Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

Episode 517: How a Bloody Trauma Case Cured My Lifelong Blood Phobia
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
Episode Summary
Can your greatest fear become one of your greatest strengths?
In this deeply personal episode, Dr. David Burns shares the remarkable true story of how a severe lifelong blood phobia nearly ended his medical career—and how one unforgettable day in the emergency room transformed that fear forever.
David recounts his unconventional path to becoming a psychiatrist, including almost dropping out of medical school, taking years away from medicine, living without money while trying to create a life centered around helping others, and eventually finding his way back to psychiatry through a residency at Highland Hospital in Oakland.
On his very first day in the emergency department, David was confronted with what seemed like his worst nightmare: a critically injured bombing victim covered in blood. Unable to avoid the situation, he was asked to help clean gunpowder from the patient's wounds. What began as overwhelming terror became an unexpected turning point that permanently erased his blood phobia—and ultimately shaped his career treating anxiety disorders.
Along the way, David and Kevin explore why exposure is one of the most powerful treatments for anxiety, why motivation is essential for lasting change, and why courage doesn't require the absence of fear.
This inspiring conversation is a reminder that the experiences we most want to avoid can sometimes become the doorway to profound growth.
In This Episode
Why David never intended to become a physician—and almost quit medical school.
The childhood experiences that contributed to his lifelong blood phobia.
How avoiding feared situations keeps anxiety alive.
The extraordinary trauma case that unexpectedly became David's own exposure therapy.
The surprising moment his fear disappeared completely.
David's concept of the "200% cure"—when something you once feared becomes something you genuinely enjoy.
Why therapists sometimes avoid using exposure therapy, even though it is one of the most effective anxiety treatments.
Why motivation often determines whether people are able to face their fears.
The role of acceptance and willingness during exposure.
A moving reunion with Highland Hospital decades later through the surgeon who recently performed David's successful colon surgery.
Key Takeaways
Exposure works because avoidance keeps fear alive.
The natural impulse is to escape what frightens us. Unfortunately, every act of avoidance teaches the brain that the feared situation is dangerous.
When we stay in the feared situation long enough, anxiety eventually peaks and then naturally declines. The feared catastrophe rarely occurs, and our confidence grows.
Courage means acting while you're afraid.
Kevin highlights an important distinction:
You don't have to eliminate fear before taking action.
Real courage is moving forward even while your anxiety feels overwhelming. David's anxiety remained at a 100 out of 100 for nearly fifteen minutes before it suddenly dissolved.
Anxiety cannot remain at its peak forever.
One of the biggest misconceptions about anxiety is the belief that once it starts, it will continue indefinitely.
In reality, anxiety naturally rises and falls. If we stop escaping and allow ourselves to experience it, it eventually loses its power.
Motivation makes exposure possible.
For years David simply avoided blood.
Everything changed because he had something more important than avoiding fear: he wanted to become a psychiatrist.
Having a compelling reason to face anxiety often makes difficult exposure exercises possible.
Sometimes fear transforms into enthusiasm.
David describes what he calls the "200% cure."
A 100% cure means you're no longer afraid.
A 200% cure means you actually enjoy doing the very thing you once feared.
Many people who overcome fears discover new passions that once seemed impossible.
Therapists can become afraid of their patients' anxiety.
Kevin and David discuss an important obstacle in treatment: therapists themselves sometimes avoid exposure because they're afraid it will overwhelm the client.
Ironically, protecting people from anxiety often prolongs suffering. Learning that anxiety is uncomfortable—but not dangerous—is one of the most healing discoveries patients can make.
Exposure requires willingness, not comfort.
The goal is never to feel relaxed before confronting a fear.
The goal is to become willing to experience anxiety while pursuing what matters.
Memorable Quotes
"When you confront the thing you're afraid of, you discover that the monster has no teeth."
"You don't have to be a hero. You just have to make the decision to do it."
"The 100% cure is you're no longer afraid. The 200% cure is that you love doing the thing you were once afraid of."
