Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Michael West discuss the top of Mount Purgatory: The Earthly Paradise (Cantos 28-31).
Check out our WRITTEN GUIDE to the Purgatorio.
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They explore the serene, uncultivated garden where Dante encounters the mysterious Matilda picking flowers, the two rivers (Lethe, which erases the memory of sin, and Eunoe, which restores the memory of good deeds), and the elaborate apocalyptic procession featuring candelabras, elders, symbolic creatures, the griffin-drawn chariot of the Church, and dancers representing the theological and cardinal virtues. The discussion highlights Dante’s use of erotic imagery, classical allusions (Proserpina, Venus, Hero and Leander), and the communal themes running through the Commedia, while noting how Purgatorio depicts the gradual strengthening of the will through spiritual “exercise,” much like physical training.
The conversation then turns to the dramatic appearance of Beatrice in Canto 30, her stern rebuke of Dante for pursuing “shadows of false goods” after her death, and the emotional departure of Virgil, whose guidance ends as Beatrice assumes the role of divine wisdom.
They interpret Canto 31 as a sacramental confession scene in which Dante acknowledges his sins, experiences contrition while gazing at Beatrice’s eyes reflecting the dual-natured griffin (Christ), and is immersed in the River Lethe by Matilda. The hosts reflect on the limits of human reason and mentorship (Virgil), the incarnational role of beauty in leading the soul to God, the necessity of properly ordered eros, and the deeper Christian vision that Eden is not the final destination but a way station toward the beatific vision. The episode ends with anticipation for the conclusion of Purgatorio in the next installment.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ascend and the Great Books
02:19 Exploring Dante's Purgatorio: Canto 28-31
04:03 Scholarship and Themes in Dante
06:52 The Role of Community in Dante's Works
09:43 Personal Reflections on Purgatorio
12:20 The Earthly Paradise and Its Significance
14:48 Matilda: A Symbol of Beauty and Desire
17:44 The Rivers of Lethe and Eunoë
20:25 The Dichotomy of Memory in Dante's Vision
33:04 The Nature of Confession and Memory
34:32 Exploring Apocalyptic Imagery
38:08 The Role of Virtues in Spiritual Life
45:58 The Significance of the Procession
52:43 The Transition from Virgil to Beatrice
01:04:09 Virgil's Journey and Final Gift
01:05:25 The Role of Mentorship and Growth
01:07:24 The Pain of Separation from Mentors
01:08:58 Understanding Virgil's Absence
01:10:52 Beatrice's Introduction and New Guidance
01:12:22 Beatrice's Sarcasm and Wisdom
01:14:07 The Complexity of Virgil's Guidance
01:15:11 The Nature of True Goodness
01:17:04 The Pursuit of Apparent Goods
01:19:47 Beatrice as an Icon of Divine Beauty
01:21:41 The Role of Pity in Relationships
01:25:56 The Sacrament of Confession
01:27:43 The Importance of Tears and Remorse
01:33:41 The Vision of the Griffin and Christ
Good work reading the great books! Next week, we are joined by Joshua Charles and Dr. Frank Grabowski to end our journey!

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Fr. Patrick Biscoe, OP, discuss gluttony and lust in Dante's Purgatorio, Cantos 23-27.
Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for more information.
Check out our LIBRARY OF WRITTEN GUIDES for the great books.
Check out the Dominicans, the Order of Preachers.
Check out Fr. Patrick Briscoe, OP, at Godsplaining Podcast.
In this episode of Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick is joined by Dominican friar Fr. Patrick Briscoe, OP, currently serving in Rome as the Order’s General Promoter for Social Communication. The conversation opens with Fr. Patrick explaining Dominican life, the charism of preaching rooted in study and contemplation, the historical significance of Santa Sabina, and the Order’s ongoing vitality—especially through institutions like the Angelicum. The bulk of the episode then offers a close, theologically rich reading of the Purgatorio.
