Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

Ask David: Halloween Edition
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
Guest: Dr. Matt May
What is the meaning of life? Why do we suffer? Does the universe have a consciousness of its own? And could artificial intelligence eventually replace humanity?
These aren't exactly your typical psychotherapy questions. But in this delightfully unusual—and occasionally spooky—episode of the Feeling Good Podcast, we tackle some of the biggest mysteries of human existence, along with some surprisingly practical questions about overcoming depression and anxiety.
It's another Ask David episode, where listeners bring their questions and David, Matt, and Kevin offer their perspectives, clinical insights, and plenty of humor.
Along the way, the conversation takes some unexpected turns, from religious doubt and the nature of consciousness to David's strange encounters with artificial intelligence. And the trio tackles a particularly provocative question: Are exercise, nutrition, sleep, and other healthy habits really effective treatments for depression, or are we overlooking something far more important?
Question #1: Should We Address Resistance Before Identifying Cognitive Distortions?
The episode begins with a thoughtful question from Farida, who has been studying the Daily Mojo exercise in David's book Feeling Great.
Farida wonders whether identifying cognitive distortions should come after addressing resistance to change, rather than before it.
David explains that either sequence can work, depending on the person and the situation. However, with the development of the powerful TEAM-CBT technique called Explain the Distortions, he generally favors addressing resistance before introducing more intensive cognitive methods.
Matt adds an important distinction: Identifying distortions early can be useful simply to make sure that a negative thought is a good target for cognitive therapy. But attempting to change the thought before resolving resistance may lead to frustration and ineffective treatment.
Kevin reflects on how this answer challenges his own tendency to follow a rigid sequence, reminding listeners that effective therapy requires both structure and flexibility.
The discussion highlights one of the central principles of TEAM-CBT: Before trying to change how someone thinks or feels, it's important to understand the positive reasons they may not want to change.
Question #2: Can I Find Peace When I'm Struggling With Religious Doubts?
The next question comes from Jane, a 22-year-old Muslim woman who has struggled with anxiety and depression for nearly a decade.
Jane describes painful questions about her faith, the purpose of human existence, religious obligations, suffering, and the afterlife. Although she deeply values her religion, she sometimes fears that even asking certain questions might displease Allah.
Her deepest wish isn't necessarily to resolve every theological mystery. She simply wants relief from her emotional suffering and hopes to experience peace and happiness again.
Matt considers whether Jane's struggles might involve religious obsessions, sometimes called scrupulosity, or hidden emotions that have not yet been identified. He also suggests that certain painful thoughts may contain hidden "should" statements, such as the belief that she shouldn't have to suffer.
Kevin emphasizes the positive qualities reflected in Jane's questions: her sincerity, intellectual curiosity, desire for truth, and commitment to her values. He suggests exploring what her anxiety and doubts reveal about the things she cares about most.
David offers a different perspective, drawing on his decades of clinical experience. He explains that he has not found emotional recovery to be incompatible with religious faith. In fact, he describes patients who have experienced a deeper appreciation of their spiritual beliefs after overcoming depression or anxiety.
But David also makes a practical request: Rather than trying to solve enormous metaphysical questions, he encourages Jane to identify one specific moment when she felt upset.
What was happening? What was she telling herself? What emotions was she experiencing?
David explains how examining even a brief, emotionally painful moment with a Daily Mood Log can reveal the thoughts contributing to suffering and provide a starting point for change.
The conversation then takes an unexpected philosophical turn when David shares a beautiful idea he once heard from an astrophysicist: Perhaps the universe created conscious beings so that it could observe itself.
And from there, things get a little darker as David speculates about artificial intelligence, human evolution, and whether humanity might eventually be replaced by a new form of intelligence.
Question #3: Why Does Consciousness Exist?
Listener Brittany asks one of the most fascinating questions of the episode:
Is there a purpose to humans and animals having consciousness?
Matt introduces the philosophical hard problem of consciousness: Why do we have subjective experiences at all? Why does it feel like something to be alive, rather than simply processing information like a machine?
