The Violin Chronicles Podcast

The Violin Chronicles: Interview with Julian Thompson on His Antique Cello In this episode of the Violin Chronicles, we sit down with Julian Thompson, a distinguished cellist with the Australian Chamber Orchestra since 2006. Julian shares fascinating insights into the unique 1729 Giuseppe Guarneri cello he's been playing for the past eight years. We delve into the history, craftsmanship, and intricate details of this extraordinary instrument, including its complex provenance and distinctive features. Julian also discusses the quirks of playing such a historic cello, from its responsiveness to various climates to how its rich history impacts his playing style. Additionally, we touch upon the differences in construction techniques between Baroque and modern instruments, exploring how these methods influence their sound and playability. Join us for an in-depth look at one of the most remarkable cellos in existence and gain a deeper appreciation for the artistry involved in its creation and performance.   Transcript     Welcome back to the Violin Chronicles. In this episode, I'll be talking to Julian Thompson, cellist extraordinaire, who has been playing with the Australian Chamber Orchestra since 2006. Overly accomplished musician that he is. We are going to concentrate on his instrument in this interview. What is it? I hear you asking. Well, I will let him do the honours. Julian Thompson I'm Julian Thompson. I play cello with the Australian Chamber Orchestra for the last. 20 years. Linda Lespets Wow. And, and what, what instrument do you play? Julian Thompson So, I am lucky enough to have had in my hot hands for probably about the last eight years a beautiful 1729 Giuseppe Guari cello which I understand has a, possibly, has a slightly complicated providence. Linda Lespets Do you know when it sort of changed identity? Julian Thompson I, I don't know exactly when. I just know that there's been quite a lot of speculation that the hand of Jesu may have played a part in the, the, the table of the cello and maybe the scroll as well. So it's, it's that cello, I think it's really late. And there's another cello that certainly has a lot of Del Gesu a different form, apparently that one. This one's still in the, in the older form. The, the fathers, the Guarneri Filius Andrea, that's right. But the, the experts out there seem to say that yeah, because of some of the features, the specific features of, of the wood and the scroll and, and the, maybe the f holes as well. That they think that there's certainly the hand of Del Gesù in part of this cello, so that's pretty special. Linda Lespets Yeah. Yeah, because there's the other cello is the messias I think it's called. Mm-hmm. Where they say it's all Del Gesù Mm. So there's this sort of idea that he never made cello, but he has, he has indeed made a cello, a full one. And then why not? Bits of one? Well, I guess you can imagine if he, if he's around working in the workshop and Giuseppe's getting older, then you would imagine there would be, I guess an increasing amount of work done. Julian Thompson And there's also been talk about, and you, you probably know a lot more about this, about. Sort of illnesses at various points and whether that meant that Giuseppe Guarneri wasn't in the studio for a while and then, you know Del Gesù maybe had to take the reins there more, more solidly for a period. Linda Lespets  Yeah. So what happened was Del Gesu, he moved out of home when in 1722, he left.   And his brother Pietro of Venice had left in 1717 to go to Venice. That, so it was just him. His dad was kind of really bad with money and pretty much like very heavily indebted. So Del Gesù was like a young man. He was married and so he moved away. Because his, it was just a black hole basically working in his dad's workshop because he owed so much, so much money to so many different people. Yeah. So he moved away, but then in 1729, 1730, when your cello's made, he had, he was very ill. He went to hospital. And normally if you went to hospital, then it was like you were dying. Yeah. You didn't wanna hang around in a hospital. But then he sort of miraculously recovered. He comes home, but he was, he couldn't really do, he couldn't really make a full instrument again. Right. He could make scrolls, but that was it. And then Del Gesù sort of comes back to help his father because his parents are sort of in bit of dire straits at that point. Yeah. And so you can imagine that there was just this cello, it just needed the belly made and he finished it. And put the label in. And the other one, the other cello that is like a hundred percent Guarneri Del Gesù that they say it's a hundred percent Del Gesù The label is 1731. So that's two years later. Right. And that's the very last label of the father a Guarneri Filius Andrea. Okay. That we sort of know of. So maybe he was there and he was like, look, I'm just gonna make this cello. His dad, like dad's label him, and that, that's it, that's the end of the father's sort of official work output. But yeah it can, it can make sense that the belly was made by Del Gesù because the way instruments were made then are different to how they're made today. They were made in a different order of steps. So for example, today you'll make the rib structure.  You'll make the front and the back. So then you've got the body, and then you make the scroll. And you put the scroll. Like you encrust the scroll in. You stick the scroll on. But the Renaissance no, the Baroque Instruments, you made the rib structure, then you made the scroll, and then you nailed the scroll onto the rib structure. So you had sort of like looking like a bit like a tennis racket. Then with that frame, you made the back, you finished the back, you stuck the back on, and then the very last step was to make the belly, right? Yeah. Right. So maybe the, the, the scroll, the ribs and the back were made and the label was already in Maybe that label was already in. And then when Izzy comes back, like maybe. A year. Maybe if he comes back in 1730, say, he just goes, I'll just finish it. I'll make the, the belly. Yeah. And, and that's it. Get that thing, get that thing finished and sell it. Try and get, get out of a bit more debt. Yeah, and maybe there was a bit of, there was one more bit of cello because you can tell like, is the wood on your instrument? Julian Thompson It's, it's quite mismatching, isn't it? Like the, the ribs aren't the same as the back and the Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting cello for sure. It's, yeah, the, the front of it is, is, I think it's three pieces, but it's actually quite hard to see because the, the grain is really well matched. It's really fine grained on the front and kind of even across. But then the back is this really coarse grained. Linda Lespets  I think, is it Poplar? Is it, it's slab cut, isn't it? It's cut. Like, instead of being cut like a piece of cake, yeah, it's cut like. Like length, you cut straight across the Yeah, so it's, it's, it's a totally different texture of the back. Julian Thompson Yeah, really different. And it's got this, like, it's almost like someone, I'm not quite sure what's happened at the bottom, but it's like someone's left an iron on it. It's got a really different colour of varnish down the bottom. Much darker kind of the shape of an iron. Oh, okay. Yeah. I don't know if Yeah, what's happened there, but it's and then, yeah, the ribs are, the ribs are different again, so it's so they look pretty uniform, the back's its own thing. And then the front's its own thing. And the scroll, from what I remember, it's, it's, it's not maple, is it? I think it's beach, maybe different wood. Julian Thompson That's not maple, not maple. And it's almost like he was looking around and he just grabbed whatever bits of wood were hanging around. Mm-hmm. Absolutely it does. Although, although the front of it, I'm, I'm often, when I look at this cello, I'm amazed. Like, you, you really can't even see where the joins are because the grainage, it just seems really well matched, so that that part of it at least looks really deliberate. It's very fine. Linda Lespets Can I just see the belly again? Julian Thompson Yeah. Do you think it's almost, could it almost be like violin wood that they used for. Because normally you'd use like a thicker wood for a cello, wouldn't it? Like the wider green lines? Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, it does look more sort of violin, fineness of the grain, and it's all the way across it. I, I played at another, another Guarneri there for a bit at 1721 Guarneri, which it had much, much coarser grainage. It was interesting because it had, I think it had the grainage. I guess you'd kind of, I, I don't know if this makes any sense, but you kind of feel that intuitively you might want to put a grainage on the, on the base side and a finer grainage on the treble side, but I think that Yeah, that's what some makers do. Linda Lespets Yeah. They do that I think that Grancino actually had the opposite of that. So it had really coarse grainage on the treble side. Cool. And do you know so your cello's called the Weiss cello? We, yep. Is that like Weiss Bars? Not Weiss Bars no, not be confused with Weiss bars. No, no. So this, I was like, maybe he would, maybe that philanthropist like made all his money from ice cream. Julian Thompson No, no, this, so this cello was, given gifted to the ACO by Peter Weis, the Australian businessman and sort of fashion designer. Oh yeah. And he fashioned not ice cream. Yeah. And he, loved, he loved the cello, he played the cello as a younger man. And was always very interested in, you know, supporting the arts and supporting the cello in particular. And so Tippy, our principal cello found this cello at Bears must be about, about 16 years ago or something like that. And then Peter provided, the funds and the support to buy it and bring it back. Yeah, so we've had it since then. Linda Lespets Cool. Cool. Do you feel like playing on an instrument that has the, like the history that your one does, is it different to play sort of, is it different playing an instrument in the knowledge of the history that it's had as opposed to say, a modern instrument? Julian Thompson I think, yeah, look, I do think it's different. I think you pay more attention to the personality of the instrument. There's something about. The gravitas that the tool brings to the table that makes you pay attention. Maybe work a little bit harder to find the voice of that instrument or to match your voice with the voice of that instrument, whereas maybe with a more modern instrument, I mean, they've got their own personalities too, and they need, you know, playing in and treatment in a certain way. But maybe in some ways you feel a bit more like you. You bring your personality to that relationship and you try and shape the instrument to your personality because you know it's young and malleable, and hopefully it'll, it'll develop in, into the traits that you would like the instrument to have. You know this. Whereas playing this, you know, almost 300 year old Giuseppe Guarneri, it's got pretty strong ideas about what it likes to do and what it doesn't like to do. And then you sort of mould your playing quite a lot around its strengths. Yeah. Wow. Linda Lespets Do you reckon you're gonna do something for its 300th birthday? It's coming up. Julian Thompson Yeah. We're gonna have a massive party. It's gonna be a blinder. And the cello can just stand in the corner. Yeah. Give it a drink. Yeah, exactly. Little wedge, your little champagne. Yeah. Yeah, no, look, it's a really, it's a really beautiful cello. It, I think having the, the softer back gives it some really interesting characteristics. It certainly, it needs a lot of warming up and a certain kind of playing to make it really sound its best. And somehow I feel like, and this is just intuitive, I feel like that's partly to do with the, the strength of the wood in the back that needs a different kind of treatment. Linda Lespets  Yeah. Yeah. It'll probably have bigger thicknesses I imagine as well. Right. With slab cut wood, normally you have to leave it a bit thicker. