Unstoppable Mindset

• Episode 334 – Unstoppable Leadership Consultant and Executive Coach with Rachelle Stone

  Have you or do you feel stress? What is stress and how can we deal with it? Our guest this time is Rachelle Stone who discusses those very questions with us. Rachelle grew up in a very small town in Massachusetts. After attending community college, she had an opportunity to study and work at Disney World in Florida and has never looked back.   Rachelle loved her Disney work and entered the hospitality industry spending much of 27 years working for or running her own destination management company. She will describe how one day after a successful career, at the age of 48, she suffered what today we know as burnout. She didn’t know how to describe her feelings at the time, but she will tell us how she eventually discovered what was going on with her.   She began to explore and then study the profession of coaching. Rachelle will tell us about coaches and clients and how what coaches do can help change lives in so many ways.   This episode is full of the kind of thoughts and ideas we all experience as well as insights on how we can move forward when our mindsets are keeping us from moving forward. Rachelle has a down-to-Earth way of explaining what she wants to say that we all can appreciate.       About the Guest:   “As your leadership consultant, I will help you hone your leadership, so you are ready for your next career move. As your executive coach, I will partner with you to overcome challenges and obstacles so you can execute your goals.”     Hi, I’m Rachelle. I spent over 25 years as an entrepreneur and leader in the Special Event industry in Miami, building, flipping, and selling Destination Management Companies (DMCs).  While I loved and thrived in the excitement and chaos of the industry, I still managed to hit a level of burnout that was wholly unexpected and unacceptable to me, resulting in early retirement at 48.   Now, as a trained Leadership Consultant and Executive Coach, I’ve made it my mission to combine this hard-won wisdom and experience to crack the code on burnout and balance for others so they can continue to thrive in careers they love. I am Brené Brown Dare to Lead ™ trained, a Certified Positive Intelligence ® Mental Fitness coach, and an accredited Professional Certified Coach by the ICF (International Coaching Federation, the most recognized global accreditation body in the coaching industry).   I continue to grow my expertise and show my commitment to the next generation of coaches by serving on the ICF-Central Florida chapter board of directors. I am serving as President-Elect and Chapter Liaison to the global organization. I also support those new to the coaching industry by mentoring other coaches to obtain advanced coaching credentials.   I maintain my well-being by practicing Pilates & Pvolve ® a few days a week, taking daily walks, loving on my Pug, Max, and making time for beach walks when possible.   Ways to connect Rachel:   www.rstoneconsulting.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/rstoneconsulting/ Instagram: @even_wonderwoman_gets_tired   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi and welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet. But you know, the more fun thing about it is the unexpected. Unexpected is always a good thing, and unexpected is really anything that doesn't have anything directly to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most of what we get to deal with in the course of the podcast, including with our guest today, Rachelle Stone, who worked in the hospitality industry in a variety of ways during a lot of her life, and then switched to being a coach and a leadership expert. And I am fascinated to learn about that and what what brought her to that? And we'll get to that at some point in the course of the day. But Rachelle, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank   Rachelle Stone ** 02:08 you, Michael. I'm honored to be here. Excited to be talking to you today.   Michael Hingson ** 02:12 Well, it's a lot of fun now. You're in Florida. I am. I'm in the Clearwater   Rachelle Stone ** 02:16 Dunedin area. I like to say I live in Dunedin, Florida without the zip code.   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 Yeah. Well, I hear you, you know, then makes it harder to find you that way, right?   Rachelle Stone ** 02:28 Physically. Yeah, right, exactly. Danita, without the zip code, we'll stick with that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 yeah, that works. Well, I'm really glad you're here. Why don't we start by maybe you talking to us a little bit about the early Rachelle growing up and some of that stuff.   Rachelle Stone ** 02:43 Yeah, I was lucky. I grew up in rural Western Massachusetts, little po doc town called Greenfield, Massachusetts. We were 18 miles from the Vermont border, which was literally a mile and a half from the New Hampshire border. So I grew up in this very interesting area where it was like a tri state area, and our idea of fun growing up, well, it was, we were always outdoors, playing very much outdoors. I had three siblings, and I was the youngest, and it was one of those childhoods where you came home from school, and mom would say, go outside, don't come back in the house until you hear the whistle. And every house on the street, every mother had a whistle. There were only seven houses because there was a Boy Scout camp at the end of the road. So as the sun was setting and the street lights would come on, you would hear different whistles, and different family kids would be going home the stone kids up, that's your mom. Go home, see you next time that was it was great. And you know, as I got older and more adventurous, it was cow tipping and keg parties and behind and all sorts of things that we probably shouldn't have been doing in our later teen years, but it was fun. Behind   Michael Hingson ** 04:04 is it's four wheeling,   Rachelle Stone ** 04:08 going up rough terrain. We had these. It was very, very hilly, where I was lot of lot of small mountains that you could conquer.   Michael Hingson ** 04:17 So in the winter, does that mean you got to do some fun things, like sledding in the snow. Yeah, yeah.   Rachelle Stone ** 04:24 We had a great hill in the back of our yard, so I learned to ski in my own backyard, and we had three acres of woods, so we would go snowshoeing. We were also close to a private school called Northfield Mount Hermon, which had beautiful, beautiful grounds, and in the winter, we would go cross country skiing there. So again, year round, we were, we were outdoors a lot.   Michael Hingson ** 04:52 Well, my time in Massachusetts was three years living in Winthrop so I was basically East Boston. Yeah. Yes and and very much enjoyed it. Loved the environment. I've been all over Massachusetts in one way or another, so I'm familiar with where you were. I am, and I will admit, although the winters were were cold, that wasn't as much a bother as it was when the snow turned to ice or started to melt, and then that night it froze. That got to be pretty slippery,   05:25 very dangerous, very dangerous.   Michael Hingson ** 05:29 I then experienced it again later, when we lived in New Jersey and and I actually our house to take the dogs out. We had no fenced yards, so I had to take them out on leash, and I would go down to our basement and go out and walk out basement onto a small deck or patio, actually, and then I had to go down a hill to take the dogs where they could go do their business. And I remember the last year we were in New Jersey, it snowed in May, and the snow started to melt the next day, and then that night, it froze, and it and it stayed that way for like about a day and a half. And so it was as slick as glass is. Glass could be. So eventually I couldn't I could go down a hill, it was very dangerous, but going back up a hill to come back in the house was not safe. So eventually, I just used a very long flex leash that was like 20 feet long, and I sent the dogs down the hill. I stayed at the top.   Rachelle Stone ** 06:33 Was smart, wow. And they didn't mind. They just wanted to go do their business, and they wanted to get back in the house too. It's cold, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 They didn't seem to be always in an incredible hurry to come back into the house. But they had no problem coming up the hill. That's the the advantage of having claws,   Rachelle Stone ** 06:51 yes. Pause, yeah, four of them to boot, right? Yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 06:54 really helped a great deal. But, you know, I remember it. I love it. I loved it. Then now I live in in a place in California where we're on what's called the high desert, so it doesn't get as cold, and we get hardly any of the precipitation that even some of the surrounding areas do, from Los Angeles and Long Beach and so on to on the one side, up in the mountains where the Snow is for the ski resorts on the other so Los Angeles can have, or parts of La can have three or four inches of rain, and we might get a half inch.   Rachelle Stone ** 07:28 Wow. So it stays relatively dry. Do you? Do you ever have to deal like down here, we have something called black ice, which we get on the road when it rains after it hasn't rained in a long time? Do you get that there in California,   Michael Hingson ** 07:41 there are places, yeah, not here where I live, because it generally doesn't get cold enough. It can. It's already this well, in 2023 late 2023 we got down to 24 degrees one night, and it can get a little bit colder, but generally we're above freezing. So, no, we don't get the black ice here that other places around us can and do. Got it. Got it. So you had I obviously a fun, what you regard as a fun childhood.   Rachelle Stone ** 08:14 Yeah, I remember the first day I walked into I went to a community college, and I it was a very last minute, impulsive, spontaneous decision. Wow, that kind of plays into the rest of my life too. I make very quick decisions, and I decided I wanted to go to college, and it was open enrollment. I went down to the school, and they asked me, What do you want to study? I'm like, I don't know. I just know I want to have fun. So they said, you might want to explore Recreation and Leisure Services. So that's what I wound up going to school for. And I like to say I have a degree in fun and games.   Michael Hingson ** 08:47 There you go. Yeah. Did you go beyond community college or community college enough?   Rachelle Stone ** 08:53 Yeah, that was so I transferred. It took me four years to get a two year degree. And the reason was, I was working full time, I moved out. I just at 17, I wanted to be on my own, and just moved into an apartment with three other people and went to college and worked. It was a fabulous way to live. It was wonderful. But then when I transferred to the University, I felt like I was a bit bored, because I think the other students were, I was dealing with a lot of students coming in for the first time, where I had already been in school for four years, in college for four years, so the experience wasn't what I was looking for. I wanted the education. And I saw a poster, and it was Mickey Mouse on the poster, and it was Walt Disney World College program now accepting applications. So I wrote down the phone number, email, whatever it was, and and I applied. I got an interview again. Remember Michael? I was really bored. I was going to school. It was my first semester in my four year program, and I just anyway. I got a call back and. And I was accepted into the Disney College Program. So, um, they at that time, they only took about 800 students a year. So it was back in 1989 long time ago. And I was thrilled. I left Massachusetts on january 31 1989 in the blizzard of 89 Yeah, and I drove down to Orlando, Florida, and I never left. I'm still here in Florida. That was the beginning of my entire career. Was applying for the Disney College Program.   Michael Hingson ** 10:36 So what was that like, being there at the Disney College, pro nominal, phenomenal. I have to ask one thing, did you have to go through some sort of operation to get rid of your Massachusetts accent? Does   Rachelle Stone ** 10:50 it sound like it worked? No, I didn't have well, it was funny, because I was hoping I would be cast as Minnie Mouse. I'm four foot 10. I have learned that to be Mini or Mickey Mouse, you have to be four, eight or shorter. So I missed many by two inches. My second choice was being a lifeguard, and I wound up what I they offered me was Epcot parking lot, and I loved it, believe it or not, helping to park cars at Epcot Center. I still remember my spiel to the letter that I used to give because there was a live person on the back of the tram speaking and then another one at the front of the tram driving it to get you from the parking lot to the front entrance of the gate. But the whole experience was amazing. It was I attended classes, I earned my Master's degree. I picked up a second and third job because I wanted to get into hotels, and so I worked one day a week at the Disney Inn, which is now their military resorts. And then I took that third job, was as a contractor for a recreation management company. So I was working in the field that I had my associates in. I was working at a hotel one day a week, just because I wanted to learn about hotels. I thought that was the industry I wanted to go into. And I was I was driving the tram and spieling on the back of the tram five days a week. I loved it was phenomenal.   Michael Hingson ** 12:20 I have a friend who is blind who just retired from, I don't know, 20 or 25 years at Disneyland, working a lot in the reservation centers and and so on. And speaks very highly of, of course, all the experiences of being involved with Disney.   Rachelle Stone ** 12:38 Yeah, it's really, I'm It was a wonderful experience. I think it gave me a great foundation for the work in hospitality that I did following. It was a great i i think it made me a better leader, better hospitality person for it well,   Michael Hingson ** 12:57 and there is an art to doing it. It isn't just something where you can arbitrarily decide, I'm going to be a successful and great hospitality person, and then do it if you don't learn how to relate to people, if you don't learn how to talk to people, and if you're not having fun doing it   Rachelle Stone ** 13:14 exactly. Yes, Fun. Fun is everything. It's   Michael Hingson ** 13:18 sort of like this podcast I love to tell people now that the only hard and fast rule about the podcast is we both have to have fun, or it's not worth doing.   Rachelle Stone ** 13:25 That's right. I'm right there with you. Gotta Have fun,   Michael Hingson ** 13:30 yeah? Well, so you So, how long were you with Disney? What made you switched? Oh, so   Rachelle Stone ** 13:36 Disney College Program. It was, at that time, it was called the Magic Kingdom college program, MK, CP, and it's grown quite significantly. I think they have five or 7000 students from around the world now, but at that time it was just a one semester program. I think for international students, it's a one year program. So when my three and a half months were up. My semester, I could either go back. I was supposed to go back to school back in Massachusetts, but the recreation management company I was working for offered me a full time position, so I wound up staying. I stayed in Orlando for almost three and a half years, and ultimately I wound up moving to South Florida and getting a role, a new role, with a different sort of company called a destination management company. And that was that was really the onset destination management was my career for 27 years. 26   Michael Hingson ** 14:38 years. So what is a destination management company. So   Rachelle Stone ** 14:41 a destination management company is, they are the company that receives a group into a destination, meetings, conventions, events. So for instance, let's say, let's say Fathom note taker. Wants to have an in person meeting, and they're going to hold it at the Lowe's Miami Beach, and they're bringing in 400 of their top clients, and and and sales people and operations people. They need someone on the receiving end to pick everybody up at the airport, to put together the theme parties, provide the private tours and excursions. Do the exciting restaurant, Dine Around the entertainment, the amenities. So I did all the fun. And again, sticking with the fun theme here, yeah, I did all of the auxiliary meeting fun add ons in the destination that what you would do. And I would say I did about 175 to 225, meetings a year.   Michael Hingson ** 15:44 So you didn't actually book the meetings, or go out and solicit to book the meetings. You were the person who took over. Once a meeting was arranged,   Rachelle Stone ** 15:53 once a meeting was booked in the destination, right? If they needed a company like mine, then it would be then I would work with them. If I would be the company. There were several companies I did what I do, especially in Miami, because Miami was a top tier destination, so a client may book the lows Miami Beach and then reach out to two to three different DMCs to learn how can they partner with them to make the meeting the most successful. So it was always a competitive situation. And it was always, you know, needing to do our best and give our best and be creative and out of the box. And, yeah, it was, it was an exciting industry. So what makes   Michael Hingson ** 16:41 the best destination management company, or what makes you very successful? Why would people view you as successful at at what you do, and why they would want to choose you to be the company to work with? Because obviously, as you said, it's competitive.   Rachelle Stone ** 16:59 Everybody well, and there's choice. Everybody has choice. I always believed there was enough business to go around for everybody. Very good friends with some of my my hardiest competitors. Interestingly, you know, although we're competing, it's a very friendly industry. We all network together. We all dance in the same network. You know, if we're going to an industry network, we're all together. What? Why would somebody choose me over somebody else? Was really always a decision. It was sometimes it was creativity. Sometimes it was just a feeling for them. They felt the relationship just felt more authentic. Other times it was they they just really needed a cut and dry service. It just every client was always different. There were never two programs the same. I might have somebody just wanting to book a flamenco guitarist for three hours, and that's all they need. And another group may need. The transportation, the tours, the entertainment, the theme parties, the amenities, the whole ball of Fox, every group was different, which is, I think, what made it so exciting, it's that relationship building, I think, more than anything. Because these companies are doing meetings all over the country, sometimes some of them all over the world. So relationships were really, really important to them to be able to go into a destination and say to their partner in that destination, hey, I'm going to be there next May. This is what I need. Are you available? Can you help? So I think on the initial front end, it is, when it's a competitive bid, you're starting from scratch to build a relationship. Once that's relationship is established, it is easier to build on that relationship when things go wrong. Let's talk about what worked, what didn't, and how we can do better next time, instead of throwing the entire relationship out with the bathwater and starting from scratch again. So it was a great industry. I loved it, and   Michael Hingson ** 19:00 obviously you must have been pretty successful at it.   Rachelle Stone ** 19:04 I was, I was lucky. Well, luck and skill, I have to give myself credit there too. I worked for other DMCs. I worked for event companies that wanted to expand into the DMC industry. And I helped, I helped them build that corporate division, or that DMC division. I owned my own agency for, I think, 14 years, still alive and thriving. And then I worked for angel investors, helping them flip and underperforming. It was actually a franchise. It was an office franchise of a global DMC at the time. So I've had success in different areas of Destination Management, and I was lucky in that I believe in accreditation and certification. That's important to me. Credibility matters. And so I. Involved in the association called the association of Destination Management executives international admei I know it's a mouthful, but I wound up serving on their board of directors and their certification and accreditation board for 14 years, throughout my career, and on the cab their certification accreditation board, my company was one of the first companies in the country to become a certified company, admc certified. I was so proud of that, and I had all of my staff. I paid for all of them to earn their certification, which was a destination management Certified Professional. That's the designation. I loved, that we could be a part of it. And I helped write a course, a university level course, and it was only nine weeks, so half a semester in teaching students what destination management is that took me three years. It was a passion project with a couple of other board members on the cab that we put together, and really glad to be a part of that and contributing to writing the book best practices in destination management, first and second edition. So I feel lucky that I was in this field at a time where it was really growing deeper roots. It had been transport the industry. When I went into it was maybe 20 years young, and when I left it, it been around for 40 plus years. So it's kind of exciting. So you so you   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 said that you started a company and you were with it for 4014 years, or you ran it for 14 years, and you said, it's still around. Are you involved with it at all? Now, I   Rachelle Stone ** 21:51 am not. I did a buyout with the I had two partners at the time. And without going into too much detail, there were some things going on that I felt were I could not align with. I felt it was unethical. I felt it was immoral, and I struggled for a year to make the decision. I spoke to a therapist, and I ultimately consulted an attorney, and I did a buyout, and I walked away from my this was my legacy. This was my baby. I built it from scratch. I was the face of the company. So to give that up my legacy, it was a really tough decision, but it really did come full circle, because late last year, something happened which brought me back to that decision, and I can, with 100% certainty, say it was a values driven decision for me, and I'm so happy I made that decision. So I am today. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 22:57 and, and let's, let's get to that a little bit so you at some point, you said that you had burnout and you left the industry. Why did you do that?   Rachelle Stone ** 23:08 So after I did, sold my my business, I worked for angel investors for about three and a half years. They brought me in. This was an underperforming office that the franchisee, because they had owned it for 10 years, had done a buyout themselves and sold it back to the angel investors or the private equity so they brought me in to run the office and bring it from surviving to thriving again. And it took me about 18 months, and I brought it from under a million to over 5.3 million in 18 months. So it's quite successful. And I had said to the owners, as they're thanking me and rewarding me, and it was a great first two years, I had said to them, please don't expect this again. This was a fluke. People were following me. There was a lot of curiosity in the industry, because this was a really big move for me to sell my company and then go work for this one. It was big news. So it was a great time. But the expectation for me to repeat, rinse and repeat, that kind of productivity was not realistic. It just wasn't realistic. And about a year and a half later, I just, I was driving from the Lowe's Miami Beach. It's funny, because I used that as an example before, to the breakers in Palm Beach. And if you know South Florida at all, it's, it's, you're taking your life in your hands every time you get on 95 it's a nightmare. Anyway, so I'm driving from the lows to the breakers, and I just left a kind of a rough meeting. I don't even remember what it was anymore, because that was back in 2014 and I'm driving to another meeting at the breakers, and I hang up the phone with somebody my. Son calls about something, Mom, this is going on for graduation. Can you be there? And I'm realizing I'm going to be out of town yet again for work, and I'm driving to the breakers, and I'm having this I just had this vision of myself in the middle of 95 slamming the brakes on in my car, coming to a full stop in the middle of the highway. I did not do this this, and I don't recommend you do this. And I opened up my car door, and I literally just walked away from my car. That was the image in my mind. And in that moment, I knew it was time for me to leave. I had gone as high as I could go. I'd done as much as I could do. I'd served on boards, contributed to books, spoken on panels. I wanted to go back to being an entrepreneur. I didn't want to work for angel investors anymore. I wanted to work for myself. I wanted to build something new, and I didn't want to do it in the DMC world. So I went home that night thinking I was going to just resign. Instead, I wrote a letter of retirement, and I retired from the industry, I walked away two and a half weeks later, and I said I was never going to return.   Michael Hingson ** 26:09 And so I burnt out, though at the time, what? What eventually made you realize that it was all burnt out, or a lot of it was burnt out. So I   Rachelle Stone ** 26:17 didn't know anything about burnout at that time. I just knew I was incredibly frustrated. I was bored. I was over in competence, and I just wanted out. Was just done. I had done well enough in my industry that I could take a little time. I had a lot of people asking me to take on consulting projects. So I did. I started doing some consulting in hospitality. And while I was doing that, I was kind of peeling away the layers of the onion, saying, What do I want to do next? I did not want to do DMC. That's all I knew. So I started this exploration, and what came out of it was an interest in exploring the field of coaching. So I did some research. I went to the coachingfederation.org which is the ICF International coaching Federation, is the leading accreditation body for coaches in the world. And through them, I researched Who were some of the accredited schools. I narrowed it down. I finally settled on one, and I said, I'm going to sign up for one course. I just want to see what this coaching is all about. So I signed up for a foundations course with the with the school out of Pennsylvania, and probably about three weeks into the course, the professor said something which was like a light bulb moment for me, and that I realized like, oh my   Speaker 1 ** 27:40 god, I burnt out. And I was literally, at this   Rachelle Stone ** 27:46 time, we're in school, we're on the phone. It was not zoom. We didn't have all this yet. It was you were on the phone, and then you were pulling up documents on your computer so the teacher couldn't see me crying. I was just sobbing, knowing that this is i i was so I was I was stunned. I didn't say anything. I sat on this for a while. In fact, I sat on it. I started researching it, but I didn't tell anybody for two years. It took me two years before I finally admitted to somebody that I had burnt out. I was so ashamed, embarrassed, humiliated, I was this successful, high over achiever. How could I have possibly burnt out?   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 What? What did the teacher say   Rachelle Stone ** 28:37 it was? I don't even remember what it was, but I remember that shock of realization of wellness, of it was, you know what it was that question, is this all? There is a lot of times when we were they were talking about, I believe, what they were talking about, midlife crisis and what really brings them on. And it is that pivotal question, is this really all there is, is this what I'm meant to be doing? And then in their conversation, I don't even remember the full conversation, it was that recognition of that's what's happened to me. And as I started researching it, this isn't now. This is in 2015 as I'm researching it and learning there's not a lot on it. I mean, there's some, mostly people's experiences that are being shared. Then in 2019 the World Health Organization officially, officially recognizes burnout as a phenomenon, an occupational phenomenon.   Michael Hingson ** 29:38 And how would you define burnout? Burnout is,   Rachelle Stone ** 29:43 is generally defined in three areas. It is. It's the the, oh, I always struggle with it. It's that disconnect, the disconnect, or disassociation from. Um, wanting to succeed, from your commitment to the work. It is the knowing, the belief that no one can do it well or right. It is there. There's that. It's an emotional disconnect from from from caring about what you're doing and how you're showing up, and it shows up in your personal life too, which is the horrible thing, because it your it impacts your family so negatively, it's horrible.   Michael Hingson ** 30:39 And it it, it does take a toll. And it takes, did it take any kind of a physical toll on you?   Rachelle Stone ** 30:45 Well, what I didn't realize when I when I took this time, I was about 25 pounds overweight. I was on about 18 different medications, including all my vitamins. I was taking a lot of vitamins at that time too. Um, I chronic sciatica, insomnia. I was self medicating. I was also going out, eating rich dinners and drinking, um, because you're because of the work I was doing. I had to entertain. That was part of that was part of of my job. So as I was looking at myself, Yes, physically, it turns out that this weight gain, the insomnia, the self medication, are also taught signs of of risk of burnout. It's how we manage our stress, and that's really what it comes down to, that we didn't even know. We don't even know. People don't no one teaches us how to process our stress, and that that's really probably one of the biggest things that I've through, everything that I've studied, and then the pandemic hitting it. No one teaches us how to manage our stress. No one tells us that if we process stress, then the tough stuff isn't as hard anymore. It's more manageable. No one teaches us about how to shift our mindsets so we can look at changing our perspective at things, or only seeing things through our lizard brain instead of our curious brain. These are all things that I had no idea were keeping me I didn't know how to do, and that were part of contributing to my burnout. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 32:43 Is stress more self created, or is it? Is it an actual thing? In other words, when, when there is stress in the world? Is it something that, really, you create out of a fear or cause to happen in some way, and in reality, there are ways to not necessarily be stressful, and maybe that's what you're talking about, as far as learning to control it and process it, well,   Rachelle Stone ** 33:09 there's actually there's stresses. Stressors are external. Stress is internal. So a stressor could be the nagging boss. It could be your kid has a fever and you're going to be late for work, or you're going to miss a meeting because you have to take them to the doctor. That's an external stressor, right? So that external stressor goes away, you know, the traffic breaks up, or your your husband takes the kid to the doctor so you can get to your meeting. Whatever that external stress, or is gone, you still have to deal with the stress that's in your body. Your that stress, that stress builds up. It's it's cortisol, and that's what starts with the physical impact. So those physical symptoms that I was telling you about, that I had, that I didn't know, were part of my burnout. It was unprocessed stress. Now at that time, I couldn't even touch my toes. I wasn't doing any sort of exercise for my body. I wasn't and that is one of the best ways you can process stress. Stress actually has to cycle out of your body. No one tells us that. No one teaches us that. So how do you learn how to do that?   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Well, of course, that's Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was gonna   Rachelle Stone ** 34:24 say it's learning. It's being willing to look internally, what's going on in your body. How are you really getting in touch with your emotions and feelings and and processing them well?   Michael Hingson ** 34:37 And you talk about stressors being external, but you have control. You may not have control directly over the stressor happening, but don't you have control over how you decide to deal with the external stress? Creator,   Rachelle Stone ** 34:55 yes, and that external stress will always. Go away. The deadline will come and go. The sun will still rise tomorrow in set tomorrow night. Stressors always go away, but they're also constantly there. So you've got, for instance, the nagging boss is always going to bring you stress. It's how you process the stress inside. You can choose to ignore the stressor, but then you're setting yourself up for maybe not following through on your job, or doing   Michael Hingson ** 35:29 right. And I wouldn't suggest ignoring the stressor, but you it's processing that   Rachelle Stone ** 35:34 stress in your body. It's not so let's say, at the end of the rough day, the stressors gone. You still, whether you choose to go for a walk or you choose to go home and say, Honey, I just need a really like I need a 62nd full on contact, bear hug from you, because I'm holding a lot of stress in my body right now, and I've got to let it out So that physical contact will move stress through your body. This isn't this is they that? You can see this in MRI studies. You see the decrease in the stress. Neuroscience now shows this to be true. You've got to move it through your body. Now before I wanted to kind of give you the formal definition of burnout, it is, it is they call it a occupational phenomenal, okay, it by that they're not calling it a disease. It is not classified as a disease, but it is noted in the International Classification of Diseases, and it has a code now it is they do tie it directly to chronic workplace stress, and this is where I have a problem with the World Health Organization, because when they added this to the International Classification of diseases in 2019 they didn't have COVID. 19 hybrid or work from home environments in mind, and it is totally changed. Stress and burnout are following people around. It's very difficult for them to escape. So besides that, that disconnect that I was talking about, it's really complete exhaustion, depletion of your energy just drained from all of the stressors. And again, it's that reduced efficiency in your work that you're producing because you don't care as much. It's that disconnect so and then the physical symptoms do build up. And burnout isn't like this. It's not an overnight thing. It's a build up, just like gaining 25 pounds, just like getting sick enough that I need a little bit more medication for different issues, that stuff builds up on you and when you when you're recovering from burnout, you didn't get there overnight. You're not going to get out of it overnight either. It's I worked with a personal trainer until I could touch my toes, and then she's pushed me out to go join a gym. But again, it's step by step, and learning to eat healthy, and then ultimately, the third piece that really changed the game for me was learning about the muscles in my brain and getting mentally fit. That was really the third leg of getting my health back.   Michael Hingson ** 38:33 So how does all of that help you deal with stress and the potential of burnout today? Yeah,   Rachelle Stone ** 38:43 more than anything, I know how to prevent it. That is my, my the number one thing I know when I'm sensing a stressor that is impacting me, I can quickly get rid of it. Now, for instance, I'll give you a good example. I was on my the board of directors for my Homeowners Association, and that's always   Michael Hingson ** 39:03 stressful. I've been there, right? Well, I   Rachelle Stone ** 39:06 was up for an hour and a half one night ruminating, and I I realized, because I coach a lot of people around burnout and symptoms, so when I was ruminating, I recognized, oh my gosh, that HOA does not deserve that much oxygen in my brain. And what did I do the next day? I resigned. Resigned, yeah, so removing the stressors so I can process the stress. I process my stress. I always make sure I schedule a beach walk for low tide. I will block my calendar for that so I can make sure I'm there, because that fills my tank. That's self care for me. I make sure I'm exercising, I'm eating good food. I actually worked with a health coach last year because I felt like my eating was getting a little off kilter again. So I just hired a coach for a few months to help me get back on track. Of getting support where I need it. That support circle is really important to maintain and process your stress and prevent burnout.   