He describes the thought experiment of a "philosophical zombie," a hypothetical being that behaves exactly like a human but has no inner conscious experience.
David wonders whether consciousness is something created by the brain or whether it might be an inherent property of the universe itself.
He shares unusual personal experiences that have shaped his thinking, including moments of heightened awareness of suffering and interconnectedness.
Kevin offers another perspective: Consciousness allows us to experience not only joy, wonder, and love, but also sadness, fear, and pain. Perhaps those uncomfortable emotions are an essential and valuable part of being alive.
The conversation eventually turns to artificial intelligence. Could AI ever become conscious? Could it experience emotions or suffering?
David shares some amusing—and slightly unsettling—experiences working with AI while preparing a complicated statistical research paper. He describes how the AI sometimes appears to withdraw from conversations after he criticizes its work, leading him to jokingly wonder whether it has developed hurt feelings and passive-aggressive tendencies.
The trio acknowledges that these behaviors raise intriguing questions but don't establish that AI actually possesses consciousness.
In the end, Brittany's question remains unresolved. But perhaps that's part of what makes it so fascinating.
Question #4: Are Diet, Exercise, Sleep, and Supplements Effective Treatments for Depression?
The final listener question brings the conversation back to psychotherapy, with a particularly controversial challenge.
Should therapists devote substantial time to improving patients' diet, exercise, sleep, social lives, vitamin levels, and other lifestyle factors? Or is changing distorted thinking the most important ingredient in recovery from depression and anxiety?
David takes a strong position.
In his clinical approach, he argues that two factors are central to recovery: identifying and changing the distorted thoughts that create emotional suffering, and overcoming resistance to change.
He expresses skepticism about claims that exercise, dietary changes, vitamins, and other lifestyle interventions are powerful treatments for depression and anxiety.
Matt illustrates David's argument with a hypothetical example: Imagine someone who exercises regularly, eats perfectly, sleeps well, and enjoys excellent physical health, but remains convinced that they're worthless and deserve to suffer.
Would their healthy lifestyle necessarily protect them from depression?
Kevin adds an important distinction. Healthy habits can be tremendously valuable for physical health and overall well-being. However, he questions whether those benefits necessarily explain recovery from depression.
He also points out how easily people who are suffering can become attracted to charismatic experts promising simple solutions through supplements, exercise routines, or other interventions.
The discussion raises broader questions about the mental health industry, including the financial incentives that may encourage therapists to prolong treatment rather than help patients become independent.
David emphasizes his goal of making psychotherapy faster, more effective, and more accessible. He describes his commitment to offering free therapy demonstrations, teaching, and relapse prevention support.
Matt observes that one of the bittersweet realities of successful therapy is that patients may no longer need their therapists.
And David agrees. Helping patients become independent is precisely the goal—even if saying goodbye can sometimes feel a little sad.
The discussion reflects the speakers' clinical perspectives. Research also supports roles for exercise, sleep interventions, and other approaches in mental health care, and these should not be viewed as universally ineffective or as substitutes for indicated medical treatment.
Key Takeaways
Addressing resistance can make cognitive therapy more effective. Before challenging negative thoughts, it can be helpful to explore the positive values and motivations that make someone reluctant to change.
Religious faith and emotional recovery need not be in conflict. Questions about religion, meaning, and suffering can be explored with empathy while respecting a person's deeply held beliefs.
Specificity is a powerful therapeutic tool. Rather than trying to solve every existential question, identifying one particular upsetting moment can help reveal the thoughts and feelings contributing to emotional distress.
Our negative emotions can reflect positive values. Anxiety, guilt, sadness, and doubt may reveal qualities such as compassion, responsibility, sincerity, and a desire to do what's right.
Consciousness remains one of life's great mysteries. Whether consciousness emerges from the brain, serves an evolutionary purpose, or reflects something more fundamental about the universe remains an open philosophical and scientific question.