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because it's less structurally strong than, so what's it been like, your journey playing with the instrument? What was it like when, you know, when you first, do you remember the first time you played on it? Julian Thompson  I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, that would've been in the early days when it came out to Australia and we all had a go on it then. And this cello. It's just one of those really celloy cellos, you know, there are cellos out there that are, that have a really sort of tenor voice. And there are some cellos out there that have a really, you know, a really basey voice. And I think this cello just has that archetypical, beautiful, strong, woody, rich cello voice in the kind of baritone register. Super silky, even across the board, beautifully woody textured. You can really hear the wood in this cello. Yeah, and it's a really sort of tactile cello to play. You can really get into it and feel a lot with your hands certainly more than some other cellos that just kind of go and do their own thing. Yeah, so for me, this cello really has a really sort of archetypical cello voice. Yeah. It has those sweet, sexy, low tones and you know, it's got all the, all the sweet tops as well. But this cello you have to up, especially up the top. It's one of those cellos that you can kind of dig into as hard as you want and can, and it'll still keep giving you rewards a bit like. I mean, I, I know some of these the Del Gesù violins, you have to attack them quite differently to the way you attack some of the str violins, for example, the Stradivari’s sort of go and you have to give them enough space to go. Whereas the del Gesù violins, you can really dig deep and just keep digging deeper and it just keeps punching out. The good sound, I, I think there are, it's probably the same with violins, but some cellos. You know, once you start the string speaking, it's, you have to be cautious with how much you manipulate the string vibrational sound because it can almost disturb the frequency that's resonating inside the belly. And so if, if you're not careful, you can actually make complications. Whereas this instrument has beautiful internal resonance, but you can really shape the notes a lot within each note without having to worry too much about that disturbance. Linda Lespets  And do you find does it change a lot when you travel? Because you do a lot of travel, international travel. Does it do, do you, do you, now that you've been with it for such a long time mm-hmm. Do you sort of know its little quirks, like what's gonna happen to it if you go somewhere really dry or humid? Julian Thompson Yeah, yeah. No, it's she's a bit of a fickle mistress in that regard I mean, look, all instruments are, but some more than others. Certainly this instrument, yes, I know, I know its habits quite well. So there are certain climates that the instrument really loves and sounds great in. And so the, the cooler climates and drier climates are when the instrument really s sits together and integrates its best. And yeah, so, so winter in Australia is great. Sort of shoulder seasons in Europe are great. What it really doesn't like. The hot, humid summers of Sydney. And so that's, that's often a bit of a bummer because it, it's just like, almost like you would imagine, it's like the wood becomes, it comes a bit soggy, you know? I mean, even though I keep it in a pretty climate controlled environment, it's still. It absorbs, it must absorb a, a decent amount of humidity from the air and it really changes how well the thing speaks. It still sounds great, but it's just not as easy to play. And then, and then of course you go from a hot, humid Australian summer to a cold European, dry European winter, and then the wood has to adjust to that again. So. As a player, you just have to be very sort of understanding and nurturing of the instrument and you know, push it as far as you think it can be pushed, but not, not push it too far and work around. Linda Lespets Yeah. Changes. Yeah. And so for people listening to this, I have a lot of American listeners, Uhhuh, you are in the ACO and your A CO rehearsal studios. Can you explain exactly where they are? Right. The Australian Chamber Orchestra. That's right. Rehearsal studios. Yeah. Julian Thompson So yeah, the Australian Chamber Orchestra Rehearsal spaces Now. Just on the far side of the, of, of Harbor Bridge. Of the Harbor Bridge, yep. The harbor bridge. And out on a pier. So actually over water, over Sydney Harbor. You're literally on the water. On the water. If you like drill a hole down, you're in the water. That's right. Yeah. So it is a potentially humid environment. It's all Look, it's all, it's all climate controlled inside. Yeah. It's a brand new building, right? Brand new building. It's beautiful. Sydney is. Sydney does get pretty humid over summer, but like, I mean, I lived in Indiana for a while and you know, I was very surprised the first summer I had in Indiana it was, it was like a hundred percent humidity in 35 degrees. It was a total surprise. And winter was like minus 10 and snow. Yeah. At the same time, maybe, you know, the fact that it goes through these changes, it's part of how the instrument ages, I suppose. If it's, yeah, I don't know. I don't know the difference. It'd be interesting to see the difference. Like, it's hard, you can't really do a control like every instrument's different, but to have a, you know, instruments that sit in museums all the time Mm. And are not particularly played, but have really controlled temperature as opposed to one that's out and about. Julian Thompson Yeah. Yeah. Well, it, you have to imagine it must be, these instruments have seen a lot of seasons, a lot of different, playing a lot of. Possibly fellow periods of not being played that much for a while, and that all has to play a role. I mean, you must see it with, with, with, you know, all the instruments that, that you see that these instruments, if, if they're not played for a decent period of time, even weeks or sometimes days or months, when you come back to them, they, they sound really different. Like they need to be played back in. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I, I always think that, you know, the cumulative vibrations of almost 300 years of playing different things at different pictures with different strings in different places, it has to play a role on the evolution of that wood and how it fits in that form. Linda Lespets Yeah. They're almost like little living beings and it's made with an organic product and yeah. And every. It's, I like the fact that it's almost impossible to do to approach it scientifically. Mm-hmm. You can't have, there's no control. Every instrument is different. You can control things to a certain point, but at the end of the day, it's like saying, you know, all my kids are the same. Yeah. Like, 'cause I'm, they're all, every instrument is different, will react differently depending on what's happening to it. And you could, you could use the same materials, same person, same thing. You'll end up with something completely different. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Do they all have their own DNA which I like. Julian Thompson I mean, that's, that's one of the joys though too of, of playing these old instruments is that, you know, they are a bit moody and you have, with that moodiness, you have days where, you know, you really have to think hard about how you get the best out of the instrument that day. And other days though, when obviously the instrument's feeling great, when it can just do whatever, and it sounds fantastic. I don't know. I feel like if you had an instrument that just sounded amazing all the time, which, you know, these instruments do sound great all the time, but within a variety that then the responsibility's entirely with you. And that's tough. You never blame the instrument. That's right. Right. Now we, we did this crazy crazy film shoot for the  ACO over in, Narlu station over in the northwest of WA for this film, this surf film that we were making at the time, as you do as a chamber orchestra. And as part of that, we played a gig over there and it's, it's like full desert meets the sea kind of country. And we played a gig in the old shearing shed. It's an old sheep station over there. And played a gig for a bunch of, you know, fishermen and surfers in a shearing shed on Nalu Station. That was pretty cool. Was it hot? Man, they get hot. It was so hot. It was brutal. Did you get some fleece? Did they give you a bit of.   Sheep F fleece? Nah, no fleece. Were they, they weren't shearing, were they? No, not shearing at that time. We did get some great footage and made a pretty pretty bang and film, so that was cool. Can you see it still? Yeah, it's out there. The reef, check it out. Not to the reef. Yeah, the reef. Yeah. It does look pretty much every, every summer season I need to get the edges reglued in some spot or another. So that's just a yearly cycle. That's, yeah. That's crazy. So that could be your sweat. You could have corrosive sweat. I've heard, is it up That is corrosive sweat? Is it up the top there? No, it tends to acidic. You could have acidic sweat. Yeah. No, it's got, so this one has a little plastic overlay. Oh. On that, That's it tends to be. And so this is something I wonder about too, that different people and how they play, create different stresses on different instruments. 'cause I find, oh yeah, the, the cellos that I play maybe because of how I play and I, I sometimes I play a lot of p cardo stuff and, they always seem to open in about the same spot. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And like maybe your bow stroke and like the bits that you make vibrate on the instrument. That's right. And it's on, it's on these, these granaries, but also on my modern instruments as well. And they often come open in exactly the same spot and need to be re reglued every season. Ah, that's so interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you're like, yeah, no, it's my, my, your style of ungluing. That's it. Yeah. I'd like to thank Jillian for speaking to me and taking the time to tell us about his instrument. Then this is the end of this episode, but join me for the next episode where we continue on with the life and times of our hero, Guarneri Del Gesù.   Remember to sign up and subscribe so you'll always know when new episodes are coming out. And a big thank you to my Patreons. Once again, if you're not a member of Patreon, go over to patreon.com/the violin chronicles and sign up and for extra content and extra episodes that you won't get on the other platforms.    