"The real harm is believing that anxiety itself is dangerous."
Resources Mentioned
Dr. David Burns' accompanying Psychology Today article, "How a Bloody Trauma Case Cured My Lifelong Blood Phobia."
TEAM-CBT and exposure techniques for treating anxiety disorders.
If You Enjoyed This Episode
If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe to The Feeling Good Podcast, leave a rating or review, and share this episode with someone who struggles with anxiety or avoidance. Your support helps more people discover practical, evidence-based tools for overcoming fear and building happier lives.
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

The Man Who Was Fired Five Times
How Letting Go of Blame Can Transform Your Life
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
What if the biggest obstacle to your happiness isn't your depression, your anxiety, or even the difficult people around you?
What if it's the belief that everyone else needs to change first?
In this powerful episode of the Feeling Good Podcast, Dr. David Burns and host Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, discuss one of David's favorite therapy stories from his recent Psychology Today article, "The Man Who Was Fired Five Times." What begins as the story of a brilliant computer programmer who can't keep a job becomes an unforgettable lesson in overcoming resistance, building meaningful relationships, and discovering the extraordinary power of humility.
This episode is packed with practical TEAM-CBT techniques, fascinating therapy demonstrations, and one of the most inspiring recovery stories you'll ever hear.
In This Episode
A Brilliant Man Who Couldn't Keep a Job
David introduces us to "Bhagwant" (a pseudonym), an exceptionally gifted computer programmer who sought treatment after being fired five times in just two years.
Although he initially came to therapy complaining of low self-esteem, David quickly noticed something much deeper.
Bhagwant believed:
His coworkers were conspiring against him.
His bosses failed to appreciate his intelligence.
Other people were the source of nearly all his suffering.
Despite his obvious brilliance, his habit of blaming others had become the greatest obstacle to both his career and his happiness.
Why David Didn't Try to Help Him...At First
Instead of immediately offering therapy techniques, David did something surprising.
He told Bhagwant that perhaps they shouldn't work together.
Why?
Because therapy would require Bhagwant—not his coworkers—to do all of the changing.
Rather than arguing with Bhagwant or trying to convince him he was wrong, David used one of the most powerful TEAM-CBT methods:
Dangling the Carrot
By joining Bhagwant's resistance instead of fighting it, David completely changed the emotional dynamic.
Instead of saying:
"You're the problem."
He essentially said:
"You're right—it seems terribly unfair that you'd have to do all the work when everyone else is causing the problem."
That paradoxical response immediately dissolved Bhagwant's resistance.
Moments later, he admitted something he had hidden from David:
He hadn't merely been placed on probation.
He had already been fired—for the fifth time.
Why Specificity Matters
One of the central themes of the episode is David's insistence on working with specific moments instead of vague labels.
Rather than treating "low self-esteem" as the problem, David asks:
What happened?
Where were you?
What time was it?
What exactly were you thinking?
This "fractal" approach allows therapy to target the real thoughts creating emotional suffering instead of treating abstract diagnostic labels.
As David explains, problems can only be solved when they're connected to a real moment in time.
Recovery Begins with Practice
Once Bhagwant committed fully to treatment, he became an extraordinarily dedicated student of TEAM-CBT.
He learned to:
Identify cognitive distortions
Challenge negative thoughts using Externalization of Voices
Master the Five Secrets of Effective Communication
Replace defensiveness with curiosity and empathy
At one point, David actually had to limit Bhagwant's therapy homework because he was spending six to eight hours a day practicing.
The Job Interview That Changed Everything
Eventually Bhagwant received a job offer from a company in Florida.
David gave him one final piece of surprising advice:
Ask your new employer to agree to criticize you every single week.
Specifically, David suggested requesting regular meetings where supervisors would openly point out mistakes so Bhagwant could practice using the Five Secrets and the Disarming Technique.
The company agreed.
The results were astonishing.
Within weeks:
He had developed excellent relationships with coworkers.
He won Employee of the Month.