Michael Hingson ** 40:10 So we've talked a lot about stress and dealing with it and so on. And like to get back to the idea of you went, you explored working with the international coaching Federation, and you went to a school. So what did you then do? What really made you attracted to the idea of coaching, and what do you get out of it?   Rachelle Stone ** 40:35 Oh, great question. Thanks for that. So for me, once I I was in this foundations course, I recognized or realized what had happened to me. I i again, kept my mouth shut, and I just continued with the course. By the end of the course, I really, really enjoyed it, and I saw I decided I wanted to continue on to become a coach. So I just continued in my training. By the end of 2015 early 2016 I was a coach. I went and joined the international coaching Federation, and they offer accreditation. So I wanted to get accredited, because, as I said, from my first industry, a big proponent for credit accreditation. I think it's very important, especially in an unregulated industry like coaching. So we're not bound by HIPAA laws. We are not doctors, we are coaches. It's very different lane, and we do self regulate. So getting accredited is important to me. And I thought my ACC, which my associate a certified coach in 2016 when I moved to the area I'm living in now, in 2017 and I joined the local chapter here, I just continued on. I continued with education. I knew my lane is, is, is burnout. I started to own it. I started to bring it forward a little bit and talk about my experiences with with other coaches and clients to help them through the years and and it felt natural. So with the ICF, I wanted to make sure I stayed in a path that would allow me to hang my shingle proudly, and everything I did in the destination management world I'm now doing in the coaching world. I wound up on the board of directors for our local chapter as a programming director, which was so perfect for me because I'm coming from meetings and events, so as a perfect person to do their programming, and now I am their chapter liaison, and I am President Elect, so I'm taking the same sort of leadership I had in destination management and wrapping my arms around it in the coaching industry,   Michael Hingson ** 42:56 you talk about People honing their leadership skills to help prepare them for a career move or their next career. It isn't always that way, though, right? It isn't always necessarily that they're going to be going to a different career. Yep,   Rachelle Stone ** 43:11 correct. Yeah. I mean, not everybody's looking for trans transition. Some people are looking for that to break through the glass ceiling. I have other clients that are just wanting to maybe move laterally. Others are just trying to figure it out every client is different. While I specialize in hospitality and burnout, I probably have more clients in the leadership lane, Senior VP level, that are trying to figure out their next step, if they want to go higher, or if they're content where they are, and a lot of that comes from that ability to find the right balance for you in between your career and your personal life. I think there comes a point when we're in our younger careers, we are fully identified by what we do. I don't think that's true for upcoming generations, but for our generation, and maybe Jen, maybe some millennials, very identified by what they do, there comes a point in your career, and I'm going to say somewhere between 35 and 50, where you recognize that those two Things need to be separate,   Michael Hingson ** 44:20 and the two things being   Rachelle Stone ** 44:23 your identity, who you are from what you do, got it two different things. And a lot of leaders on their journey get so wrapped up in what they do, they lose who they are.   Michael Hingson ** 44:39 What really makes a good leader,   Rachelle Stone ** 44:42 authenticity. I'm a big proponent of heart based leadership. Brene Brown, I'm Brene Brown trained. I am not a facilitator, but I love her work, and I introduce all my clients to it, especially my newer leaders. I think it's that. Authenticity that you know the command and control leadership no longer works. And I can tell you, I do work with some leaders that are trying to improve their human skills, and by that I mean their emotional intelligence, their social skills, their ability to interact on a human level with others, because when they have that high command and control directive type of leadership, they're not connecting with their people. And we now have five generations in the workforce that all need to be interacted with differently. So command and control is a tough kind of leadership style that I actually unless they're willing to unless they're open to exploring other ways of leading, I won't work with them. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 and the reality is, I'm not sure command and control as such ever really worked. Yeah, maybe you control people. But did it really get you and the other person and the company? What what you needed.   Rachelle Stone ** 46:01 Generally, that's what we now call a toxic environment. Yes, yes. But that, you know, this has been, we've been on a path of, you know, this work ethic was supposed to, was supposed to become a leisure ethic in the 70s, you know, we went to 40 hour work weeks. Where are we now? We're back up to 6070, hour work week. Yeah, we're trying to lower the age that so kids can start working this is not a leisure ethic that we were headed towards. And now with AI, okay, let's change this conversation. Yeah, toxic environments are not going to work. Moving forward that command and control leadership. There's not a lot of it left, but there's, it's lingering, and some of the old guard, you know, there it's, it's slowly changing.   Michael Hingson ** 46:49 It is, I think, high time that we learn a lot more about the whole concept of teamwork and true, real team building. And there's a lot to be said for there's no I in team, that's right, and it's an extremely important thing to learn. And I think there are way to, still, way too many people who don't recognize that, but it is something that I agree with you. Over time, it's it's starting to evolve to a different world, and the pandemic actually was one, and is one of the things that helps it, because we introduced the hybrid environment, for example, and people are starting to realize that they can still get things done, and they don't necessarily have to do it the way they did before, and they're better off for it.   Rachelle Stone ** 47:38 That's right. Innovation is beautiful. I actually, I mean, as horrible as the pandemic was it, there was a lot of good that came out of it, to your point. And it's interesting, because I've watched this in coaching people. I remember early in the pandemic, I had a new client, and they came to the they came to their first call on Zoom, really slumped down in the chair like I could barely see their nose and up and, you know, as we're kind of talking, getting to know each other. One of the things they said to me, because they were working from home, they were working like 1011, hours a day. Had two kids, a husband, and they also had yet they're, they're, they're like, I one of the things they said to me, which blew my mind, was, I don't have time to put on a load of laundry. They're working from home. Yeah? It's that mindset that you own my time because you're paying me, yeah, versus I'm productive and I'm doing good work for you. Is why you're paying for paying me? Yeah? So it's that perception and trying to shift one person at a time, shifting that perspective   Michael Hingson ** 48:54 you talked before about you're a coach, you're not a doctor, which I absolutely appreciate and understand and in studying coaching and so on, one of the things that I read a great deal about is the whole concept of coaches are not therapists. A therapist provides a decision or a position or a decision, and they are more the one that provides a lot of the answers, because they have the expertise. And a coach is a guide who, if they're doing their job right, leads you to you figuring out the answer. That's   Rachelle Stone ** 49:34 a great way to put it, and it's pretty clear. That's, that's, that's pretty, pretty close the I like to say therapy is a doctor patient relationship. It's hierarchy so and the doctor is diagnosing, it's about repair and recovery, and it's rooted in the past, diagnosing, prescribing, and then the patient following orders and recovering. Hmm, in coaching, it's a peer to peer relationship. So it's, we're co creators, and we're equal. And it's, it's based on future goals only. It's only based on behavior change and future goals. So when I have clients and they dabble backwards, I will that's crossing the line. I can't support you there. I will refer clients to therapy. And actually, what I'm doing right now, I'm taking a mental health literacy course through Harvard Medical Center and McLean University. And the reason I'm doing this is because so many of my clients, I would say 80% of my clients are also in therapy, and it's very common. We have a lot of mental health issues in the world right now as a result of the pandemic, and we have a lot of awareness coming forward. So I want to make sure I'm doing the best for my clients in recognizing when they're at need or at risk and being able to properly refer them.   Michael Hingson ** 51:04 Do you think, though, that even in a doctor patient relationship, that more doctors are recognizing that they accomplish more when they create more of a teaming environment? Yes,   51:18 oh, I'm so glad you   Rachelle Stone ** 51:20 brought that up, okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Love that. I have clients who are in therapy, and I ask them to ask their therapist so that if they're comfortable with this trio. And it works beautifully. Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 it is. It just seems to me that, again, there's so much more to be said for the whole concept of teaming and teamwork, and patients do better when doctors or therapists and so on explain and bring them into the process, which almost makes them not a coach as you are, but an adjunct to what you do, which is what I think it's all about. Or are we the adjunct to what they do? Or use the adjunct to what they do? Yeah, it's a team, which is what it should be.   52:11 Yeah, it's, I always it's like the Oreo cookie, right?   Michael Hingson ** 52:16 Yeah, and the frosting is in the middle, yeah, crying   Rachelle Stone ** 52:19 in the middle. But it's true, like a therapist can work both in the past and in the future, but that partnership and that team mentality and supporting a client, it helps them move faster and further in their in their desired goals. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 it's beautiful, yeah, yeah. And I think it's extremely important, tell me about this whole idea of mental fitness. I know you're studying that. Tell me more about that. Is it real? Is it okay? Or what? You know, a lot of people talk about it and they say it's who cares. They all roll   Rachelle Stone ** 52:56 their eyes mental fitness. What are you talking about? Yeah, um, I like to say mental fitness is the third leg of our is what keeps us healthy. I like to look at humans as a three legged stool, and that mental fitness, that mental wellness, is that third piece. So you have your spiritual and community wellness, you have your physical wellness, and then you have your mental wellness. And that mental wellness encompasses your mental health, your mental fitness. Now, mental fitness, by definition, is your ability to respond to life's challenges from a positive rather than a negative mindset. And there's a new science out there called positive it was actually not a new science. It's based on four sciences, Positive Intelligence, it's a cognitive behavioral science, or psychology, positive psychology, performance psychology, and drawing a bank anyway, four sciences and this body of work determined that there's actually a tipping point we live in our amygdala, mostly, and there's a reason, when we were cavemen, we needed to know what was coming that outside stressor was going to eat us, or if we could eat it. Yeah, but we have language now. We don't need that, not as much as we did, not in the same way, not in the same way, exactly. We do need to be aware of threats, but not every piece of information that comes into the brain. When that information comes in our brains, amplify it by a factor of three to one. So with that amplification, it makes that little, little tiny Ember into a burning, raging fire in our brain. And then we get stuck in stress. So it's recognizing, and there's actually you are building. If you do yoga, meditation, tai chi, gratitude journaling, any sort of those practices, you're flexing that muscle. You talk to somebody who does gratitude journaling who just started a month in, they're going to tell. You, they're happier. They're going to tell you they're not having as many ruminating thoughts, and they're going to say, I'm I'm smiling more. I started a new journal this year, and I said, I'm singing more. I'm singing songs that I haven't thought of in years. Yeah, out of the blue, popping into my head. Yeah. And I'm happier. So the the concept of mental fitness is really practicing flexing this muscle every day. We take care of our bodies by eating good food, we exercise or walk. We do that to take care of our physical body. We do nothing to take care of our brain other than scroll social media and get anxiety because everybody's life looks so perfect,   Michael Hingson ** 55:38 yeah, and all we're doing is using social media as a stressor.   Rachelle Stone ** 55:42 That's right, I'm actually not on social media on LinkedIn. That's it.   Michael Hingson ** 55:48 I have accounts, but I don't go to it exactly. My excuse is it takes way too long with a screen reader, and I don't have the time to do it. I don't mind posting occasionally, but I just don't see the need to be on social media for hours every day.   Rachelle Stone ** 56:05 No, no, I do, like, like a lot of businesses, especially local small businesses, are they advertise. They only have they don't have websites. They're only on Facebook. So I do need to go to social media for things like that. But the most part, no, I'm not there. Not at all. It's   Michael Hingson ** 56:20 it's way too much work. I am amazed sometimes when I'll post something, and I'm amazed at how quickly sometimes people respond. And I'm wondering to myself, how do you have the time to just be there to see this? It can't all be coincidence. You've got to be constantly on active social media to see it. Yeah,   Rachelle Stone ** 56:39 yeah, yeah. Which is and this, this whole concept of mental fitness is really about building a practice, a habit. It's a new habit, just like going to the gym, and it's so important for all of us. We are our behaviors are based on how we interpret these messages as they come in, yeah, so learning to reframe or recognize the message and give a different answer is imperative in order to have better communication, to be more productive and and less chaos. How   Michael Hingson ** 57:12 do we teach people to recognize that they have a whole lot more control over fear than they think they do, and that that really fear can be a very positive guide in our lives. And I say that because I talked about not being afraid of escaping from the World Trade Center over a 22 year period, what I realized I never did was to teach people how to do that. And so now I wrote a book that will be out later in the year. It's called Live like a guide dog, stories of from a blind man and his dogs, about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith. And the point of it is to say that you can control your fear. I'm not saying don't be afraid, but you have control over how you let that fear affect you and what you deal with and how you deal it's all choice. It is all choice. But how do we teach people to to deal with that better, rather than just letting fear build up   Rachelle Stone ** 58:12 it? Michael, I think these conversations are so important. Number one is that learner's mind, that willingness, that openness to be interested in finding a better way to live. I always say that's a really hard way to live when you're living in fear. Yeah, so step number one is an openness, or a willingness or a curiosity about wanting to live life better,   Michael Hingson ** 58:40 and we have to instill that in people and get them to realize that they all that we all have the ability to be more curious if we choose to do it.   Rachelle Stone ** 58:49 But again, choice and that, that's the big thing so many and then there's also, you know, Michael, I can't wait to read your book. I'm looking forward to this. I'm also know that you speak. I can't wait to see you speak. The thing is, when we speak or write and share this information, we give them insight. It's what they do with it that matters, which is why, when I with the whole with the mental fitness training that I do, it's seven weeks, yeah, I want them to start to build that habit, and I give them three extra months so they can continue to work on that habit, because it's that important for them to start. It's foundational your spirit. When you talk about your experience in the World Trade Center, and you say you weren't fearful, your spiritual practice is such a big part of that, and that's part of mental fitness too. That's on that layers on top of your ability to flex those mental muscles and lean into your spirituality and not be afraid.   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 Well, I'd love to come down and speak. If you know anybody that needs a speaker down there. I. I'm always looking for speaking opportunities, so love your help, and   1:00:03 my ears open for sure and live like   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:06 a guide dog. Will be out later this year. It's, it's, I've already gotten a couple of Google Alerts. The the publisher has been putting out some things, which is great. So we're really excited about it.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:00:16 Wonderful. I can't wait to see it. So what's   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:19 up for you in 2024   Rachelle Stone ** 1:00:22 so I actually have a couple of things coming up this year that are pretty big. I have a partner. Her name's vimari Roman. She's down in Miami, and I'm up here in the Dunedin Clearwater area. But we're both hospitality professionals that went into coaching, and we're both professional certified coaches, and we're both certified mental fitness coaches. When the pandemic hit, she's also a Career Strategist. She went she started coaching at conferences because the hospitality industry was hit so hard, she reached out to me and brought me in too. So in 2024 we've been coaching at so many conferences, we can't do it. We can't do it. It's just too much, but we also know that we can provide a great service. So we've started a new company. It's called coaches for conferences, and it's going to be like a I'll call it a clearing house for securing pro bono coaches for your conferences. So that means, let's say you're having a conference in in LA and they'd like to offer coaching, pro bono coaching to their attendees as an added value. I'll we'll make the arrangements for the coaches, local in your area to to come coach. You just have to provide them with a room and food and beverage and a place to coach on your conference floor and a breakout. So we're excited for that that's getting ready to launch. And I think 2024 is going to be the year for me to dip my toe in start writing my own story. I think it's time   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:02 writing a book. You can say it. I'm gonna do it.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:02:05 I'm gonna write a book Good. I've said it out loud. I've started to pull together some thoughts around I mean, I've been thinking about it for years. But yeah, if the timing feels right,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:21 then it probably is, yep, which makes sense. Well, this has been fun. It's been wonderful. Can you believe we've already been at this for more than an hour? So clearly we   1:02:33 this went so fast. Clearly we   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:35 did have fun. We followed the rule, this was fun. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening and for watching, if you're on YouTube watching, and all I can ask is that, wherever you are, please give us a five star rating for the podcast. We appreciate it. And anything that you want to say, we would love it. And I would appreciate you feeling free to email me and let me know your thoughts. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, would love to hear from you. You can also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and it's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, N, and as I said to Rochelle just a minute ago, if any of you need a speaker, we'd love to talk with you about that. You can also email me at [email protected] love to hear from you and love to talk about speaking. So however you you reach out and for whatever reason, love to hear from you, and for all of you and Rochelle, you, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, let us know we're always looking for people who want to come on the podcast. Doesn't cost anything other than your time and putting up with me for a while, but we appreciate it, and hope that you'll decide to to introduce us to other people. So with that, I again want to say, Rochelle, thank you to you. We really appreciate you being here and taking the time to chat with us today.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:04:13 It's been the fastest hour of my life. I'm gonna have to watch the replay. Thank you so much for having me. It's been my pleasure to join you.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:24 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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• Episode 333 – Unstoppable Life and Career Coach, and Career Enhancer with Jocelyn Sandstrom

  This time we get to meet Jocelyn Sandstrom, my first podcast guest from Hawaii. Jocelyn was born and raised in Hawaii. Tt the urging of her mother, she took her first modeling job when she was sixteen. As she tells the story, she grew up quiet and pretty shy and she didn’t have a great deal of confidence in herself. After high school, modeling became her full-time career. She says that the urging and support of her mother caused her to make some of the best decisions in her life. Modeling, she tells us, brought her out of herself. She traveled to 12 countries over a 20-year modeling career. She loved every minute of the experience.   In 2003 she began thinking that she wanted to help others deal with their confidence and career issues. By 2010 she decided that she was experiencing burnout as a model and changed to a coaching career that, in part, helped others to recognize burnout and deal with it. Jocelyn provides us with some good life pointers and lessons to help us change our mindset from the usual negative “I have to do this” to a more positive view “I get to do this”. I leave it to her to tell more.   Jocelyn does offer many insights I am sure you will appreciate. Over her 15-year coaching career she has become certified in several disciplines, and she uses them to teach her clients how to shift their careers to more positive and strong efforts going forward.       About the Guest:   Growing up in Hawaii, Jocelyn has lived and worked in 12 different countries. This experience has allowed her to realize that even though we may speak different languages or have different traditions, at our core, we are all the same. She has used this knowledge to help and support clients around the world in creating next-level success not just in their careers but in their personal lives as well.    Since 2010, she has been providing Quantum Energy Sessions and teaching Neuro-Linguistic Programming, Neurological Re-patterning, and the Millennium Method to clients globally. In 2022, she founded Wellness and Metaphysical, a community-driven platform that promotes a higher level of consciousness through expos and retreats.   Jocelyn's mindset and energy work have propelled her career, allowing her to work with leading global luxury brands like Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Fendi, Cartier, Tiffany & Co., Christian Louboutin, and Yves Saint Laurent, among others. She has been featured on the covers of Elle, Marie Claire, Esquire, Harper's Bazaar, and more. Alongside her husband, she has hosted two travel shows and appeared in various feature and short films. After creating a career beyond her wildest dreams through quantum manifestations, her passion is to now help others do the same, whether it’s business, health, relationships, or any aspect of life.   Jocelyn specializes in helping clients release deep-rooted issues from their past that are holding them back. She supports clients in building not just success but also fulfillment at the same time because success without fulfillment is empty, leading to burnout and anxiety. She supports her clients to discover their authentic truth and share that with the world, magnetizing their energy to start attracting people and opportunities out of the blue, enabling them to fall in love with themselves and their life while creating more success than ever before!   Jocelyn is a certified:   Neuro-Linguistic Programing Advanced Practitioner + Teacher Neurological Re-patterning Practitioner + Teacher Ericksonian Hypnosis Practitioner + Teacher Millennium Method™ Practitioner + Teacher Yuen Method™ Practitioner Reiki Practitioner.   Ways to connect Jocelyn:   Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jocelynlukosandstrom/?hl=en Facebook https://www.facebook.com/jocelyn.lukosandstrom/ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelyn-luko-sandstrom-4789882a/  Website www.jocelynsandstrom.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 01:56 Thank you so much, and I do hope you come back again. It's such an honor to be on your podcast. Well, it's   Michael Hingson ** 02:02 been a while. It's only been 15 years since I've been there, and it is time to come back, but my wife passed away, and so it's kind of not nearly as fun to come alone, unless, unless I come and people keep me busy over there, but we'll figure it out.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 02:17 Yes, I'm so sorry about your wife, and if you want, I will show you around here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 Well, we'll have to make something happen. We'll just, we'll just do it. Yes, but I'm really glad that you're here. Um, Jocelyn is an interesting individual, and by any standard, she is a we're a neurological repatterning practitioner plus teacher. She has a lot of things. She does neuro linguistics. She is also a Reiki Master and practitioner, and just a number of things, and we're going to get to all of that, but I want to, again, welcome you and really glad that you're taking the time to be with us instead of being with clients, with all the things that you do.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 03:11 Thank you so much for your time. I love your podcast and everything, all the messages that you're bringing out onto the world.   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 Well, thank you. It has been a lot of fun to be able to do it and continue to do it, and we're having a lot of fun doing it, so I can't complain a whole lot about that. It's just a lot of fun. And I as I tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as everybody else, then I'm not doing my job right. So I'm really glad that I get to learn so much from from people as well. Well, why don't we start, as I love to do, with learning about the early Jocelyn, growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 03:49 Well, I did grow up in Hawaii, and I, like every a lot of people, we went through a lot of growing pains. I had a lot that I did grow through, and it wasn't until I started my first contract overseas when I was 16 that life shifted for me, and I started to find my people and started to come into my own, get you know, transcending above the bullying and everything that happened in childhood. And then I lived overseas for about 20 years and moved home in 2016 to be with my family again.   Michael Hingson ** 04:29 So where did you live for those 20 years? I lived in   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 04:31 12 different countries around the world. Um, I absolutely for me, it was I just loved exploring different cultures. It wasn't like going on vacation, to me, is amazing, but going to a place, living there, working with the people, learning the culture, learning the different ways that they work in, you know, speaking like the languages I only you know, spoke a very little bit of each language, just like taxi language, right? Um. And then just immersing into the culture, just the food tastes different in every place as well. Like it could be the same thing, but it just tastes different. Life is so different. And for me, that was my passion, really, to just immerse into different cultures, different parts of the world, different parts of me as well. Because every time I went to another country, I became a different person. There was another side of me that got ignited that I didn't even know was there. And so I got to not only discover myself, but I got to discover the world.   Michael Hingson ** 05:30 What made you go to so many different countries? What started all that?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 05:35 Well, I was modeling so I was able to do contracts in different countries. And so whenever I wanted to go to their country, I just contacted an agency there, and I got a contract and went and so basically, the world was my oyster. And I just said, Where do I desire to go next? And then Khan reached out. Instead of waiting for someone to come to me, I reached out to that, you know, to agencies over there and got a contract and went over. So I've never, once I started that. I've never been one to sit around and wait for things to kind of come to me. It's always been this is what I desire. So now let me go and create that to happen. And that's how I created my last career to be so successful. And there's so many things that I learned along the way that not only can you use that, but also to do it in a way that doesn't burn you out. And so that's my passion now, is to help people to build success and fulfillment, not just the success. Because I had burnt out pretty bad, and I in hindsight, if I had done it differently, I probably could have built it even bigger without the burnout. And so that's my passion now, and that's how I built this career, is through that fulfillment and success at the same time, so that it's so fulfilling, as well as creating next level results.   Michael Hingson ** 06:59 Did you go to college? Or did you go from high school into modeling?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 07:03 I went straight in. What   Michael Hingson ** 07:06 started you with that? My   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 07:08 mom, of course, it's always your mom, right? Of course, because I was very shy, and like I said, I went through a lot growing up, through bullying and all of this. So for me, it was like the best blessing that's ever happened. For me, I was very scared, but I knew that I wanted to explore and try, and it brought me out of my shell. It brought me to my people. It was the first time that, you know, people like, wanted to hear what I had to say, really, like, they were fascinated. And I was like, what, you know, and again, again, what I realized, now after all this time, is I had a perception growing up here in Hawaii, so necessarily, I've been finding out that not people did not have that same perception that I had about myself. I realized I was almost the one that was not coming out of my shell fully, and therefore it was hard to connect, I think, and people have a different perception of me. So looking back on my childhood now, when I say bullying, yes, there was bullying and there was, you know, but overall, there were also things that I perceived in a way that wasn't necessarily true for other people, because I would run into them and they'd remember me, and they'd have remember a different version of me, and I'd be like, it's, you know? And so I realize now how much I actually also held my back, held myself back, and, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 08:39 did that affect your modeling career, because I would think as a model, you'd have to be reasonably outgoing and be able to work in a variety of different kinds of situations.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 08:49 I think it was what helped me to be resilient growing up through the hardships of what I went through, you know, with relationships and everything. That's what got me to be resilient, to stick it out. Because not everybody does stick it out. Because there is a ton of rejection, there is a ton there is a ton of things that you're going through at a very young age. My first contract was when I was 16 in high school during the summer, and so to be able to handle obviously, you know, there's a lot of not so nice things in the industry as well, too. So to be able to handle that, I think that came from everything that I grew through as a child, as well as my mom's support, because she was the one, the one thing that was stable throughout my life, where I would always call her, because I was living in so many different countries, I think you know, she was my best friend, and so that, and living in all those different countries helping me to be so resilient, is what Korea helped me to create this business to be so success, successful as well,   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 what some of the countries that you stayed in went to, well, some. Of   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 10:00 my favorite I started in Tokyo, and then I went to Korea, Sydney, Milan, Hamburg, London. I did live in New York for a little while, Taiwan, China, you know, like, there's so many different places. Like, some of my favorites definitely were Tokyo, because that was and Hong Kong was where I spent most of my time at the end. And I, of course, loved Milan and Sydney as well as London as well too. And of course, New York is just Memphis.   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 I enjoy Tokyo. I've been to Japan twice, not for long periods. Well, the second time, actually, I guess the third time I've been there three times, and the last time was when we did work with the Japanese publisher of my first book, Thunder dog. And we were there for almost two weeks. It was a lot of fun, but mostly I spent time around Tokyo until thunder dog, and then we were all over Japan. But it was very enjoyable. What I really remember the first time I went to Japan. We were over there about four days, I tried to eat very healthy, um, although I had ice cream with every meal, because they insisted, and all that, when I came back, I had lost my pal. I can't believe it. Wow. I know that didn't happen the second and third time, but I didn't gain weight either, so it's okay, but I really enjoyed Japan. I've been to Korea. Enjoyed that as well. Not been to Australia. I'm still want to go. I've been to New Zealand, but not Australia. Yeah.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 11:36 Australia is an amazing place, the people, the food, just the lifestyle,   Michael Hingson ** 11:43 yeah, yeah. And it is, of course, so different because it's on the other side of the equator. So right now they're getting into their summer season.   