The hosts explore how Dante structures these sins as forms of excessive or misdirected love, placing them high on the mountain because they are less grave than pride, envy, or wrath, yet still require deep purification. Key themes include the contrapasso of emaciated souls on the gluttony terrace, the “OMO DEI” face motif symbolizing refashioning in God’s image, the role of intercessory prayer (especially Nella’s for Forese Donati), the two instructive trees, medieval embryology and hylomorphism (how airy shades appear gaunt), and the wall of flame on the lust terrace.
They highlight Dante’s nuanced treatment of lust—treating both heterosexual excess (Pasiphaë/bestiality) and sodomy as incontinence—while emphasizing the praise of chaste marriage and the enduring good of ordered eros. The episode closes powerfully with Virgil’s farewell in Canto 27, crowning Dante “lord of himself” once his will is aligned with the good, symbolizing true Christian freedom.
Throughout, the discussion weaves literary analysis with practical spiritual application—especially apt for Lent—showing Purgatorio as a map for self-mastery, image perfection, and liberation from disordered desire. Fr. Patrick and Dcn. Garlick underscore Beatrice as an icon of divine beauty and grace, whose memory motivates Dante through the flames rather than being purged away. The episode ends with an invitation to reread the text, follow the Dominicans’ work, and prepare for the Earthly Paradise cantos in the next installment.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio
07:37 The Role of Communication in the Dominican Order
13:24 Contrapasso and the Nature of Sin
18:19 The Importance of Free Will in Purgatory
24:03 The Interconnectedness of Souls
29:49 Family Dynamics in the Afterlife
35:59 Exploring Purgatory's Dynamics
39:49 Consequences of Disordered Love
43:43 Desires and Reason in Purgatory
48:39 Understanding Gluttony and Vigilance
52:13 Beatitudes and Spiritual Hunger
57:07 Gradations of the Soul
58:53 The Relationship Between Body and Soul
01:02:02 The Finality of Body and Soul Reunion
01:06:51 The Transition to Lust in Purgatory
01:08:02 Contrasting Spirits on the Mountain
01:08:30 Marian and Pagan Examples of Purity
01:09:25 The Nature of Purification in Purgatory
01:10:55 The Healing Power of Praise
01:11:41 Understanding Sexuality and Love
01:12:53 Dante's Quasi-Liturgical Procession
01:14:02 The Psychology of Lust in Purgatory
01:16:03 The Nature of Sin and Its Consequences
01:17:48 The Unnaturalness of Lust
01:19:33 The Direction of Souls in Purgatory
01:20:55 The Role of Intercessory Prayer
01:21:48 Dante's Final Challenge
01:23:11 The Role of Beatrice in Dante's Journey
01:25:38 Purification Through Love
01:27:55 The Symbolism of Eyes and Intellect
01:30:37 Virgil's Final Guidance to Dante
01:34:13 The Aim of Lent and Self-Mastery
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Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Sarah Berry of the University of Dallas discuss Acedia, Avarice, and part of Gluttony in Cantos 18-22 of the Purgatorio.
Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for more information!
Check out our GUIDE to the Purgatorio!
Dr. Sarah Berry joins Deacon Harrison Garlick to explore Cantos 18–22, covering the terrace of sloth (acedia) and the transition into avarice and prodigality. In Canto 18, Virgil delivers a pivotal discourse on love as the root of all human action, explaining that love can be misdirected (pride, envy, wrath), deficient (sloth), or excessive (avarice, gluttony, lust). Berry emphasizes the terrace’s brevity and lack of a formal prayer: “their prayers are their action... the penitents too... are doing the thing as a way of offering up some kind of prayer to God” (Dr. Sarah Berry), with running souls and examples of zeal (Mary’s haste to Elizabeth, Caesar’s swift march) countering sloth’s cooling of love.
The dream of the siren in Canto 19 warns against deceptive earthly goods, while the face-down penance on the avarice terrace forces fixation on the earth once loved excessively: “these are those who had a disordered love of money... goods that can’t be shared” (Dr. Sarah Berry).
