risks of relying on incomplete or outdated data

Why AI should support human judgment, not replace it

How designers are moving upstream in AI decision-making

What human-centered AI governance can look like in practice

 

Quick Reference Guide:
0:11 - Meet Joy and learn about high-stake systems

3:26 - Joy’s backstory

6:10 - Seeing beyond the everyday facade

8:55 - Why you need the Rosenverse

11:08 - Designing responsible AI for high-stakes public health decisions 

16:06 - Why human judgment still matters in AI-assisted decision-making 

18:29 - Designers must shape AI boundaries, not just interfaces 

22:06 - Joy’s gift for listeners

 

Resources and Links from Today's Episode:
Designing with AI 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designing-with-ai/ 

 

Quotes:
“When I say high stakes systems, I mean systems where the design choices carry very real consequences beyond the typical interface or screen that a lot of designers are used to.”

“The hardest question is not just can we build this tool. It’s also deciding whether we should automate some of these complex social decisions at all.”  

“Even when the quality of data is good, and the data is available, there's more complexity to how human beings make decisions. A lot of that is also based on the social dynamics.”