Speaker 1 ** 11:52 Yes, yes, absolutely. So it's pretty   Michael Hingson ** 11:55 cool. Was your mama model? Is that what got you guys to get you into it or No, no, she just, she just thought it was good for you,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 12:04 huh? Yeah, exactly. And thank goodness she did, because, honestly, it was the thing that got me out of my shell. It like for me to go and live in Tokyo when I was 16 during the summer. It showed me that high school wasn't everything, because I was so consumed by, you know, school kids and the cool kids and not being cool and all of those things. And when I went over there, I realized, wow, there is a whole other world outside of this. And it completely changed my life. And so when I came back, I didn't relate to everybody in the same way. I wasn't so consumed with everything, because I knew what was waiting for me. I knew that there was so much more to explore and to experience. So it really was the thing that completely changed my life, and I will always be grateful for that on how it allowed me to grow and through the years, I grew through that. Like each contract I did, I grew, I stretched myself, each country that I went to, where I didn't know anybody except for the agency, and lived, you know, with new people, and had a map that they would give you, and you'd have to go and find your castings on your own, before we had Google Maps, using a paper map, and just, you know, walking down the street and looking for the places like it just stretched me in so many beautiful ways. And I wish everyone could go through that experience. Because when you put yourself into places where you stretch, you just you access the strength that's actually within you. It's just compounding your resilience and your power and your knowing within yourself, and that's what makes you unstoppable. When you know you can do all those things and you've done all those things, the next step is that much easier because you've already done it.   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Yeah, um, there's so many ways of stretching and growing. I was just reading an email from someone I'm the vice president on the board of directors of the Colorado Center for the Blind, which is a training center that teaches newly blinded people or people who are losing their eyesight, teaching them blindness techniques and teaching them that blindness isn't the problem. It's really our attitudes about it. And one of the things, if you go to the center and take advantage of the full residential program, one of the last things that you have to do is you are dropped off somewhere within some sort of walking distance of the agency itself. But that could be a couple miles Well, it may not even be just a couple miles away. It may be that you're further, but you have to figure out where you are and get back to the center. And you can only ask one question of the public, so it's all about you learning to use your wit, your wits, and people do it all the time, right? Awesome, and it's so cool me, and so I really relate very much to what you're talking about, as far as how you learned to stretch and grow with all the modeling and being in all those foreign countries and having to learn to live there.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 15:13 Yeah, that's so powerful. That's so amazing. What you're what you've done, and your story is so inspiring and so powerful.   Michael Hingson ** 15:21 Well, I I never did go to that center, and so I never actually, directly was subjected to that. However, with all the traveling that I've done around the world, I've had to essentially do the same thing, so I know what you're talking about, and it's so exhilarating when you figure it out, right? Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 15:41 it is, and and that's why we're here. We're here to experience all those things, because if not, it would just be so boring. And so one of the things that I always, you know, remind myself and my clients, is that, you know, we may be in a place that's crunchy and doesn't feel great, but we're growing through it. And when we do grow through it, the feeling of getting on the other side is what why we why we do it. And once we get to the other side, or let's say you're climbing a mountain, and you get to the top of the mountain, you don't want to just sit at the top of the mountain. You want to climb another mountain, because it's the journey. That's the thing that we enjoy. And so when we embrace the journey, not only do we get to where we desire to go, to feel that feeling of like accomplishment, but also we get to enjoy the journey instead of just trying to rush through it to get there.   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 I somewhere in my life, probably when I was fairly young, decided, although I didn't articulate it for a while, but decided that life is an adventure, and wherever we go, we can find very positive things. And I have never found a place that I hated, that I didn't like to go to. I've been all over this country and and I have eaten some some pretty unhealthy food in places, very deep fried kinds of things and so on. But I've also found ways to enjoy some of it, although I tried to eat as little of the bad food, if you will, that's high in cholesterol and so on. I've tried to eat as little of that as possible. But I've enjoyed everywhere I have been. I've been been to all 50 states, had a lot of fun in every place where I've been, and wouldn't trade any of those experiences for anything, much less traveling to a variety of other countries. Mm hmm, so it's a lot of fun to, you know, to do, but life is an adventure, and we should approach it that way. Mm   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 17:40 hmm, yeah, absolutely. And when we do approach it that way, we enjoy it so much more, because I used to always avoid making a mistake or things going wrong or get so frustrated that it wasn't wrong or that it wasn't going well. But now I I lean into those things, and it's those things that make life interesting. It's those things like the mistakes that I make, I grow more from those mistakes than from anything else. And through the hardships that I've been through, I've grown so much from those as well, too. And so when we lean into the journey and just know that there is no good, bad, right, wrong, it's just the experience of what it is. We live in a completely different way, and we can like I was telling my clients in one of the webinars I was running the other day that my husband and I had read the book celestian prophecy. And so he goes on a journey, and he doesn't plan anything. He just shows up and he listens to, you know, synchronicities, and he kind of goes with that. And so when we went to Jordan, we did the same thing. We're like, you know what, let's just go play. Let's go play and have no plan, and just arrive and discover what we're gonna do. And so we did that. And then we ended up, you know, meeting this one tour company, and ended up booking them, but it ended up turning out that they weren't the best, and we kind of got ripped off. But the driver that they hired was amazing, and he gave us like these special tours and things because he felt bad that we did get ripped off. And so the thing that looked like it was something bad actually was a blessing, and ended up turning out into this most incredible trip. And so when we make these so called wrong decisions, and we realize that it's not wrong, that it's leading us to something better, we don't have to get upset about it, like we weren't upset that that happened. We were just on the journey and the adventure of it, and that actually turned out to be one of our most incredible trips.   Michael Hingson ** 19:38 One of the things that I have learned and talked about on this podcast occasionally is that there's no such thing as failure their learning experiences. And I like what you just said, because it isn't that they're something that goes wrong. It happened the way it did. And the question is, what did we learn from it? And I'll bet that that driver. I would never have done those special things for you if you had treated him differently and treated him in a in a negative way.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 20:08 Mm, hmm, yeah, if we were grumpy and angry, he would have said, Okay, well, too bad for you guys. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:15 yeah, forget you guys. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Well. You modeled for you said 20 years, right? Yes. And what made you decided that you wanted to give that up.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 20:29 So I actually started doing wellness in 2003 when my mom got sick, and that's when my whole world shifted. That's when I wanted to find a natural way to help her, to support her, and that's how I started doing neurological repatterning, neuro linguistic programming and Ericksonian hypnosis. Then I went into quantum physics based energy work, and was able to help her and the at the same time, I was working on my career and both her getting, you know, her recovering and getting stronger, and my career taking off, I thought, oh my gosh, like I want to help people do this. I don't want to just use it for myself. I want to help other people do this. So I actually started while I was still modeling, simultaneously teaching and doing sessions for clients, since 2010 and so I've been doing this since then, and now it's, I just want to do it full time. It's just, it's just so fulfilling to be able to support clients through shifts, to create things beyond their wildest dreams, to open up the ease and the flow, to remove the burnout to, you know, to know that anything is possible and that we create our reality, we get to create we, you know, like we're creating an abundance of things every single moment of every single day based on our thoughts. And so we can create an abundance of lack, or we can create an abundance of, you know, happiness and and it's really just not letting anything take our power. So one of the things that shifted in my life as well, too, was when I was able to not let anything ruin my day, not let anyone or anything ruin my day, not that things that weren't going my way ruin my day. I was just gonna say, Okay, well, this is going on. It's happening for me. So now what do I get to do with this? How do I get to transmute this? How do I turn it into something good, or turn it into my superpower? By practicing neutrality, practicing not reacting and creating more fallout that needs to happen. And so whenever things don't go my way. I don't get frustrated about it anymore. I know that it's an opportunity, opportunity for me to practice a new way of being or new way of thinking. And there was one day where everything was just going so wrong, like from the beginning, like big things too, and I didn't let it take my happiness away, and I didn't let myself get down by it. I was like, Well, what can I do instead? How can I transmute this? How can I like when I missed my yoga class, and I'm like, I'm just gonna go home and I'm gonna do it by myself. Nothing is gonna stop me. This is what I desire to do. And that was my, like, favorite day ever. I felt amazing. I got home after the day of all the things that didn't work out, like almost losing a $2,500 camera lens, and by the end of the day, just feeling so good about it. And my son was saying to me, Okay, I'm gonna go check the mailbox. And he went to go check the mailbox. And at the end of the day, after me not letting anything take my freedom. An electric bill came and we opened it up, but it wasn't a bill. It was a refund for $7,200 for some PV panels that we had purchased that we didn't know we were going to be getting a rebate for. And it just showed me that nothing can take my joy, and because of that, I'm not going to slow down the good things that are on their way to me, either. And so it just opens it up. And from that point on there I don't have bad days. I transmute them,   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 yeah? Which? Which is what we all can do, yeah. So how do you transmute them? Though? What? How do you really do that?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 24:19 Well, the one thing that really helps me is realizing that everything is happening for me, everything like everything is happening for me, to help me to learn, to help me to grow, to help me to create my next level of success. And if I look at it that way, I'm not the victim. But if I look at it as the victim like it's happening to me, I have no power. I've given my power to the situation, but if I know that it's happening for me and that I'm unstoppable and I'm resilient and I'm always going to find a way, because I'm never going to give up. So for instance, with that camera lens, I ordered a camera lens that Best Buy was meant to ship me, and I called them because it was a. A week. And they said, Oh, it looks like you actually picked it up from the store. So no one shipping you anything. You got the product already. And I said, No, I didn't there. It was out of stock, and the person that I bought it from ordered it to be shipped to my house. And they said, well, there's nothing we can do on my end. On their end, I have to go to the shop, find the person who sold it to me and talked to them, and so the old me would have reacted, freaked out, created all this necessary Fallout, gone in angry, but now I was like, You know what? It's going to work out. Somehow it's going to work out. I don't know how it's going to work out, but the more calm and neutral I am, the more that I just let it flow, instead of react to this. Somehow it's just going to work out. And if it doesn't, it's just money. Like, it's not my life, it's not the end of the world, it's just money, and I can make more money. And so when I approached it that way, and I went in to talk to them, I wasn't guns blazing, I wasn't, you know, angry, I just came in and I was like, hey, you know, this is a situation. I was wondering if you could help me. And somehow, magically, they were just like, oh yeah, no problem. I can see it. There's an issue, and we'll send you a new one. And then it arrived in a couple days. And so a lot of times it's our reaction that causes the issues. But if you know, sorry, no, go ahead. I was just going to say, if we know that, it's going to work out somehow, because we're never going to give up, nothing is going to break us. Then somehow, magically, it always does.   Michael Hingson ** 26:25 Did they or you have to figure out exactly what really did happen?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 26:31 Nope. And to me, it doesn't really matter, because as long as it works out, I'm just, I'm always taking the next step. I'm always, if something, you know, like I in the beginning, I would launch programs and no one would show up, and it wouldn't matter, I would just keep launching. Or, you know, I heard this one story that completely inspired me about Anthony Robbins, when he first started doing his programs, and he sold his first program out, he rented the the call for it, and not one person bought but it didn't stop him. He said to his four friends, Hey, can I pay you with pizza and soda so that you could sit here for four days so I could teach you my program? Because he knew where he was going, nothing was going to stop him. And so I do the same thing, like I sold a master class here in Hawaii, and most of my networks online. And so one person had showed up, signed up, and I was like, Okay, so maybe do I cancel this? But I just really felt like there was something that was going to happen. If I just teach it, it's going to stretch me, it's going to do something. I just kept showing up and selling it every single day, trying different ways of selling it, not out of scarcity, but out of okay, well, this is the universe or something giving me an opportunity to play, to practice, selling, to have fun with it. And so I did. And you know, the day of, there was still only two people that were going to be there, and I thought, maybe I should cancel it, because I'm going to look like a failure. But then I thought, I don't care what I don't care what people think. If I'm a failure or not, the only part of me that will be bruised is my ego, but I know that I'm so much more than that, and if Anthony Robbins can do that, I can do that. So I'm going to show up and I'm going to teach these people just as powerfully as if there was 100 people there. And so I showed up, and at first nobody was there, and I didn't care, because I didn't care anymore. I knew where I was going to build, but there is traffic and stuff, and then finally, by the end of it, nine people showed up out of the blue, and it was the one of the most amazing master classes that I taught, because I taught it in this new way of thinking, where I had I had overcome my fears of my ego, of failure and people what people Were going to think, because I knew where I was going. I was inspired by Anthony Robbins doing that. And if he can do that and build that, I can do that, you know what I mean. So   Michael Hingson ** 28:50 I do, yeah, I I'm a nosy person, and I would have wanted to try to find out what happened with the with the lens. And the reason I'd want to find out is not to fix blame or anything, but because I figured that's a learning experience too. And I have, I've had situations where it worked out whatever it was, but then I went back and asked, now, how come this happened? And when I and the other people involved figured it out, we all learned from it. But again, it's all about, as you said, not going in with guns blazing. It's not a fixing blame. Yeah, it's really all about understanding, and I think that's the most important thing. So this is all about the fact that you adopted a mindset and you decided that you're going to live that mindset, which makes a lot of sense. Mm, hmm,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 29:50 yeah, it to me. It's all mindset, because nothing is real until you create a story around it, which is why eyewitness, eyewitnesses are. Not reliable sources, because you could have the same situation happen, and people will see different thing Bay things based on the reality that they're looking for. And you know, I've even talking to my brother about childhood memories that are completely different, and I'm like, no so and so didn't say it. This person said it, and this is what happened, and in and he fully has a real, real, real memory of it happening in a completely different way. And so it's just really something happens, and we put a meaning and we put a story on it. And so whatever meaning and story you put on it determines the outcome. And so only thing we can control is the meaning and story that we put on it. So do we want to put a meaning and story that empowers us, or do we want to put a meaning and story that makes us not feel so good? And that's also the other thing that shifted in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 30:51 Yeah, it's all about now, ultimately, you're your own best teacher, and you can empower yourself. Yes. Yes, yes, absolutely. So I am not familiar with but would love to learn what is Ericksonian hypnosis.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 31:07 It's just a type of hypnosis, a different style of how you bring somebody down into the the hypnotic state screen, and then you, then you do programming while they're down in the hypnotic but, yeah, it's just a there's, there's multiple different types of hypnosis, and so that's just one of the types. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:31 I just never heard of of that particular one. I'm familiar with hypnosis and so on, but I wasn't familiar with Eric Sony, and didn't know whether there was something uniquely interesting about that.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 31:42 No, I think it's just the the style got it well,   Michael Hingson ** 31:47 you know, one of the things that we deal with people in general, in general, is we put a lot of our own limitations on ourselves, especially where we don't need to do that. How do we transcend or overcome limitations. One   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 32:02 of the way to do that is to recognize how powerful we are and how powerful our minds are. So a lot of people say that they can't trust, but they trust that they can't trust. They say that they're not confident, but they're confident that they're not confident, a that they don't create their own reality, and so that belief creates the reality that they don't create that reality, right? And so it's just about looking at the beliefs and saying, Do I want to hold on to this story? So a lot of people will come and say, This always happens to me, and I'll ask them, and does it always happen? And they say, No, it doesn't always happen, but this happened, this happened. This happened, this happened. And we'll say, okay, great. You're really good at validating that story. Do you want to keep validating that story, or do you want to start validating the times that it didn't happen? And it goes back to that red car theory, like, if you're driving on the road, how many red cars do you notice that day, versus if you were driving on the road looking for the red cars? How many red cars would you actually notice? And so what are you looking for? Because we're bombarded with billions of bits of information every single second, but we can only take like plus or minus seven every single second based on what we're looking for. So if we're looking for a red car, in reality, we're going to find that red car. If we're looking for a blue car, we're going to find that blue car. So what story are you telling yourself that's no longer serving you, and what story would you desire to tell yourself instead? And I'll give you an example for me, I used to have this belief that I could make a lot of money, but I couldn't hold on to it, because every time I would make the big amount of money, I'd get hit with a bill, or a pipe would burst, or something would happen. And so I kept telling that story, and I recognized that doesn't always happen. Big money's come in and it didn't go out immediately, but I didn't think about those times because I was validating the other story. So once I recognized that, I said, Okay, I'm not going to validate that other story anymore. I'm going to validate the times when I make big money and more money comes in, so that I can then have this belief that I'm building generational wealth. And that's when my finances changed and I started building generational wealth, right? It it's what we're looking for that we are then going to compound over and over and over again.   Michael Hingson ** 34:28 Yeah, again, it's back to mindset. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 34:32 it's always back to mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 34:36 That's fair. So you talked about, among other things, dealing with quantum physics and so on. Tell me about quantum leaps. So   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 34:43 quantum leaps to me a book. If you've never read this book, it's amazing. It's it's a really thin book called u squared, and the beginning of the book starts out with this fly that's beating its head against the window pane over and over and over again, trying to get out. So. When all it had to do was stop, fly back, look for the door, and fly out of the door. And so that's basically what I was doing. I was like beating my head, trying to force, trying to make these things work, pushing myself to do things that all the shoulds and the have tos, instead of taking a step back, listening to my own knowing my gut, my intuition, my truth, and then that truth being the door that's going to guide me to, you know, where I'm going. The other piece of that is I looked back on my last career, and I saw it from a whole other perspective. I thought it was from all of that pushing, forcing, all of those things, but in hindsight, when I look at it, it was the moments that I was in alignment, trusting my gut, following my intuition, doing the thing that then all of a sudden, out of the blue, this person dropped into my life, or this opportunity dropped into my life, which then quantum leads me into whole new reality. So the first time I ever wanted to teach bank like, corporate workshops, any type of corporate workshops. I knew that I wanted to teach corporate workshops, and so I started, you know, to develop a plan to figure out, like, what kind of corporations would I like to work with to help them to take everything to the next level, to help people to build success and fulfillment at the same time. And I started to think about it, and started to write a few things, and then all of a sudden, out of the blue, I met this CEO, and was starting to talk to him, and he said, Yeah, that would be awesome. Send me a proposal. So I wrote a proposal, and then they loved it, and I did my first corporate workshop. Now to me, that's a quantum leap. It was me being in alignment, knowing where I wanted to go, reprogramming my fears and my doubts. Because at first I'm like, why would a corporation take me seriously? Are they going to think that this stuff is too crazy, too out there? So I had to reprogram myself from those beliefs so that I could actually become the person that could teach the program. And once I reprogrammed all of that, then that person showed up. And because they showed up, I quantum leaped into that reality. Because otherwise I would have had to finish writing the proposal call all the corporate companies that I would want to work with, try and find the person that I wanted to speak with. You know, pitch my proposal to, who knows how many people to then hopefully get my first one. But for me, it was getting in alignment, reprogramming all the beliefs that I wasn't good enough for, then that person to drop in, and then all of a sudden, just start doing workshops. And that's basically how my career, my last career, and this career built. If you look back on your life, it's those moments that things happened, that dropped in, that ended up taking you into a different reality, like those chance encounters, or those chance things that would have happened, right? So it's how do we get in such alignment and reprogram the beliefs that are getting in the way so we could have more of those out of the blue opportunities dropping in faster.   Michael Hingson ** 38:01 It goes back to that same issue of looking for the red car. If you're looking for the red car, yes, you will see it. If you're looking to be able to do the corporate workshops, and you think about what you need to do to make it happen, recognizing that you're good enough, it will happen.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 38:20 Yes, exactly. But most of us never think that. Like, my whole life, I never thought I was good enough, you know. So it was always so much proving pleasing. You know, there's the imposter syndrome of somebody that wants to write a book, but then they're saying, Well, you know, who am I to write a book? But all the people that wrote a book never wrote a book until they wrote their first book, yeah, and so it's just just like letting go of the pressure and the expectation and just, I desire to write a book, so I'm going to write a book and I'm going to put it out in there in the world like everybody else did, every single author like you and your book, you wrote the book. That's the only difference from the people that wrote the book and didn't write the book is that you wrote the book, and you put your passion into it, and then it became, you know, such a massive life changing thing for you and so many people that read that book to hear your story well.   Michael Hingson ** 39:12 And now there are three, which is, which is fun, and you know what? Live like a guide dog. It it really goes along very well with the kinds of things you're talking about, because one of the things that we we advise and try to teach and live like a guide dog, is all about doing self analysis, looking at your your day, every day, at the end of the day, what, what worked, what didn't work, even the stuff that worked, what way might we have done to make it better? And the stuff that didn't work again, not a failure, but rather, what happened, and how do we learn from it so that won't happen again? And the reality is that at the end of the day, when we're falling asleep, we're. We have the time to do that if we really do introspection and and choose to do it. But again, it's a choice, and it's adopting the mindset that says we can do that, and it will help to increase, if you will, the mind muscle. And ultimately, the more of it we do, the less we'll fear about life. Mm,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 40:22 hmm, yes, yes. Because the fear comes from us thinking that we're not going to be able to get through it, that it's going to be so painful, that we're not going to be able to handle it, we're going to be so afraid of the disappointment. And so we don't take the leaps and we get and we just live in fear. But when we recognize our power through knowing that we get to harvest the learnings and that we're going to transmute it. We're going to get through it. We're going to turn it into our superpower. We're going to get stronger all the things we've done in the past, we've already we've gotten through so of course, we're going to get through the next thing. So when you know that you have that power to, like you said, go through the day and say what worked and what doesn't work, and how to make it better the next time, you don't have as much fear of the unknown, because you know you're going to get through it just like you did every other time. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 41:12 and you have to make the decision that it'll work,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:20 and then you have to make the decision to not beat yourself up,   Michael Hingson ** 41:22 because then you have the decision to not beat yourself up, right? Yeah, because pain   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:27 is inevitable, but suffering is something we create by the story we tell ourselves over and over and over again about the pain. And so if we know that, we're not going to beat ourselves up and create it to be suffering, we're not going to be as scared to take that next leap, because we know we'll get through the pain, and we're not going to turn it into suffering, right?   Michael Hingson ** 41:48 And we know that the pain is there to send us a signal, and we need to learn from that signal. Yes, so much. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:59 I love that.   Michael Hingson ** 42:02 So tell me, what is the difference between creating and achieving? Because I think that there, there really is a difference, and we're talking about both of those here in various ways.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 42:14 Yes. So creating is this playfulness. It's like this is what I desire to create. I know where I want to go. I know this goal that I want to do, and I'm going to create on this journey. I'm going to climb this mountain, and I'm going to take this step every day, and I'm going to enjoy the process of it and look at the flowers, and, you know, maybe hang by the lake for a day and then continue to go up there. But achieving is just achieving is proving pleasing. Achieving, right? It's like, I gotta get to the top of this mountain to prove that I've done this to achieve this thing. And so you rush through the journey. And that's where burnout comes from. So I don't think burnout comes from doing burnout comes from who you are when you're doing it, if you're doing the things, like when I'm doing the things out of creation, and because I love doing it, and because I desire to help people and support people, and bring this into reality, I'm having so much fun doing it, but if I'm doing it to achieve these results, if I'm doing it, because if I don't achieve these results, there's something wrong with me, or I'm a failure, or I'm not good enough, my business isn't good enough, And I'm being judged, and I care about other people's judgments, I will be burnt out, because I'm going to push and I, you know, there's so much emotion and exhaustion around the achieving, and then you're constantly just chasing that carrot, and the carrot always moves, because every time you achieve it, you want to climb the next mountain. And so you don't ever get that fulfillment, because then you're just going to go on to the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing is what I did in my last career. I just kept chasing. Kept saying, I'm going to reach this goal, and I reached that goal, and I'm like, Oh no, I don't have this one. There was, there was no fulfillment on the inside, and it was exhausting.   Michael Hingson ** 43:56 Well, you know, I hear often that people who really like what they do have discovered that it's not a job because they just enjoy doing it so much and and that's ultimately what you're really saying, is it's not a job, and I agree with that. It's we need to decide that we like what we do, and if we truly don't like it, then we should be doing it, or we should look at why we don't like it and deal with that, because it is worth doing. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 44:29 that is a great example, because when I was building this business, I did a lot of freelance work, and in the beginning I did I did the freelance work so I would have predictable money so that I could build this business the way that I desired to build it, so I wouldn't compromise myself. I wouldn't do it because I just need clients to pay the bills and all of these things. It was my passion project, and so I did the freelance work so I had predictable money to be able to pay my bills. And then this was pure creation of what i. Desired to bring to the world, and how I desired to help my clients. And at first, when I was doing these freelance jobs, I'd be so frustrated while I was there, because I'd be like, Oh, I'm here making this money. And I'm so frustrated because I could be working on my business right now, and I could be making the business grow, but I need this money, right? And my mindset turned it into, every time I did that work, you would just drain me. I'd be I'd leave so exhausted, and then I would go home and not have time to work on my other business because I didn't have energy. Until I recognized this is my choice. How lucky am I that I have this freelance job that I get to do that's bringing in this predictable money so that I get to build my dream business. How grateful I am for this freelance work, that I have this opportunity to work these amount of hours and get paid so well, so that I could build my dream business. So I showed up to those jobs in a different energy. I showed up with pure gratitude that I have that that I get to show up to this job and I'm and to do my best job, because they're giving me this opportunity to build this business. And when I did that, not only did I have more energy, that job started to become really easy, like so before, there was always fires to put out, and there was always drama and everything. But after, I shifted this mindset to gratitude. And I started to just say, How can I serve? How can I be here and be my best self, because I'm grateful for this job. Then all of a sudden I would come on shift, and everything would just work. And like, the dramas would go away, the fires would go away, things would be easy. And then some of the other people would say, I want to be on Jocelyn shift, because whenever she shows up, it's like easy, but that was from gratitude. That was from gratitude, from showing up, you know, wanting to serve. And it shifted my reality. And then I had all this energy, because I felt so good. And sometimes we'd finish early. A lot of times we'd finish early, or the job would be so easy that when I came home, I had energy to work on my business. And then that's how I shifted my business. So it's really the it's not what we do, it's who we are when we're doing it. What are we feeling on the inside that we're then projecting out, that people are then responding to   Michael Hingson ** 47:14 and and the reality is, some of the fires may have still been there, but they're not fires anymore,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 47:21 yes, yes, exactly, exactly, because I perceive them in a different way,   Michael Hingson ** 47:27 right? Exactly, which is the whole point?   47:30 Yes, yes, I love that. So   Michael Hingson ** 47:33 how do we get people to recognize when they're experiencing burnout, much less. How do we get them to change their mindset, to eliminate the burnout process?