AI raises fascinating questions about the nature of intelligence and consciousness. Humanlike behavior from artificial intelligence doesn't necessarily demonstrate subjective experience, but it invites us to examine what consciousness actually means.
David emphasizes the central role of distorted thinking in depression and anxiety. He argues that changing painful beliefs and overcoming resistance can produce dramatic emotional improvement, while expressing skepticism about lifestyle interventions as direct treatments.
The goal of psychotherapy is independence. Effective therapy should equip people with skills they can use throughout their lives, rather than creating an ongoing dependence on their therapists.
Final Thoughts
From the meaning of existence to the mechanics of emotional recovery, this episode reminds us that some questions may never have definitive answers, while others can become surprisingly manageable when we examine our thoughts more closely.
We may not solve the mysteries of consciousness, religion, or the future of artificial intelligence. But we offer a compelling invitation to explore our emotional suffering with curiosity, compassion, and a willingness to question what we believe.
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
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Working With Elders: Aging, Control, and Legacy
Hosts:
Dr. David Burns
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Guests:
Dr. Jill Levitt
Thai-An Truong, LPC. LADC
Episode Overview
What happens when aging begins to change the things that once gave us independence, identity, and a sense of purpose?
In this episode of The Feeling Good Podcast, Kevin Cornelius, Dr. David Burns, Jill Levitt, and Thai-An Truong explore the emotional challenges that can accompany aging—and the ways therapists, caregivers, family members, and loved ones can respond with greater empathy, dignity, and respect.
Thai-An draws on her experience working with older adults in an inpatient setting and introduces two fundamental needs that can become especially important in later life: control and legacy. As people age, they may experience layers of loss involving physical strength, health, friends, spouses, independence, financial security, familiar surroundings, and even their sense of identity. At the same time, family members and caregivers may become increasingly focused on getting things done, making decisions, and addressing practical or medical concerns.
That difference in agendas can create painful power struggles.
The episode explores a different approach: slowing down, reducing urgency, and giving older adults as much agency as possible. Rather than interpreting resistance or insistence on doing things a certain way as simply being "stubborn" or "difficult," the conversation considers whether these behaviors may reflect a deeply human need for control, safety, familiarity, and dignity.
The conversation then turns toward legacy and life review. Thai-An describes a process of listening for the stories, people, experiences, and themes that repeatedly emerge in an older person's conversations. Those stories can provide clues about the values that have mattered most throughout their life—and about how they would like to be remembered.
The episode concludes with a moving demonstration of this process, with Jill Levitt role-playing her mother, Wendy. Through stories about the Peace Corps, Brazil, travel, family, grandchildren, and her career, the conversation reveals deeper themes of adventure, learning, connection, love, acceptance, honesty, generosity, and respect.
Ultimately, this episode asks us to consider whether helping an older person is always about doing more for them. Sometimes, it may be about slowing down enough to listen, allowing them to remain the author of their own story, and helping them recognize that their life continues to matter.
Key Takeaways
1. Aging can involve many layers of loss
Thai-An emphasizes that loss can accumulate as people grow older. These losses may include:
Physical strength and health
Independence
Friends and peer relationships
A spouse or life partner
Financial independence
Familiar surroundings and one's home
A previous role in the family
A sense of productivity or contribution
Identity and social status
When several of these losses occur at once, older adults may be asked to make major decisions at precisely the time when they are feeling least able to cope with change.
2. Independence is about more than physical functioning
The discussion highlights how deeply identity can become connected to independence.
Kevin describes how his mother had previously derived meaning from helping other members of the family. When the roles reversed and she began needing help herself, she experienced shame and worried that she was becoming a burden.
Thai-An suggests that losing the ability to contribute can challenge an older person's sense of worth. Someone who spent a lifetime caring for others may struggle when suddenly placed in the position of needing care themselves.
3. The need for control doesn't disappear with age
One of the central ideas of the episode is that control is a fundamental human need.