In this episode we look at the mysterious years following Del Gesu's departure from his fathers workshop and his early independent work. This is a period in his life when our hero is in his prime and the instruments are all his own. The army is back in town and Giuseppe is putting new labels in his violins that today have all but disappeared, what statement is he trying to make here? Transcript Welcome back to the Violin Chronicles podcast. A show dedicated to the stories of history's greatest violin makers. My name is Linda Lespets, and if you haven't already done so, I would encourage you to sign up to Patreon, that's Patreon.com/the violin chronicles, where you can get extra episodes and extra content and to support the podcast if you felt that it has been useful and that you've learned so It would be very much appreciated. But here in this third episode, we're gonna jump in and have a look at what our violin maker is up to. So picture this, it's the early 1730s in Cremona. Our hero, the young Giuseppe Guarneri, is standing before the altar in the Church of San Pantaleone By special decree with the usual bands of marriage conveniently skipped. He weds Katarina, a German woman from Vienna, right under the watchful eyes of the Church's Vicar General. The witnesses are nobles and neighbours and the ceremony formal and blessed. Yet beneath her there is a hint of scandal because this wasn't just any marriage. Giuseppe Guarneri had married a foreigner from among what many locals saw as the occupying forces, and as if that weren't enough to raise eyebrows in Cremonas narrow streets he wasn't about to settle down at the family home on Piazza San Domenico, no Guarneri Del Gesu and his new bride were leaving. His brother had written from Venice boasting of steady work and success making instruments. Meanwhile, back home, Del Gesu’s father, the elder, Giuseppe, was drowning in debt and dragging the family workshop down with him. The house was falling apart, the business barely alive, and Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu knew that if he stayed, he'd sink with it. So he packed up his tools, took his young wife, and vanished from Cremona for a while. Or at least vanished from records. Where did he go? Honestly, no one's quite sure. These are what I like to call the wilderness years. A time when the trail goes cold and speculation begins and yeah, I like to speculate. Now remember this was the same era as Antonio Stradivari's Golden Period when Stradivari's instruments were gracing the salons of princes and patrons across Europe. But while Stradivari's clients were wealthy and insulated from the region's economic troubles, the rest of Cremona was in deep depression. The market for fine instruments had shrunk, and the city's famed liutaio were competing for a handful of buyers. Del Gesu must have wondered, what's the point of making violins here when no one's buying? So he didn't stop entirely. He continued to make the occasional instrument, but this time he refused to put his father's label inside. He wanted no association with the elder Giuseppe Guarneri, whose reputation was well, less than spotless. The old man owed money to half the city. His health was failing and his name wasn't one to build a future on, Guarneri Del Gesu’s new labels read. Giuseppe Guarneri Andrea Nepos (Giuseppe Guarneri, grandson of Andrea). He deliberately skipped his father's name, linking himself instead to his grandfather, the revered student of the great Nicolo Amati. It was a bold move, a quiet act of rebellion, and a statement of identity. I'm my own maker and I belong to the legacy of excellence, not the shadow of debt. He probably knew people would talk that it wasn't proper to make violins under a new name while his father still lived. But Del Gesu wasn't one to bow to convention. He had a new life, a new wife, and he had plans even if that meant wandering into obscurity for a while. And so began the lost years of Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu. For the next six years, our violin maker drops off the radar. He and Katarina may have left Cremona to try their luck elsewhere as for his father, Giuseppe, well, not much is done in his workshop for the next few years. He's unwell his sons have left him, and it's hard these days to get any clients. I mean, he didn't stop completely. Things had just slowed down a lot. In 1724 alone in his workshop, Giuseppe Guarneri Filius Andrea made a violin. The wood for the belly was from the same tree that Stradivari was making some of his violins from. Of course, the wood merchant would've passed at Stradivari’s workshop first, so he could get the best pieces before leaving him what was left over typical. Or did Antonio Stradivari have pity on his ailing neighbour, abandoned by his sons, and, and give him some wood to make an instrument and pay off some outstanding debts? A few years later, our Liutaio Guarneri Del Gesu reappears in town archives, but this time as a property developer. In 1728, Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu and his wife are now living in cramped quarters in the parish of San Nazario but in the mind of Del Gesu, this would not be for long because he had a plan. He was going to make some money, and not by making instruments, but on a much larger scale. He would renovate an old building, an inn called the Austeria del Mori Mori's Inn, just around the corner from where he and his wife are now living. Finally, the couple would have a place of their own. Okay. It was a bit of a fixer upperer but compared to living in an overcrowded house with a bunch of other families, the idea of this inn was a luxury. Through old friends from his days growing up in the Piazza San Dominico, Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu learnt of this establishment coming onto the market. And the owners were a well-known noble family in Cremona. The Mellelupe de Soragna, this noble family who lived in a town northwest of Cremona called Ludi, came down one evening and struck a deal with the young Guarneri couple. In October 1728, on the night of the 14th, after the hour of Vespers and with three lamps lit to illuminate the room, pretty fancy, they granted Giuseppe Guarneri Junour a letter of investiture. He would now have a perpetual lease for the sum of 100 lire per year. He was now the master of a large three story building with front and back exits and a centre courtyard or garden with the front of the inn facing the street. The inn belonged to Countess Victoria Meleloupe, after she inherited it from her father. It was a bit of a hot potato, really, because her sister was also laying claim to the property. So there was a family dispute going on, but in the meantime, why not lease it out to a young man willing to fix up the old place? It was falling down as it was at the moment. What could possibly go wrong? So Del Gesu takes on this dilapidated inn that needs a lot of TLC and funds, the repairs that, that he has to pay out of his own pocket. He can't move into the building just yet with his wife, and so they move into a house not far. When Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu has signed this lease just a few days ago, the agreement was perpetual and that meant he could renew it every year. He could really see himself here and to secure the bargain. There were clauses that included his and Katerina's future children and heirs. They were still not blessed with children, but they would come and they would all live in this comfortable home together. Here we are at a stage in this young couple's life where they are youthful, optimistic, and hopeful for a family. And to be able to run this inn as a business, if only they could fix it up enough, or were they thinking of having a workshop and living in the in themselves. The Guarneris will never have children or they, they may have planned to run the Inn. There is no evidence that they ended up doing this. Del Gesu is not a member of the Innkeepers Corporation. Even after he took on the lease, and this would have been compulsory if he wanted to open the austeria del Mauri as an inn. For the next year, Guarneri Del Gesu started to work renovating the building, but after months of toiling away, he realized that this was indeed hard work and he had to pay for the repairs himself. He just didn't have the cash for this to work. The dreams of renovating the Inn were short-lived, but he did know someone who could be interested in taking over the project. His current landlord, Giacomo Ciao, Ciao was a wealthy wood merchant originally from Milan, but he also dealt in property. Now you see wood was an essential material at the time in making well, almost anything. There was not an enormous choice of materials in a world where plastic did not exist, and metals were in short supply and far more costly than timber. So if you were dealing in timber, it was a sure thing why he had recently bought himself a house with the proceeds of a large supply of wood.   So Giuseppe sells his lease to his landlord, and as we still don't know what our violin maker was up to in the next few years, perhaps he stayed on renovating the inn in the employ of his landlord Ciao. Guarneri was paid 300 Lira for the work he had already done on the building. And now Ciao saw an opportunity for a bit of property development himself. He buys the Inn outright from the feuding family, the Meleloupe, for 2,400 lira, and three years later, he flips the property selling the Austeria as a house for 4,170 liter. He would've been able to supply all the timber necessary for the works, and this would account for Del Gesus's whereabouts in this period. Here is Giuseppe, a young man full of energy, having a break from his father's disorganized finances and earning a salary for himself. And although he is out making an independent living for himself, unlike his father who was spiralling further into debt. He would've seen that renovating buildings was not the most effective way of earning a living. Well, for him anyway, for the years of work he did on the Inn, he was paid 300 lira. And to put this into perspective, Stradivari was selling his violins for 150 Lyra a piece. He was nonetheless still making the occasional instrument to make ends meet. Or was this the work of his wife Katerina? You know, just putting that out there. During these wilderness years in which we don't quite know what Guarneri Del Gesu was up to, we believe he used the label, Giuseppe Guarneri, Andrea Nepos. Today, only one genuine example of this label is known to us in the Kubler violin of 1728, both the early 19th century musicologist and biographer Francois Joseph Fetis, and found in the meticulous notes of Count Cosio instrument connoisseur of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Both mentioned these labels found in dozes instruments.  The young Giuseppe that is Del Gesu’s relationship with his father was a complicated one. He mused as he glued his label into yet another violin. In a town this size, it was almost impossible to distance yourself from family, but he did not want to be confused with his father. The older Giuseppe. These were his instruments and as an act of independence, he had had printed at the local, printed his very own labels. Did he want to be connected to his father by stating that he was his son? No, not really. How did he feel about his father running the family business into the ground? Only just this year, he sold off a part of the house to settle debts that he was never going to fully repay. No, he would not be confused with his father or even mention him, but Andrea, his grandfather, well, there was a man who had made something of himself building up the family fortune and learning from the very best there was, Nicolo Amati, he would gladly advertise that he was the grandson of this man, Giuseppe Guarneri Andrea nepos, (Giuseppe Guarneri, grandson of Andrea). This was his own independent work in these years without the influence of his father over his shoulder. Fun fact, in the past, people had believed that there was a second Giuseppe Guarneri because of these labels. In Italian, the word nepos can mean either nephew or grandson. I mean, how confusing is that? And so these instruments with the Giuseppe Guarneri Andrea Nepos label were thought to be by yet another maker, but were in fact the grandson, not the nephew of Andrea. Now to get a feel for the musical environment Del Gesu was finding himself in we have to consider a few things. Yes, we have left the Renaissance and we are well into the baroque With composers pulling on emotions and experimenting with contrast and tonal harmony, you have to think of your everyday  Giovanni Smith, he was not basking in classical music on a day-to-day basis. There were so many other avenues for music in daily life. Down at the local tavern, you would have heard ballads of love loss and local gossip played to, well-known tunes passed on orally from musician to musician. There was dance music, not like dance music, but music for dancing. Simple versions of jigs and bourres for festivals and celebrations. And then you had your military and professional music that a town such as Cremona would've been all over   what with all the soldiers garrison there on and off over the years. And it would've been also to all these people that the Guarneri workshop would've catered for. Then his father fell ill again. His health had been a fragile thing these last few years, but now it looked really serious. He had been sent to the hospital and, and everyone knew what that meant. His chances of coming out alive were very slim to non-existent, but miracle of miracles. The man survived. Perhaps his family had prayed to the Saint Teresa, who the family for years have printed on their instrument labels. She is the patron saint of headaches and illness. The elder Giuseppe Guarneri came home in a much weakened state and the shock of seeing his parents in this vulnerable position saw the younger youthful Giuseppe Del Gesu back in San Domenico helping out his parents. The year is 1730 and Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu has come to a turning point in his life. He has been married to Katherina for eight years now, and they still have no children. Perhaps they will just have to accept that this is the way things will be. They will never have a brood of little ones buzzing around them as they work as Innkeepers. Katerina in particular, must have felt somewhat isolated, not having a family of her own. The relationship with her mother in-law appears strained at the best of times from the beginning. They had never lived with Giuseppe's parents like so many families would have done in those days. Perhaps the fact of her being a foreigner had never sat well with the in-laws and now there were no grandchildren in sight throughout the ages infertility has been a source of shame for women, even though it may not have been their own fault. It takes two to tango. Anyway Del Gesu had to do something to support his parents, but still keep a certain distance. So he sets up a workshop in downtown Cremona where he will throw himself into his work like he has never done before. Setting up business in the old family workshop was no longer an option. That space was rented out to a shoemaker now and who knew how much money his father owed to creditors. It was best for everyone that they leave that place alone. In 1731, Katarina was now 30 and Giuseppe her husband 34, they've left their cramped lodgings and moved to the parish of San Bernardo into a building with six other families. Okay, so it was still a bit of a squeeze, but this new accommodation was closer to the centre of town on a main thoroughfare. It was a lively commercial area and quite close to the Casa Guarneri and Del Gesu’s parents. So for the last 10 years, since 1720, Guarneri Del Gesu had been making a few instruments here and there. But now this period from 1730 or 1731 onwards, he was concentrating all his efforts on making instruments. This is the beginning of the future Del Gesu. And so for a while our young violin maker disappears from the records. He has laid down his tools for now, his hands, perhaps busy with timber and plaster instead of maple and spruce. And in those last years I can imagine Giuseppe Guarneri trading the work bench for the dust of renovation, dreaming of stability of a future with Katerina, a home, a family, and maybe even a business of their own. But fate as ever has other plans. The inn he hoped would bring security instead brings well, look, it's, it's a reno and whenever renovation's ever gone well hmm. And when his father's health falters once more, Guarneri Del Gesu finds himself drawn back, back to the bench, to the smell of shavings and the craft he and his brothers were born into. Next time we'll follow him as he rediscovers his true calling. Well, it's really kind of clawing him back. The wilderness ears end and a new chapter begins the one that will forge the legend of Del Gesu. Join me in the next episode where the violins return and so does Giuseppe Guarneri. Thank you for listening to this episode, but for the Patreon members, it's not over.   We have extra things coming up. I'll be talking to Antoine about more Del Gesu characteristics to look out for in a violin or to copy. If you're making one, and I have also added some parts of interviews I've had with my lovely guests that I thought was a bit too oh la la to put in the free public version. And if you are not already a Patreon member, head on over to patreon.com/the Violin Chronicles and sign up for extra episodes and no ads. I know. Amazing. And you'll also be supporting me to plough on and make more of these shows for you.  I'd like to thank my already patrons because it's all happening because of you. I'm so grateful for the support you have given me. See you next time.