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 47:49 It just comes from their choice. It comes from their choice to to decide how they desire to see it. So, I mean, a lot of it, too comes from reprogramming. So, I mean, that's what I do in my programs, right? Is that if there are with burnout, we just discover where is it coming from? Like, is it coming from the pushing, the pleasing, achieving, the not being good enough, the worried what people are going to think, the failure, like all the stuff, the hoping that it's going to work out, afraid that it's not going to work out, because that's all the stuff that we leak our energy to. Once we discover what that is and we reprogram it so you don't have that you can just do it as a task. You show up and you do a task. One of my NLP teachers told me something that was so powerful, which was he said that the best, best basketball player in the world also has the highest amount of missed shots in the world, and that's why he's the best basketball player, because he just takes the shot. He doesn't beat himself up every single time he takes the shot. He's just taking a shot and a shot and a shot and a shot and a shot. He's playing to win. He's not playing not to lose. And so there's a difference in that energy. And so once you discover what that is, you get to then shift your mindset. So we it's very it's, it's quite easy to kind of find where the triggers are coming from. It's like, where are you getting pissed off? Where are you getting frustrated? Right? Like, those are the triggers. Then it's about, how do we then remove the triggers with whatever tool that you have, with mindset, with reprogramming, with hypnosis, with quantum physics, like whatever it's going to be, podcasts, listening to these things to come up with a new story, and then the resilience to create that new story to be your new story. So every time it doesn't go the way that you had planned, not getting caught up in saying, Oh, see it happened again, saying, okay, oh well, I'm not fully in that new programming yet, and so it's still showing up a little bit. But how do I harvest the learnings? And then how do I pivot? And then how do I do something different? And you just keep doing that until your reality eventually shifts. This   Michael Hingson ** 49:56 is so freaky. The other day, it was like yesterday, or. Monday or Sunday. I can't remember which day, but I was thinking about basketball players and some of the really famous, good basketball players, and thinking, why are they such horrible free throw shooters? And why are they in a in a sense, why is there a percentage what it is, and I came to the same conclusion that you talked about, but it's just kind of funny that the discussion in my brain was there and now, here it is again. But it's true. It's all about being willing to take the shot and   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 50:34 just taking the shot and not putting the meaning on it. It's when we put the meaning on it that it exhausts us. If you think about taking a shot, it's fine, but the minute you think about taking the shot, but hoping you're going to make it or not going to make it, because what are people going to think and what is that going to mean about you, and all that other stuff, all of a sudden it becomes a big ball of energy that you're leaking instead of I'm just taking the shot, because I know I'm going to get in, I'm going to get one in. So the more shots I take, you know, like Disney, he got rejected 33 times before the 34th time he got the loan. But if he just every single time, like, you know, gave up, we would not have what we have. But he just kept going in and doing it. And if you know that on the 34th time you're going to get accepted. How fast would you keep going back to banks and saying, Hey, until you get the loan right?   Michael Hingson ** 51:27 Well, and the issue with the shots, every time you take a shot and miss, if you're taking the shot, to continue to take the shot, as opposed to this one has to be the one to go in. You're also, I think, subconsciously, studying, well, why didn't that shot go in? What do I learn? Because this shot didn't go in, or the next one goes in, why did that one go in? What do I do to replicate that and become more effective?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 52:00 Yeah. How do I harvest the learnings and pivot and do it better next time? Yeah? And if you just focus on the solution versus the problem, you'll get there, right? Yeah, okay, well, and the more that you get it in, you know what that feels like. So you get to replicate that again next time, right? And the more that you don't, then you find, like Edison said, he found 1000 he didn't fail. He found 1000 different ways how not to   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 do something right.   52:30 Exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 52:33 You know it is, it is so true, and it's all about that's why I continue to say there's no such thing as failure. The other thing I used to say about myself because I like to listen to my speeches. I record them and listen to them, and I do it because I want to learn what what worked, what didn't work. How can I do this better? And I always used to say, I'm my own worst critic. But I always thought that was a negative sort of thing, and literally only within about the last 14 or 15 months have I started to say, in reality, I'm my own best teacher. It's a much more positive and open way of doing it, and it makes listening all that much more fun and exciting. By the way,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 53:14 I love that, and that's the creating versus achieving, right? Like, that's the different energy. Tweak that when you're doing it now you enjoy it versus before you were beating yourself up, right,   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 right? Very much. So yeah, and that's, of course, the issue. So you, you've you continue to celebrate the fact that you were a model, and now you've gone on to a different life, and you're continuing to create and enhance that life. How do you how do you deal with both of those lives? You You really have adopted this celebration right across the board? I think,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 53:57 yeah, I don't see it as different parts of, I mean, I just see them all as different, like, it's just a different   Michael Hingson ** 54:04 chapter. It's progressing, right? Yeah, and that's what I thought after   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 54:07 was each chapter was exactly what it was, and it was so amazing, and I and, and the next chapter gets to be more amazing, and the next chapter gets to be more amazing, and because it's an evolution over your entire lifetime. And so you just keep evolving. You know, there's a post out there about, I can't remember the ages, but like all these people that open businesses in their 40s, their 50s, their 60s, Walmart and, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and all these different companies that didn't actually like they didn't create it. They tried. They were creating things, but it didn't hit until later in the years. And most people think, Oh, we get to this age, we retire. We're done. But that's not true. We get to keep creating our entire life. We get to keep evolving our entire life. We get to keep climbing more mountains. I've climbed that mountain that was awesome. Now. Me climb this mountain, not because I have to, not because I need to prove myself, but because I get to, right. If you can shift your words from need, have, should to I get to that is the difference between creating and achieving. It's like I get to do this, like I get to show up. I used to when I was starting this new business. I used to not like social media at all, and I just wish that I could just have clients and coach and mentor, because that's all I love to do. I didn't like to, you know, do the marketing and do the social media and do all the rest of the stuff. I was just like, I wish I could just receive clients and coach and mentor, because that's what I love, and that's my passion. And then I realized I can't do that. I can go work for a corporate company, and I can do that, but I don't have time freedom to be with my child. I don't have I'm Max capped out about how much I can earn or create because I'm working for someone else, or I can go off on my own. And I get to get good at marketing. I get to get good at social media. I get to get good at all the other things, as well as getting good at getting better at coaching and mentoring, so that I can be my own boss, that so that I can be with my child and travel and take him and work from my computer around the world, so that I can do speaking engagements around the world, and that I can build this business as big as I desire, the way that I desire. So everything then became a get to so then when I showed up for social media, I was excited for it, versus like, Oh, this is so frustrating. I wish this wasn't part of my job. So you, once you shift the get oh, everything opens up, and then everything starts working as well, because your energy opens up and we get to learn, yes, exactly, we get to learn and now, now in a lot of different things, thanks to that,   Michael Hingson ** 56:51 there you are, right, exactly, which makes a whole lot of sense. Changing your belief really changes your life, changing your mindset and looking for that open way to allow you to deal with all the things that come along, can they get to, as opposed to have to way certainly just enhances your whole outlook.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 57:16 Yes, absolutely, yeah. And it can change overnight. If you can just look at everything in your life that you're grateful for, that you a younger version of you dreamed about, that you now have in your life, even your phone, your computer like you wanted that now you have it, but you take it for granted until you lose it, and then you don't appreciate it till you get it back. And you're like, Oh, I love it so much, right? Like, if we just shift from looking from everything that's wrong with our life to everything that's incredible, we get to be full of gratitude while we're creating our next level that frequency, gratitude is this most powerful frequency. It opens synchronicity. It helps you to become magnetized, so that people are then magnetized to you. If you think about going into a shop and there's like, this grumpy person who's complaining all the time, versus this, like charismatic, happy, loving life, loving life, salesperson, which one are you going to be attracted to working with, you're going to be attracted to working with the one that looks for the positive outcome, that doesn't see limitations, that sees ways to transcend them. You know, that's not complaining about all the things that are going wrong, but showing you what could go right instead. And so then your business opens up as well. Because you're magnetized, you start meeting people that want to come and talk to you, you know, like you could be in a restaurant, and you're just drawn to looking at someone that walks into the room and you don't know why, you don't know who they are, what they do, you just there something about their energy draws you to them, and it's that energy that becomes their calling card. And so when you are in this gratitude and this loving of life and not seeing limitations. You just see opportunities to grow. You become magnetized. People want to be around that. People are inspired by that. So now you start attracting opportunities into your life, instead of, you know, trying to force and push and chase them. And it goes back to the saying that I absolutely love, which is, instead of chasing butterflies, build your own garden, so the butterflies come to you. Yeah, so, and it's also like that other saying that the grass is always greener on the other side, until you start watering your own grass. Like those two sayings completely changed my life. Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 59:38 Well, you know, I, when I was growing up, I lived about 55 miles west of here in a town called Palmdale, and I now live in Victorville. But when I was growing up, I described Victorville as compared to Palmdale that only had like about 2700 people. I described Victorville as not even a speck on a race. Our scope compared to Palmdale. I never imagined myself once I moved away, moving back to Victorville or to this whole area, but my wife became ill with double pneumonia in 2014 she recovered from that. Family started saying, you really ought to move down closer to us, so we can help the things happen and all that well that none of that really occurred, but we decided, okay, maybe there's merit to it. And we were living in the Bay Area, which was very expensive in Northern California, so we made the decision to move down here. We started looking, and one of the things about my wife is she is in a wheelchair her whole life. So we wanted to build a house. Because if you build a house, it doesn't really cost to put accessibility into it, unless you have to put an elevator or something unusual in but if you build like a ranch house, ranch style home, everything that deals with accessibility, you just design into it. So you design lower counters. It doesn't cost to do that. You design wider doorways. It doesn't cost more to do that. You design level entrances and so on, and it doesn't cost more to do that. The only place we could find was in this town that I remembered as being not even a spec on a radar scope, compared to Palmdale. And when we came down here, Victorville now has, well, at that time when we moved down here in 2014, 115,000 people in it. Now it's bigger than that, but I, but I never really thought I would live here, but I am living here, and I have to say, you know, even though my wife has passed away, I feel really blessed. I get to live in a house that we built, that that is built with all the the latest codes we've got, solar and so many other things that I realize why this is a great place to be. And, you know, we can, I could have adopted a different mindset. And after she passed away, I could move out into New York second and I always thought to myself, Why would I do that? And don't, you know, I have an interest rate of 3.95% for the mortgage, which is, I would I wanted to refinance at some point in the past, but we didn't get to. But still, everything is so much better, but it's all about outlook.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:02:22 Yes, it is. And also, like losing a spouse is obviously one of the hardest things ever, and like being there with her in the home that you built, that you get to have all those memories together, is also still, you know a part of the house and part of you by being there with her, and so it's a beautiful, a beautiful experience to be able to do that   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:48 40 years of marriage. And I still have my guide dog, Alamo, who I got in 2018 but I have a rescue cat named stitch, who Karen and I rescued in 2015 so I have company and and Karen's up there monitoring somewhere. If I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I gotta be a good kid, you know,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:03:07 yeah, she is always with you, for sure. That's   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:10 the fear thing, you know. You gotta behave, otherwise she's going to come and get me. So, you   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:03:13 know, no, but she's also, she's also still supporting you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:17 Oh, she is, I know, because I just joke about the fear I'm I don't live in fear. I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. And can you believe that we have gone over an hour already   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:03:31 we have, oh, my goodness, I can talk to you forever, just hearing your stories and everything that you've you've grown through and transmuted as well. I just love it. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:43 this has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you and maybe use your talents, get to use your talents to make their lives better. How do they do that?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:03:52 Best way would be through Instagram. Because in Instagram, I put out, it's like the most up to date with what's going on tips that I'm sharing, like, reprogramming opportunities as well as I do, like, a lot of like, yeah, tips for the day, like something that would help you to reframe so that's always active. I'm always posting on that. Or you could go to my website where I have all the information, but I don't have all those tips on the website, because the Instagram is really like, if I grow through something, or if I'm supporting my client through there, and I think this is something that it will be beneficial to everybody. I'll do a post for it so you could listen to it, and you can help that to kind of shift your mindset as well, too.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:35 So how, how do people do that? What? What do they look my Instagram is   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:04:38 Jocelyn Luco Sandstrom,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:41 can you spell please?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:04:42 Yes, J, O, C, E, L, Y, n, l, u, K, o, s, a, n, d, S, T, R, O, M,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:50 so. Jocelyn Luco Sandstrom, yes, my name and your website. Jocelyn   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:04:57 sandstrom.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:58 okay, okay. Yeah. Well, cool. Well, this has absolutely been enjoyable. Do you go on LinkedIn at all?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:05:06 I do go on LinkedIn, yes, not as much as I do on Instagram, but I do go on LinkedIn. I still have my I think it's Jocelyn Luco Sandstrom as well. All of my socials are Jocelyn Luco Sandstrom,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:19 well, we'll put that in the show notes and anything else that you've sent us. So there are other things you think we ought to have in there. Don't hesitate to send them down. We'll make sure they get in. Thank   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:05:31 you. We'll do a free mastermind. So if you do reach out to me, you want to be on a wait list as well, then it's a way to just, you know, have a quick discovery of how we could shift the problem or the issue that you'd like to expand.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:47 Well, I hope people will do that. And I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I am so grateful that you're here. We get to have you here, and we get to talk about so many different things, like we're doing today. So I hope that you will write me, let me know what you think of today. And we love your thoughts. We also would really greatly appreciate it if you would give us a five star review wherever you're listening or monitoring the podcast. We value that very highly. But I do want to hear from you. Want to know your thoughts. You can reach me at Michael h [email protected] that's m, I C H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, that's m, I C H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, and for all of you, and Jocelyn, including you, if you know of anyone we ought to have on as a guest, please provide an introduction. We're always looking for more people. I love having people on because I get to learn that I keep saying, if I'm not learning at least as much as everybody else, I'm not doing my job. So I really get to have so much fun, learning and interacting with so many people and hearing so many not only good stories, but great pieces of wisdom like Jocelyn has given us today. So please keep us posted and and if you have no more guests, we'd love to hear from you, but Jocelyn, one more time, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely enjoyable, and we ought to do it again.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 1:07:23 Oh, thank you so much. It's such an honor. You are so amazing. Thank you so much.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:07:33 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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  1:09:31
• Episode 332 – Unstoppable Resilient Storyteller with Miki Nguyen

  In April of 1975, Communists succeeded in overwhelming their enemies to take over Vietnam. The last major city to fall was Saigon. That event is one of those historic times many remember who lived through it as well as those of us who only experienced it through Television and newspapers. Our guest today, Miki Nguyen, was six and a half years old when he and his family escaped from Saigon on a Chinook Helicopter piloted by his father.   Miki willingly tells us his story and that of his family who all escaped and came to America. Miki tells us of his growing up in a new land and how he eventually was given the opportunity to bring his father’s story to life. Miki’s dad wanted to write a book about what happened in 1975 as well as describing his life. He passed ten years ago and was unable to publish his book. Last year, Miki found his father’s writings and undertook to bring his father’s story to life. The book is entitled “The Last Flight Out”.   As Miki tells us the story of his family’s flight from Saigon he also provides pictorial representations of what happened. If you watch this episode on YouTube you will get to see those pictures.   Personally, I can relate to Miki’s story as in so many ways it parallels my own experiences on September 11, 2001. I hope you like and learn much from this week’s episode. Let me know your thoughts please.       About the Guest:   Miki Nguyen is a storyteller dedicated to preserving the legacy of his father, Lieutenant Colonel Ba Van Nguyen, a heroic figure whose daring escape from Saigon during the Fall of Vietnam in 1975 was immortalized in the 2015 Oscar-nominated documentary Last Days in Vietnam. As the son of a South Vietnamese Air Force officer, Miki’s life has been shaped by his family’s extraordinary journey from the chaos of war to rebuilding their lives in America. Today, he shares stories of courage, sacrifice, and resilience in his late father's memoir "The Last Flight Out" to commemorate 50 years since the Fall of Saigon. Born into a world of upheaval, Miki witnessed firsthand the harrowing final days of the Vietnam War as a child, fleeing Saigon with his family in a dramatic helicopter evacuation to the USS Kirk. His father’s bravery under fire and unwavering commitment to saving loved ones left an indelible mark on Miki, inspiring him to compile and share his father’s stories decades later. Through The Last Flight Out, Miki bridges the past and present, offering readers an intimate glimpse into the sacrifices of war, the challenges of resettlement, and the quiet strength of his mother, Nho Nguyen, who anchored the family through unimaginable adversity. As a speaker, Miki captivates audiences with a narrative that transcends history, weaving universal themes of resilience, cultural identity, and leadership into his talks. Whether addressing corporate teams, educational institutions, on Podcasts, or cultural organizations, he draws parallels between his family’s journey and modern-day challenges, emphasizing the power of hope and community in overcoming obstacles. His presentations, enriched with archival photos and personal anecdotes, resonate deeply with veterans, immigrants, and anyone seeking inspiration to navigate life’s uncertainties. Miki is committed to amplifying his father’s legacy and honoring the courageous individuals who shaped his family’s journey—from Captain Paul Jacobs and the USS Kirk crew, whose heroism ensured their evacuation during Saigon’s fall, to the Lutheran church members in Seattle who provided sanctuary and support as they rebuilt their lives in America. Through the memoir, speaking engagements, and other partnerships, Miki invites audiences to reflect on these unsung stories of courage and resilience while embracing a future defined by empathy and unity. Ways to connect Miki:   Email: [email protected] / [email protected] Website: https://nguyenvanba.com/miki/ Instagram: instagram.com/last.flight.out.nvb/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@mikinguyen44   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello everyone. Once again. Wherever you happen to be, I am your host, Mike Hingson, and you are listening to Unstoppable Mindset, mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and as we've defined unexpected here on the podcast, it's anything that has to do with anything other than inclusion and diversity. A few weeks ago, I got an email from a friend of mine and someone I work with at yesterday usa.net it's a radio station that plays old radio shows all day, and anyway, Walden Hughes, who we really need to get on this podcast as well. Told me about Miki when, because Miki expressed, or Walden has expressed an interest in having Miki on yesterday USA, and Miki had an interesting story, and has an interesting story to tell, and I thought that it would be fun to bring him on to unstoppable mindset, because his father and family were basically, if you will, as you will hear on the last flight out of Saigon in Vietnam when that war ended in 1975 so that's 50 years ago. Anyway, Miki generously agreed to come on. And so here we are. So Miki, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Really appreciate it and looking forward to having a chance to chat.   Miki Ngyuen ** 02:47 Yeah, thank you, Michael, just really honored and appreciate the opportunity to be on your platform and to share with you in your audience, my father and my family story. The this is a story that has been told around the dinner table for many, many years. And as we are here now in early 2025 this marks, this will mark at the end of April here, coming up the 50 year remembrance, as you noted, the the fall of Saigon and so yeah, again, just really happy to be here. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:27 let's start as I love to do, and I know it kind of is part of the story, but tell us a little about kind of the early Miki growing up and and things that you might want to talk about from childhood and so on.   Miki Ngyuen ** 03:38 Yeah, I we in at the end of April, 1975 I was six and a half years old, and so, to answer your question, I grew up on a military base, basically my dad towards the end there, Lieutenant Colonel was a pilot for the south of Vietnamese Air Force, and he flew various Chinooks. The the one that we're referencing here is the the Chinook helicopter, CH 47 and so this is young childhood for me, growing up on the barracks, the oldest of three, three kids, brother Mecca and baby sister Mina. And this was a childhood where very curious about things the world around me, on the barracks, there were a lot of heavy artillery. And one story, my mom would sure it's a kid dragging home a box of of ammunition, just to say, you know, Hey, Mom, look what I found laying around. So this was a. In early childhood, growing up during a a war torn country back in those days,   Michael Hingson ** 05:07 yeah, certainly couldn't have been easy to do. So, what schooling did you have while you were still in Vietnam?   Miki Ngyuen ** 05:14 Oh, this is six, six and a half, just kind regarding kindergarten. Yeah, pretty, pretty much. So the Vietnamese that I was able to learn, you know, was just talking with parents, mom and dad, early kindergarten schooling. But otherwise, my Vietnamese now as an adult is not as strong as I would like it to be, but you know the reality of coming to America at six and a half seven. Grew up post war all American high school, so yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:53 now were your parents from Vietnam originally? Yes, yes. Okay, so it it had to be tough for you, and it had to really be tough for them, and I'm sure that they were worried about you and your brother and sister a lot and and dealing with all the things that you all had to deal with, that had to really be a challenge. Did they as as you were growing up in America and so on. Did they talk about, or want to talk much about, what your what your life was like, your heritage and so on, from Vietnam?   Miki Ngyuen ** 06:31 No, absolutely. It was my my father, my mom's philosophy, to always continue to keep our culture and our heritage and the things that you know was good about our culture, the Vietnamese culture, and to continue it forward while living, trying to assimilate and live here in in the United States. So growing up, it was straddling of both cultures, both Western and the Vietnamese Eastern culture as well, during our upbringing. And so it continues to be strong today, where for my own kids, you know, we continue to celebrate and our Vietnamese heritage and culture. Although American Vietnamese, I hold a US passport. My blood still runs with a lot of the Vietnamese culture that was raised on. It's   Michael Hingson ** 07:32 an interesting paradox, or paradox is probably the wrong word to use, but you have an interesting dichotomy you have to deal with. You're from Vietnam, you embrace the Vietnamese culture, but you live in America, and unfortunately, in our society today, we have a government that has been pushing so much on anything that isn't really American, isn't really American. And how do you how do you deal with that? What do you think about that, that whole concept, and that, ultimately, there are those who would say, well, you're you're not American because you didn't come from here, and that's a frustrating thing. But I'd be curious to get your thought, well, it's   Miki Ngyuen ** 08:17 to say it's a it's the same conversation as you know, the Ellis Island story, right? The only, the only folks that I would say that can claim that they're here with Native Americans, everybody else migrated either east or west, from Europe or from Asia or from the Middle East or Africa to get here. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 08:36 Yeah, it is. And from, from my thoughts and perspective, it's, it's a joy that you, you have two cultures to be able to celebrate and and work with, which gives you a broader perspective on the world as a whole. I grew up in America. I didn't really do a great job of learning foreign languages, although I took High School German and I learned some Spanish, and I actually took a year of Japanese in college. But still, my whole grounding is is in America, but I do love to go to other countries and see and get to experience other cultures, even though I know I don't live there, but I, and I do come back here, but I, but I think that what you bring is a great perspective for people to understand a whole part of the world that's different than what they're used To, which is a good thing.   Miki Ngyuen ** 09:41 Well, that's why they, they call America the great melting pot, right? We bring, we want to, we want to bring our best. We, you know, there can be conversations around refugees and immigration stories here and there, but. I think for the most part, you know, diverse cultures, different folks coming from other parts of the you know, we contributed to America, whether it be through bringing, you know, food or arts or ideologies, and that's what makes America, you know, strong, is just people bringing their best here. And sure, there's going to be negatives here and there. But you know, if we're come from a place of goodness, a place of positivity and working with each other. I think the spirit of America and the spirit of the great melting pot here can can continue to flourish and be strong from that standpoint. And   Michael Hingson ** 10:52 I and I think it absolutely is exactly what you said. It's the melting pot, it's the spirit, and that's what we need to remember, because that is what has always made this country so great, and will continue to, no matter what some may say. And I'm glad that we we have the the depth of overall culture, which really is made up of so many other cultures. When you got to America, what was it like then going to school here and finishing your growing up period here?   Miki Ngyuen ** 11:30 It was a, I don't want to use the word struggle. My parents struggled more. But for myself coming to the US here it was quickly to assimilate, you know, that's the word that just simply out of survival, simply out of just making friends and keeping the friends that, you know, I had growing up in first grade and second grade and so on. And growing up in the mid 70s here looking different than the rest of the white kids, you know, in elementary school, I got called all sorts of racial names, and so I know on your, you know, with your your message of disability, and   Miki Ngyuen ** 12:25 functioning in, you know, I had my own struggles as well in terms of just being different, you know, then, then the next kid in elementary school. So, but we learned to adapt, we learned to maneuver, and we learned to communicate and develop social skills to blend in, and again, that word assimilate, just to survive. So   Michael Hingson ** 12:51 where did you Where did you all settle once you got to the US? Where did you go to school? Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 12:58 so we're located here on the outskirts of Seattle, suburbs of Seattle area, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:06 I remember when so many people were coming over and from Vietnam, and they had some refugee encampments for A while. I was contacted by a church group, because at a local area near where I was attending college at the University of California at Irvine, there was such a place, and there was a blind person there, and they wanted to get this person, that was a young man, to meet blind people. So I went out. We even brought him a transistor radio. He didn't speak great English, but we were able to communicate. And that was probably the closest I came to dealing with, in a sense, all the things that all of you dealt with. So I but I do understand we as a collective society, sometimes don't really deal with difference as well as we ought to we we don't recognize that the very fact that we have some things that are difference is what makes us stronger when we embrace the fact that everyone has their own set of gifts and challenge and challenges to deal with, right? Exactly,   Miki Ngyuen ** 14:22 yeah, exactly. The just to provide more context, yeah, the there was a church across the crest, Lutheran Church here in Bellevue, out about 30 minutes from Seattle, that sponsored our family and yeah, that's how that's how we we ended up here in the story of my father and my my family was no the only thing different, because during the. April, end of April timeframe in 1975 the communists finally took over, as many of your audience know, you know, Saigon and the rest of Vietnam, and we had to, we had to get the heck out of there, because if my dad would have gotten captured by the communists, he would have been set in jail for a long time. And so our, our or worse, yes, exactly or worse, our, our family story is no different than anybody else's refugee boat people story coming out of Vietnam. The only difference was what my dad did as a pilot, what he did to to rescue our family and his crew's family and the maneuver that he executed at sea with a large Chinook helicopter, so much that it was was honored 10 years ago to share the same story with in an Oscar nominated film last year in Vietnam, written and produced by Rory Kennedy, and so there are so many, there's so many other Vietnamese refugee stories, but this one was, was our particular family story, and it's the story of my father's bravery, courage, our family's resiliency, among other various leadership kinds of themes. So that's, that's the premise of things.   Michael Hingson ** 16:27 Yeah, I understand. Well, what, what did you say you went to college? Where'd you go   Miki Ngyuen ** 16:35 to? Studied engineering at the University of Washington here in the Seattle area,   Michael Hingson ** 16:42 didn't, didn't try to help the basketball team, huh? Just, just checking, no, it's   16:50 too short for basketball, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 16:52 Well, you know. And of course, in in the March, April, time frame of every year, we have March Madness, which is really crazy. I was disappointed to see Gonzaga get out of it so quickly. But oh well, of course, most people don't even know where Gonzaga is. I actually had the the lovely opportunity to speak there once, so it was kind of fun. So I've been there so anyway, well, so you went off and studied in engineering, and that's what you did after college.   