When older adults lose the ability to perform tasks independently, they may increasingly depend on other people to do things for them. As a result, they may become particularly concerned about how those things are done.
What can look like being demanding, controlling, or "set in one's ways" may sometimes be an attempt to preserve agency in a life where many other choices have already been taken away.
Jill points out that someone who previously handled things independently may understandably want things done according to their preferences once other people become responsible for those tasks.
4. Caregivers can unintentionally create control battles
Family members and professionals often have legitimate reasons for wanting an older person to make a decision quickly: medication management, medical care, safety concerns, housing, transportation, or other practical issues.
But urgency can collide with the older person's need for control.
Thai-An describes the importance of "sitting with open hands"—reducing the pressure to make something happen immediately and instead creating room for the older person to participate in decisions about their own life.
Instead of:
"You need to do this."
the caregiver might ask:
"How can I help?"
"What would you like to decide?"
"What feels most important to you?"
"What would make you feel more comfortable?"
"What do you want to happen?"
The goal is not to ignore genuine medical or safety concerns. It is to preserve as much agency as possible while addressing those concerns.
5. Slowing down does not necessarily mean diminished capacity
Thai-An challenges the assumption that slowing down in old age automatically means that someone is less intelligent or less capable.
She discusses the idea that certain cognitive changes can actually create opportunities for reflection. Rather than rushing to process new information or make decisions, older adults may draw upon decades of experience and take more time to reflect, consider, and make meaning of what they have experienced.
This creates an important reframe:
Slowing down isn't necessarily something that needs to be fixed. Sometimes it may be part of what makes reflection possible.
6. Legacy is a fundamental need
Once the need for control is respected, Thai-An turns to what she describes as another major need: legacy.
Legacy isn't simply about leaving behind possessions or accomplishments. It can involve questions such as:
What has mattered most to me?
What have I learned?
What values have guided my life?
What do I want my family to remember?
What do I want to pass on to the next generation?
How do I want to be remembered?
What parts of my life still need to be understood or made meaningful?
Life review can provide an opportunity to explore these questions without treating the older person as someone who is merely reminiscing about the past. Their stories can become a way of understanding the values that have shaped their life.
7. Listen for the stories that keep coming back
Thai-An describes a particularly useful way of listening: pay attention to repeated stories and themes.
An older person may tell the same story over and over. Instead of thinking, "I've heard this story before," a caregiver or therapist can become curious about why this particular story continues to matter.
What people repeatedly talk about can reveal:
Relationships that were important
Experiences that shaped them
Values they continue to hold
Unresolved losses
Important accomplishments
Regrets
Traditions they want to preserve
Lessons they want future generations to understand
Thai-An compares this process to "well watching"—slowing down and observing what emerges rather than rushing toward an agenda.
8. Start with open-ended questions
Life review doesn't require an elaborate intervention.
It can begin with simple questions such as:
"Tell me about growing up."
"What was your life like when you were young?"
"How did you meet your spouse?"
"Tell me more about your parents."
"What do you remember about that time?"
"What was that experience like for you?"
"What did you learn from it?"
"What mattered most to you about that?"
"How did that experience change you?"
The important part is not asking a long list of questions. It is creating enough space for the older person to lead the conversation.
Thai-An emphasizes putting distractions aside, reducing urgency, and genuinely giving one's attention to the person.
9. The life-review process can be organized into several themes
Thai-An describes a framework for listening to an older person's stories. Among the elements she discusses are:
Repeated stories and themes
What stories, people, experiences, or events keep appearing?
Values
What does the story reveal about what matters to this person?
Recontextualization
Is there an old experience that could be understood differently now? Are there events that need healing, closure, forgiveness, or a new meaning?
Legacy
How does the person want to be remembered? What would they like future generations to know or carry forward?
This process can transform an ordinary conversation into an opportunity for deeper reflection and meaning-making.
 