Giuseppe gets married leaves home and a mystery ensues, what did Del Gesu do, and where did he go for those "lost years"? Find out in this second episode of the life of Giuseppe Guarneri "Del Gesu". With special guests Jonathan Marolle, Joe Bein and Christopher Reuning. Transcript Jonathan Marolle  I'll say that there is a paradox when talking about Guarneri del gesu because I don't wanna shock anybody, but if you look at the work, you'd say that he's probably, well to me, he is probably, in terms of craftsmanship, the less talented maker of the family. But yet he's the most famous and one can see the prices of instruments by Guarneri del gesu that rich, like crazy, crazy amount of money. We have to try to explain that. And I guess that what makes Guarneri del gesu so amazing for musicians and also for makers and value makers and dealers and restorers, is that. There is some sort of a, he is a legendary maker. There's so many stories about him, more or less true. And there is some sort of, he was a crazy maker. If you look at the instruments that he has made, especially at the very end of his career, it's so crazy. It's so extravagant that I think this plays a part of this this myth of Guarneri del gesu. And also we have to mention the tone quality, because eventually that's a, that's a musical instrument. So these were made to perform music and the tone quality is is beyond question. It's these are great instruments. Strange figure of the crazy artists, you know, let his, ideas flowing and crafting crazy instruments while on the opposite you have Stradivari who is the, also the other top maker that was so careful, that was so clean, neat, and precise in his making. So you have to, yeah, it's like two sides of a coin, you know, or the ying and the yang the, the wisdom and the, and the craziness. And that was the lovely Jonathan Marolle of the workshop Vatelot-Rampal in Paris, and you'll be hearing more from him later. Thank you for joining me on the Violin Chronicles. My name is Linda Lepets and welcome back to this season and episode two of the Life of Giuseppe Guarneri, AKA del gesu. If you've enjoyed this journey through the world of the Guarneris, remember you can dive deeper and access bonus content by visiting patreon.com/the violin chronicles. In the last Patreon episode, we heard from Peter Biddulph tell his story of archival discovery and present the life of a lesser known Stradivari Hmm. Before we start, I would like to say a very big thank you to our sponsor for this episode, Libby Summers of Stamford Strings and the brazenose range of instruments she has created. You can check them out on the website, brazenose violins.co.uk. That's B-R-A-Z-E-N-O-S-E violins.co.uk. But for now, we are going to jump straight back into the story of our hero, Giuseppe Guarneri del gesu. There she was this exotic creature from a far off land with her accent in strange ways. And although she was not the nice local girl, his mother kept hinting at, she was the woman, Guarneri or Giuseppe was going to marry whether they liked it or not. And no, he was not going to leave for foreign parts with his bride like his brother. Don't worry, he assured his mother. He would stay in town for now, not that it would do him any good. The family home and finances were crumbling into disrepair and his lovely Catarina did not have an impressive dowry that would save the family coffers just yet. On October the third, 1722 in the Parish of San Pantaleone, Bartolomeo or Giuseppe married Katinarina Rotta, the daughter of an Austrian imperial soldier. She was German from the city of Vienna. “By special decree by the most reverend Vicar General, Banns having been omitted, as appears in the file, Guiseppe Guarneri of the Parish of San Matteo of this city of Cremona, the son of Guiseppe and Barbara Franchi, husband and wife, and Cate Caterina Rota, German formerly of the city of Vienna, were joined in matrimony by their vows before the church and blessed by me Ignazio Cavall, parish priest of the church of San Pantaleone, her unmarried status proven as appears in the file. The witnesses present were the noble Dominus Fabrizio Salerno Guarna, the son of Giovanni Battista of the parish of San Donato and Guiseppe Brocardo, the son of Francesco of the parish of San Pantaleone in the above mentioned city.” And now we are entering into what I would call the wilderness years. It's for our protagonist because not only was our young dashing Guarneri del gesu marrying a foreign girl of the occupying forces, but now the couple would not be living with the family on the Piazza San Dominica. No, indeed not. Anywhere but there. So my name is Jonathan Marolle I am a luthier, violin maker, restorer, and expert, as they say. I'm the co-owner of the Maison Vatelot-Rampal in Paris. A workshop that was established in, 1909 in fact,sSo I've been working in the shop since 2004 and since one year and a half. And I have the chance to own this beautiful place with with my associate and friend Cecile Paumier. Speaking to Jonathan Marolle we spoke about Guarneri del gesu’s early period of making in the 1720s when Guarneri del gesu himself was in his early twenties. Jonathan Marolle  In the twenties where he, he started, so he was the son of a maker, the grandson of a maker. So it's, just the, the, the normal way. So we don't know exactly where it was in the twenties, but in the, so in 1720 something because he, he's not really appearing on the census records, but we assume that he was living on his own and assisting his father in the making of instruments. You can, you can clearly see. Details of proof that it was actually making or taking part of the process of making the instrument. When you look at instruments like the Krasner or this early, early violins that we nowadays tend to consider as early Giuseppe Guarneri del gesu, why there were some, you know, years ago considered as late filius Andrea. So you can see his hand in these instruments.  This is Richard Tognetti of the Australian Chamber Orchestra playing on the Carrodus Guarneri del gesu from 1743. He's playing the Siciliano from Barch’s violin Sonata. Guarneri del gesu gets word from his brother in Venice that he's doing well, making instruments in his new job, and del gesu just cannot see how he can possibly support a wife and family if he stays with his parents who are up to their ears in debt. And the workshop on the brink of bankruptcy. So he takes his young bride and goes, well, to be honest, we don't really know where he goes, but leave home he does. And is there really any point in making violins in Cremona with so many others doing it and not that many clients in these times of depression? You might be wondering, these are the years of Stradivari's golden period and the whole region is in depression. Well, Stradivari's clients appeared to be amongst the upper classes. And in times of crisis, do things really hit the ultra rich that hard? Apparently, not so much that they would have to stop buying instruments. Surely. But for Giuseppe Guarneri del gesu just now, he was thinking maybe he could try his hand at something different. Okay. So he was making the odd violin here and there because he still needed to earn a living somehow. But he was not going to put his father's labels in his instruments, no. In fact, he was not even going to mention the older Giuseppe Guarneri. It was not like he was the most reliable character around town. He owed money to goodness, knew how many people who would probably never see a lira from him again. The family home was falling down around him, and his health was not looking promising at all.   The labels Giuseppe Guarneri del gesu would put on his instruments in these years would still proclaim him to be of the famous Guarneri family, but he would have Giuseppe Guarneri Andrea Nepos. Giuseppe Guarneri, grandson of Andrea, printed on his labels, bypassing his father and making reference to his grandfather, the student of the famed Nicolo Amati. You can't get much better than that. He knew this was not the norm, and he would probably be criticized for going off and making instruments elsewhere than his father's workshop, seeing as his father was still alive. But it was out of the question for him to stay in the family home, dooming another generation to his father's bad decisions. And before we continue, we're going to take a short break to talk to our sponsor for this episode. Libby Summers the creator of the Brazenose range of violin's, violas, and cellos. Here she is. My name's Libby Summers, and I'm. Director of Stamford Strings and Brazenose violins. Stamford Strings is a violin shop in Stamford in Lincolnshire in the United Kingdom. And Brazenose Violins is our own range of instruments that we launched last year. The story of Brazenose violins really starts with, with my story both as a player and a violin maker. I trained as a violin maker at Newark School of Violin making, and I was trained to make, you know, Stradivari models. Studied the great masters, et cetera. Then I was sort of thrown into the kind of commercial world of having to run a shop and meeting lots of different customers and finding out what they want. So I started by sort of covering lots of different bases with all types of different instruments. But time and time again, people were asking for something that I didn't really feel existed in the market. There was a bit of a gap between the generic student model and the handcrafted artisan model. That's where Brazenose violins came in. I worked really hard to find a workshop that I could work with who would make beautiful violins for me based on Cremonese models, and then we could adapt them and finish them and set them up to professional standards, so that really good violin that have with great sound and playability. These are all handcrafted in Europe. Linda Lespets  yeah, that really resonates with me, that gap in the market. So there, there are new instruments and it's the, what do you call it? The, the miles. You don't have so many miles on your instruments. It comes from Europe. It's made in Europe. The three little points I Remarked about this range is the, the quality, the sustainability, and the affordability that you're promoting with this range? Absolutely, and I'd just like to say from an historical point of view, this has been done before in the 15th and 16th centuries. We have inventories of. Warehouses almost in Venice of lutes, lute parts that would be imported from Fusen, from the Alps to Venice, where the Venetian lute makers would finish them, vanish them, set them up and and sell them on. So it's this tradition in instrument making and the commerce that is just carrying on. It's been done for hundreds of years. Libby Summers  The wood for the Brazenose violin is European wood. The workshop that I work with, they have been managing the forest as well and getting the wood from the forest so that it's all very closely linked and they're right next to each other. I love that element. That's sustainability as well. As you say, not so many miles in the process, and we know exactly where the wood comes from. It's all traceable. Linda Lespets Who would be interested in a Brazenose instrument? Libby Summers Actually, it's quite interesting because it's more people than I thought. So the kind of target audience was, you know, young people who advanced players, perhaps going off to conservatoire. Haven't got the budget for a fully handmade instrument needs something with great sound and playability. So that's my kind of target audience and I'm passionate about that audience because