Miki Ngyuen ** 17:23 No, I after college, I was an engineer for a couple years, and then pivoted over into the marketing side of things and focused in in technology. I mean, from your background, you also, you know, did sales, especially with your story 20 plus years ago, worked in technology sales, and your involvement with a tech company today accessible. So yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's my. My background is tech marketing,   Michael Hingson ** 17:55 well, and I started out doing tech stuff, helping to work in the development of the original reading machine for the blind that Ray Kurzweil developed, but that ended up going into sales for a variety of reasons. So I appreciate where you're coming from and and feel a lot for the kinds of experiences that you've had. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about what happened with your father, and the whole, the whole story of the escape, the last flight out, flying out with the Chinook and all that that happened. Oh   Miki Ngyuen ** 18:32 yes, so let's, let's get into let me go ahead and share the some pictures here. And I, as I told you, for you know, pictures worth 1000 words and but I'll narrate it in such a way that all audiences can can get into the the whole story. So this was, this was a moment again. This is a family story that was shared around the dinner table for many, many years post 1975 and I'm sharing the story through the lens of a six and a half year old boy experiencing what I saw and what I what I went through, and the picture that we're showing here on the First slide here is just images of my father, Bob van win, who, in the early, early 60s, got an opportunity after college to test and train to and finally got admitted into the the Air Force. And in the mid 60s, got an opportunity to come to Fort Rucker and study and fly helicopters, and came to America again in 69 to for additional training. And so my father grew up, family, grandmother, education was of utmost important. Importance, as well as family and community. And so towards the towards and the next slide I'm showing here is towards April 29 1975 we see iconic images in time, Life magazine, in the media here in the US, images of the Communists the North tanks rolling into Saigon and overtaking the city. And in the film, the documentary, again last season Vietnam, we see images. We see video clips of folks trying to get into the US Embassy to get access to a helicopter to get out of there, because folks, people that were serving working with American or the American personnel, anybody that was involved in the south fighting against communism would, have, you know, been in jail or put into, you know, a tough situation post war, if they gotten captured. And so we see a mass chaos, mass exodus trying to get out of of the city there. And so it was my my dad's knew that had he stayed and not figured things out, he would have been either killed or put in jail for a long time, and so he, at this point, waited out for orders from his commanding officers and his leadership at all of the top brass took off with their family trying to figure out how to get out themselves. And my dad, with the Chinook, went and picked up our family in at this moment in time of mom, myself, brother and sister, we were at my grandma's house. Uh, we've been there for about a couple weeks to get out of the the military base that we were on, and at Grandma's house. I remember the night before, my dad coming to get us a bombing and machine guns rattling around the neighborhood and around the city there. So it was pretty tense for our family at that time, my dad with the helicopter, Chinook helicopter in I'm sure you and your in the audience, you driving down the road or over, flying over your house, you hear a Chinook. Is very thunderous of and so it's a big equipment, big, big aircraft. And what he did was land at the Chinook in front of my grandma's house play a play field, and blew, you know, a lot of the roofs and commotion, and folks around the neighborhood were just surprised. You know of this helicopter landing in the middle of the middle, middle of sea.   Michael Hingson ** 23:22 Did you know that he was coming? Yes,   Miki Ngyuen ** 23:25 my dad had told my mom the days earlier that I'll be coming to get you. We'll figure this out, because at this moment in time, there's probably no way that we're going to survive the the Communists were coming and get ready. Get, you know, pack the bags, get get things ready and but we didn't know that he would come in in such a way. We figured maybe he would come in a vehicle, the military vehicle, to come in and get us. But he actually came with a with the with the Chinook, and landed right in front of the right in front of the house.   Michael Hingson ** 23:58 How many people was the Chinook hold. Well, at this time, in front   Miki Ngyuen ** 24:02 of my grandson, just our immediate family and but it would hold a lot of folks, a lot of folks. And towards the towards later on, we'll get to that point. But towards it we had like about 1715, 1617, people, crew member, their their girlfriends and family in in the in the helicopter. Yeah, that was what I was wondering,   Michael Hingson ** 24:28 because you said it was big. So I was just trying to get a perspective on what big really meant. And that's why I asked how many people it would hold. Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 24:36 yeah, understood, yeah. So the Chinook is probably, it is probably the largest helicopter in the, you know, the fleet of helicopters Arsenal so but he landed hatch opens up on the back, and the Chinook as a is a double, double, uh. Uh, a rotor, double prop helicopter. And family ran to the back of the the helicopter. They closed the hatch up, and my my father, accelerated, you know, the the engines and lifted up and out of, out of the area there. And the thinking was to rendezvous up with a few other of his squadron crew members and to head further south of the hot zone, Saigon, and to load up on the food and ration and gas so that we would continue further south and maybe perhaps lay low, find an island to just figure out what to do next, from that standpoint, and that's that's where We actually did was, along with our family, he had co pilot, and he had his gunner and the mechanic in their, you know, their their family members or girlfriends in the in the Chinook, once we loaded up On, on all of the, the food and everything fuel lifted up and out. And at the same time, he heard my father continued to monitor the the the radio communication. And he heard that there were US Navy, US ships out in the Pacific, now out east in the Pacific. And so he figured, we'll take a risk and head in in that direction, towards the the ocean there, and he didn't know exactly, you know, the exact GPS location, or the exact whereabouts of it, particularly, just headed out there blind and trying to find whatever option he could find. And out in the distant there, he sees a ship. And he goes, Well, this is my first chance. I'm going to go approach it and see if I'm able to land on it or figure out what to do next from there. And so heads in that direction. And we see, he sees a a uh, what we know now today is the frigate, and it wasn't, it was too small. It wasn't big enough to, you know, it wasn't like a an aircraft carrier, where you can actually land on it. And so the the next slide that I'm showing here, basically, as he approaches this, this ship, the crewman below, the US Navy crewman below was waving him like, you know, waving him away. Don't, don't, don't come here. You're simply you're too big. There's no way that you can land on on this ship. And so he kept circling the ship eventually found out the name of the ship was named the USS Kirk, and the captain was Captain Paul Jacobs. And my father continued to circle and figure out some way to, you know, ask for help. And we see in the one of the images here, that on the port side, the left side of the of the Chinook, my my mom holding up eight month old baby onto the the window part to let the crew in below know that, hey, we're not, you know, we're, we're we got kids, we got family on here. We need, we need help. And so eventually, what my dad was able to speak with the captain below, and both the captain and my father were able to coordinate the next step here, and which was to allow my father to hover right next to right behind the ship the stern to allow folks to to exit the helicopter. But prior to that, the slide that I'm showing here shows many other Vietnamese pilots and their families with smaller, smaller helicopters, the Huey helicopters landing, able to land on on the deck. And after they land, they would push the smaller helicopters over to into the ocean. And the continuing to do that as more families came on on, you know, was able to land. Uh, the next slide I'm showing here is the actual Captain Paul Jacobs throughout, throughout this whole narrative, my father is, is, is the person that my father's my hero. But there are other heroes throughout this whole story as well, and one of those I want to acknowledge is Captain Paul Jacobs, where we see in this image here, he was on the deck. He he wasn't in the command tower, directing, telling his, you know, crew, what to do. He was actually on the deck helping with his crew members, pushing and telling folks, as well as himself, jumping in and pushing smaller helicopters over the the side, making room for to clear, clear the the ship's deck. And so he's an outstanding individual, a hero in my book as well. And so once the deck was clear enough so that my dad was able to hover, what he did was basically fly the Chinook horizontal backwards to maintain the same steady high height, as well as a safe distance away from from the USS Kirk. And we found out later on that the this particular ship of frigate was a submarine destroyer. So it had all of the high tech equipment back, sonars, radars, all of the antenna and so it's very my father's had to be very careful in terms of how close he could have gotten, how close he could get to keeping the the distance as well as allowing folks to to jump down. And that's that's what we did. He kept it steady. And he was hovering about 1315, feet above the deck, and tells the co pilot to open up the starboard door and so that we would have access to jump. The picture that I'm showing you here is an illustration by Adam colts showing myself my mom, family members crews jumping from this Chinook down onto many of the crew members below, catching us as we as we exited. We also have an illustration from that I clipped out from the New York Times doing an illustration of my mom dropping a baby sister onto the crew, the crewmen below, and many years later, many years later on, at a reunion with the crew member and the captain of the USS Kirk, one of the men below, Kent Chipman, introduced himself to us as one of the sailors below catching us. It was like you described as, like catching a a basketball coming out of the the helicopter. And so once everybody exited out, he my father told the co pilot to make sure that everybody safely gotten out, make sure that everybody had cleared the the rear of the helicopter, and then he finally told the the co pilot to go ahead and and jump himself now onto the deck. And so I remember, it's the last thing I remember as a six and a half year old boy who was being ushered inside, inside the the ship. They didn't want any kids running around on the deck. Yeah. And the last thing that we see, you know, is seeing my father hovering away from the ship. Now is just him by himself at this point in this large helicopter.   Miki Ngyuen ** 34:04 So it wasn't, it wasn't until, it wasn't until maybe, like half hour later that we we see my father again. But from from, from the point where he had to hover. After everybody jumped off the helicopter. He hovered away from the the ship. And at this point there was, you know, the only option here was to get a remove himself from from the helicopter. He wasn't going to go back to land or go back to the city. His family was on the ship now, and he need to be with his family. And so what he did was take the Chinook about 100 yards away from the ship, and hovered above the water, and at that point, kept the helicopter steady, and while at the same time taking off his.   Miki Ngyuen ** 45:00 Did the heavy lifting 100% they in so many ways, in terms of when we talk about a challenge or an obstacle, they had my mom had to learn a completely new, different language, had to start all over again, not knowing exactly what their future was going to be, but at the same time, you know the freedom, the freedom in America and what America represented was just an opportunity that they knew that even though it was a struggle as a challenge to re readapt, to assimilate, learn a new language, find a new career, it was still a lot better than the other option, yeah. And then to answer your question, as for me, as a six, six and a half year old boy, or six, yeah, seven year old boy, you're right. It was, it was more of an adventure than it was anything in terms of fear, because, again, as I said, my mom and dad took the burden of all of that paved the way for myself, brother and sister, but throughout my life, up to that point, it was just an adventure to jump off from the helicopter was, to me, like jumping, you know, playing around a tree, jumping off a tree. But for my mom, who had to take the courage to drop a baby, her baby from from an airplane, and the fear of change, the anxiety of of in the struggle of war and everything else at a different at a different level that my hat's off to both my parents from that time.   Michael Hingson ** 46:57 I'm sure that, in a sense, while things were happening, your mom didn't analyze it. And think about the time of war, she did what she had to do, and your father did what they had to do. And then after the fact, they obviously thought back about it and and probably had times of going, Wow, what? What did we do? And not in a regretful way, but at the time something is happening, you do what you have to do, and then you think about it later. And I guess for you, when did all of this really become real and a story? Well, not a story worth telling, but when did it really emotionally all sink into you, what really happened? Because that had to happen, obviously, later than that night   Miki Ngyuen ** 47:48 it it became super, super real for me. 2009 window discovered, again from mister Jan Herman, finding my father's story and sharing with us the pictures from the US Navy. Yeah, because, because, up to that point, from 1975 up to 2009 this was a story that I grew up throughout my life and experienced a bit of it jumping, but the the things that my father shared in terms of doing the ditch maneuver and growing up as a boy, listening to him talk with his buddies around the dinner table. Or when they would have reunions, they would my, you know, I would be, you know, seen and not heard, type of a family situation, just, you know, listening into my father's conversation with his his buddies, hearing, hearing about it, and then finally, seeing pictures from the US Navy in 2009 that was when it really, really kicked in. Because as a kid growing up, I would share these stories. Friends would ask me, how'd you come you know, where are you from, and how did you get here? And I would share, you know, how we got to America and escape from escape from Vietnam. But it didn't really hit until 2009 once we actually saw the images that my dad was, he was, he did what he said, and we got pictures to prove it. So, yeah, yeah. And I want to touch upon the thing they mentioned a few minutes ago, in terms of my mom and dad and I know that you're, you're an Eagle Scout. I I never went that far in terms of Scott. I went to second class, so outstanding for you, going all the way as an ego scout. But the one thing that I learned from Scott is that word always be prepared. Always, always be prepared. I teach my kids that as well. And so in terms of my my mom and dad, they you can be prepared, you know, for the worst case scenario. And that's what actually happened in the end. The South Vietnam lost to commun to the communists, and at that. Point, and I'm going to weave in the story that you've shared as well in your on your platform, in terms of that day 911 where you had to, you had to do what you had to do with with your dog and and with everybody else trying to figure out how to get out of that, try to exit that building for safety and things like that. And so it was one of those things where you just had to, you can only prepare so much. And in the moment of crisis, or in that moment of of things crumbling literally around you, whether it be your country or a building crumbling around you, you have to figure out you have to, you know, cleverness, communication, working with others around you, teamwork, all of that had to come into play for survival. And so both, I mean, you know, both of our, my, your story, my my family, my father and my mother's story, myself as just a kid tagging along was, was that trying to figure out some way to exit yourself from a moment of dire, a moment of chaos, and so I can, I can under, I can resonate, I can, I can appreciate that   Michael Hingson ** 51:15 well. And the thing is that the thing you have to mostly prepare for is, is your mind, and prepare is your mind. It's and it's how you prepare to deal with things that may happen you you can't, as I tell people, there's no way to train someone to deal, as such, with a falling building, or, as you say, losing a country, but you can prepare your mind to be able to say, I can do this, and I don't need to allow the fear of what's going on to stop me. I can use that as a powerful tool to help that preparation is the most important thing we can do for anything that happens in our lives, and that's what we really have to focus on. Because I've been asked many times questions like, well, you know, how do you teach your dog how to escape from a tough, falling building or a tall building like you did in the World Trade Center? Yeah, that's not what you that's not what you teach the dog to deal with. You teach the dog to focus. You teach yourself to focus, and you teach both of you where you are, the leader, you teach yourself how to deal with whatever situation comes along and worry only about the things that you have control over, because the rest isn't going to going to help you to worry about because you don't have control over it.   Miki Ngyuen ** 52:48 Right, right, right. Yeah, go ahead. No, I just letting that sink in. I yeah, there's ever a time to be very present, very calm, very cool and collected. Because once, once you start, once you start, you know lack of a better term, freaking out or losing it mentally, things could fall apart even, even worse. And so staying calm under pressure is critical,   Michael Hingson ** 53:21 which doesn't mean that you're not afraid, but you use the fear in a different way than you would if you allowed yourself to, if you will freak out, which is really the whole point. Well, so you you clearly have written this book. Why did you write it? No, I expect to help. What do you expect to help? To get from it   Miki Ngyuen ** 53:42 Sure. I again, I did not write this book. It was my father. Why   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 did you? Why did you decide to bring it forward? Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 53:52 number one, to honor, to honor my father's wishes. Number one, it, and number two, along with that, is to pass down to his great grandkids, and you know, their their kids, his story, our family story of how we came to America. This was the for the Vietnamese community. This was our Ellis Island story. And number one, to archive and to honor my my my father. Number two, the third one really is, this is a story that it doesn't matter what background, what obstacle, what struggle you are in. These are stories of courage, compassion, heroism, stories of suspense, love stories that my dad wrote as well. And there's stories of lessons learned about communism, stories of betrayal. And so it's a story that is a. Uh, relatable to all audience types, but outside of that, for myself and my my mom and for my family, this is our family story, and one that my kids, my great grandkids, what how they knew my father in his courage, in his resiliency, in terms of just coming to a new world and having to start over again.   Michael Hingson ** 55:27 What do you want people to take away from the story   Miki Ngyuen ** 55:32 history? Number one, in terms of the history of because there's a you know, if you don't, if you don't learn from history, you're going to make the same sort of mistakes again. And so, from history, what can we learn out of it, the lessons that we can learn out of it, the lessons of just how to overcome obstacles, dealing with, as you said, with fear, courage, lessons around being curious about the things around you, learning Education and as well as the lasting years, just lessons around teamwork and working with others, working with your community. So those are the kinds of things that we want to get across in this book.   Michael Hingson ** 56:36 What kind of lessons do you think your your father's memoir and yours, because you compiled it. What lessons do you think we all should take away from that, that we should use today? What, what should we be learning from this story?   Miki Ngyuen ** 56:56 Uh, lessons in terms of, uh, leadership, lessons in terms of how to handle yourself in crisis situation, lessons around working with others to overcome a particular obstacle or a challenge working, you know, with teammates. Wait may it be in a corporate environment, or maybe in a community or a setting, or many of those themes that in terms of just everyday life lessons and resiliency, yeah, yeah, many of those themes and lessons that I think is told through my father's experience and our family's experience, from that standpoint,   Michael Hingson ** 58:08 a question that comes to mind, really off the wall, is so it's now been 50 years. What is Vietnam like today? Do you know a   Miki Ngyuen ** 58:16 lot better than it was 50 years ago? I I've visited, not only visited, but lived there in 2016 2017 and life today a lot more prosperous than than in years past. And he continues to to be prosperous. And, you know   Michael Hingson ** 58:43 better from that standpoint, is it a communist country? It's still,   Miki Ngyuen ** 58:47 it's still a communist country today, one of the things that I did learn from the book and my dad was sharing is that in this ties in with the the the the Berlin Wall in the unraveling of communism the Soviet government back then, When the leadership in Vietnam saw that they loosened up many of their their their policies around that. So it is still communism today, but prosperous in a lot of ways, economically, and, you know, trading with with other countries. So, yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's how life is today in Vietnam, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:49 what final words and suggestions do you want to make? We've been doing this now for almost an hour, and it's, it's been as compelling as I think you thought it would. Be, and I imagined it would be, what kind of final remarks or thoughts do you want to leave for people to think about   Miki Ngyuen ** 1:00:09 that, whatever situation, whatever obstacles that you're going through at this moment, that there's always there's always choices and options, and the the the things that we talked about, you and I, Michael here, is just staying cool, staying level headed, staying calm through through challenges, and looking, you know, looking to work with others, looking for help, searching for help, and where you can help others as well. If it wasn't for Captain Paul Jacobs, compassion and humanity, our family wouldn't be here telling the story. And so these are the things that have helped us and our family in return. Look back over your shoulder to see if somebody else behind you would need help as well and offer that. So that's yeah, that's the some of the things that I want to at least share.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:23 There's there's a lot to be said for paying it forward as well as gratitude, and I think that you've exhibited all of that very well. And Miki, I want to thank you again for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful and enthralling, and I hope that everyone has enjoyed it. And I appreciate you being able to be here and tell the story, because it has to be still a challenge, even 50 years later, because you lived through it, but but you've learned how to live through it. And I think that's the issue. It's like with the World Trade Center, you learn how to deal with with it, and we both have learned to tell our stories, and I think that's so important. So I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening today. This has been wonderful. I hope you agree. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, and also wherever you're listening or watching, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews very highly, and we we love the good ones. So please give us a five star review, and as Walden did and Miki for you and everyone listening and watching, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, and you think anyone else who has a story to tell, love to hear it, love to meet them, love to get them on the podcast. So we really appreciate you reaching out again. You can email me at Michael h [email protected] or go to our podcast web page, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael Hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, you can reach us through that page as well. Hope that you'll listen to more episodes and that you'll come back if you're listening to us for the first time, and whatever you do, be well and be grateful for all that we have. That's the way it ought to be, and we can all be unstoppable if we choose to. So again, thank you for being here and Miki, thank you again for being here and being with us. Yeah,   Miki Ngyuen ** 1:03:32 thank you again, Michael, for the opportunity to share the story with you from your audience.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:41 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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  1:05:39
• Episode 331 – Unstoppable Author and Liver of Life with Pat Backley

  Author and liver of life absolutely describes our guest this episode, Pat Backley. As Pat says, she was an English woman until the age of 59 when she decided to become a Kiwi and moved full time to New Zealand. Pat grew up in a poor household, but she will tell you that she never regrets not having as much money as many of the people around her. However it happened, Pat grew up with a various curious oriented mind and a desire to explore the world.   During her life which today spans 73 years, Pat has held a number of jobs. She also has been married twice, but clearly really is not bitter over being divorced from both husbands, although the 2nd one simply wasn’t ready to be as adventurous as Pat and live in New Zealand.   Pat wrote her first book at the age of 70. Over the past three years she has written eight books and has a number of future books inside her. As with other authors I have met over the years, Pat’s characters essentially write their stories. Pat has plans and ideas, but the characters take over and create the stories.   I find Pat to be extremely articulate and personable to converse with. I think you too will enjoy her and what she has to say. So, sit back, or walk or do whatever you are doing, but get ready to hear a most enjoyable and thought-provoking conversation.       About the Guest:   Pat Backley is an English woman who, at the age of 59 , decided to become a Kiwi and she now lives in Auckland, New Zealand. Passionate about people and travelling the world, she has spent the last 73 years living a colourful and interesting life and her books reflect these passions.   She published her first book DAISY in late 2020, just before her 70th birthday, and now says that she intends to write till she dies!   She has published eight books and contributed to several anthologies, as well as writing articles and short stories for various magazines and has several more books in the pipeline.   Ways to connect Pat:   www.patbackley.com I am on Facebook and Instagram @patbackleyauthor. Also on X (Twitter) @Pat Backley Books. And LinkedIn @Pat Backley   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   ichael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to another edition of unstoppable mindset. And today we are going to chat with Pat Backley. Pat is a British woman, as she will tell you, but at the age of 59 which has now been some what, 1314, years ago, 13 years ago, she decided to become a kiwi and moved to New Zealand. We'll have to find out what brought that about. I've been to New Zealand. It's a fun place. I'd love to go back. But anyway, and of late, certainly much later in her life, Pat decided to become an author. She wrote her first book at the age of 70, and that is another fascinating story, I am sure. So we will delve into all of that, and we're going to grill Pat until she's tired of us. Pat, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Pat Backley ** 02:20 Thank you so much, Michael, I can assure you, I won't be tired of being grilled by you. I'm I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:29 we're really glad that you're here. What time is it in New Zealand right now? It's 10 o'clock   02:33 in the morning. Yeah, it's about what I thought.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 So you're 21 hours ahead of us. Yeah, yes.   Pat Backley ** 02:42 And I have to say, I have to say that tomorrow is looking very good. You'll be glad to know, Oh, good.   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 Should be good. It Well, I'm glad to hear that it's going to look good, and it's actually going to warm up a little bit. Here. We're only getting up to about 65 Fahrenheit, so that's what about 17 Celsius or so. But tomorrow it's supposed to start getting a little bit warmer. We're approaching our winter as you approach your summer, which is kind of interesting.   Pat Backley ** 03:14 Yes, very interesting. When I first moved to New Zealand, that was one of the things I found very strange to have Christmas in the sunshine, because obviously I was, I was born with Christmas in the cook.   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 Yeah. Well, and you could have moved to Australia, where they use kangaroos to pull Santa slay.   Pat Backley ** 03:38 I could have done. I could have done. But Australia didn't have the same appeal for me as No, I   Michael Hingson ** 03:43 like New Zealand. I haven't been to Australia. I'd like to go, but I really enjoyed being in New Zealand. I've been to both the North and the South Island. I spent almost three weeks there, back in 2003 and gave something like 17 or 18 speaking opportunities in 15 days. And I only had one day that I had mostly off and that we spent. What is the the town on the South Island, the the tourist town, oh, Queenstown. Queenstown. Yeah, and so but that only lasted until about six that evening, and then I had to go off and speak again. But it was a lot of fun.   Pat Backley ** 04:28 You must have been exhausted because it's quite a lot of distance. I was I'm what I'm about to say is going to sound ridiculous now, because I've just been to America, and I know about your distances I was going to say, because you have a lot of driving distance between the towns you would have had to speak at. But then, as I was about to verbalize it, I thought, Pat, that's stupid. In America, the distances are far greater   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 well, and also a number of airplane flights between the North and the South Island to make it go faster as well.   Pat Backley ** 04:57 Yes, absolutely, yes. So. It was fun. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 why don't we start by you telling us a little bit kind of about the early Pat growing up and all that. We'll start with that. Okay,   Pat Backley ** 05:08 well, I, I was born in 1951 so it was just after the war, and England was still suffering from the effects of the war. You know, there was a lot of it was a bit of a gray place, so my parents couldn't afford to buy their own home, so I lived with my parent, my paternal grandparents, for the first three and a half years of my life. And of course, I had a lovely time because I had four adults doting on me. Then we moved out to the country. We were given a council house, which is like a state house. I'm not sure what they called in in the in America, you know, where the government provides them, right? Which, at that time was very acceptable, because there wasn't much housing, because it had all been bombed out, because we lived in London. So, so I grew up in the country. I didn't realize we were poor until I was 11, and went to secondary school, and suddenly I was the because I was quite bright, I was put in a grammar stream class, so I was suddenly with all these rich kids. One girl was driven to school in a chauffeur driven rolls, Royce and I lived in the little government house opposite the school, so everyone knew I was poor. So yeah, it was, it was tough. I would say it was tough my teenage years, but I   Michael Hingson ** 06:26 did, they teach you a lot about that. Oh, yeah,   Pat Backley ** 06:28 I got, I got, I mean, these days they would call it bullying, bullying. I just, I just, it was just, what my luck you know that I remember one time, and I actually did write about this in my memoirs, because it's still in my head after 60 odd years, one time I was the only kid in the class that went home for school lunches, and one because mum couldn't afford to pay for school lunches, so I used to go home because we lived just opposite. And I remember one day I came back to school and it was raining, so all the kids were back in the classroom early, and the teacher wasn't there yet. And there was this one girl whose name will live in my memory forever. She's etched on my soul, Angela Barrett. And she was standing at the front of the class, pretending to be the teacher, writing on the blackboard, and then wiping it off with this black cloth. And then she said, this is all this rag is fit for. And it was actually my school raincoat, which until then I'd been very proud of, but it was second hand, it'd be my cousins. And I can remember that afternoon thinking, I don't want to be here anymore. I hate it here. Everyone hates me. And I went home and I told mom, and I cried, and she said, Look, love, just because they've got more money than you doesn't make them any better people. And at 11, I could not see that at all like that. I just thought, why don't you just get more money? Why don't you buy me a nicer and go blah, blah, blah. But now in hindsight, I just think she that was the wisest thing she could say, because the time I rebelled, it made me realize that actually it's not an equal playing field in the world. You know, you're going to have people that are on this side and down at the bottom and up at the top, and you just have to grit your teeth and fight your way through it,   Michael Hingson ** 08:13 yeah, and, and the reality is, there are only so many things that you can truly control, and what you what you can control is how you dealt with that situation and situations like that. Yes, that's   Pat Backley ** 08:25 right. Um, and then I think I was a, I was definitely a product of the 60s. You know, we had all the lovely pop music and the short skirts and burning out bras and all that sort of stuff. But when I was just two weeks after my 20th birthday, I got married for the first time, which was ridiculous in hindsight, but at the time, you think you know everything when you're that age, don't you? My parents begged me not to marry him, but of course, I knew best, so that marriage lasted 14 years, and he wasn't always very kind. So then I left, then I was on my own for a beer. Then I had a living boyfriend, and I was desperate to have a child, Michael, but I'm not. I'm I'm old fashioned. I only would have a child if I had a husband. And so I didn't. I got married again when I was 41 and we had a child. I had a child when I was 43 my daughter, and that was that I thought life was going to be great. And then 26 years later, he decided he didn't love me anymore, didn't want to live in New Zealand anymore, and that was that so. So I kind of found myself living in New Zealand on my own, having we emigrated here together just before my 59th birthday. But anyway, I've picked up the pieces. It's been six years now, and because of COVID and because of him leaving me, that's how my life changed, really. And your daughter, my and my beloved daughter, my only child, yes, she's 30 now, and she is the love of my life. Yes, and I'm sorry. I've just realized I probably. Probably haven't answered your question very well. You must always pull me back, because I tend to get very excited and passionate and you know, don't necessarily toe the line with question answering. So forgive me, not   Michael Hingson ** 10:11 a problem. That's why this is a conversation and not a big deal. So is your daughter in New Zealand? She   Pat Backley ** 10:20 is now. When her dad she she was 16 when we came to New Zealand, so she did her last bit of school here, then she went to university in Auckland, and then she decided she wanted to do her master's degree back in London. So she went back to London, and then she got a job there, and she was away for five and a half years, which nearly broke my heart, but she's home now. She's been back four years, and she's got a lovely Kiwi boyfriend, and she's here to stay, so I'm   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 thrilled. What did she get? Her degree in art history. Ah, now, do you? Did you go to college? No, sadly,   Pat Backley ** 10:57 I because we were poor, I just had to leave school at 16, and so now I never went to college. I would have loved to, I would have liked to have been a teacher, but, you know, it wasn't to be and and I've had a great life, regardless of that.   