Cantos 20–22 deepen the exploration of avarice’s societal and personal consequences. Hugh Capet’s lament in Canto 20 indicts the French dynasty’s greed and sacrilege, including the capture of Boniface VIII. Berry highlights the terrace’s broadened scope: “Dante is really broadening... our awareness of this constellation of problems” beyond mere hoarding or spending. In Canto 21, Statius is released with an earthquake and song, explaining his long purgation on sloth and avarice before moving freely upward. Canto 22 poignantly contrasts Statius (saved through Virgil’s influence and grace) with Virgil himself, who lacks faith despite his virtues. Berry notes the tragedy: “Dante is inviting us... hoping that there is some special providence for Virgil at the end of his journey through purgatory” (Dr. Sarah Berry). The cantos reveal Purgatorio’s hopeful, dynamic nature: purgation reorders love through grace, habituation, and contemplation, moving from deficient to excessive attachments, preparing the soul for divine union.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio
02:29 Exploring Dante's Purgatorio: Themes and Structure
04:30 The Importance of Purgatorio in Spiritual Growth
08:32 Understanding Love and Culpability in Purgatorio
12:00 Diving into Canto 18: The Lesson on Love
13:26 Virgil's Discourse on Love and Free Will
17:40 The Nature of Love: Ascent and Culpability
20:31 The Role of Reason in Human Actions
26:01 The Formation of Intellect and Will
33:12 Contrapasso: The Penance of Slothfulness
40:19 Examples of Zeal: Mary and Caesar
42:17 Understanding Zeal and Sloth
47:04 The Subtlety of Sin and Human Effort
52:31 Dreams and Allegory in Purgatory
01:00:27 The Nature of Prayer and Action
01:01:58 Exploring Avarice and Its Consequences
01:20:15 Exploring Dante's Inferno: Sin and Intellect
01:23:03 Wrath and Sloth: Roots of Sin in Purgatorio
01:25:23 Positive Examples: Virtue Against Avarice
01:29:30 Dante's Critique of French Dynasties
01:35:56 The Role of Statius: A New Perspective
01:50:30 Virgil's Tragic Journey: Hope for Salvation?
Keywords
Dante's Purgatorio, Sloth, Love, Virtue, Spiritual Growth, Theology, Literature, Dante, Purgatory, Christian Virtues Dante, Purgatorio, allegory, sin, virtue, divine justice, theology, Mount Purgatory, purgation, salvation

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson of Pepperdine University discuss cantos 13-17 of Dante's Purgatorio--the purging of envy and wrath.
Check out our 51 question and answer guide (35 pages!) to the Purgatorio.
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Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson joins Deacon Harrison Garlick to discuss Cantos 13–17, covering the terraces of envy (Canto 13) and wrath (Cantos 14–17), with a strong focus on the central discourses in the middle of the Comedy.
In Canto 13, the envious have their eyelids sewn shut with iron wire, a contrapasso that forces them to rely on others and recognize interdependence. Wilson explains: “envy is to look cross-eyed on another's blessings... to look askance,” and the disembodied voices proclaim examples of generosity (Cana, “I am Orestes,” “Love them from whom you’ve suffered evil”), teaching a mindset of abundance over scarcity (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). Sapia humbly confesses her envy and malice, contrasting with the divisive souls in Inferno.
Cantos 14–15 transition to wrath, with visions of meekness (Mary and Joseph seeking Jesus, a tyrant sparing a youth, Stephen forgiving his stoners) and Virgil’s discourse on goods: exhaustible earthly goods versus inexhaustible spiritual ones. Wilson notes: “envy stems from a mindset of scarcity versus Mary’s mindset of abundance... able to supply where it looks like there’s not enough in the world” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).
The pivotal Canto 16 (the exact midpoint of the Comedy) features Marco Lombardo’s sermon on free will: “If the present world has gone astray, the cause is in you, look at yourselves” (Marco via transcript). Wilson calls it “the clearest sermon that Dante has about what’s wrong with the world,” emphasizing that sin arises from misused free will, not fate or stars, and critiques the separation of temporal and spiritual powers.