I used to be a violin teacher, so that's really close to my heart. I'm really passionate about them having great instruments to play. But the instruments also appealing to an amateur adult audience as well. People who perhaps play the local orchestra are really passionate about their music, but again, don't want to. Or don't have the funds to spend on that high level instruments. So that's proving popular with both groups of people at the moment. Linda Lespets And I know here, for example, we have sometimes the opera is done outside and not everyone is comfortable taking their very expensive instrument outside. Often a lot of professional musicians will have a second. That they still want to sound good, but they don't have a mortgage on. Libby Summers Yes, absolutely. I have actually heard a couple of teachers recently say, oh, maybe I should get myself a Brazenose cello or Brazenose Violin for my teachings. Linda Lespets We've seen a few teachers who are trying to hold it together after a student has tripped over their instrument. Libby Summers And yeah, if that's exactly the kind of situation that you could avoid if you had, a cheaper instrument. Yeah. And phones, phones on music stands, man. Oh my God, I've repaired a couple of cellos that had a phone or a laptop, an iPad, go straight through the rib. Linda Lespets That's not fun. Yeah, I'm surprised at how I feel like it's the 21st century, you know, the repair 'cause and I feel like, you know how sometimes you get that on older instruments, you see like this black blob where the person had obviously played and smoked at the same time. Libby Summers Yeah, yeah. I had one of those in the, in the shop yesterday. Yeah. Big, huge black blob on it. Linda Lespets Yeah. So someone like myself and my husband, we have a small workshop and we can't keep a big, a huge stock of instruments and we like to just have a few of these mid-range instruments. Would your instruments be sort of an ideal solution to the smaller sized workshops? Looking to have just a small range of the European. Yeah. Yes, most definitely. Yeah, so I, I've already spoken to a few people who are interested and I would love to get those instruments out there to more people. It's nice to spread the love around and it's, it's all priced into to do that so that they can make a reasonable amount of money when they sell it as well.   How much could people expect to pay for a Brazenose instrument? So, in 2025, the entry level Violin is 2,975. The entry level cello is 7,500 pounds. Yes, there's different models and different ranges. They're different prices, so they just sort of go up from there, really. Okay, excellent. To find out more about this range of instruments, you can visit the [email protected]. That's B-R-A-Z-E-N-O-S-E, violin.co.uk. And we're back here. I speak to Christopher Reuning, expert of Reuining and Sons in Boston, an all round guy to go to for the really in-depth stuff on the Guarneris. He's seen a lot of instruments and done a whole lot of research on the subject, and even I was impressed with the level of nerdism we descended to. Christopher Reuning Putting a hard line between what's made by Guarneri del gesu and his father's shop and things he made after he left his heart, because there, there are no del gesu labels at all. They don't exist, but, and there's very few affiliates, labels too. So, and then even if there were original, labels, you know, they, people have changed them. They've upgraded the violins to Guarneri del gesu. So how are you gonna say these ones were made before and after 22. So I would say my logic tells me that he was not a terribly active, professional, violin maker to the extent that he became later. So let's talk about his productivity. That's one and a half instruments per year up until 1720. Soft date, 17, 27 or 28. Then he introduces a new form, which corresponds with this violin that has the nepos label. This is the important point. He made a violin that. He calls himself Nepos of Andrea. So he's referring not to his father, but he is referring to his grandfather. So that's an interesting thing because he is, he is purposely distancing himself from his father for whatever reason. Probably the fact that his father was, you know, financially insolvent, losing the family. He was trying to separate himself and put, attach himself to the earlier generation. So. Count Cosio talked about this label in his diaries, and we know from that that those instruments were made 27, 28 around that period. And so the one existing instrument with a nepos label is the important thing. And there's another eight. Let's see, violins of that type, all with del gesu labels. So they could have been made before 27, 28, 29, or they could have been made all during that, that period. I don't know. 'cause only one with a label like that. Linda Lespets So now let's just stop for a minute and we're gonna have a talk about the word nepos, that Guarneri put in his labels. Now this word confusingly, can mean nephew or grandson, but it can also mean a, a descendant and someone, someone of your family. Hence the word nepotism that we use in English. It actually comes from the mid 17th century French word nepotisme that the French in turn had taken from the Italian Nepos, from Nepote or nephew. And we use the word nepotism in the way we do today because since the Middle Ages, Catholic Popes and bishops often appointed their air quotes nephews who were frequently their illegitimate sons to positions of power such as cardinals. This practice known as nepotism, means you show favoritism to family members. Think about it and use it in a sentence this week. Here's a hint. If you know someone in a position of power who likes giving important jobs to family members or very close friends, that's where you can slide it in.  I spoke to Joe Bein about this middle period when Giuseppe Guarneri had left his father's workshop and was out there somewhere working for a few years, and before he comes back to support his parents and those instruments that are made and the labels that may have been placed in them and and what's happened to them now. Yeah. Well I find the period like from the twenties to the thirties, I find that quite interesting. I find that quite mysterious. He's making period. And that's the period where he has those labels, doesn't he? Which I'm thinking maybe have been taken out historically. People have taken out. Yeah. Do you think people took those out? Joe Bein Not live, just pictures of it. And so yeah. Unfortunately, I think that that label might be like the label. Workshops, however you wanna put it, where it just was, you know, those things came and came out with far too much regularity, you know, for those of us who care about them now and wanna look and be like, what was that exactly? Linda Lespets Yeah, because do, I'm wondering, I'm wondering if people didn't understand that it was del gesu and they wanted to put a del gesu label in and that's why they were taken out. Joe Bein Yeah, I mean, that's the simplest explanation. It's usually the right one, you know, and again, like with the Sotto diciplina label and the Stradivari instruments, it's like, no, it's, unfortunately, it's more commercially advantageous to have something that's labeled Stradivari than Stradivari's workshop. Or made under the, under the tutelage of, Linda Lespets  and when I saw like the Filius Andrea, he was so in, he was basically bankrupt and he owed a lot of money to a lot of people. And I'm wondering if del gesu put that label in so that, you know, if he'd continued to put his father's label in, maybe creditors could have come and taken, taken it like said. Joe Bein I think yeah, I mean that's kind of a, I mean, that's a Serafin thing like actually the violin over my shoulder here, that's a Serafin. And it's not just a serafin thing, but of course, like even back then, just like we are today, it's like, you know, people wanted to pay less taxes and, you know, there are go thrillers that just were never were never labeled. Or there's these Goffrillers that have Bergonzi labels in them. There are, you know, there are Serafin out there that the endocrinology puts them. You know, the one over my shoulder is called the Sacconi Loan Expo and it's one of the two or three finest Linda Lespets and it how did that name is quite funny. Joe Bein It's pretty self-explanatory. Sacconi loan. I know. Well, so there was a, so basically like there was a, in like the early seventies in New York, they threw a giant birthday party for Simone Sacconi. Okay. And, and basically like all the, all the people, all the, in the trade in the United States, like, well what would you do if you threw a birthday party?   For Sacconi I, I forget if it was his 80th birthday, I think, or something like that. And it's like, well, what would you do? It's like, well, you'd call all your friends and they would bring over like all the best instruments in bows. So like the Hellier was there and there were very fine things there, and that was there or that Serafin was there as well. And there were beautiful bows. And there's a book you can buy it, but Serafin for example, like he put, he seemingly put labels in his instruments that were predated. So then when he, if, if he made an instrument like that in say, 1743, if somebody came along and said like, oh, you made a new instrument. Then you're, you're part of the Guild and Venice, you're part of the Union of Makers, like you owe us tax on your new work. He would say, well, no, I already made this one. Look, it's labeled 1730. It's labeled 1732. Linda Lespets Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's, it's this financial, it's before this financial year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's labeled 1732, so I, you can't tax me on it. I've already, it's not a new violin Joe Bein Yes. I mean, a tax avoidance and, and, and especially to your point, because Guarneri was so financially destitute, and then meanwhile, I mean, could you imagine trying to build violins in the immense shadow that must have, yeah that Stradivari undoubtedly cast bit of an inferiority complex. I mean, you have no money. You have these, you have this huge debt. You have this super talented brother who left to Mantua. I think he was bad with his, he was, he wasn't good with his money. Yeah. You have this other super talented son who gets, you know, drawn to Venice and like, you know, you're supposed to be this like, you know, century, you know, dynasty of makers. Linda Lespets With the Guarneri family and they, you know, that that's, they were supposed to rival, you know, the other families in Cremona and I think he was probably like a bit of a whinger. I don't think he was particularly nice to be around. I think that's why they left, like, 'cause he could have stayed like, you know, his kids could have stayed, but they didn't. He was probably, he was a grumpy old man. Joe Bein  Yeah, I mean, something, something's there for sure, but it's, he had the, he had the very unenviable task. Yeah. I mean he had the very unenviable task of, again, trying to, trying to build instruments in this immense shadow and, you know, he's one of the greatest makers of all time, but context is everything. But yeah, and, and then you see these beautiful Guarneri Filius Andrea instruments with this like, you know, stunning orange red varnish. There's some pictured in the Hill book where they have this sort of like two piece back with this irregular curl. Like you, you, you, there's one famously called the Rierson that's I think pictured in the Hill