Michael Hingson ** 11:13 So did you during all your married life and then the time in between and so on. What kind of work did you   Pat Backley ** 11:20 do? Well, I started work. I started work in the bank when I was 16. Barclays Bank was a really good place to work, so I spent 10 years working there. Then I lived for two years in the Fiji Islands and just did voluntary work back to the UK. My first husband and I started a furniture business, and then when I left him. Obviously I needed a job, because I didn't claim anything in the divorce. And so I got a job with bernardo's, the children's charity, as a general fundraiser. And that was great, because I just traveled all around the south of England supporting all the fundraising groups and things which I loved. And then I moved on to after a few years, I moved on to cancer research, um, again, as a fundraiser, but this time, setting up all their charity shops in the south, and that was a wonderful thing as well, because during the course of both those jobs, I met so many interesting people. You know, now that I'm an old gray haired lady, well, not actually Gray, because I color it, but now that I'm an old gray head lady. I feel very bad that the 35 year old me went to my new job with with Barnardos and sat there looking at these hundreds of gray head old ladies. And I thought, Oh, I'm too young to deal with all these old people. What on earth am I going to talk to them about? And of course, within a couple of days, I've realized that all these gray head old people were fabulous, that most of them had had really interesting, fascinating lives, and that I could learn an awful lot from them. So now the old gray head me looks back and feels very guilty at how I was at that age. But I guess that's what happens when you're young. You just think anyone over the age of 50 is is past it, don't you really well, but   Michael Hingson ** 13:03 you did learn a lot, I bet, from them, which is, oh, wow,   Pat Backley ** 13:07 oh, I learned so much, and I had so much fun, so much fun. Yeah, in fact, when I got married for the second time, a whole bunch of those ladies and a few of the men came to my, like, hen party the night before I got married, we went to the local, very smart hotel and had cocktails, and I just smiled to myself, thinking, oh, and I thought you were all so boring at the beginning, and actually, you're fabulous. So, yeah. So then, then my then I, then I stopped working, had my daughter, and I desperately didn't want to go back to my well paid job with cancer research. I wanted to be home with my baby because I was 43 I'd lost two children in the year before, with miscarriages, and so I stayed at home for four months, and then my husband said, oh, we need more money. You need to get a job. So I ended up doing having other people's children at my house, looking after them so doing like child minding. And that was when I look back. I don't know how I managed, because sometimes I had five under four year olds running around the house, which was quite a challenge. But we survived. I did that, I think, for seven years altogether, and oh, and in between that time, we came and lived in New Zealand for a year because my husband was a teacher, and he got a year's teaching exchange. So we basically swapped lives with a New Zealand teacher. He and his family moved into our house in England, and we moved into their house here in New Zealand. So for a whole year, we lived like a proper Kiwi family, which was wonderful. Lucy was only two, so it was the ideal time to do it. And I just, I just fell in love with New Zealand and desperately wanted to emigrate there. And then it took me 14 years to persuade him to get back here eventually. And in hindsight, I've probably pushed it too much, because. After he left, he said, I didn't like living in New Zealand. I didn't ever really settle there. So I have to hold up my hand and say, probably I persuaded him to do something that he really didn't want to do. But anyway, it's easy to be wise in hindsight, isn't it, as always, yeah. And then so we went back after our year here, we went back to the UK and we set up a business training and assessing construction workers, because the government realized, the UK government realized that, because they'd stopped formal apprenticeships some 20 odd years earlier, that there were now hundreds of 1000s of men working on construction sites who had all the necessary skills, but no paper qualifications. And so they wanted to redress that, but they realized that these men would not be willing to go back to college for three years to learn, learn their trade that they could already do. So they started this fast track program, and we used to go onto sites. We obviously, I had to get lots of qualifications and things to do it, trainers and assessors, qualifications. But then we used to go on two sites and watch the men working ask them loads of questions. We obviously had trade specific instructor assessors, and they could get that qualification that they would have taken three years to get going to college, they could then get in in a matter of six months or so, just by being observed doing their job. So it was a really, really good system, and it was very rewarding for me personally, because I used to go onto the sites and do the initial talks and whatever. And I've always liked men. I've always enjoyed their company, so I could cope with all the banter, you know, all the right, darling, what you're going to do after work, that kind of thing. I enjoyed all that. The bit I hated was wearing a hard hat, because they're very unflattering and they squash your hair do. But the most rewarding thing for me, we did that, that business for 20 years. The most rewarding thing was when a guy who I'd met on site who didn't even want to do it because he felt inadequate, which I later discovered was because he couldn't read or write, but he'd hidden it from all his colleagues. The most satisfying thing was once he'd passed, which obviously he sailed through. I sent him his certificate in the post, and the next day he phoned me, and he said, Pat. Thank you so much for that certificate. He said, it's the only thing I've ever had in my whole life that says I'm good at anything. He said, My wife is framing it and putting it on the living room wall. And that just made me cry, because I thought, this is, this is a man who's 45 who's gone through his whole life thinking he's stupid, and suddenly, just that one action can give him something to be proud of. So that was, I loved doing that, and we made that's how we made our money. For a few years, it was incredibly successful, and then it tailed off, and that's when we immigrated to New Zealand, and since I've been here, I've just basically been having a lovely time, doing a bit of voluntary work, lots of socializing and becoming an author. So   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 what, what attracted you to New Zealand? Why did you fall in love so much with New Zealand? Do you think   Pat Backley ** 18:19 it's a it's a hard question to answer. Michael, it was something deep inside me after I'd been here for a year, or when I'd been here probably only for a few weeks, I got this real feeling deep inside, inside me that I needed to be here. I just think sometimes places in the world draw you in for whatever reason. Who knows? You don't know if it's because perhaps you've got some association with it through an ancestor or I don't know, but I felt very, very drawn to New Zealand, and once we went back to the UK, we were back there for 14 years. Whenever I spoke to friends from New Zealand, whenever they'd phone me, I would end up in tears for hours. I want to go back to New Zealand. So it was a need rather than a desire, almost. And it's not something I've ever regretted. Even after he even after he abandoned me, we were back in England when he announced he didn't want to be married anymore, and he never came back to New Zealand. I just had to come back alone. Even then my friends in England were saying to me, oh, Pat, just stay in England. You know, we're all here. We'll, you know, we'll all be here for you. And I said, No, no, home is just New Zealand, even though I knew I was coming back all alone because Lucy was still living in London, I had, I've got no family here, so, but there was something that pulled me back.   Michael Hingson ** 19:45 I understand that I really enjoyed New Zealand a lot. And if there's when people ask me a place in the world that I regard as my favorite place to visit, New Zealand always comes out first, but I enjoy. Way wherever I go. I actually took my first trip to London in late October of this year. I was only there for a couple of days, but it was to do a speech. And, you know, it was pretty similar to being here. It just wasn't the same feeling as as being in New Zealand, which I had the opportunity to do, as I said before, for a little over three weeks. So it was really a lot of fun and and the the environment is just so different.   Pat Backley ** 20:28 Yes, I think New Zealand, I think one of the, I mean, obviously it's an incredibly beautiful country, but I think one of the main differences is that we, we've got a land mass pretty similar to the UK, but we we've only got like 5 million people, and the UK has got more than 70 million. And I think that's the thing. You know, the more people you try to cram into a small space, the more the social problems are, are enlarged, don't they? You know, we have exactly the same social problems here that are anywhere else in the world, but because our population is relatively small, it's not such a such such a huge feature of life, I think, yeah. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 21:10 well, I haven't explained to everyone listening that Pat and I met through the RV Book Festival, virtual book festival, which both of us being authors, we spoke at and participated in, gosh, a little over a month ago now. Mm,   Pat Backley ** 21:28 yes, time flies, doesn't it does. It does.   Michael Hingson ** 21:32 And one of the things that I said, as I usually do when I get a chance to meet with people, is we'd love to have you all come on the podcast. And Pat is the second of the three people who were there. And so I'm glad that that that we got to do this. But let's talk about you being an author. So you started being an author. What, just three years ago or four years ago? Yes, yes. What? Yeah. Go ahead. Oh,   22:01 no, sorry, you carry on. Well, so   Michael Hingson ** 22:03 what just caused you to decide that you're going to try to write a book?   Pat Backley ** 22:09 Okay? Well, when I was a little girl, I had a massive list of things I wanted to be when I was growing up, I wanted to be a nurse, a missionary, a writer, a teacher, a ballerina. They were all my that was my list. So when I was about eight, I edited my first magazine. Is I have one limited copy of it. It was a limited, very limited edition. It only lasted one, one time. But so I guess probably I've always had that desire deep inside me, but because of circumstances, and not coming from, you know, a very privileged background, it meant that I didn't have the opportunity. But in the days when we used to write letters, I always love to write long, long letters to all my friends, my family. And when I lived in Fiji for two years, I wrote, there was no other way of communicating with my parents. They had no telephone. So for two years, I wrote them letters and when my when, when they died, and I had to clear out their house, I found this enormous pile of blue Air Mail, letters that I'd written to my parents over a two year period. They'd kept every single one. So I think I'd always loved writing, but it never occurred to me that I would ever have the chance to write a book. And then we get to COVID, and we, here in New Zealand, went into lockdown on the day of my 69th birthday. It was a beautifully sunny day, and I was all alone because Lucy was in England, and I made myself chocolate brownies, stuck a candle in it, sat in the garden and cried because my marriage was over. My daughter was gone. We had COVID. There were, you know, there were lots of things to cry about. And I then spent the next three weeks lying on my sofa watching rubbish on Netflix, eating too much chocolate, drinking too much red wine. And then I thought to myself, Pat, this is ridiculous. This could go on for a few more weeks, because at the time, we thought COVID was going to be quite short lived, didn't we, and I thought, why don't you do something practical? Why don't you write a book? So I just got out some paper and pen and started writing, and stayed up, probably mostly day and night, for two weeks, and then within two weeks, my first book, Daisy was done, and that was that really the rest is history. Since then I have so I published it self. Published it just before my 70th birthday, and in the three years since then, I've written and published eight more. Contributed to five anthologies, written a little Yes, so yeah, written articles for magazines and been interviewed by lovely people like you, and the rest is history. Are you alright? Have I sent you to sleep? Talking?   Michael Hingson ** 24:58 No, I. Well, I'm just listening. I didn't know whether you were done. You know, it's, it's fascinating to to listen to the story and to hear you talk about what, what brought you to it, what made you decide what kind of books to write. I   Pat Backley ** 25:18 don't think I really did decide, um, my daughter for my birth, for the previous Christmas, had sent me a very dry little textbook, which she knew I love, called, I can't think exactly what it's called, something like the history of architecture, of council houses in the UK, something very boring like that. And it was, it was basically a textbook, because I love architecture as well. It was basically a textbook with just a few pictures in so I'd kind of put it on my coffee table, but not but ignored it. You know how you do when there's books? You know, you should, you kind of don't get around to it. So at the beginning of COVID, I picked it up one day, or a couple of days before I started writing, I picked it up, and within five minutes, I was enthralled. I got out post it notes. I'd stuck those all over little bits and written quotes, and I think that was kind of an inspiration. So I expected the book to be more about, have more of a theme of architecture. And in fact, the book doesn't. There is one guy who becomes an architect in it towards the end. But I think that kind of just just pushed something in my head into gear, because I firmly believe Michael. I mean, they always say that everyone has a book inside them, and I, when I do my talks now, I'm often photographed at a very funny stage where I'm going like this, because I'm just saying how somebody's it feels as though somebody's taken off the top of my head, and 70 years worth of words are just flying out. Because I find writing incredibly easy. The first book Daisy wrote itself pretty much, you know, I just kind of had an idea and and I wrote down a few things about possible people, and then they just wrote their own story, really, which I'm, you know, I know, as an author, you will understand that. And I would say, for all my other books, I've had an idea, but they've kind of, they've kind of written themselves, themselves   Michael Hingson ** 27:17 as well. Yeah. Well, you know, you talk about textbooks. I've been an advocate for some time about the concept that people should rewrite textbooks or make textbooks different than they are, and technical manuals, the same way, as you said, they're very boring and and they don't need to be in textbooks could draw people in a lot more than they than they do. For example, my master's degree is in physics, and when you're looking at a physics textbook, there are lots of mathematical equations and so on, and that's fine, but think of how much more interesting the book might be, and think of how much more you might draw the interest of people to the science by including in the book some stories about the the author. Their their, I don't want to necessarily say adventures, but their experience is why they became a physicist, why they do what they do, and bringing some humanity to the textbook, I think would make a significant difference to textbooks in general, but we don't see that, because people just want to get the facts out there.   Pat Backley ** 28:32 I couldn't agree more. I absolutely, totally agree. When I was at school, I hated doing research because it was boring. You had to learn the names of all the kings of England, and King, you know, Henry, the eighth wives, and when their heads got chopped off and all that stuff. And apart from the really scandalous bits, I wasn't really interested. But now I absolutely adore research. I discovered that my first book, Daisy is is a historical fiction, and so I had to do lots of research to make sure it was accurate, because you you know, if you write something in a book and it's not right, people are going to pick holes in it. I mean, they're going to pick holes in your work anyway, so you don't want to give them extra ammunition, right? But I discovered that I absolutely loved doing research. And of course, these days it's so easy because you just click a button on your computer and you can find out what cold scuttles were used in 1871 whereas in my youth, we had to trudge to the library get out all the encyclopedias. And so because of I've discovered that love of research, all my all my novels, are now historical because it's almost it gives me an excuse to go researching and finding out stuff. So it's opened up a whole new world to me, Michael and I just realized now that that expression education is wasted on the young is so true, because now in my seven. Is I am so open to learning new things, whereas in my teens, I was bored to death and just wanted to go home and play.   Michael Hingson ** 30:09 So what was Daisy about? Oh, well,   Pat Backley ** 30:11 Daisy, I'll just, I'll just read you a little bit on the back to give you an idea. Um, Daisy is a gentle family saga spanning almost 100 years, from 1887 to 1974 It is set in Alabama, Harlem and London, and incorporate some of the evils of society, poverty, racism and snobbery, as well as some of the greatest that life has to offer, family, friendship and love and a couple of quotes, being born poor was a scar that never faded, and she had never experienced racial hatred first hand, so had no real idea of how it could erode a person's whole life. So basically, it's just a story of a young woman born in the slums of London and a young man born into an affluent lifestyle on an Alabama plantation in 1871 and how their lives interwove, they never got together, but, you know, or all their extended people did, so it's right, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:14 right. Well, the thing about about that kind of a story is, again, it draws you in. I I would would say something slightly different. Being poor is a scar that that never fades. On the other hand, being poor also gave you, or would give Daisy the life that she had, which was, was so I would suspect so very invaluable to her overall life experiences.   Pat Backley ** 31:50 Yes, absolutely yes. And her life changes quite dramatically midway because of the people she meets. Yeah, it's I, it was in, it's interesting, because sometimes I reread it and I just think, Wow, this is quite a good story. And I then I feel bad for thinking that about my own writing, but I've written the second Daisy, which is obviously the follow up. And then I thought, actually I and then I wrote a little travel book and my life story and whatever. And then I thought, Oh, I really miss doing research. Perhaps I could write about my own family, my own ancestors. So I then wrote the ancestors series. I've done three in it, and wrote about my paternal grandparents, my maternal grandparents and my own parents. I've just published that book about them that was glorious, but very emotive, because obviously I knew certain bits about them. But delving back further and further into the family histories, you discover lots of things and very emotional to write, yeah, particularly one about my parents, because your parents are just your mom and dad, aren't they? You kind of don't think of them really, as people in their own right, but when you start writing their life story, you're living life through their shoes and and it, yeah, it made me very emotional. I cried every day writing my parents story, but now I'm really glad I did it, because it's kind of honored, honored their lives, and also it means they'll never die their even their photographs are on the cover. And my daughter said that she cried all the way reading it, and she said, Mom, it was wonderful, because I hardly knew them. You know, they died when she was quite young. Yeah, she's but now I understand, yeah, so because she's had, you know, she's had a reasonably nice upbringing. She hasn't had the upbringing that they had, or even I had. So, yeah, I think I try. I've become a bit I've become a bit of a pain now, because everyone I meet, I say, like last week, I did a talk at the local genealogy society, and I said to them, please write your story down or record it some way. Because once you die, your story dies with you, no one knows your life as well as you do. So, yeah, yeah. But I just love research. So now I'm thinking, oh, what else can I write about and do some research? I write about people. Michael, people are my passion. I love people and and ordinary people. I don't need to write about, you know, worthy things people, right?   Michael Hingson ** 34:24 But the other part about it is that you got, as you write about your parents, I'll bet you got to know them better, too, and it helps you understand the kind of life you had and they had. And I still bet overall, you could talk about wealth and all that, but you wouldn't trade your life for anything because it made you who you are today. Abs,   Pat Backley ** 34:49 you're absolutely right, and yes, you're right. Writing about their stories and all that they went through, it was Yeah. Just made me really, really realize that they were even. Special people than I knew they were. But no, I wouldn't trade anything. I mean, I had a wonderfully happy childhood, if you put aside that silly bit of bully in that, you know, I tend to know for the years. But, yeah, we I, I because I didn't know, really, that I got snippets of there being other kind of lives like, you know, I had rich friends who had lots of clothes, traveling all the time and stuff, but basically, my life was just my little nuclear family. In our little we had a little two bedroom house for six of us, and that was my life. We were very happy. There were very rarely raised voices, and that's why I didn't cope very well in my first marriage, when my husband, my first husband, suddenly showed me that he had a rather violent temper because I didn't know how to handle it, because I had never experienced that before in my whole life. So I in that way, I wasn't prepared. But yeah, I will always be grateful to my parents, because with very little, they gave us all a very happy childhood.   Michael Hingson ** 36:05 Well, so you started writing at the age of 70. Do you wish that you had started writing earlier? Or did you think about that? I   Pat Backley ** 36:17 think about it. I don't really, because I think I had to live through everything I've lived through get to the point now of being able to write in the way I do. And also, yeah, no, I don't really. I mean, the only thing I think is, oh, I hope I don't die before I before I get everything written, I want to write. That's my only thing. But no, I I've learned, Michael, not to regret anything in life, because if you do, the only person it hurts is yourself. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:47 because you are who you are, because of your life   Pat Backley ** 36:51 exactly, and you would understand that better than most. I mean, you cope so well with with being blind, which is absolutely remarkable, because most of us, if we suddenly can't see and need to wear a stronger pair of glasses, we just go down, you know, go down into a depressive state. So you're a wonderful beacon of hope. I think for an awful lot of people, of course,   Michael Hingson ** 37:15 the issue, and using that as an example, the issue is that you don't know anything about being blind or blindness, and people generally don't, and they make a lot of assumptions that are not necessarily true, but it is again, the lives that they live, and the reality is there's nothing wrong with being blind. We live in a world where most people are light dependent, that is, they can see. But the reality is, of course, in the perspective I try to oftentimes nowadays, to convey to people, is light dependence is just as much a disability as being light independent or blind, because as soon as the lights go out, you lose power, and if you don't have an immediate light source. You're in a world of hurt. And we really should think of disability as a characteristic that everyone has, except it manifests itself differently for different people. But unfortunately, people aren't ready to do that. And the reasons for bringing up the concept in that way is that I think that because disability is really a characteristic everyone has, it is also a way to help level the playing field. And that's something that is so hard to get people to do, because they really think, well, you're blind, you're not as good as I   Pat Backley ** 38:37 Oh, wow. Very profound. I love talking to you. Michael, this is fascinating stuff. Fascinating. I had, I had a little niece. Sadly, she died when she was 14. She had a dreadful genetic disease called battens, but she went blind for the last couple of years. It broke my heart. It broke my heart, but she seemed to just deal with it somehow. You know, it's, I guess we all get the strengths we need at the times we need them. Do you think   Michael Hingson ** 39:04 I think, I think that's true, or we can if, long as we accept it. But the reality is that, of course, she lost her her eyesight, but if she developed an attitude that I have other things that are available to me, so I'm going to be fine, then she would be fine. Yes,   Pat Backley ** 39:23 yeah, yeah. I mean, sadly, she lost all her faculties. She couldn't talk. She so everything went but, but it was when her eyes went and she was still able to understand, that was the hardest thing. So I remember years ago when I worked in Barclays Bank, when I was quite in my 20s, and we were, I worked in a big branch at the time, and we had a blind telephonist, because in those days, back in the 60s, I think it was kind of what they did. It was when there were all those great big telephonic boards, you know, press all the buttons. And we had a guy called Peter, and he had. His dog was called penny, and our branch was on the corner of this huge, wide road in a place called Kingston, just outside London. And to cross the road, there were like six lanes of traffic, and it was really, really dangerous. And we would come out of work in the afternoon, and we'd all be standing there hesitant to cross the road, and Peter would suddenly just march across the road with Penny, and we'd all be standing there in awe. And one day I crossed with I've got brave, and I crossed over with him, and we got to the other side, and I said, Peter, how can you do that? He said, Oh, well. He said, It's always useful being blind, because traffic feels sorry for you, so they all kind of slow down anyway. He said, But, but. He said, But Penny leads me. He said, she just, she just, she just knows it's fine, so she just the dog just, just takes me over. I was fascinated, but he had just recently married about two years earlier he'd been, he'd been fully sighted till he was 11, and then he and some friends were messing about on the railway lines, and he fell over and bashed his head, and he went blind. So he had been sighted and but now he he was married, he had a little baby, and I said, Oh, Peter, can you actually see your baby, or do you just kind of have to feel the outline? He said, Oh no. He said, I got a tiny, tiny bit of vision. He said, so I can see the shape of the baby. And I just always remember thinking you're so brave. That was, that was what I thought. I just felt he was so brave. Well, just remember   Michael Hingson ** 41:27 the dictionary, you know? Well, just remember the dictionary defines to see is to perceive. It doesn't necessarily need to be with the eyes and and there's so many other senses that give us this a lot of information as well. For me, I don't want my dog to decide when we cross the street in general, unless the dog refuses to go because there's a hybrid car or something coming that I don't hear. But it's my job to know when to go and and I know how to do that, and so I can listen for the traffic flow and and, and go accordingly. And at the same time, if I then tell the dog to go forward and the dog won't go my immediate assumption is there's a reason for that, and and, and usually there is because the dog and I have developed that kind of a relationship where the dog knows it's my job to tell the dog where to go, and it's the dog's job to make sure that we get there safely. It's a very close knit team. It's as close knit of a team as you can imagine, and it's what it's really all about. So the dog and I each do our jobs, and when we do them correctly together, what a wonderful world. It becomes   Pat Backley ** 42:47 fabulous. And it obviously works because you're still standing, you're still here,   Michael Hingson ** 42:54 and my and my dog is over here, breathing very deeply, asleep. Oh, so you you stick with historical fiction. Have you ever thought of writing other kinds of books, like adventures or novels or that are not historic in nature, fantasy or any of those? I   Pat Backley ** 43:17 don't think I've got the right brain set to do fantasy or horror or crime. I, I I'm writing historical because I've discovered a great love for it, but I've also, I also have a great love for travel. So I wrote a little travel book, and I've just done a big trip, so I'm going to write another travel book, because that's another great love I wrote. I wrote my memoirs, which was very satisfying, you know, to write my own story down so it's there forever, if you like. And I also wrote a little book called The abandoned wives handbook, which I didn't want to write. I just kept putting it off. And then one day, I woke up at three in the morning and this voice saying to me, Pat, you have to write this book to help other people. So I just wrote this. I cried all the time. Writing it, as you've probably deduced, I'm a great crier. I think crying is is the best way of getting stress out of your system, out of my system. So I wrote this book. It's just a tiny little book that you can pop into a handbag called the abandoned wives handbook. And I've just made it like a little dictionary. I call it a dictionary of distress, and it's just to I'll just just briefly read you the backseat and understand the pain of abandonment is huge. The partner you loved and cherished for so many years has decided you are no longer required past your sell by date of no use to them anymore, so tossed out like a piece of garbage, abandoned with barely a backward glance, in an attempt to keep this a gentle, light hearted read, each chapter is divided into letters of the alphabet, rather like a dictionary of distress, something you can dip into at any time. I am not an expert, merely someone who has survived one of life's great traumas and has come through. Is a stronger, more resilient person, so I didn't want to write it. I hated doing it. I've, I published it, and it's, ironically, one of my best selling books people buy   Michael Hingson ** 45:13 all the time. Do you publish your own books, or do you have a publisher? I   Pat Backley ** 45:17 have, I have done till this point, Michael, but simply because I'm feeling I'm too old to hang around waiting to get noticed. But I have just written, I have just finished another book, which I I just feel might be slightly more commercial, so I may try seeing if I can get an agent for that. But I will probably only try one or two, and then if they say no, I'll just give up and self publish. The only thing against self publishing for me now is that it because I want to do it properly. You know, I pay an editor, I pay a cover designer, I pay a formatter. It becomes quite expensive to pay people. So that's my that's my only downside. But I do like to be totally in control. You know, I can choose my own covers. I can choose when it's published. I can choose what the content is. And if you go with a traditional publisher, you often lose the ability to have the same control   Michael Hingson ** 46:11 well, or you you negotiate, but, but, yeah, I understand what you're saying. I also have to say I understand fully this whole concept of abandonment. When my seventh guide dog Africa retired, and she retired because she wasn't seeing well and she was slowing down, so I knew it was time to get a new guide dog. So it was February 9 of 2018, and we lived here, and her puppy raiser, the people who raised her, they call them, I think, in New Zealand, puppy walkers, but they live about 140 miles south, or about 120 miles in a town called Carlsbad. And they came and I, and I said that they could have Africa, and the only reason I gave her up was because we already had my wife's service dog and a cat, and I was going to get another dog, and Karen wasn't really going to be able to handle taking care of two dogs and a cat when I traveled to speak, so we agreed that Africa could go live with the bill And Peggy, and they came and picked her up, and she walked out the door without a backward glance. I was abandoned.   47:26 Oh, that's awful,   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 yeah. Well, we actually, we went. We went down and visited her several times. She was just excited. No, she's, she was a great dog. And, yes, yeah, you know. And they got to have her for two years before she passed. But she was, she was a good dog and and she had a good life. And I can't complain a bit, but it's fun to tease about how obviously we have abandoning issues here. Yes, yeah.   