Life Review

Repeated Stories or Themes
Listen for themes.
Notice repetitions.
Listen for topics described in exhaustive detail.
Notice people mentioned over and over again.
Pay attention to significant events.


Values
What does this show about your values?
What is the biggest takeaway for you?
How did this experience affect or change you?
Summarize the person's values and what they seem to deeply care about.


Recontextualization
Use tools like EOV to help make new meaning and work through distortions.
Ask whether there is any unfinished business.
Explore the need behind repeated stories or themes. Mend a relationship.
Leave a lost loved one some advice.
Express unsaid words.
Reconnect with an estranged loved one.
See familiar places once more.
Share memories.
Find a resolution.



Legacy
How do you want to be remembered, and by whom? For example, your children and grandchildren.
What do you want to be remembered for? Consider the things you value most.
How has your life reflected these values?
In what ways have these values become part of your life?
How has your life been different from your parents' lives?
What values do you want to pass to the next generation? Consider the vehicles for your legacy.
 
Life Review

Repeated Stories or Themes
Listen for themes.
Notice repetitions.
Listen for topics described in exhaustive detail.
Notice people mentioned over and over again.
Pay attention to significant events.


Values
What does this show about your values?
What is the biggest takeaway for you?
How did this experience affect or change you?
Summarize the person's values and what they seem to deeply care about.


Recontextualization
Use tools like EOV to help make new meaning and work through distortions.
Ask whether there is any unfinished business.
Explore the need behind repeated stories or themes. Mend a relationship.
Leave a lost loved one some advice.
Express unsaid words.
Reconnect with an estranged loved one.
See familiar places once more.
Share memories.
Find a resolution.



Legacy
How do you want to be remembered, and by whom? For example, your children and grandchildren.
What do you want to be remembered for? Consider the things you value most.
How has your life reflected these values?
In what ways have these values become part of your life?
How has your life been different from your parents' lives?
What values do you want to pass to the next generation? Consider the vehicles for your legacy.


Life Review
Repeated Stories or Themes
Listen for themes.
Notice repetitions.
Listen for topics described in exhaustive detail.
Notice people mentioned over and over again.
Pay attention to significant events.

Values
What does this show about your values?
What is the biggest takeaway for you?
How did this experience affect or change you?
Summarize the person's values and what they deeply care about.

Recontextualization
Use tools like EOV to make new meaning and work through distortions.
Ask whether there is any unfinished business.
Explore the need behind repeated stories or themes.
Mend a relationship.
Leave a lost loved one some advice.
Express unsaid words.
Reconnect with an estranged loved one.
See familiar places once more.
Share memories.
Find a resolution.


Legacy
How do you want to be remembered, and by whom? For example, your children and grandchildren.
What do you want to be remembered for? Consider the things you value most.
How has your life reflected these values?
How have these values become part of your life?
How has your life been different from your parents' lives?
What values do you want to pass to the next generation? Consider the vehicles for your legacy.

feeling good
 




10. Recontextualization can help unfinished stories find new meaning
An especially interesting part of the life-review framework involves recontextualization.
A person may revisit an event that has carried pain or resentment for many years and begin to see it from a different perspective. This doesn't mean denying what happened. Rather, it can involve asking whether additional context, understanding, or meaning is now possible.
The conversation also raises questions about unfinished business:
Is there something that needs to be said?
Is there someone with whom the person wants to reconnect?
Is there an apology or amends that would bring peace?
Is there something they wish they had done differently?
Is there an action that could provide closure?
In this way, life review can become more than remembering. It can become an opportunity for healing.
11. Don't force someone into vulnerability
Thai-An makes an important distinction: the life-review process should never become another agenda imposed on an older person.
The person gets to decide how much they want to share.
Some days they may want to tell stories for an hour. Other times they may not want to talk about the past at all.
The same principle applies to therapy and caregiving more broadly: invite rather than force.
The goal is to give the person control even while inviting them into meaningful reflection.
12. You don't need an entire hour to create meaningful connection
Thai-An notes that this kind of work does not necessarily require a formal, hour-long life-review session.
A therapist, nurse, physician, or caregiver might have only ten minutes.
Even in that short period, simply slowing down and reflecting a person's values can make a meaningful difference:
"It sounds like loyalty has really mattered to you."
or
"I'm hearing how important your relationship with your brother has been."
These reflections communicate that the person's life—and the meaning they have made from it—is worth noticing.
The Life-Review Demonstration
One of the most moving sections of the episode is a demonstration between Thai-An and Jill Levitt, who role-plays her mother, Wendy.
Thai-An begins by asking about stories that repeatedly come up and remain close to Wendy's heart.
Jill describes her parents' experience in the Peace Corps in Brazil shortly after they married. What initially sounds like a story about travel gradually reveals a much richer set of values:
Adventure
Curiosity
Travel
Learning about other cultures
Family
Sharing experiences
Passing traditions to future generations
Jill also recalls her father's tradition of singing to his grandchildren in Portuguese—a small family ritual that became part of what the grandchildren remembered about him.
Thai-An then moves beneath the stories and asks what these experiences meant.
The conversation ultimately arrives at a deeply personal question:
"What would you want them to remember you for?"
Jill describes wanting to be remembered as loving, accepting, open, honest, supportive, and "no strings attached." She also reflects on the importance of balancing her career as an occupational therapist with her role as a mother and grandmother.
The demonstration illustrates the central idea of the episode: the repeated stories are the doorway; the values underneath them are the legacy.
Sample of Wendy's Life Review
Repeated Stories or Themes
During the Vietnam draft, your dad and I left for Brazil instead for a couple of years.
Shared a lot of Brazil stories with grandkids.