Canto 17 concludes the wrath terrace with Virgil’s discourse on love as the root of all action (“Neither Creator nor creature was ever without love... natural or of the mind” – Virgil via transcript), which can be misdirected, deficient, or excessive. Wilson highlights the shift from reason to grace: “reason can’t do it alone... you need this other kind of intervention” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). The cantos underscore Purgatorio’s hopeful pedagogy: purgation reorders love through grace, habituation, and contemplation, moving from misdirected to deficient love in preparation for the excessive attachments above. Wilson stresses the urgency: “the Purgatorio shows humanity in motion, dynamic humanity... it has the immediacy... that is an urgency to it” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast
04:06 Exploring Dante's Purgatorio
07:20 The Great Books Program at Pepperdine University
10:18 The Significance of Purgatorio
13:27 Understanding Envy in Purgatorio
16:17 Contrary Virtues: Generosity and Kindness
19:22 The Role of Sight and Blindness in Envy
22:15 Dante's Moral Lessons on Envy
25:14 Comparative Analysis with Inferno
30:33 Dante's Poetic Structure and Contrapasso
32:15 Comparative Analysis of Characters in Inferno and Purgatorio
33:54 The Role of Good and Bad Examples in Moral Education
34:14 The Shift from Temporal to Eternal Mindsets
34:20 Understanding Canto 14: The Importance of Examples
39:35 Canto 15: The Inquiry into Goods and Wrath
49:58 Canto 16: The Purging of Wrath and Examples of Virtue
51:35 Ecstatic Visions and Penitent Souls
52:19 The Tyrant's Moment of Virtue
53:28 Humanity in Purgatorio
54:38 The Role of Mary in Purgatory
56:02 Saint Stephen's Example of Forgiveness
57:12 Virgil's Limitations as a Guide
59:12 The Nature of Freedom in Purgatory
01:03:07 The Importance of Canto 16
01:04:37 Understanding Freedom in Dante's Context
01:07:32 The Role of Law and Governance
01:14:39 Self-Reflection and the State of the World
01:23:48 Exploring Wrath in Purgatory
01:30:57 Understanding the Structure of Purgatory
Keywords: Dante's Purgatorio, Cantos 13-17, spiritual growth, virtues and vices, education, great books, Dante analysis Dante's Divine Comedy, Purgatory, Virtues and Vices, Free Will, Theology, Morality, Literature, Catholic Teaching, Spiritual Journey

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Garlick and Mr. Luke Heintschel, headmaster of Coeur du Christ Academy, discuss the rest of ante-purgatory and then the first terrace--the purging of pride.
Check out our GUIDE: 51 QUESTIONS ON THE PURGATORIO.
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The conversation explores the transition from Ante-Purgatory into the proper mountain of Purgatory and the first terrace dedicated to purging the sin of pride. Garlick describes this section as one of his favorites in the entire Purgatorio, praising Dante’s ability to provide a rich “liturgy” and spiritual library of resources for reshaping the soul into the beautiful image of Christ. The episode emphasizes Purgatorio as a positive map for sanctification and theosis, contrasting sharply with the Inferno’s exposure of sin’s ugliness.Guest Introduction and Classical Education Insights
Luke Heintschel shares his personal journey from evangelization and biblical theology into classical education, explaining how he came to see the liberal arts tradition—long cultivated by the Church—as the most effective means of making Catholicism relevant to contemporary young people. He describes his school’s mission of forming saints, scholars, and servants through the historic Catholic educational model. Deacon and Heintschel discuss the harmony of faith and reason, noting how reading great books alongside Scripture and theology reveals that the God who grants intellect is the same God who died on the cross. They highlight the value of using Dante’s Purgatorio in moral theology classes, where it serves not as a list of rules but as a vivid portrayal of transforming the heart’s disordered loves toward their divine end.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio
09:02 Understanding Purgatorio: A Map for Spiritual Growth
15:17 Dante's Intercessory Prayer and Its Significance
24:13 The Role of Beatrice and the Nature of Beauty
34:53 Dante's Political Critique and the State of Italy
43:05 The Call to Higher Patriotism
53:44 Understanding Virtue: Natural vs. Theological
59:35 The Valley of the Kings: Political Failures and Redemption
01:15:02 Dante's Heroism and Divine Grace
01:19:41 The Three Steps to Purification
01:28:10 The Role of Humility in Purgatory
01:51:27 The Purpose of Purification
01:59:24 Contrappasso: The Nature of Punishment in Purgatory
02:04:44 Examples of Pride: Lessons from the Past
02:16:26 The Beatitudes and the Path to Humility
02:23:47 Eagerness to Ascend: The Transformation of the Soul
Moral Theology and the Purpose of Purgatorio
The hosts stress that moral theology is not merely about avoiding sin but about becoming beautiful like Christ through active configuration to His image. Purgatorio offers a lifelong guide for this ascent, presenting prayers, hymns, scriptural examples, and artistic visions tailored to remedy each vice. They critique modern reductions of ethics to a “negative list” of prohibitions, arguing that Dante invites readers to pursue positive virtue and interior change.