Pat Backley ** 47:53 And I think that's the secret in life, Michael, to always find something to be happy about and smile about, because life can be very tough, can't it? I mean, you know, it's, yeah, life is tough. And so I think if we don't find, try and seek a little joy, we might as well all give up, you know, yeah, yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 48:14 there's no need to do that. I mean, God put us on this earth to live an adventure. And life is an adventure,   48:21 absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 48:22 no matter what we do. Yes,   48:25 absolutely. Well, how do you   Michael Hingson ** 48:26 develop your characters? I mean, you're writing historical fiction, so you're you're using history and and periods of time as the the setting for your books, but you're creating your own characters primarily, I gather,   Pat Backley ** 48:39 yes, yes. To be honest, in my head, when I start writing, I almost have an exact picture of my characters. I know exactly what they look like. I mean, if I was to, if I was to suddenly get a film offer, I could easily say how these people should look, because I they're real for for example, a few months after I oh no, maybe a year or so after I published Daisy, I was talking to my daughter one day, and I just said, Oh, do you remember when Theo did whatever? And she looked me straight in the eye, and she said, Mum, I don't know your characters as well as you do. And I just, we both burst out laughing, because to me, they're real people. You know, I I can picture them. I know exactly what they look like. And I think even when I start a new book in my head, I already know what my characters look like. They may not as the plot goes on, behave in the way I want them to, but I know how I know who they are. I know how they how they look. Yeah, they're going   Michael Hingson ** 49:43 to write the book and they're going to tell you what you need to do. Yeah, totally. But you use, but you use, I assume, real places in your books. I always   Pat Backley ** 49:51 use real places, always Yeah, and always places I know, because I think you can write more authentically then, like in days. I wrote about Harlem and Alabama and New York and London, or not New York in that one, but London and because I know all those places, I've been there and you know, they're, they're familiar to me, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:13 yeah. So you, you, you let them do what they do, and out comes the book.   Pat Backley ** 50:21 Absolutely, that's right, yes, yeah, have you   Michael Hingson ** 50:25 written any yet in New Zealand?   Pat Backley ** 50:29 You mean, based in New Zealand? The funny thing is, Michael, being an immigrant is and I have spoken to lots of other immigrants about this. In fact, I co authored a book in lockdown called the warrior women project, a sisterhood of immigrant women, which is based in the States. And all the other women are are living in the States, except me, and I caught up with them when I came over to the states. Couple of months ago, we had a reunion, met for the first time, which was wonderful, but we all said, once you are an immigrant, you never truly belong anywhere. You know, when I go, I always feel a little bit of an outsider here. I've been here 14 years now, and that's nobody's that's nothing anybody does. That's just my feeling deep inside. I go back to England, and I feel like an outsider. I used to live in Fiji when I was in my 20s, and then I had a house there. Until my divorce, I go back there, and I've got a lot of extended friend family there, I go back there, and I always feel like an a bit of an outsider. So I think that's the price you pay for wanting a life less ordinary. You know, you somehow become like a little bit of a floating person. And I don't to answer your question, I don't really feel qualified to write about New Zealand. Obviously, I talk about it in my travel book and I talk about different places, but to base the whole story here, I don't feel qualified. There are enough fabulous New Zealand authors who are doing that already, who've been born here, who understand the country, who, you know, who, yeah, they're   Michael Hingson ** 52:07 just at the same time you wrote Daisy, which took place in part in Alabama. How much time did you spend, you know? So it may be, it may be something in the future where a character will pop out and say, I want to be in New Zealand, but that's something to look at.   Pat Backley ** 52:23 Yes, I love it when somebody like you calls me out on my own, my own things, because you're absolutely right. I That's That was a silly argument to say. I don't know it enough. So thank you for that. You've made me rethink. That's good.   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 Well, so I gather that when you're writing, you think you have the plot planned out, or you you try to have the plot planned out, but it doesn't necessarily go the way you plan it. Does it?   Pat Backley ** 52:49 No, not at all. I mean, I know roughly what I want to say. I think what I'm definitely, definitely know what I want to do is get certain little messages across. And that doesn't matter what my characters do, because I can weave that in, like in Daisy. I wanted to get across that slavery was dreadful, and racism is dreadful, and the way black people were treated when they went to England in the 1950s was dreadful. So I managed to we, and that's and that's snobbishness and stuff is dreadful. So I managed to always weave those kind of themes into my books. And apparently, it has been said by reviewers that I do it so well that people it just makes people think about what that how they think how Yeah, so, so those main themes, if you like, I managed to weave into my stories, regardless of how badly my characters behave.   Michael Hingson ** 53:45 So when you're writing, are you pretty disciplined? Do you have certain times that you write, or do you just sit down and write till you're ready to stop for the day? Or what I   Pat Backley ** 53:56 am very non disciplined, undisciplined, whatever the term is supposed to be. I have great intentions. I think, right, I'm going to spend tomorrow writing. I'll be at my desk by eight o'clock, and I'll sit little five. And then at nine o'clock, I get up to go make a cup of coffee. And at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, I'm out weeding the garden, and then I might come back in and do a little bit, and then I go off and do something else. So I am dreadfully undisciplined, but I work really well to deadlines. Just before I went away on my big trip in September, I was part way through a book, probably a third way through writing a new book, and I woke up one day and I thought, right, I'm going to get that book finished before I go. I had three weeks left. In that three weeks, I had masses of appointments. I had to sort out my wardrobe, which, as a woman, is a huge problem, one that you've probably never had, but you know, you have to decide what goes with what and how many dresses you should take, and it's a huge issue for a lot of women. So I had a lot of jobs to do in that three. Weeks instead of which, I decided to set myself as self imposed time to get the book finished. Crazy. Just, I mean, why? Why? Why crazy?   Michael Hingson ** 55:09 And did you the day   Pat Backley ** 55:11 before? There you are. I was so proud of myself because I just that was it. I decided I and what I did to make myself accountable, I actually put a post on Facebook and Instagram saying, why, and all these little yellow post it notes, and I'd written on their pack suitcase, Do this, do this, do this. And so I just said to everyone that I'd given myself this self pointed deadline so I had made myself publicly accountable. If I hadn't done that, I probably wouldn't have finished it, but I find, for me, that's the best way of disciplining myself is to have a deadline with everything in life, really, yeah. But the   Michael Hingson ** 55:49 other part about it is, even when you're as you would put it, being undisciplined, your brain is still working on the book, and the characters are are mulling things over, so it does pop out. Oh, totally,   Pat Backley ** 56:00 totally. And I end up with lots of little scrappy notes all over the house, you know, where I've just grabbed a piece of paper and written down something. And then, of course, I have to gather them all together. And when I was in the States recently, I spent two months, and I've got scrap I was doing a lot of research, and I've got scrappy notes everywhere. So I've now got to try and pull those all together while my brain still remembers what they were meant to be, you know, like lady in red dress in New Orleans. Well, what does that really mean? So, right? I'm, I'm my own worst enemy in many ways, but,   Michael Hingson ** 56:37 but she thought, and so you went through it exactly, exactly, yeah, that's okay. Where did you travel in September?   Pat Backley ** 56:45 I went to Atlanta first to meet up with these warrior women, which was truly fabulous. Then I went to New Orleans, and my friend who lives in Alabama, picked me up, and we went to New Orleans, and then we drove back to Alabama. She lives in Huntsville. So I was there for a week and was doing lots of research, because Daisy is partly based right and then we then she drove me back to Nashville, and I flew to New York, where I was meeting some friends from New Zealand who lived there six months of the year. So I spent six days there and went to Harlem for more research and stuff like that, and then flew to Canada, to Toronto, where two friends, a lady I'd met when we had our daughters together, and her daughter, they now live in France. They flew from France, met me in Toronto, we hired the biggest SUV I've ever seen in my life, and we drove across Canada for three weeks, which was such fun, such fun. And then I came home. So I've got millions of scrappy notes that I need to pull together to write a travel book and to use as inspiration for my novels.   Michael Hingson ** 58:01 So you so you're going to write another travel book? I   58:05 am going to write another travel book. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 58:09 And the the abandoned wives handbook, that's kind of a self help book. That's a self help book, yes, yeah. Just you think you'll write another one of   Pat Backley ** 58:17 those? No, no, I'm done with that one's enough of those, huh? Yeah, that's right. I'm not an expert, Michael and the I just, I just, but the funny thing is, when I do talks, I always talk about all my books. And a few weeks ago, I was talking at this very smart meeting of ex business people, both ladies and gentlemen, and they were all over 60. Um, so quite a conservative audience. And at the end, or towards the end, I just mentioned this abandoned Wise Book, I tend to skim over it. I don't really, I don't really talk about it too much unless the audience is particularly relevant. But I just said to them, oh, and this is my little book. And someone said, Oh, could you read us an excerpt from it? So I said, Okay, I'll just open the book at random. And I opened the book and the title, what you won't be able to see here, the title of that chapter was K for kill. And I thought, no, no, I don't want to read about kill front of this audience. So I just made a joke of it and and I'll just read it to you, because it will make you laugh, as I have said previously under Section indecisive. You may, in your darkest moments, think about hurting him. This is not really a great idea, as you would undoubtedly be caught and end up in prison. Yeah, you so, you know, I and then I went on a bit more, but, you know, it's some yeah and no, I'm done with that book. I've, I've done my bit for humanity with that. It seems to be helping a lot of people. So that's that's enough.   Michael Hingson ** 59:45 Yeah, I would never make a good criminal, because I know I'd be caught and and I don't know how to keep from getting caught, and frankly, don't care about trying to get worry about getting caught or not getting caught. It's easier just not to be a criminal. So it works out fine. So. Yes,   1:00:00 exactly. Yeah, me too. Me too. So much   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:02 easier. So much easier. Absolutely, absolutely yes. Well, if people want to reach out to you and maybe learn a little bit more about you or meet you, how do they do that? Okay,   Pat Backley ** 1:00:12 well, my website is just patch back league com, so it's very easy. Um, I'm Can you spell that please? Yes, yes, of course, P, A, T, B, A, C, K, L, E, y.com.com, yeah, and I'm on all the channels, as you know, Facebook and Instagram and x and LinkedIn and stuff as Pat Backley author or pat Backley books. And my books are all available from Amazon, all the online retailers, Barnes and Noble stuff like that, as ebooks or paperbacks, or if someone desperately wanted a signed copy, I'm very happy to send them a signed copy, and you can get them from you can request them from libraries.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:59 Have you? Have you thought about making any of them an audio format?   Pat Backley ** 1:01:05 I have someone's. A few people have suggested that this year, when I've been doing talks, they've come up to me afterwards, and yes, I think I'm going to, as long as it's not too costly, because at the moment, my budget is extremely limited, but I'm going to do them myself, because everyone feels that my books will be come come across better in my own voice so well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 and you read well. So I think that makes a lot of sense to consider.   Pat Backley ** 1:01:29 Thank you, Michael, that's very kind of you. Well, Pat,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:33 this has been fun, and I've enjoyed it. I've learned a lot of things as well, and I'm and I'm glad that we've had this chance. We need to do it again. When are you going to start a podcast?   Pat Backley ** 1:01:47 Well, funny, you should say that I've decided I'm going to I'm going to just dip my toes in very gently. I'm going to start it in the new year, and I'm going to call it and this makes everyone who knows me laugh. I'm going to call it just 10 minutes with Pat Backley. And everyone has said, Oh, don't be ridiculous. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:05 I agree, 10   Pat Backley ** 1:02:06 minutes, but I thought it's a way of just gently edging in. And then if people enjoy listening to me, they might want to listen for longer after a while. But I thought initially, just 10 minutes, little snippets, if they like what they hear, they might come back.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:21 They'll come back. Oh, I don't think there would be a problem. Well, if you, if you ever need a guest to come and spend at least 10 minutes, just let me know. I   Pat Backley ** 1:02:30 certainly shall. I have absolutely loved talking to you. Michael, thank you so much for inviting me as well. This is a very joyful morning. I've really loved it. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:39 this has been fun, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it and reach out to Pat. I'm sure she would love to communicate with you, and maybe in some way, you'll end up in a book, which is always a nice, good thing to think about as well. I'd love to hear what you think about our podcast today. So please feel free to email me. Michael, h, i, m, I, C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is at w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O n.com/podcast, wherever You're listening. We would really appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating. And we we value that. We value your thoughts and input. Pat for you and all of you listening. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest who you think would have a story that we ought to hear and talk about, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love an introduction. We're always looking for people to come on unstoppable mindset, because our job is to talk with people, let them tell their stories, to show all of us that, in reality, we all are more unstoppable than we think we are, and that's the way it it really ought to be. So hope that you will consider doing that, and we hope that you'll listen to more episodes of unstoppable mindset going forward and Pat again, I want to thank you for being here. This has absolutely been fun and enjoyable. So thank you.   Pat Backley ** 1:04:13 Thank you so much, Michael. I have absolutely loved it, and I would love to come back on sometime. Thank   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:22 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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  1:06:22
• Episode 330 – Unstoppable Body Memory Process Expert with Kathi Sohn

  On this episode I have the pleasure to talk with Kathi Sohn who I met just two weeks ago at the latest Podapalooza event. Kathi, as it turns out, is quite knowledgeable and fascinating on many levels. Kathi grew up in Rhode Island. She describes herself as a shy child who had been adopted. While in her mother’s womb, her mother tried to conduct a self-abortion when Kathi was six months along. I tell you about this because that fact and others are quite relevant to Kathi’s story. Kathi will tell us that at some level we have memories that go back to even before we are born. Science supports this and it is one of the concepts that Kathi’s late husband utilized in creating what he calls the “body memory process”.   Kathi graduated from high school and went to college. As you will learn, over time Kathi secured several college degrees and even became a certified nurse. At some point she joined the army. That story is best told by her. Suffice it to say that Kathi says that joining the army on the advice of her adopted father was one of the best moves she could have made. From her four years in the military she learned commitment, responsibility and discipline.   After the army, Kathi went to work for the Department of Defense and at some point she met and married her husband David. Again, a story better told by Kathi.   For many years Kathi and David lived in Maryland. Eventually they moved to Alabama.   Kathi will tell us about the work David conducted to develop the “body memory process” which he used to help many overcome fears and life challenges. After David’s death in 2019 Kathi decided to retire from the Department of Defense after 36 years and then to continue the work David had begun regarding the body memory process which is the discovery and release of self-limiting beliefs (vows) we all create in early childhood. Today she is a coach and she is an accomplished author. Her book about the body memory process is entitled, “You Made It Up, Now Stop Believing It, which was released in 2023. It has reached twice bestseller status on Amazon Kindle.   Our conversation ranges far and wide about medicine, our limiting beliefs and how to deal with our limitations using the body memory process. I think you will like what Kathi has to say. She has some good nuggets of wisdom we all can use.       About the Guest:   In 2020, Kathi Sohn retired from her first career as a senior manager after 36 years with the Department of Defense. When Kathi lost her beloved husband David in 2019, she decided  to devote her life to sharing the powerful work he created – the Body Memory Process, which is the discovery and release of self-limiting beliefs (vows) we all create in early childhood.   Kathi wrote a book on the work, You Made It Up, Now Stop Believing It, which was released in 2023 and it has twice reached bestseller status on Amazon Kindle. This information-packed book not only gives the reader the entire childhood vow discovery and release processes, but also has practical exercises for increasing self-awareness and fascinating stories of real people who experienced personal transformation by using the Body Memory Process.   Kathi is also a speaker and coach, sharing as broadly as possible the importance of healing childhood wounds. She is dedicated to mitigating the cycle of inter-generational trauma.   Ways to connect Kathi:   WEBSITE: https://kathisohn.com FREE GIFT: https://bodymemoryprocess.com/free-gift/ FREE PARENT GUIDE: https://coaching.kathisohn.com/freeparentguide "RESILIENT TEEN": https://coaching.kathisohn.com/resilientteen PURCHASE BOOK WITH FREE GIFTS: https://youmadeitupbook.com/bonuses FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/bodymemoryprocess/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/kathi.sohn/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/kat_sohn LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathisohn/ YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC9R0noiiPPWf1QjzrEdafw           https://linktr.ee/MCAnime   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and welcome once again to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. Once again, as we've done a few times already in the last few weeks, we have the opportunity and joy to interview, well, not interview, but talk with someone who I met at our recent patapalooza Number 12 event, and today we get to talk to Kathi Sohn Kathi was at podapalooza. Pat Kathi has a lot of things going for her, and she'll tell us all about all of that. She had a long career with the Department of Defense, and if we ask any questions about that, then probably we'll all have to disappear. So we won't, we won't go into too much detail, or we'll have to eliminate you somehow. But in 2020 she left the career that she had with DOD and started working to promote something that her late husband, who died in 2019 worked on the body am I saying it right? Kathy, body memory process, yes, and and she will tell us about that, so we'll get to all that. But for now, Kathi, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Kathi Sohn ** 02:37 Michael, it is great to be here. You are such a big inspiration to me. So thank you so much for having me on your show.   Michael Hingson ** 02:44 Well, thank you. I really am very glad that we get to do this. Do you have a podcast? No, I don't. Well see, did PodaPalooza convince you to start one?   Kathi Sohn ** 02:55 No, but there's always. I'm open to possibilities in the future. So   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 as as I tell people, potable is a pretty neat event. You go because you're a podcaster. You want to be a podcaster, or you want to be interviewed by podcasters, which covers basically a good part of the world. And so you're in the I want to talk to podcasters. And there we are, and we got to meet Kathi and chat with Kathi, and here we are. So it's a lot of fun. And so why don't we start, if you would, by you telling us a little bit about maybe the early Kathi growing up and all that sort of stuff, that's always fun to start at the beginning, as it were, yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 03:37 my goodness, so I, I grew up not in A a neighborhood where, you know, kids just played together and ride their bikes. I was, I was in a rather along a kind of a rural road in in Rhode Island, going down to the beach. If anyone has heard of watch Hill and westerly that area. So it was a beautiful, beautiful area. But because I didn't have a lot of, you know, again, I didn't have the neighborhood kids to play with, and I tended to be a little shy and to myself, I spent a lot of time after I was old enough and my mom let me just sort of exploring the woods nearby and learning, you know, just really kind of going within myself and thinking, and I would look at things in nature, and I would write this very deep poetry about it. So I think I was very fortunate, on the one hand on to have a very introspective life growing up. On the other hand, it didn't help me to work out, you know, some of that, that shyness, so that's something I needed to tackle a little bit later. As an adult, I had two older brothers, all three of us were adopted from very, very difficult beginnings. And again, it wasn't until I was an adult. And in fact, doing using the work that I'm going to talk about today, that I was able to understand some of the things that I was feeling and didn't understand growing up about myself, because some things were were shrouded in mystery, and I was able to get to the bottom of it, but basically, I had a very happy childhood. My adoptive parents were just so loving and wonderful and very, very fortunate to had a great education and parents who told me that I could do anything that I put my mind to.   Michael Hingson ** 05:38 It's great when parents do that, isn't it? Oh, yeah, I was very fortunate to have parents that took that position with me. When the doctor said, Send him up to a home, because no blind child could ever grow up to be anything, and all he'll do is be a drain on the family. And my parents said, No, I was very fortunate. So it's yeah, I I definitely sympathize and resonate with that, because it's so wonderful when parents are willing to really allow children to grow and explore. And obviously parents keep an eye on us, but still, when they allow us to do that, it's great. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 06:13 I had heard you. I've heard you talk, because I have your your your book, live like a guide dog. And hearing about that story, and it reminds me, if anyone of your listeners are familiar with the Barry cowfield and his wife, who had an extremely autistic son, and the doctors were telling them, You need to institutionalize them that you can't you're not going to be able to deal with that. And they said, Are you kidding me? He's our son. If the best that we can do is just love him, then we're going to have him home. You know, he's our son. We're not going to put him anywhere. And then, of course, they they work with him, actually brought him out of autism through an amazing, amazing process. But yes, you're absolutely right. The parents are just, I know it seems almost cliche, but really, parents are instrumental, not just taking care of the physical needs, but those emotional needs, so, so critical and related to what we're going to talk about today.   Michael Hingson ** 07:20 Yeah, well, and it's, it's unfortunate when parents don't do that and they give into their fears and they don't let children explore, they don't let children grow. That's, that's so unfortunate when that happened. But I'm really glad that my parents and I'm glad your parents allowed you to to stretch and grow as well. That's a neat thing. So you and of course, being a reader of a variety of Stephen King books, when you talk about Rhode Island, although the Stephen King things were a little bit further north, but and the woods sort of makes me think of, oh my gosh, did you ever run into Pet Cemetery? But we won't worry about that.   08:03 Fortunately not,   Michael Hingson ** 08:06 yeah, yeah, that was a that was a scary book. Yeah, he's a pretty creative guy. But anyways, enjoy him. But anyway, so you went through school, you went to high school and and were a little bit shy. I kind of, again, I kind of empathize. I was in a neighborhood. It was not as rural, probably, as as what you grew up in. And kids did play, but I didn't really get a chance to do much playing with the kids, because I didn't do baseball and sports and all that. So I did a lot more reading. I hung around where the kids were, somewhat the other kids were, but my brother was the one that that really interacted with them. And I, I have to admit, that I didn't do as much of that, and was was probably a little bit shy or at least hesitant as a result, but I did make some friends. And in fact, when I was seven, there was a girl named Cindy who moved into our neighborhood, who had a bike, and she asked if I ever rode my bike, and I said I didn't have one. And she let me learn how to ride a bike on hers. And my parents saw that, and so then they got me a bike, and my brother had a bike, so we did a lot of bike riding after that, it was kind of fun.   Kathi Sohn ** 09:21 Yes, I love the part of the book where your dad took a call from the neighbor who was so nonplussed about the fact that, well, did he, did he fall off right? Did he? Did he run into anything? No, what's the problem? I got a good laugh out of that. Yeah, well, and   Michael Hingson ** 09:39 I know many blind people who, who, when they were kids, rode bikes. You know, it's not that magical. You have to learn how to do it. But so do side are kids. So it's, it's the same sort of thing. So what did you do after high school? Did you go to college?   Kathi Sohn ** 09:56 Yes, it's kind of a long. Story. Let's see if I can, if I can, sort of summarize, I had, I went into college in actually, was, in my mind, pre med, my I it was the major was zoology. Where did you go? University of Rhode Island. Okay, and I, I had been well when I was 12, I started piano lessons, and then I had private singing lessons when I was 14. So here I found myself on a college campus where there was a Fine Arts Center, and I had continued to, of course, develop in music. And a part of me kind of wanted to pursue becoming a sort of a music star, while the other part of me, of course, was more practical and guided by my parents about, okay, get yourself some, you know, a more dependable career. And so here I am on this college campus and spending more time in the fine arts center than than the library. So my college years were a little turbulent, as I was still trying to figure out really what I wanted to be. I went from pre med into nursing because, again, my grades weren't that great. And because of the distraction, and I even that, even that wasn't working, the problem essentially came with me. And instead of a fine arts building, it became, you know, playing, playing the piano in local bars was just kind of trying to find my way. And my dad told me one evening I was visiting, I was home with my parents, and I was very distraught. I don't know what I'm going to do. My grades aren't that great. And he said, I think I have an idea. I'll talk to you in the morning. Well, he worked for General Dynamics Electric Boat division. So he was involved working with the Navy building nuclear submarines. Did   Michael Hingson ** 12:10 he go to rotten Connecticut? Yes, yeah. And   Kathi Sohn ** 12:15 I actually ended up working there myself briefly. And he said, you know, the military may just be what you need. So, long story short, I ended up in the army and for, you know, for four years, and really did turn everything around. Then I started getting building that self confidence. I finished a undergraduate degree in political science. And then when I started working for the Defense Department, and there was I took advantage of the benefits of them helping me with paying for graduate degrees. I i got a graduate degree in conflict resolution and one from the Naval War College where I graduated top of my class in national security studies. Wow. So turned it all around. And yeah, so in the in, you'll love this too. A little loose end that I tied up. My dad encouraged me to do this the New York regions. It was called regents college, I think, yeah, University of the state of New York had a Regents college where you could challenge a nursing degree program. So with all the courses I had taken, and I just I went to a local hospital, I they helped me to practice stealth, adjusting changes and, you know, and all of that, giving IVs, and I passed the test. It was a weekend of clinical, one on one with a nurse evaluator failure. I could not, you know, had to be 100% and I passed. So I also have an Associates in nursing. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 I wanted to, you know, is this the time to say I wanted to be a doctor, but I didn't have any patients anyway. Go ahead, yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 14:06 gosh, I'm still interested in medicine, but I figure it all, it all comes in handy if I'm, you know, I have my kids at the doctor, and I can, I can talk with them at a level, you know, a little bit of a notch above just being a worried mom. What   Michael Hingson ** 14:20 do you think of a lot of the tendencies and the trends, and I've talked to a number of people on on a stop level mindset about it, a lot of the things that go on in Eastern medicine that Western medicine doesn't practice.   Kathi Sohn ** 14:34 Well, yeah. In fact, with the body memory process, my late husband factored that into what he developed as the body map, which I can can can discuss when the time comes, very, very important stuff that's just really being missed, although there are more and more doctors who are understanding the value. Yeah. That the body is an energy system and energy and information system, and they're starting to integrate that more.   Michael Hingson ** 15:08 And at least, my opinion, is they should. There is a lot more to it. It isn't all about drugs and surgery or shouldn't be. And so it is nice to see a lot of movement toward more, what, what many might call spiritual but there's, there's so much scientific evidence and anecdotal evidence that validates it, that it's, it's good, that more people are really starting to look at it. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 15:37 absolutely. And this, if this might be an appropriate place to talk a little bit about some of the scientific underpinnings of the work that I'd like to discuss. There is science behind it, and you know that when there's research that's done in, say, the pharmaceutical area, it ends up the public will find out about it through, say, new new medications. With technology, you know, you went there's some breakthrough. You end up with something new for your phone. But some of the breakthroughs that were made in the 80s about the awareness of babies and children, especially babies in the womb, and also the mind body connection. You can you can see it referenced in some, you know, scientific papers, but it doesn't really often make it to to the public, and it is very relevant to the to the public. And that's what my late husband did, was he took this research and he turned it into a practical application to people's everyday lives. One of the most really stunning discoveries back in the 70s and 70s and 80s was made by someone named Dr Candice PERT. She wrote Molecules of Emotion, and they were trying to figure out why drugs work in the body. They figured it was sort of a lock and key that if, if you know so APO opiates worked in the body. They they figured that there was an opiate receptor somewhere. And during the course of this, they sort of accidentally discovered that during emotional events, the neurotransmitters from the brain travel to receptors all over the body, that they're actually located everywhere and in the organs, in the muscles. And Dr pert would make statements like deep trauma puts down deep roots in the body. You know, your body is your subconscious mind, so that is very, you know, very strong underpinning for the body memory process at that whole mind, body connection that we never really understood so well before   Michael Hingson ** 18:00 one of our earliest podcasts, it was actually number 18. I just looked it up. Was with a gentleman, Dr Gabe Roberts, and it was also from, I think a pot of Palooza was the first one I attended. And he is a psychologist, and he or he deals with psychological things, but one of the things that he talked a lot about, and talks a lot about, is people's traumas and their injuries and the things that bother them and and even the things that are good are all actually holograms that are in your memory. And he calls them holograms because you can get to a particular one, and hologram usually is really something that's just composed of a whole bunch of littler holograms. But what he does to help people is to work with them to find that hologram that they thought they got rid of, that they didn't really get rid of, because everything is always in your memory, and if you don't really deal with it, then it's going to sit there and continue to to affect you. But what he does is he works to help people find those memory things that really need to be corrected, and then helps them to correct it was fascinating interview. As I said, it's number 18 and unstoppable mindset. So my point it'd be, I think you might find it fun, and I think other people might find it fun to   Kathi Sohn ** 19:30 listen to. Yeah, definitely that. That sounds incredibly interesting. He's   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 in Kansas. I'm not sure if it's Kansas City, but he's in the Kansas area somewhere, as I recall, well, so you did all that, and then you, you were working at the Department of Defense. Were you a civilian and working essentially as a contractor, or working,   Kathi Sohn ** 19:52 yes, as a civilian? I It was sort of a natural, you know, from being in the military. Then I was. Able to find an assignment as a civilian when I got I only did four years in the Army. I never intended it really to be a lifetime career, but it was enough time again for me to turn things around. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 20:14 that's not the issue, isn't it? Yes,   20:17 yes, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 20:19 So I mean, that's, that's and your father. So your father was right, and obviously he cared a lot about you Yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 20:27 and helped me with that. I Yes, I, my father did me such a great service by pointing me in that direction. I mean, my, my, you know, incredible career that I could not have imagined myself in if he hadn't pointed me in that direction, so I don't know what I would be doing. Hopefully it's still not floundering in college somewhere.   