He received multiple promotions.
His salary doubled.
Years later, David received a Christmas card that brought tears to his eyes.
Bhagwant had become CEO of the very company that hired him.
The Disarming Technique
Much of the second half of the episode explores one of the most challenging—and most transformative—TEAM-CBT skills.
What Is Disarming?
Disarming means sincerely finding the truth in criticism, even when the criticism seems exaggerated or unfair.
David explains what he calls the Law of Opposites:
Defending yourself often convinces others the criticism is true.
Agreeing sincerely with whatever truth exists often causes the criticism to lose its power.
This simple paradox can dramatically transform difficult conversations.
Live Role-Playing
Kevin and David demonstrate the Disarming Technique through several live role plays.
David criticizes Kevin as being:
Fake
Inexperienced
Pretending to know more than he really does
Kevin practices agreeing with the truth in the criticism instead of defending himself.
David then coaches Kevin to go even deeper—not by problem-solving or trying to improve himself immediately, but by becoming genuinely curious about the other person's experience.
Later, the roles reverse, and Kevin criticizes David for being:
Cranky
Impatient
Insensitive
David demonstrates how quickly criticism melts away when someone responds with humility, openness, and genuine curiosity.
These demonstrations beautifully illustrate why the Disarming Technique is often one of the hardest TEAM-CBT skills to master—and one of the most powerful.
Why Resistance Matters
Throughout the episode, David explains that resistance is not an obstacle to therapy.
It's the doorway into effective therapy.
Rather than pushing people toward change, TEAM-CBT first helps people understand why changing feels difficult.
Once resistance melts away, motivation naturally appears.
Enlightenment and the "Death of the Self"
The conversation concludes with a reflection on one of David's favorite philosophical themes.
Drawing from Buddhist psychology, David discusses how learning to accept criticism requires what he calls "the death of the self"—letting go of pride, defensiveness, and the constant need to protect one's ego.
Rather than seeing criticism as an attack, we can learn to experience it as an opportunity for connection, growth, and deeper understanding.
Resource Mentioned
Dr. David Burns' Psychology Today article: "The Man Who Was Fired Five Times"
Memorable Takeaways
The biggest obstacle to change is often our resistance—not our symptoms.
Therapy becomes far more effective when it focuses on one specific moment instead of broad labels.
Defending yourself usually strengthens criticism; finding the truth in it often dissolves conflict.
Humility builds stronger relationships than winning arguments.
Learning to respond differently to criticism can transform not only your mood, but your career, your relationships, and your entire life.
Whether you're a therapist, a parent, a leader, or simply someone who wants healthier relationships, this episode offers practical tools and inspiring hope that lasting change is possible—even after years of frustration and failure.
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Episode 515: Ask David

Parenting Meltdowns, Real-Time TEAM-CBT, and When Negative Thoughts Won't Stop
What do you do when your child has a public meltdown—and you feel your own frustration rising just as quickly?
And what if your mind feels so overwhelmed with anxious or depressive thoughts that completing a Daily Mood Log seems impossible?
In this Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns is joined by host Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and Psychiatrist/TEAM-CBT therapist Dr. Matt May to answer two thoughtful listener questions that many parents and therapy enthusiasts will recognize. Together, they demonstrate TEAM-CBT techniques live, showing not only what to do, but how to think differently in the moment.
Along the way, they explore why changing your relationship with your own thoughts is often more important than trying to control other people's behavior.
In This Episode
Question 1: How Do I Use TEAM-CBT in Real Time When My Child Has a Meltdown?
A listener describes taking his two young sons to the driving range when one child suddenly wants to leave while the other wants to stay. As frustration mounts, so do the automatic thoughts:
"He's being a brat."
"He's too immature for this."
"He's ungrateful and whines all the time."
Although the listener can challenge these thoughts later using a Daily Mood Log, he wonders:
How can I use TEAM-CBT in the middle of an emotionally charged parenting moment?
David, Kevin, and Matt explore this question through several live demonstrations.