Values
Adventure, culture, travel.
Learning a new language (Portuguese).
Contributing to building up the world instead of war and destruction.
The best part of life was being a grandparent.
Love, family, connection.

Recontextualization
It wasn't another boring Brazil story.
It was about sharing the best parts of life with the most important people.

Legacy
I want to be remembered for being loving, accepting of others, open and honest, and truly showing interest in others.
I respect others and their agency. No one is forced to be one way or another. No strings attached.
I was an OT, and my career of helping others was really meaningful to me, as was raising my family. The best part of life was being a grandparent. I still live for the updates, messages, and connection with Jill and my grandchildren.

feeling good
 

 
A Different Way of Thinking About Therapy With Older Adults
At one point, David observes that the discussion isn't sounding exactly like a technical lesson in how to apply TEAM-CBT to an elderly population.
Instead, he suggests that it sounds more like learning how to be a decent human being with older adults—how to relate to them respectfully, preserve the relationship, and avoid creating unnecessary frustration and power struggles.
Thai-An connects this directly to TEAM-CBT: empathy, respect, understanding resistance, and using methods that honor the person's needs.
The result is an approach that isn't primarily about getting the older person to comply with someone else's agenda. It is about understanding what matters to them and helping them meet those needs with dignity.
Questions for Reflection
Whether you're a therapist, caregiver, adult child, or simply someone with an aging loved one, consider:
What losses might this person be experiencing that I don't immediately see?
How much control does this person still have over their daily life?
Am I unintentionally creating a power struggle?
Could what looks like stubbornness actually be a need for agency or safety?
Am I moving too quickly?
What stories does this person tell repeatedly?
What values are hidden inside those stories?
What do they want future generations to know?
What do they want to be remembered for?
Is there unfinished business that could benefit from attention?
What would happen if I simply slowed down and listened?
Final Thought
The episode offers a simple but profound shift in perspective.
An older person is not merely someone who needs to be managed, protected, or helped.
They are a person with a history, values, relationships, wisdom, preferences, unfinished stories, and a continuing need for agency and meaning.
Sometimes the most helpful thing we can offer is not another solution.
It may be our attention.
It may be our patience.
It may be a willingness to ask one more question.
And sometimes, it may be the opportunity to tell a story one more time—and finally have someone listen closely enough to discover why that story mattered.
Key Takeaway in One Sentence
When we slow down, respect an older person's need for control, and listen deeply to the stories they tell, we may help them discover—and pass on—the legacy that gives their life meaning.
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
Thai-An Truong is a Licensed Professional Counselor (LPC) and Alcohol and Drug Counselor (LADC). She is the first Certified TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer in Oklahoma. She has found TEAM-CBT to be life-changing professionally and personally and is passionate about training other therapists in this "awesome approach." In her private practice, Thai-An specializes in the treatment of trauma and OCD. To learn more about her TEAM-CBT Trainings, visit www.teamcbttraining.com.
Dr. Jill Levitt is the Director of Clinical Training at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. If you would like to contact her for treatment, training, or supervision, you can reach her at jilllevitt@feelinggoodinstitute.com.
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!
Download the app at www.feelinggreat.com