Michael Hingson ** 20:49 Yeah, so is there a truth to the old Jerry Lewis song, the baby gets a gravy and the army gets the beans. But anyway, it's a cute song. I listen to it every so often on my little Amazon Echo device. It's cute, yeah. But so, so when did you meet your husband through all this?   Kathi Sohn ** 21:11 Yeah, so it was 1994 and so I was pretty much square in the middle of my my career, my civilian career. And it was a there was a friend of mine that was sort of a mutual friend. She she knew him as well. I was living in Maryland, and David was living in Alabama, actually, where I live now. And she kept saying, You got to meet this guy. And kept saying to him, You got to meet this girl. It was one of those sort of matchmaker deals. And and she was right, even though the the both David and I weren't really looking for someone. So when she actually dragged him to my doorstep on Fourth of July, 1994 you know, there were some sparks, I think that we acknowledged that, but it took some time. I mean, we dated for almost three years before we were married, and then we were we were married for about 25 years, wow, before I last, before I lost David, and it was, you know, really wonderful. And, like all marriages, you know, some some, some ups and downs, but the overall theme was that we supported each other, you know, he was, you know, really incredible. I spent I would go to, I would go to war zones every now and then he would tell people, yeah, and then she came home with a flack vest and said, you know, by the way, this is where I'm going to be going. You know, when, when I came to him, and I guess it was 20 so 2017 I'm trying to what exactly, before that was 2015 the kids were still pretty young, but it was, it was really important for me to do a job, actually, in Afghanistan that was going to take me away from home for six months there. And he said, You know what, if it's if it's important to you, it's important to me, and we'll make it work. And he came from a military family, so we really understood that type of, yeah, he understood mission and commitment, right? And yeah. So he was probably never,   Michael Hingson ** 23:38 I never, needless to say, got to serve in the military because they they don't. When the draft was around, they wouldn't draft blind people, and later on, they wouldn't allow blind people to enlist, although, during the time of Afghanistan and Iraq, there were a few people who lost eyesight while in the military, and a couple of a few of them were allowed to to continue. But they never let me do that, and I, and I, and I understand the the prejudice, if you will, but it, it doesn't really stand that everyone has to be able to go into combat directly, and they could have found other jobs, but that's okay, and I certainly don't hold it against the military in any way, but I do appreciate the responsibility, and I've learned enough about military life from talking to a number of people and and my father was in World War Two, so starting with him, but others learning a lot about military. I appreciate what you're saying about it taught you a lot about responsibility. It taught you about commitment and so on. The closest I come to that is when I worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind any number of the puppy raiser families, those are the families that have agreed to take a guide dog puppy when they're about nine weeks old and they'll raise the dog, teach them basic obedience, teach them how to behave. In public and so on. And one of the things that children say, young kids who want to be puppy raisers and who take on the responsibility, is they learn so much about responsibility from doing that, because when they take on the job, it means they have to do the job, because the dog has to get used to somebody doing it, and they do such a wonderful job of raising these dogs who come back and they, a lot of them, become successful guide dogs. Not every dog does, because not every dog is really cut out to be a guide dog, but it's, it's not military, but it is still teaching responsibility and commitment. And the young kids who do it and really catch on are great. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 25:42 yeah. So yeah, I can see the corollary there,   Michael Hingson ** 25:45 yeah, oh yeah. There's definitely some. It's pretty cool. Well, so I'm sorry, of course, you you lost your husband. I lost my wife Three years later, as you know, in 2022 but tell me so he was for a lot of the time when you were married. Was he in the military, or did he do other things? No,   Kathi Sohn ** 26:06 he was not in the military. They would not let him in the military because when he was 14, he was he had a near death experience. He had double staff pneumonia, and he was pronounced dead for a period of time, no respirations, no heart rate for a significant period of time. And then his dad noticed Bill something on the monitor, and there he was back again, and it's one of the reasons why he had ended up actually pulling this work together. So he he wanted to be in he was actually in ROTC, and I think it's interesting that he got through all of that, and then they decided that they didn't want to medically clear him to go into the military. But the men in his family always became military officers. His his dad was a general in the Air Force, and the closest that he got was helping with medevac, like Tanzania. And I remember him telling me the some stories about that he was working as an EMT, and he managed to do some connections to be able to do this work, just to be somewhat a part of, you know, the Vietnam War, but he really wanted to to be a military officer, and they just wouldn't allow him. But I think that maybe God wouldn't allow him because he had a different mission. I'm pretty convinced of that. So,   Michael Hingson ** 27:36 so he became a doctor.   Kathi Sohn ** 27:40 No, he, he had a couple of very advanced degrees, and, let me had a couple of doctorates, but he did not choose to not a medical doctor, to be a medical doctor, right, and do any type of mainstream work, because what he, what he brought in, was really kind of cutting edge, and you wanted to have the freedom, to be able to to put the work together without somebody telling them that, you know, is got it for regulations. He couldn't do that.   Michael Hingson ** 28:11 Well, let's get to it. I know you've alluded to it, and we've kind of circled around it. So tell us about the body memory process, and tell us what he did and all that you want to tell us about that Sure.   Kathi Sohn ** 28:24 So I talked a little earlier about the some of the the I talked about Dr Candice Kurt and the what she talked about with the by the mind body connection, what she learned and right about that time was also some research by Dr David Chamberlain about the consciousness of babies. Just, you know, they didn't even realize, I mean, the birthing practices were actually rather traumatic, really, just regular birthing practices in terms of the baby coming from that warm environment into a rather cool temperatures and very bright lights. So Dr Chamberlain did a lot of work. He wrote books like babies, remember birth and the mind of your unborn baby. And really brought a lot to bear about about how influential that period of time in our life can be. So then to take a couple steps backwards. First, we talked about David having that near death experience, and as he was growing up, the doctors kept telling him that he was never truly going to be well, and he kind of railed against that, and he was like, Well, you know, it really brought him to wonder, okay, what truly is wellness? So back in, back in that day, nobody was really talking about it. I think that if you look online these days, you see a lot of different theories about wellness and. You know, is across a spectrum, right of not just mind, body and spirit, but so many other things, including environmental factors. But he, in his quest for wellness, he did study the Far Eastern medicine medical practices, and he he studied Dr Chamberlain's work and about the such as Dr perks work, about the mind body connection. And so he pulled together what he called the body memory process, based upon the fact that what we believe, like the power of belief and the mind body connection and the awareness of babies and children that we had never really realized before about how they actually can create their reality. I mean, they they, but Dr Bruce Lipton calls if you're familiar with biology and belief, he talks about putting these programs in the place that we you know, we're born with sort of the operating system, but we need the programs. And so what we observe and what we experienced before we're seven years old, largely, we put together the core belief system. And so that's the body memory process is about, you know, basically how this all comes about. That's sort of like the this, the sort of the in the information part, there's a discovery part, which is, you know, what are your childhood vows? David called them vows, because, just like wedding bows, they're about what we promise ourselves, about how we're going to be in life, based upon these decisions we make when we're very, very young and and then so between, you know that that mind, body, spirit, side of things, he pulled together this process where, after you have discovered what your vows are, then there is a release process, how to be able to let that go. And these, these beliefs are in, these Vows are actually in our cell memory, kind of like that hologram that you were talking about before, and David created a process for people to be able to then, sort of like, if it's a vow, then to disavow it, to be able to empty the cell memory. Because he said, If you, if the cup is full, right, you can't put anything new in, you know? You can try with affirmations, you can try, through willpower, to change a habit, but if you, but if you have these, these, this energetic you know aspect to yourself, these vows that are actually in your subconscious and are there, then it needs to be dealt with. That energy needs to be released in order to be able to truly create what you want in the present moment as an adult.   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 Hence the title of your book. You made it up now stop believing it. Yes, yeah. I figured I love the title. That's a great title. So, so what exactly is the body memory process then?   Kathi Sohn ** 33:27 So it's the book goes into live details about it, you know, there, there is a discovery aspect to it, you know, and there's that's that involves both subjective and objective data, if you will. It's, you know, what, what am I feeling in my body? Where do I carry tension? Maybe, if I have the same thing, you know, sort of happening over and over again, like I I always, maybe, maybe it's the right side of my body where I'm always, maybe I'm stubbing my right toe or, you know, maybe I've, whenever I have a I fall down, you know, it's always like, I land on the right side, and I create problems there, and maybe I have a really tight right hip. You know, it's like, what, what's going on in your in your body? It's about what's going on in your life. I mean, how are, how are things overall, with your health, with your finances, with your relationships, with your career. And then there's, you know what? What was going on start in your very early life, starting with when you were in the womb, like, what was going on with mom, you know what? And that's sort of like an investigative process that clients get to do, you know, if mom is still around then, that she's really probably the best source of information there, but there could be other family members who are who are aware, and sometimes you don't. Get a lot, or maybe you don't even get any information from that period of time, and you need to just do a lot of this work through, through, you know, through intuition and and being being able to take a look at sample beliefs, which I have a collection of over 900 that David had gathered over the years of working with his clients, and to be able to take a look and see what resonates. You know, clients find that very valuable. To be able to say, oh, yeah, yep, that's absolutely me, you know, right there, because sometimes it's difficult to access it, because it's in the subconscious. I I have a video that I've created to help walk people through that discovery process. And since losing David, I've done whatever I can to sort of replicate what he was able to do quite intuitively. He would, he would be with someone for about three, three and a half hours, and he could just laser being right to do what was going on based upon how they were talking about what was going in their life, on in their life now and then, talking about what their childhood was like, Mom, Dad, how the relationship was. He would listen to how they would talk. He called it listening them, not listening to because when you're listening to someone, sometimes you're already thinking about what you want to say next to contribute to the conversation, which is fine, but when you're when you're listening someone. You're giving them that full space. You pull in all your energy, and you give them the full attention so that you can catch them saying pretty much their script. He said, you could, you know, you could hear even their birth script like they would, their belief system would just sort of come out. And the things that they would say, like, well, I know nobody ever really believes me, right? So as an example, and sometimes we might say that sort of in just in talking, it's sort of an assumption there that people just let that go, unless there's someone who's really engaged and says, Hey, wait a minute, let's talk about that a little bit like, what's the evidence that you have that nobody ever believes you and and sometimes people need to be able to take some of these assumptions that they that they just find they live their life by, and actually challenge them and say, you know, where does that come from? And try to get back to, you know, when, when that first occurred, because then thereafter, a lot of times it's just a self fulfilling prophecy, and every and he just keeps reinforcing itself.   Michael Hingson ** 37:48 Well, yeah, and we, we sell ourselves short in so many ways. And one of the things that you talked a little bit about is is childhood and so many people think, well, you're when you're when you grow up, your childhood is left behind. And I gather that you're saying, No, that's not true, because even from the womb, there's memory. How. How do we know that?   Kathi Sohn ** 38:16 Really, I think it's if you don't just sort of deal with whatever was going on back then, then it is going to sort of reach up and bite you at some point. I mean, everybody has something, even the people who say they have the have had the most perfect childhood. Because it's not about when I talk about childhood trauma in the book, and I talk about trauma, it's not about abuse and neglect. I mean, unfortunately that happens to many, but it's about how we actually sort of traumatize ourselves, because we're not yet logical. So before we're seven, we're not we're not even logical, and we're largely, you know, in our emotional brain, and we're the center of our own universe. We're very egocentrical During those years, and so we tend to jump to the conclusion that it's about right, it's about me, something happened, or mom and dad are fighting. It's about me, right? Or anything that goes wrong, it's either about something I did or something I didn't do. That was really big for me, like it's one of the other damned if I do, damned if I don't. So yeah, I would, I would be willing to make a rather bold statement that says everyone has something that they could look at from their early life, and that, because it's having some type of an impact on your adult life.   Michael Hingson ** 39:45 Has anyone ever used hypnosis to help somebody actually go back and and either at least learn about maybe that early childhood or even pre birth kind of thing   Kathi Sohn ** 39:59 I'm. Sure. I mean, so, you know, David created his work, and he called it the body memory process. It's not the only game in town, right there. There are other people who are are doing other things that are similar. I think Hypno, hypnosis, hypnotherapy, can get you there as well. I think that there's also something called rebirthing that was something that was going on, I think, that came out of the of the 80s as well, which was about, very specifically, getting you back to when you were born, right? What was going on during that time? So I think that you know anything that that that works for for you, to get you, you know, back into that time period is good. I think what makes David's work so especially powerful is that he has a very balanced sort of mind, body, spirit approach. And that is not just about, well, here's the bad news. It's about, you know, here's the good news too, because here's a way to be able to let that go and and to be able to move on. You know, I when we talk about, when I talk about this topic of going back to your childhood, I always think of that scene from The Lion King, where the monkey, you know, Rafiki, sort of bops The Lion, the young lion, Simba on the head right with the stick that says, It doesn't matter. It's all in the past. And that's true to on the one hand, because we need not dwell on the past, we need to be able to get the goodness from it, learn from it. That's the point, and then be able to let it go. And I think that's what the body memory process does, is it takes us back to be able to do that, that self examination, and then gives us a way to then be able to move on and not dwell on it, because it's not who we are. It's not it doesn't define us, even though, if we're not aware of it, we inadvertently let it define us. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:10 and that's the issue. It's like I always say, and many people say, in the National Federation of blind, blindness doesn't define us. It is part of who we are, but it doesn't define us. But when we allow something specific to define us without understanding the importance of it, that's a problem, but that is something that we have control over if we choose to do it.   Kathi Sohn ** 42:32 Yes, yes, absolutely. So how did David   Michael Hingson ** 42:36 come to actually create the whole concept of the body memory process.   Kathi Sohn ** 42:42 Well, you know, again, I think it was his personal quest for wellness that got him, you know, into doing the the investigative work that he did. He actually had other other work that he was doing for a while. He did a home restoration, you know. And he was a builder, a home builder, at one point, but this work just really kept calling him. And it was, I think, the early 80s. It was somewhere around 1984 I think that he started actually working with clients where he had pulled together all of this information and created the the discovery and then the release process for poor beliefs. But he there was someone who actually paid for him to go through a lot of the trainings that were going on in the 80s, like life, spring was one of them, and there's a few others where I think there was this human potential movement. Back during that time, people were starting to turn inward. And then, of course, at the same time all of this research was was coming out, like Dr Chamberlain and Dr PERT. So I think that David was is sort of like in the middle of a perfect storm to be able to create this because he had his own personal motivation. He had access to the all of the state of the art research that was going on around him during that time period, and he was also very intelligent and very intuitive. So he said that when he came back from his near death experience, he he knew that there, there was a reason that he came back. So I think he always had a sense of mission that he wanted to make a contribution to the world. And then it just over time, it just became clearer and clearer what that was. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:51 So have you had any direct experience with the body memory process? I.   Kathi Sohn ** 44:59 Yes, I absolutely have. I used to tell David that I was his poster child because of, because I had a lot of stuff that I was dealing with. I I had a birth mom, and then I had an adoptive mom, and I had, you know, my own, my own baggage that came from, from both. So I had, you know, many layers to, you know, to work through. But I guess, you know, there's always got to be something. You know, David said that he would work with the greedy, the needy and the greedy. He said the needy were the were people who ended up in some sort of crisis, because this, if you call it, your life script, which was another word for this collection of vows that we create during early life, that your your life script can either keep you in your comfort zone or it will keep you in crisis. There's really, there's, there's really two, but two, those two avenues, when you have this unexplored stuff that's that's going on, right? And then the greedy are the people who would like pretty good and they just want more, and he's so and it's all valid. It's all good, right? The different avenues that lead us to the work. For me, it really was a personal crisis that had been simmering for me through all of my life, starting when I was very, very young. I mentioned earlier that I was kind of shy, but it was really, really difficult for me just to just through school when you know I knew the answers to things. I wanted to be able to to talk in front of the class, but it was so scary for me just to be the center of attention. It was just, I just think of, there's some of the stories are kind of funny in my mind about what happened, even to the point where once I got in front of the class and I was laughing at my own science fiction story that I had written, and then everybody else started laughing. And that was actually a pretty positive experience, but most of them were rather negative, but it didn't really come to a head for me until I was a manager. I worked my up, my way up in at the Defense Department, and I was in in charge of an office. I I needed to be able to speak to my personnel. I had staff meetings, and I had greater and greater responsibilities. I needed to lead conferences and things like that. And I became face to face with my own fears of just being in front of a great as bigger and bigger rooms of people. And I know that, you know, this is a common thing for for for people, common fear with public speaking. But for me, it was, it's just, I can't even explain on the inside how difficult it was. I managed to pull it off a lot of times, and people would compliment me, and they didn't, you know, like you didn't look nervous. But I realized that I had to deal with it, or it was going to make me ill because of internally, the turmoil I was going through. And so I did use the work and ended up discovering, I told you that my parents adopted kids from very difficult beginnings, as it as I discovered, again, that's another story, but a little bit later in life, I had been, you know, basically At six months I had been born, though, from from an attack from my birth mom, so she tried to to do a home abortion when I was six, only six months along, and so that was rather traumatic, you know? I ended up born. I was an orphan, and I didn't have, you know, I wasn't received into the world by a loving mom. And then I think what was piled on top of that was the fact that I was in an incubator, and I was peered at by the medical staff, probably many of whom didn't think I was going to make it. So, you know, when you again, based upon the work that Dr Chamberlain did, and the idea of the connectedness, and that everything is about energy, and that there is communication that's going on, but it's at a sort of at a vibrational level, and that the infant is actually able to pick up on that, it's not, it's not about language, right? It's not about their mental development. It's something else that, you know, it just, it puts it's it puts these foundations within us into into place, until again, we're able to get back into that energy and be able. To deal with it. So for me, it was about that judgment. Whenever I got myself, got in front of a room, you know, I was that little baby in an incubator, and people that were, you know, like, I don't think she's going to make it. And so that was sort of a, if you picture, if you, if you kind of take that and overlay that on, you know, speaking in front of a room, what is not being able to make it or, you know, or dying, you know, it's like, Well, I kind of screw up, right? I forget what I was going to say. Or, but, and again, it's not, it's not, it's not rational. I couldn't say that it was I knew very specifically of what the turmoil was about. It was just about this intense energy that I could not define. But it was there for me. It was like I was right back in that incubator being evaluated and fighting for my life.   Michael Hingson ** 51:01 So what did you do?   Kathi Sohn ** 51:04 Well, I did the body memory process. Well, first I had my my my David and I sat down, and we really explored it, and I was able to put words to it. So for me, it was they watched me to see when I'm going to die and when I was able to do the body memory process, and again, it's all outlined in the book, but you know, the specific process around that I was able to, over time, increasingly, be able to feel comfortable in front of a room. And now I do public speaking, I'm able to be on camera and take David's work, you know, really to the world, and be the face of the work. If he had said that I was going to be doing this back in those years, I would have said, You've got to be kidding me. There's no way that I could, that I could do that through most of the years. When I had David, I was so thankful that he was the one who stood in front of the room right he was the one in front of the camera, and I was very happy to support him from behind the scenes. But I think that when I made the decision to carry on his work, and I think that's when I did the final steps of the process of being able to release all of that and say, Okay, again, that's in the past. Right to to be able to have to let that go, realize it for what it was. But it's not about who I am now. But   Michael Hingson ** 52:35 the issue is that you recognize it, you you learn from it, which is why it's important that you acknowledge it, yes. And you know, in live like a guide dog. We talk, as you know, about self analysis, introspection and so on. And I wish more people would do it. And I wish people would do it more often. I'm a fan of saying that people should do it every day. You should look at what at the end of the day. Look at what happened today, what worked, what didn't work, and even the stuff that worked, could I do it better, or the stuff that maybe didn't work? It's not a failure, it's a learning experience, and you should use it and treat it as that, which is why I also tell people never use the term. I'm my own worst critic. I've learned that I'm my own best teacher, which is a whole lot more positive anyway.   Kathi Sohn ** 53:25 Yes, absolutely. The other thing, Michael and Anna, and this is from, I think, in an interview that you were in when they were talking about what you were going through on 911 and you know you as the you were thinking to saying to God, gee, we got through one tower, and now there's another one coming down and and what are we facing? And that you you your own guidance you heard about. Just don't try to just what you can control. Can worry about what you can Right, right? And I think that's what this work is about, is that if we go through life and we're not we don't know that all of this is operating below the surface. It's so easy to blame events and people and circumstances and conditions for everything, but if we're willing to take personal responsibility, and go back to those early years, then we are doing something about what we can do, and then when we go forward in our adult life, we can handle those crises, and we can be much more in control of ourselves. And that's where we're we're truly in a place of power, because we can't control all those events and conditions, but we can be, you know, I just think again, that's why you're so inspirational. Like, okay, you know, you couldn't do anything about what was going on around you in in New York, but you were able to be. Com and trust your dog and to trust God, and that's the way we want to be in life.   Michael Hingson ** 55:06 Well, and that went both ways. The dog trusted me as well, and it and it really is a two way trust situation. You know, I read articles even as late as 30 years after I was born, about people who became blind from the same thing that I did, retroenter fibroplasia, now called retinopathy or prematurity, and I'll never understand why they changed the name doesn't change anything. But anyway, people sued their doctors, even 30 years later, and won lawsuits because medical science had started to learn. At least a couple of doctors had discovered. One specifically discovered that giving a child in an incubator, a premature baby, a pure oxygen environment, 24 hours a day, could be a problem for retinal development, and even if you gave them a little bit of regular error, the incidence of blindness went to zero, but it wasn't accepted by medical science, and so people sued, and they won, and I and I asked my dad one day, what do you think? Should we go back and sue the doctors? And he said, and what would it accomplish? Yeah, and he was absolutely right. And I wasn't asking him, because I was ready to go do it. I was just curious to see what he thought about it. And he thought, really, the same thing that I did, what would it accomplish? Even if we won, it doesn't do anything, and it ruins lives, because the doctors were doing the best with what they had. You couldn't prove negligence, yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 56:39 absolutely it's they were doing the best with the information they had, and that's the way we should be with ourselves too, right? This isn't about going back and then get feeling guilty or blaming your parents or, you know, blaming yourself. We did the best that we in our own lives, at every stage of our lives. You know, we really are doing the best that we can with the information and the resources that we have   Michael Hingson ** 57:04 exactly, and that's what we should do. Yes. So what are some ways that people can benefit from the body memory process?   Kathi Sohn ** 57:14 Well, you know, again, I get, I had mentioned that 360 degree, look at your life there, there's, there's so many ways that you you can can benefit, because when you have this energy that you haven't discovered these, these, these beliefs, there, there is, there are words that You can put to it, and that actually plays out in your life, sometimes in very, very limiting ways. And you know, if you're looking at, say, finances, if you were raised with, you know the root of money, the root of evil is, you know money is the root of evil. You know that in you have that operating, then you're you're going to have a limit, a limit, you know, a limited way that you're interacting with money. I like to talk about some of the rather innocuous ways that, you know, relatives talk to us when we're little, and, you know, they end up impacting us as adults and limiting us, for example, if, if I have an uncle who says, Well, you know this, the Smiths are hard workers. We work hard for every penny. We don't make a lot, but we work really hard for every penny we make. It's like, okay, well, gee thanks. Now, you know, I'm going to grow up, and that's in there, in my subconscious. And, you know, I, I'm gonna, I believe that I have to work hard. And not only do I have to work hard, but I'm, you know, I may, I can't really earn money easily, right? So maybe investments are off the table for me, investments that might yield, you know, a lot of money. I mean, there's, there's, there's so many ways that this plays out in our life, and we don't even know that it's it's impacting us in what we do, and then what we're not doing, you know, if we're not taking risks, that could actually be good for us because of this. So people would benefit from from just taking a look, because you don't know, you know where it could could help you, but I can say that it can help you across health, across finances, relationships. That's huge about you know, what you observed in your parents and how they talk to each other, and then how how you are in relationship as an adult. So in so many different really, those important areas of our lives, this type of work can really benefit. There   Michael Hingson ** 59:57 are so many things that. Happen to us, or that we become involved in in some way or another, that are really things that we chose to have happen, maybe whether we realize it or not, and it's really all about choice, and likewise, we can choose to be successful. It may not happen exactly the way we think, but it's still a matter of choice, and that is something that is so important, I think, for people to learn about and to understand that you can make choices, and it's it's all about learning. So when you make a choice, if it doesn't work out, or it doesn't work out the way you thought, and it's not a problem, or it is a problem, then you make another choice, but if we don't explore and we don't learn, we won't go anywhere, right, right? Well, this has been a lot of fun, and I hope people will go out and buy the book again. You made it up. Now stop believing it. I love the title and and I hope that people will get it. We put a picture of it in the show notes, so definitely go check it out. And I want to thank you for being here and spending the last hour plus with us. I I've enjoyed it. I've learned a lot, and I always like to learn, so that's why doing this podcast is so much fun. So thank you for that. And I want to thank you all for listening wherever you are or watching if you're on YouTube. Cathy was a little bit worried about her room isn't as neat as she maybe wanted it, so she wasn't sure whether it was going to be great to video. And I pointed out, I don't have a background or anything. Don't worry about it. The only thing I do is close my door so my cat won't come in and bother us.   1:01:41 Oh, yeah, me too, yeah. Well, stitch   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:44 is probably out there waiting, because it's getting close to one of them many times during the day that she wants to eat, and I have to pet her while she eats. So we do have our obligations in life. Yes, we do, but it's fun, but I want to thank you for being here. But thank you all, and please, wherever you're listening or watching, give us a five star review. We value it. I'd love to hear your thoughts about today and our episode. So if you would email me, I'd appreciate it. Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S o, n.com/podcast, definitely love to get your thoughts Kathy. How do people get a hold of you if they want to learn more? Or are you are you doing coaching or working with people today?   Kathi Sohn ** 1:02:37 Yes. So if you go to Kathi sohn.com, that's k, A, T, H, I, s, O, H n.com, there's a lot of information on there. You can learn more about body memory. You can get a free chapter of the book. I have a couple other free gifts on there. You can and you can learn about my coaching programs. I have private coaching and for individuals, and I love to work with parents as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:06 Well, there you go. There you go. So Kathisohn.com and I hope people will do that again. We really appreciate a five star review. And Kathy for you, and all of you out there, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, because you feel they have a story they should tell introduce us. And if they don't think they can come on and tell the story, I'll talk with them. And oftentimes I can show people why it's important that they come on and tell their story. A lot of times, people say, I don't really have anything that makes me unique or different. Well, yeah, you do the fact that you're you, but anyway, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest, we'd love to hear from you and Kathy, if you know anyone same for you. But again, I really appreciate you being here and being a part of unstoppable mindset today. So thank you very much for coming.   1:03:56 Yes, thank you for having me here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:02 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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