Topics Include:
Why self-compassion comes before effective parenting
The danger of "should" statements directed at yourself
How beating yourself up actually makes it harder to respond compassionately
Why practice outside emotional moments prepares you for success inside emotional moments
Accepting your own imperfections as a parent
Matt demonstrates how to respond to his own inner critic using Externalization of Voices, replacing self-criticism with realistic self-acceptance instead of perfectionism.
Challenging "Shoulds" About Other People
The conversation then shifts to another common trap: Trying to make other people different than they are.
Together they examine several automatic thoughts parents commonly experience:
"He's being a brat."
"He's too immature."
"He's ungrateful."
David helps Matt and Kevin identify the cognitive distortions hiding inside these thoughts, including:
Labeling
Hidden should statements
Unrealistic expectations
Blaming
Rather than arguing intellectually, they demonstrate TEAM-CBT methods such as:
Acceptance Paradox
Self-Defense
Counterattack
Externalization of Voices
The discussion highlights an important insight:
Much of our emotional suffering comes not from other people's behavior—but from insisting they should be different than they are.
Kevin shares a personal story about using the Feeling Great app's Paradoxical Magnification exercise to dissolve his own "should" statements about parenting through humor and acceptance.
Question 2: What If My Mind Never Stops Producing Negative Thoughts?
The second listener has struggled with depression and anxiety since adolescence.
Although he believes in TEAM-CBT, he finds the Daily Mood Log overwhelming because his mind produces what feels like hundreds of negative thoughts every minute.
His questions include:
How long should I spend on a Daily Mood Log?
Do I need to answer every negative thought?
Why can't I create positive thoughts that actually feel believable?
David's Advice
Dr. Burns explains that:
10–20 minutes of Daily Mood Log work is usually enough.
You do not need to answer every negative thought.
Most automatic thoughts are simply variations of a handful of core beliefs.
Consistent practice matters much more than perfection.
Using his own recovery after recent surgery as an example, David reminds listeners that small, steady efforts often produce remarkable long-term change.
Helpful TEAM-CBT Strategies Discussed
Kevin describes how simply sitting down with the Daily Mood Log often quiets his racing mind and helps him focus on what truly matters.
David recommends another powerful exercise:
Negative Practice
Instead of fighting racing thoughts:
Schedule a few minutes.
Record every negative thought without challenging them.
Then listen back to the recording.
Many people discover that simply hearing their thoughts aloud changes their relationship to them.
Matt also emphasizes several uncovering techniques that help identify the deeper beliefs generating so many automatic thoughts, including:
The What-If Technique
Individual Downward Arrow
Cost-Benefit Analysis
Positive Reframing
Rather than trying to "think positively," TEAM-CBT first helps eliminate the hidden resistance that makes positive thoughts difficult to believe.
A Quick Speed Round
Near the end of the episode, David introduces a new experiment:
Rapid-fire Ask David answers.
In just thirty seconds, he explains one of the central concepts from Feeling Great:
The Four Deaths of the Self
The death of the Special Self (depression)
The death of the Fearful Self (anxiety)
The death of the Angry, Blaming Self (relationship conflict)
The death of the Entitled Pleasure-Seeking Self (habits and addictions)
David explains that each "death" ultimately reveals something surprising:
There was never anything essential to lose—only freedom to gain.
Listener Feedback
The team asks for your input:
Would you rather hear:
Longer, in-depth discussions of just a few questions?
Faster "speed round" answers covering many listener questions?
Let them know through this week's listener survey.
Resources Mentioned
Feeling Great by Dr. David Burns
The Feeling Great App
Episode 507: Mastering the Daily Mood Log: Small Details, Life-Changing Results
Daily Mood Log
Memorable Takeaways
Self-compassion is often the first step toward becoming the parent you want to be.
Your emotional suffering usually comes from your thoughts—not from other people's behavior.
You don't need to defeat every negative thought to feel dramatically better.