book. And, but you, if you look at it, there's an arching to it. Like if you took a photo of it, you get this, like there's a pinch to the arching that's like between the F hole and the center seam. Mm. And that's like, that's the Filius Andrea thing to me. And so here is this crossover period when the father, Filius Andrea was working with his two boys, and we can see whispers of the two young sons work in his instruments until, of course, Pietro leaves for Venice in 1717. Linda Lespets Giuseppe moves out of home in their early 1720s, and so these works can sometimes go either way. Are they a Del gesu’s or a Filius Andrea, or a bit of both. And just quickly coming back to the missing labels in instruments. In fact, count Cosio collector and meticulous note maker of the 18th century would take out labels of violins for his own records and collections to catalogue them, I know it's painful. He was in the shop, he's working there. You see his work and the, you know, some of these scrolls match later fiddles, you know, and then just like you see some of these Peter of Venice Fs where like the f holes, like the upper wings just sort of terminate and they don't have any like little gothic spurs to them. They don't have a little like, point to the, to the edges of the wings. Like they just, they're just more uniform. And there's just this like really nice circle at the top of the wing. And then you can see in some of these scrolls, like they have the gouge marks going around, which is a very Peter Guarneri of Venice trait or Peter Venice. Like around the, the ball. Oh yeah, yeah. Like you see all the gouge marks, like Yeah. And that's a very Peter Guarneri of Venice thing traditionally. And so you can see that in some of the, you know, like violins from 17, 14 or 15, for example. Linda Lespets But I feel like even the del Gesu, as you always see the little facets on the scrolls, do you know what I'm talking about? Joe Bein On the Violin, you see the little, the gouge marks. Well if, if there is a second fall loop, like, you know, 'cause obviously like at the end that second turn almost like completely disappears. I mean, on the flat bit, you know, the flat, the flat of the turn not the curve. You always see those. And then they're, and they're like this, you know, they're like, and, and the ears almost like point up, like if you were looking at a clock, they point at 10 and two. Instead of the Carlo Bergonzi which is just like as straight as the, you know, as a, as a dowel, going right through the middle of a scroll. And now we are going to start to look into the construction choices and techniques of Guarneri Del Gesu, and I will be doing this at the end of each episode for our Patreon listeners. If you're not a Patreon yet, then come on over and sign up and get access to extra episodes on patreon.com/theviolinchronicles. If you've enjoyed this journey through the world of the Guarneris, remember you can dive deeper and access extra episodes such as the one I did recently on Fritz Kreisler with Eric Wen and Biddulph Recordings where we look at Kreisler's life and playing whilst listening to music from the remastered albums of the Biddulph recordings. And he actually, you know, he actually had a very interesting life and career. So go check it out. It's the only place you can, and that brings us to the end of today's episode on the tumultuous life of Giuseppe Guarneri, the man who would become known as del gesu. What a chapter In October 17, 22, Giuseppe probably went against the grain of his family's wishes, excuse the pun, and customs by marrying Katarina Rotta, a German woman from Vienna, and the daughter of an Austrian occupying soldier.   The marriage itself was rushed, skipping the usual public announcements, but facing, crushing family debt and the father's failing reputation. Giuseppe Guarneri made a crucial decision that he and Katarina would not live in the family home. He abandoned the family workshop and for the next six years our protagonist essentially drops off the map. What did he do? Well, we know he didn't stop working completely, but he did stop working with his father. Determined to set out on his own. He began putting a new label in his instruments. Giuseppe Guarneri, Andrea Nepos proudly proclaiming himself the grandson of Andrea Guarneri and sidestepping his rather unreliable father entirely. It was a bold move, leaving home, marrying a foreigner, breaking from tradition and all that jazz. It kind of gives us a window into the life and character of Giuseppe. But join us next time as we track down what happens to Giuseppe and Katarina during those mysterious six years and see how this period of radical independence shaped the sound of one of history's great violin makers.   In the first part of this bonus Patreon episode, we'll hear from Jonathan Marolle from the maison Vatelot-Rampal in Paris, and we get a bit deep and personal about how he feels about how Del Gesu instruments are bought and sold today. And I learn a fun fact that connects him. Jonathan to our wonderful del gesu. After that, I'll be discussing the wood del gesu used for his instruments with Antoine my husband also a violin maker, and we'll be going over the characteristics of his wood choices, how he used it and where it came from. A very big thank you to my lovely guests, Christopher Reuning, Jonathan Marolle, and Joe Bein. And of course our sponsor, the lovely Libby Summers and her Brazenose range of instruments. And to finish up, here's Richard Tognetti from the Australian Chamber Orchestra playing a bit of Bach on the Carrodus del gesu of 1743.      

In this episode, we dive into the mysterious and brilliant world of Giuseppe Guarneri “del Gesù”, one of history’s most revered violin makers. Often overshadowed by Stradivari, del Gesù was doing his own thing  creating violins that have raw power, and emotional depth—qualities that still captivate players and collectors nearly three centuries later. We’ll explore his fascinating life in 18th-century Cremona, the distinctive features that set his instruments apart, and the myths that surround his work. Then, I sit down with Joe Bein of Bein and Company rare violins, one of the world’s leading experts and dealers in fine string instruments, to unpack what makes a Guarneri violin so extraordinary—and why musicians from Paganini to today’s great soloists remain spellbound by them. Whether you’re a violinist, a luthier, or simply a lover of classical music’s deep craftsmanship, this episode offers a rare look into the genius and mystery of Guarneri del Gesù. And for my amazing Patreon listeners Peter Biddulph tells his intriguing story of a very important archival discovery that rocked the violin making world and we discuss a Stradivari that perhaps you never knew existed! Listen now to discover the passion, artistry, and intrigue behind some of the most powerful violins ever made.     Transcript Joe Bein  You know, there is something, in my experience, I think there is something primal about players when they get around. Del Gesus. And of course, we're basically just talking about violinists, but there's an excitement and there's a, I don't know, it just feels like there's a, there's something, like Stradivari of course has this regal element to it, and it's like, it's so perfect and beautiful and usually more symmetrical. And then you get to a Del Gesu and it's just this like, I don't know, it's like, it's like the wild child or it's like the, the one you're, I don't know. You're not supposed to like, but you really do. And obviously like there's this dark. Powerful sound that I think is associated with his best instruments that is just like intoxicating. And that was the delight for Joe Bein of Bein and company rare violins in Chicago. We'll be having the pleasure of hearing more from this superbly loquacious individual later on. So don't fall off the edge of your seats just yet. He'll be back. Welcome to the Violin Chronicles, a show dedicated to the story of history's greatest violin makers. Now, this season, we are diving into the life of one of the most mysterious and fascinating figures in violin making history, really. And his name is Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu. Hello, I'm Linda Lespets, a violin maker based in Sydney, Australia. And together with my husband Antoine, we run a workshop where many remarkable instruments pass through our hands. And here I'll be sharing the stories behind the people who created these beautiful works of craftsmanship. It really is exciting to finally be talking about Bartoloemo Giuseppe Guarneri. Now, by this time, we've already looked at 200 years of violin making, starting with Andrea Amati. Now, Andrea Amati laid down the foundations of modern violin making, and yet just two doors down from the Amati home in which Gerolamo Amati the second was living. The Guarneri family continued to follow many of the same methods Andrea Amati had pioneered keeping the cremonese tradition alive with other violin makers around town of course. So in this series, I'll be joined by some incredible guests, the renowned expert, Peter Biddulph who will share a story of a landmark discovery connected to the Guarneris, or sort of thanks to the Guarneris. You'll hear it's a very cool story. And I also speak to the expert, Joe Bein, whose deep knowledge of Del Gesu's instruments offer rare insight into the maker's genius, if you will. This European summer, I happen to be in France and I spoke to Jonathan Marolle from the French maison Vatelot Rampal who will help us explore just how the French played an unexpected role in the cementing of Del Gesu’s fame. And it gets pretty philosophical if I do say so myself. But come with me. And together we will unravel the enigma of Giuseppe Guarneri  Del Gesu. Can we separate the man from the myth? You know, in rumours sometimes there is a grain of truth. What are the truths that we can find in these rumours of Guarneri Del Gesu and what lies behind the legend? So stay tuned, and by the end it will all start making a little bit more sense. Trust me. And just quickly before we start, I would like to thank this episodes sponsor Florian Leonhard, fine Violins and in particular his new book coming out on Guarneri Del Gesu called The Archetypal Violins of Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu. In the year 1698, Andrea Guarneri is 75 years old and no longer a young man. His son, Giuseppe, is making most of the instruments in the workshop these days. And quite frankly, Andrea is tired. His wife died three years ago and things had never really been the same since her passing.   