In Canto 6, the souls in Ante-Purgatory eagerly seek Dante’s prayers, illustrating the Catholic doctrine of intercession for the dead as a participation in Christ’s merits. Virgil explains that purgation is possible through the resurrection, and the episode includes a brief catechesis on the communion of saints across the Church Militant, Penitent, and Triumphant. Beatrice is presented as an icon of divine beauty and grace, with the pilgrim’s desire for her serving as a ladder of ascent from earthly eros to divine charity. Dante’s political lament critiques Italy’s fractured state and absent emperor, yearning for the proper balance of temporal and spiritual powers (duo sunt).
Canto 7 introduces the Valley of the Princes—failed rulers delayed for neglecting their Christian vocation—while the night rule underscores that ascent requires God’s grace (symbolized by the sun). The princes sing Salve Regina, submitting to the true Queen, Mary.
Cantos 8–9: Nighttime Vigil, Dream, and Entry into Purgatory
Canto 8 features angels driving off the serpent of temptation in a repeated catechetical drama, while the souls sing Te lucis ante terminum to entrust the night to God.
In Canto 9, St. Lucy (meaning “light”) carries the sleeping Dante upward, emphasizing that grace, not human effort, enables ascent. The three steps to the Gate of Purgatory symbolize self-knowledge (polished white marble), contrition (cracked dark stone), and penance (fiery red porphyry). An angel inscribes seven P’s (peccata, sins) on Dante’s forehead and uses the keys of Peter—commanded to err on the side of mercy—to open the gate, accompanied by the Te Deum.
Cantos 10–12: The First Terrace – Purging Pride
The first terrace features marble reliefs of humility: the Annunciation (Mary’s fiat), David dancing before the Ark, and Emperor Trajan aiding a widow. These Christian and pagan examples of the contrary virtue counter pride. The proud souls carry massive boulders that force them to bow low, habituating humility through a purifying contrapasso. The ground displays carved examples of pride’s fall—Lucifer, the Tower of Babel, Niobe, Saul, Arachne, Rehoboam, and others—often alternating biblical and classical stories to show pride’s universal danger. The souls recite an expanded Our Father, praying intercessorily for those on earth, and the Beatitude “Blessed are the poor in spirit” is sung sweetly. As pride is purged, an angel removes one P, the soul grows eager and light-footed, and Virgil laughs—a rare moment of joy signaling progress in the ascent.Closing and Next Steps
Deacon thanks Heintschel for his insights and reminds listeners that Purgatorio functions as both literary masterpiece and practical spiritual guide.
The next episode will cover Cantos 13–17 (envy and wrath) with Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson of Pepperdine University.
Keywords
Dante's Purgatorio, Christian Virtues, Intercessory Prayer, Classical Education, Theology, Morality, Politics, Dante's Guide, Beatrice, Virgil Dante's Purgatorio, humility, pride, spiritual journey, classical analogies, biblical themes, liturgical imagery, virtue, contrapasso, purgation