Practice emotional skills when you're calm so they're available when emotions run high.
Small, consistent Daily Mood Log work can create profound change over time.
As always, thank you for listening to the Feeling Good Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and send us your questions—you just might hear them discussed on a future Ask David episode.
Contact Information
You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

514: Ask David w/ Dr. Matt May
Schizophrenia, Resistance, TEAM's Future, and What Makes a Great Therapist
In this thought-provoking Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns is joined by Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and special guest Dr. Matt May, psychiatrist, TEAM-CBT therapist, and longtime colleague of Dr. Burns. Together, they tackle challenging listener questions about schizophrenia, emotional suffering, resistance to change, therapist training, and the future of psychotherapy.
Along the way, the conversation becomes deeply personal as David reflects on the qualities that shaped the development of TEAM-CBT, his hopes and concerns for the future of psychotherapy, and the lessons he's learned after decades of clinical work.
Our Special Guest: Dr. Matt May
Kevin welcomes Dr. Matt May back to the podcast. Matt is a psychiatrist trained at Stanford who has worked closely with David for more than twenty years. Although trained in psychiatry, Matt explains that his work today focuses almost entirely on TEAM-CBT rather than medication management.
David praises Matt as one of the most gifted therapists he has ever known, highlighting his warmth, compassion, humility, and clinical expertise.
Question #1: Can TEAM-CBT Help the Negative Symptoms of Schizophrenia?
A listener asks whether TEAM-CBT can help with the so-called "three A's" of schizophrenia:
Apathy
Avolition (severe lack of motivation)
Anhedonia (loss of pleasure)
or whether medication is the primary treatment.
David's Response
David challenges the assumptions behind the question itself.
Rather than viewing people through the lens of diagnostic labels and symptoms, he emphasizes that TEAM-CBT begins by asking:
"What would you like help with?"
He argues that therapists often fall into the trap of acting like experts who believe they already know what a patient needs based on a diagnosis. TEAM-CBT takes the opposite approach, focusing on the individual person's goals, struggles, and hopes.
David shares an early experience treating a patient with schizophrenia. Initially, he tried to challenge the patient's delusional beliefs directly through cognitive techniques. When the patient simply reinterpreted the evidence to support the delusion, David realized he was pursuing his own agenda rather than the patient's.
The lesson:
TEAM-CBT focuses on helping people with the problems they want help with—not on treating diagnostic labels.
Key Takeaways
Diagnosis does not define the person.
People with schizophrenia may still want help with relationships, mood, habits, goals, or self-esteem.
Effective therapy begins with understanding what matters to the individual.
Humility is often more helpful than expertise.
Question #2: What About Trauma, Brain Circuits, and "Underlying Vulnerabilities"?
A listener asks whether present-moment thoughts are only part of the picture and whether deeper emotional circuitry, stress physiology, or network-level brain changes also contribute to emotional suffering.
The listener also wonders whether cognitive therapy truly processes emotions like grief, fear, shame, and anger—or merely suppresses them.
Matt's Perspective
Matt offers a practical example from his own life.
One afternoon he found himself flooded with depressive thoughts and self-critical feelings. He suddenly felt hopeless, inadequate, and discouraged.
Then he realized:
He had skipped lunch and was extremely hungry.
After eating, the negative thoughts disappeared.
His point is that physical states matter. Sleep deprivation, poor nutrition, illness, intoxication, and other biological factors can influence how easily negative thoughts arise and how difficult they are to challenge.
David's Perspective
David distinguishes sharply between:
Healthy negative emotions
Distorted emotional suffering
He revisits a story from his medical school years, describing the death of a beloved elderly patient whose family gathered around him during his final moments.
Everyone cried.
David cried too.
But that sadness was not depression.
The grief emerged naturally from loving thoughts and genuine loss.
In contrast, depression is fueled by distorted thoughts such as:
"I'm worthless."
"I'm not good enough."
"Things will never get better."
TEAM-CBT seeks to eliminate distorted suffering while preserving healthy human emotions.