But today the family is celebrating. It's the christening of his youngest grandchild, Bartolemo, Giuseppe Guarneri. Who we know today as Guarneri Del Gesu. He already has two older brothers, the 7-year-old Andrea and Pietro, who is three. The three girls, Giuseppe and Barbara had would pass away in infancy, but with three healthy boys. Surely one of these would inherit the workshop one day, and for the moment it looked like it would be the little Andrea named after his grandfather. Of course. Now, although Andrea was still holding a grudge against his eldest son Pietro, for going off and living in Mantua when there was work to do here in Cremona, he was happy to have his sons with him. Pietro had made the trip from Mantua a few days ago and the boys had sorted out, the last of the paperwork for his will. And now they could sit back and listen to Pietro’s stories of life in the Manin Court with its extravagant goings on the banquets, the theatre, the performances. And if the young 3-year-old Pietro could have only remembered listening to his uncle describing his life in this foreign city, he could only dream of what life could be like in say, Venice, the heart of all drama. Well, maybe the little 7-year-old Andrea did, but the 3-year-old Pietro was probably running around doing more interesting things. Right now, no one realized it quite yet, but later in the year, the grandfather, Andrea would die. And so this would be the last time. The five Guarneri names we know so well, were gathered together. Andrea Guarneri, Pietro of Mantra, Giuseppe filius Andrea, Pietro Guarneri of Venice, and Giuseppe known as Del Gesu. Now Pietro of Mantua, was named godfather of this little nephew, Bartolemo, and prayed that he would survive infancy. And eventually left for his home and family who awaited him in Mantua. He would not be able to return to his hometown of Cremona for quite some years. As it turned out that the whole area was a geopolitical ticking time bomb. Let me explain. At the time of Del Gesu's birth, the region of Lombardi was in decline, not only for violin makers, but for the whole economy. Times were hard for everyone. And if you will remember, the city was still ruled by the Spanish, but things were heating up and the Beretta firm over in Brescia were working overtime, making Flintlocks arquebus and muskets because Europe was about to play musical chairs with its powers, and Cremona was in the middle of the action. Mantua would get a bit too. Don't worry. We have already spoken of the dramas that unfolded in Cremona over these next few years during the childhood of the little Del Gesu in the previous episodes on Filius Andrea, so I won't go into them too much again, but by understanding what went on in his childhood, this can help us form a picture of the man he will become. That same year that Giuseppe Del Gesu was born and Andrea Guarneri died, the Stradivari also encountered a personal tragedy when Antonio's wife, Francesca passed away. He remarried the next year, and it was the children of this second marriage that Del Gesu would have grown up with and gone to school with, Francesca, Giovanni, Giuseppe and Paolo literally lived just a few houses down from the Guarneris and we're very close in age to the boys. Francesco and Omobono that you may have heard of were somewhat older than the young Del Gesu at this time and we're already working with their father. In his workshop, these two boys were the children of Stradivari's first wife. Now in 1702, we have something called the Battle of Cremona, the little Del Gesu, look, I'm just gonna call him Jisu because even though he was never called that in his lifetime, there are just too many Giuseppes in this story. So the little Del Gesu may not have had a very steady education in those primary school age years because his town was constantly in the middle of skirmishes and even battles in his younger years Between the French and Spanish and the Austrians, this little guy got the trifecta war disease and famine armies passing through and different powers taking control of the city.   Interestingly, on the instrument front, things were not all that bad. As it turns out, soldiers needed constant entertaining to keep them out of mischief. Stradivari's workshop a few doors down was doing quite well, and although the Guarneri were drowning in debt at this point, this was probably due to some bad luck and terrible financial planning on his parents' side. Now in these years when Del Gesu was about five to seven years old, the city was losing its power. In these wars that were going on the Spanish, were slowly losing control of the city and the whole area. As the Austrian start to move in. Cremona has adjusted to its new circumstances. Austrian soldiers are everywhere, and the workshop of Antonio Stradivari is entering its golden period with his older boys working for or with him on the Piazza San Marco. The Guarneri family lived in what was essentially two houses Del Gesu’s Grandfather had always rented out the second house, but since his death Giuseppe Filius Andrea Guarneri, his father, had moved the family into the larger space using both houses, but don't let that fool you. Giuseppe was struggling to keep his head above water and hoping for better times to come so that he could pay off money owed to his brother. Pietro in Mantra amongst others. Enter the Guarneri home and you would find Giuseppe and Barbara the parents, Giuseppe, AKA Filius Andrea. He would spend all his days in the workshop with his eldest son, Andrea, who is 14. There was Pietro who is 10 years old and now starting to help out his father and brother. And then the youngest 7-year-old Giuseppe, AKA Del Gesu who would've still been of an age to attend school The Guarneris had also had three daughters who all died in infancy before the youngest son Giuseppe was even born. But in the home there were also their older cousins living with them after their father had died. But soon, Giuseppe. The cousin, I mean, this is why it's so confusing. There are three Giuseppe Guarneris living in the house at the same time. It's making this narration really hard. Well, the cousin Giuseppe would leave to fight in the Austrian army like so many other soldiers in Cremona who failed to have any fixed employment and high hopes of making a fortune and seeing the world, and his sister would eventually leave the home as well, heading for a convent. Now it was this, it was this Giuseppe, the cousin that would sometimes in archives lead to confusion and the, and historians historically thinking that there were two Giuseppe Guarneris but they would mix up this Giuseppe Guarneri with Giuseppe Del Gesu. And so coming back to 1705 Del Gesu’s father starts experimenting with different violin models. It was his target market soldiers that were so often in town and perhaps looking for an affordable instrument if their wages would not permit them to buy from the esteemed Stradiveri workshop. Giuseppe filius Andrea was literally a few doors down from Antonio and his instruments were going for a lot cheaper. We're gonna have a quick break now to talk to Florian Leonhard about his exciting new book on Del Gesu Violins coming out. And here is the man himself talking to me about his latest project, a wonderful book called The Archetypal Violins of Guarneri Del Gesu.  So I'm Florian Leonard, director of Florian Leonhard Fine Violins. I'm an expert in authentication of in particular old Italian instruments, a violin maker, a restorer. The dealer about 15 years ago, I, I decided to start the project. I collated by now more than a hundred instruments, 100 full size, high quality photographed instruments in the book from the earliest part to his last year of life. I wanted to highlight very much the, the early part of his production. So we don't have any publication. Yet that highlights also the early works of Del Gesus. Okay. So in your book, you're, you're documenting his life through instruments from every period of his life. Yeah. But what is interesting is that you are also looking at his earlier period, which is left documented.   That's right. In my past 40 years of work, I've come across. So many go del Gesu’s  that I thought it would be nice to study them and put this knowledge together into one big book. And so I wanted to create a volume where all the works that we can today find are, are shown to any violin maker. The violin makers know Stradivari quite well. We have lots of publications on Antonio Stradivari we lack a little bit publication that shows the whole life and the whole spectrum of Guarneri Del Gesu’s work. And so it is very interesting. Del Gesu was not an as prolific maker as Antonio Stradivari, and also he did not live as long in this publication, I will publish 100 and I have every single year since the early 1720s represented by at least one example. More likely like three to four. And that should help the community of people interested in the subject, but also the violin makers who want to understand the maker better or copy him or don't have access to the originals all the time to get the feeling of holding those pieces in their hand and also see the flow of development throughout the decades of his work. And we can clearly see it. You will realize. How he slowly developed, how the scrolls become his own hand, or when he carved his own scroll, and when the father created a batch of scrolls that he would make use, and how he in the 1740s creates his style. The pictures are high resolution, full size, so it's exact size of the instrument so people can use these as templates to draw their own models. It's a Maker's book, but it is also a book for people who like the history. So for makers, musicians, and enthusiasts, this book should enable them to analyse and understand and then fall in love with the work of this great master. What I add to this whole book is my descriptions of the instruments I want to share. That insight because if you also describe pictures, it brings the instrument even closer to the eye of the person. Yeah. And when you describe something, you're really drawing the eye towards it that you might not have noticed before. Correct. So this must have reference book. The Archetypal Violins of Guarneri Del Gesu is now even bigger. It was originally going to be only 100 instruments, but now it's 130 life-sized photos featured in the book. It's a whale. And if you are fast, the price is 495 pounds until the 1st of December. After that, the price is going to increase to 795 pounds because of the extra photos. So be sure to get a copy in your hot little hands by going to the webpage, Florian leonard.com. Go to the shop tab and there you can order your very own copy of this book and you too can have a Del Gesu library on your bookshelf. Now, as I said, the economy in Cremona was not flourishing since the birth of Del Gesu and with the wars and the flooding we looked at in the previous episodes on Filius Andrea, we can see a Cremona that this young violin maker grew up in well past its glory days. The days in which the Amati family ruled the market were long gone. The Guarneri parents were falling further and further into debt, and to make matters worse, the very next year tragedy struck the family. Del Gesu was eight years old when his eldest brother Andrea died Suddenly leaving a void, the Poe was flooding again. Diseases were on the rise as a result of all the displaced water. Could this have been what killed the young Andrea? He was supposed to be the son who would inherit the workshop and continue on in the family tradition, but now this baton would be passed on to the next eldest son, Pietro. But Pietro was only 11 years old and quite frankly, not that much help in the workshop compared to his older brother who was starting to really show promise. Time moves on and Giuseppe Filius Andrea, the father of the two boys, Pietro and Del Gesu, will mismanage the family finances spectacularly and the year after their eldest brother's death. The two boys were now 11 and nine years old and would not have missed the significance of the fact that the Austrians finally took control of the city officially of Cremona. These last few years, the French soldiers garrisoned in the area were draining the resources of the city. And the locals had been heavily taxed to support all these extra bodies, but soldiers also meant entertainment. And when they eventually all left in 1707. Only a year later, the local theatre closed down as well. This was a stressful time for the family and would have affected Giuseppe's