Key Takeaways
Healthy grief is not a disorder.
TEAM-CBT does not suppress genuine emotions.
Depression, anxiety, shame, and hopelessness often arise from distorted thoughts that can be transformed.
Biological factors matter, but thoughts remain a powerful therapeutic target.
Question #3: What's the Biggest Misunderstanding Therapists Have About TEAM-CBT?
A listener asks:
When teaching clinicians, what misunderstanding should be corrected first?
The belief that resistance means the patient is difficult?
Or the belief that techniques alone are enough?
David's Answer
David emphasizes that TEAM is a system:
Testing → Empathy → Agenda Setting → Methods
Many therapists focus immediately on techniques and interventions.
But before methods can work:
The therapist must develop genuine empathy.
The therapist must uncover resistance to change.
Without empathy, patients don't feel understood.
Without addressing resistance, therapists often end up arguing with their patients.
David explains that people usually have many good reasons not to change. TEAM-CBT helps bring those reasons into awareness and resolve them before attempting intervention.
Matt's Answer
Matt reflects on his own training with David.
He recalls spending countless hours learning empathy and discovering how difficult it is not to jump in with advice, reassurance, or premature solutions.
According to Matt:
Most therapists are tempted to help too quickly.
Many accidentally create resistance by pushing for change.
Understanding resistance is often one of the most challenging skills to master.
Kevin's Perspective
Kevin notes that TEAM itself naturally provides the roadmap:
First learn testing.
Then learn empathy.
Then learn agenda setting.
Only afterward focus on methods.
The sequence protects therapists from moving too quickly into problem-solving.
Question #4: What Is the Future of TEAM-CBT?
A listener named Vlad writes a heartfelt letter reflecting on the transition from Rhonda Barovsky's co-hosting role and asking:
What is the future of TEAM-CBT?
How might it evolve?
What personal qualities allowed David to create such an influential therapeutic framework?
David on the Future of TEAM
David explains that much of his current work focuses on preserving and sharing TEAM-CBT for future generations.
Examples include:
Recorded therapy sessions
Training materials
His psychotherapy eBook
Psychology Today articles
The Feeling Good Podcast
The Feeling Great app
He hopes future therapists will continue refining, expanding, and improving the methods.
At the same time, David expresses disappointment that many mental health professionals have shown limited interest in approaches that emphasize rapid, measurable change.
He remains committed to the possibility that therapy can become far more effective than it is today.
The Personal Qualities Behind TEAM-CBT
Matt identifies several characteristics he believes contributed to David's success:
Intense Curiosity
David never accepted conventional wisdom simply because others believed it.
He continually asked:
"What actually works?"
Intellectual Honesty
David consistently measures outcomes and learns from failures rather than defending cherished theories.
Humility
Rather than seeing himself as the expert, David allows patients to become his teachers.
Compassion
According to Matt, David's genuine concern for human suffering gives life to the science.
Grit and Persistence
David spent decades refining techniques, collecting data, developing tools, and challenging accepted assumptions.
Discussion of AI and the Future of Therapy
The conversation also touches on the Feeling Great app and artificial intelligence.
David explains that the app was designed to deliver many TEAM-CBT principles to people who might not otherwise have access to therapy.
He remains hopeful that technology can help make effective treatment more widely available while preserving the human values at the heart of psychotherapy.
Memorable Themes from This Episode
People are more important than diagnoses.
Healthy sadness is different from depression.
Empathy comes before technique.
Resistance is not a problem—it is information.
Great therapists remain curious and humble.
Real innovation begins with measuring outcomes.
Compassion and science work best together.
Resources Mentioned
Feeling Great App
Psychology Today articles by David Burns
Episode 49 featuring Marilyn's transformational session
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Grandma's Snake Phobia
The Real Cause of Her Anxiety
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
What if anxiety isn't the problem?
What if anxiety is actually a message?
In this fascinating episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius explore one of the most intriguing concepts in TEAM-CBT: the Hidden Emotion Technique. Using the memorable case of "Grandma's Snake Phobia," David explains why some forms of anxiety persist despite cognitive techniques, exposure exercises, and logical reassurance—and how uncovering an unrecognized emotional truth can sometimes lead to astonishingly rapid recovery.
David shares the story of an elderly woman who suddenly developed a crippling fear of snakes despite spending her entire life comfortably around them. While most therapists might have focused on treating the phobia itself, David suspected that the anxiety was serving another purpose entirely.
As the conversation unfolds, listeners learn how anxiety can function as a symbolic message from the subconscious mind, drawing attention to feelings, needs, conflicts, or desires that have been pushed out of awareness.
David also shares the remarkable story of the patient whose panic attacks and nausea at work led him to first discover the Hidden Emotion Technique, as well as a deeply personal story involving his own struggle with anxiety and professional conflict.
Along the way, David and Kevin discuss why highly anxious people are often some of the kindest and most compassionate individuals, how "niceness" can sometimes fuel anxiety, and why learning to honor our feelings may be one of the most important steps toward recovery.
In This Episode
Why traditional cognitive and behavioral approaches sometimes only partially relieve anxiety
The origins of the Hidden Emotion Technique
The surprising connection between anxiety and excessive "niceness"
Why anxiety may be a symbolic message rather than a malfunction
The case of Grandma's sudden snake phobia
How unspoken fears about aging and dependence fueled anxiety
Why simply becoming aware of a hidden emotion is not enough
The critical action step that completes the Hidden Emotion Technique
The story of the young woman whose job was literally making her sick
How suppressed dreams and unexpressed desires can trigger anxiety symptoms
David's personal experience discovering a hidden source of anxiety in his own life
The role of conflict avoidance, people-pleasing, and "emotophobia"
Why the hidden emotion is almost always happening in the present—not buried in childhood
How anxious symptoms often function as symbolic clues to what's really wrong
Practical ways to begin exploring hidden emotions in your own life
Key Insights from David
"Anxiety is our subconscious mind trying to get our attention and tell us something important that our conscious minds can't seem to see."
"The ultimate fear in anxiety is often the fear of your own feelings."
"Only nice people develop anxiety disorders."
"The hidden emotion isn't the fear itself. The fear is conscious. The hidden emotion is the feeling you believe you're not supposed to have."
"Anxiety never comes out of the blue. It comes from our lives and our hearts."
The Hidden Emotion Technique: Two Essential Steps
Step 1: Discover the Hidden Emotion
Identify the feeling, desire, conflict, or unmet need that has been pushed out of conscious awareness.
Common examples include:
Anger that feels unacceptable
Unexpressed disappointment
A desire you feel guilty about wanting
Conflict you're avoiding
A dream you've abandoned
A need you're afraid to ask for
Step 2: Take Action
Recovery occurs when you:
Express the avoided feeling honestly
Address the underlying problem directly
Have the difficult conversation you've been avoiding
Honor the need or dream you've been neglecting
As David emphasizes, insight alone rarely eliminates anxiety. The transformation occurs when awareness is followed by action.
Why "Nice" People Often Struggle with Anxiety
David describes a pattern he has observed repeatedly throughout his career:
Many anxious individuals:
Want everyone to be happy
Avoid conflict at all costs
Feel responsible for others' feelings
Believe they should never feel angry
Fear disappointing people
Suppress their own needs and desires
When these feelings remain hidden, anxiety can emerge as a signal that something important needs attention.
Questions for Reflection
Is there something important you're not telling someone?
Are you avoiding a conflict because you don't want to upset anyone?
Have you been ignoring a dream, desire, or need that matters deeply to you?
Do your anxiety symptoms seem symbolic in any way?
Is there a feeling you've decided you're "not supposed" to have?
Resources Mentioned
Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns
When Panic Attacks by David Burns
David's recent Psychology Today article, "Grandma's Snake Phobia: The Real Cause of Her Anxiety"
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!