income as well. He would've done a bit of freelance playing and what with all the upkeep of the instruments at the theatre there as well. He could kiss all those patrons goodbye now. Being ruled as part of the Austrian empire now meant that trade with the French and Spanish was not the easiest path to follow. But at the same time, this opened up new opportunities of commerce with the Austrian controlled areas of Europe. This was both good and bad news, as you will hear. So the bad news for the Luthiers in Cremona was that there was now many, many, many cheap instruments being made north of the Alps, flooding the market. Now for someone such as Antonio Stradivari, whose instruments were targeted at the luxury trade level, this was not so much a problem. But for the makers in the cheaper range, the competition was now fierce. And to the young Pietro Guarneri Del Gesu, his older brother, as he grew up, this became more and more evident. If he wanted to continue to be an instrument maker, the only thing he had been trained in, quite frankly, it was hard for him to see a future for himself in this town. I mean, just look at their Uncle Pietro in Mantua. He was making a great success of things compared to the Guarneris here in Cremona. He had a big house, lots of work, and a successful career as a musician. It was not beyond the realms of impossible to live elsewhere. He thought to himself. There is a change noted in the craftsmanship coming from their father's workshop in Filius Andrea's style around the years 1710, and this is probably because the two boys would've been working with their father. Pietro is 15 and Del Gesu is now 12. And although these instruments are Giuseppe filius Andrea’s, they would have been helped along by the two boys. In the previous series on Filius Andrea, Christopher Reuning talks about these distinct period of the father's work. But for now, life goes on and as time goes by, the boys will contribute more and more to the production coming from their father's workshop. And their contributions were not just in their handiwork, but in the life of their community, especially our young Del Gesu who appears to be quite the man about town. Despite his unreliable and often ill father who had a tendency to make bad financial decisions and was not to be relied upon to repay his debts. His youngest son, Bartolomeo Giuseppe Del Gesu as we are calling him, was a whole other kettle of fish. At the age of 19, he appears to be friends with every man and his dog in town, and when weddings are celebrated, he is not only invited, but asked to be a witness. When neighbours are on their deathbeds, he has called with other trusted friends to execute the dying man's testament and final wishes. Then when Del Gesu was just 20 years old in 1717, his brother Pietro announced that he was leaving the family and Cremona and moving to Venice. Perhaps he asked his little brother to go with him and seek his fortune in the Veneto. But dutiful son that he was, he stayed. He was the last of Barbara and Giuseppe's six children. Their father's health was not the best these days and it was probably not an easy decision staying with his parents who were only accumulating more debt that they could never realistically pay back, and the economy wasn't great. Business was slow, but he stayed on. So here in these years, we have our young Del Gesu alone working for his father for at least the next four years. And although he appears to have many friends and acquaintances in his local community, he's a bit of a standalone in his generation of violin makers. Antonio Stradivari is in his early seventies now, and his sons are almost 30 years older than him. Girolamo Amati is an old man. His brother Pietro has moved away and the maker, the closest to him in age would, would have to be Carlo Bergonzi.   And even then, he's 15 years older than him. All the work he was doing in his father's workshop would've gone to paying off his parents' debts. There was less and less demand for instruments in a city that still had a lot of makers to choose from. He would have to seriously think about his options for the future. Deep down, he knew that he was not going to inherit much from his father in regards to the workshop, apart from a crippling debt and creditors pounding at his door. As Christopher Reuning explained in the previous episodes, here we can see the very first period of del Gesu’s work in a series of instruments coming from his father's workshop. And if we were to divide his life up into segments, these would be the early years up to 1722. Joe Bein My name is Joe Bein and I have been in the, you know, my family's been in the violin business for about half a century now. My father started in the violin business. My father was Robert Bein of course, and he started in the violin business in Cincinnati in the early seventies. So I've, I've been working in the violin business now for about 25 years. Certainly grew up around it. And then I launched. My business is called Bein and Company five years ago, obviously after being at the old firm Bein and Fushi for a couple decades. And then, yeah, and so now we're coming up on five years. And so I have a shop in Chicago that I'm on Michigan Avenue a couple blocks away from the orchestra hall. And it's great. I mean, I have a lot of fun actually, and I feel very grateful to be in this business because it's, it's one of those that. It's filled with these like multi-generational relationships. It's filled with like long-term connections with people. I think it's associated with something generally very positive. Like when you're helping somebody find something, you know, that's usually a very positive thing. You know, there's people that, for a living, obviously they write parking tickets and make people miserable. Or you know, go, go to work for companies where they, you know, have a hundred thousand employees and nothing they do makes a difference. And so I'm very happy and grateful to be part of a business that actually, you know, is a personal relationship. Now, if you didn't know, the maker we refer to as Del Gesu, whose real name is in fact Giuseppe Guaneri. He's a big deal. Such a big deal, in fact, that many articles and books have been written about his work. Not that much about his life, but we'll come to that. And so I asked Joe how he would break up the working life of this maker into significant segments to understand his methods and what he was doing. Joe Bein There's that first period, of course, when he is in the 1720s and he's there with his father and they have seemingly no money. There are details that have been dug up by, you know, colleagues of mine, you know, like Carlo Chiesa and Duane Rosenguard and Peter Biddulph and Philip Kass, who, you know, do this, the Lord's work and go diving into this archival research. We know things like he, you know, in 1715 that Filius borrowed this huge sum of money from this I think it was like a steelmaker or like a named Rolla who lived nearby. And, and we know that, you know, there was debt involved basically for the rest of his life. He never paid back that loan. I think like you see these, these instruments that, especially from the late teens that are rustic looking. There are some s instruments I've been around that are basically have cello wood on the top, you know, that are, that are after 1717.   So, you know, we're we, it's not a Peter Venice. It is a, it's a Del Gesu and a, and a Filius I've seen like four or five of those where he's not buying any more wood. He's just using up this stock that he has. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and clearly, you know, he, he was still receiving orders for instruments. And so, yeah, he's not, he's not able to buy this beautiful spruce, you know, with this really tight grain and the things that he made in the decade before. And he's looking around and he's like, okay, well here's yeah, let me just grab this piece of cello wood here and I'm gonna grab some beach and, you know, cobble a scroll together and I'm gonna use this maple and the mismatched, the mismatched ribs. And yeah, a hundred percent. To me there's like a very defined period that is like this narrow wasted model. That he uses, which is more the, you know, it's kind of the s outline. You know, the violins that come to mind for me are the al for example, that was the belonged to Shmuel Ashkenazi of the Vermeer Quartet for years. We had one here in Chicago called the Kovich. I think of the Krasner. And these are, these like, you know, they're concert instruments and soloist instruments. Like there's not, they're not. Bad by any means. I think of those instruments as sort of like these narrow wasted, kind of like this, that type of model. Is where he, where he begins. Mm-hmm. There is another one called like the Zimmerman that has like these, like itty bitty eyelets. Mm-hmm. Like upper eyes. And I think that's something that, you know, that's kind of where he's, in my mind, I think of a lot of those violins, like where he starts with these little itty bitty eyes upper eyes anyway, you know, and again, like not the most beautiful materials like the Krasner is, has, you know, is a beautiful blondish fiddle, like sort of sandy, amber coloured fiddle. And that's where we'll leave our story for now. In the early years of Giuseppe Guarneri, the boy who would one day become Del Gesu. Born into a family of remarkable makers, but burdened by loss, war and financial struggle. His world was anything but easy from a childhood marked by the chaos of Cremona’s battles to the weight of his family's debts and expectations. Always looking up to his older brother, Pietro of Venice young Giuseppe grew up in the long shadow of his father's failures and the brilliance of the Stradivari’s next door yet even in these turbulent beginnings, we can already see the spark of individuality a craftsman forming his own path amid tradition, hardship, and change. These were the years that shaped his character and his hand and has set the stage for the Del Gesu to come. Coming up next, I've got a special treat for my Patreon listeners, and if you're not yet a member, now it's the perfect time to join. If you've learned something from these podcasts and want to support the show while getting access to loads of extra content and bonus episodes, head over to patreon.com/the Violin chronicles. You can sign up for the price of a coffee each month and it's completely ad free. Now this next fascinating interview with Peter Biddulph is exclusively for my lovely Patreon supporters, but to all my other wonderful listeners. Don't worry. You are wonderful as well. I'll catch you next time in the next instalment of Del Gesu, where we will be diving into what's happening in Cremona see Giuseppe fall in love and chat with a French expert in the city of love about Del Gesu and his French connection. So stay tuned and goodbye for now, but for my Patreons, let's find out what Mr. Biddulph has installed for you. And now I will leave you with this beautiful piece of music played by Julian Thompson of the Australian Chamber Orchestra on a cello made by both Fiilas, Andrea and Del Gesu, the father and son.   And finally, I'd like to thank my guest, Joe Bein, and our sponsor for this episode, Florian Leonhard Fine violins.

Charles Reade the dramatist and violin dealer wrote 4 letters to the Pall Mall Gazette in 1872 about Cremona violins, google says "This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it!" So listen on! I say. To understand what these letters are about here is an intro with Benjamin Hebbert.