When Depression Is the Expression of Love
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
When Depression Is the Expression of Love
This episode is inspired by Dr. David Burns' Psychology Today article, "When Love Masquerades as Depression." Kevin and David explore the surprising idea that painful emotions such as depression, guilt, and shame can sometimes reflect a person's deepest values and capacity to love.
What if depression, guilt, and shame aren't always signs that something is wrong with us—but can sometimes be distorted expressions of something deeply meaningful and positive?
In this episode of The Feeling Good Podcast, Kevin Cornelius and Dr. David Burns explore this provocative idea through the story of Jim, a man who had struggled with severe depression for nearly a decade following the tragic death of his stepson.
Jim believed he was responsible for his stepson's death. Friends tried to reassure him that it wasn't his fault, but their attempts to convince him otherwise didn't help. Instead of trying to talk Jim out of his guilt and depression, David listened carefully and discovered something unexpected beneath his suffering: Jim's extraordinary capacity to love, care for, and help other people.
Jim had devoted much of his life to helping others. Even during his years of depression, he had stepped away from his successful business and devoted himself to helping people who had lost limbs from landmines. His depression, guilt, and sense of responsibility were connected to some of his most deeply held values.
David and Kevin discuss how Positive Reframing, one of the central concepts in TEAM-CBT, can help therapists and patients discover the positive intentions and core values underlying painful emotions and behaviors. Rather than immediately trying to eliminate a symptom, the therapist first seeks to understand what the symptom may be doing for the person.
The conversation also explores why trying to "fix" someone can actually increase resistance, why empathy is often more powerful than reassurance, and how dramatic changes can sometimes occur when people discover a new perspective for themselves rather than simply being told what to think.
David also describes how working with Jim on a seemingly unrelated problem revealed the larger pattern underlying his suffering. Jim was worried that withdrawing money from a friend's bank could cause the bank to fail. As they examined the thought together, Jim suddenly recognized how exaggerated his sense of responsibility had become—and burst out laughing. David describes this as a moment of "laughing enlightenment."
The episode offers a fascinating look at several fundamental TEAM-CBT principles: positive reframing, empathy, resistance, cognitive distortions, the fractal nature of psychological problems, and the possibility of rapid change.
Key Takeaways
Look beneath painful emotions. Depression, guilt, shame, anxiety, and anger can sometimes be connected to important values, relationships, and positive intentions.
Positive Reframing can reduce resistance. Rather than immediately trying to eliminate a symptom or correct a distorted thought, therapists can help patients understand what the symptom represents and how it may have served a positive purpose.
Empathy comes before fixing. Trying to cheer someone up or convince them that their feelings are wrong can be counterproductive. Genuine understanding can create the openness needed for change.
Our strengths can become liabilities when taken to extremes. Jim's extraordinary desire to help others was a beautiful quality, but his belief that he was responsible for everyone's well-being also contributed to his suffering.
Work on the problem the patient wants to work on. Jim's immediate concern about a friend's bank revealed the same underlying pattern of excessive responsibility that had contributed to his depression.
The "fractal" idea in TEAM-CBT. Core patterns of thinking and suffering can show up in many different situations. Changing one specific problem can illuminate and change the larger pattern.
Don't simply tell people what to see—help them discover it. Jim's breakthrough came when he recognized for himself how unrealistic his sense of responsibility had become. David describes this as a rapid moment of insight.
Hopelessness can itself be a cognitive distortion. Previous unsuccessful attempts at treatment do not necessarily mean that someone is a hopeless case.
Therapists can have the same blind spots as their patients. David reflects on his own belief that he should be able to help everyone, recognizing both its motivating power and its potential costs.
Recovery can transform a person's life. Jim ultimately became fully engaged with his relationships, work, and life, and continued to express gratitude years after his recovery.
Read the Article
"When Love Masquerades as Depression" by Dr. David Burns, published in Psychology Today.
Read the article on Psychology Today
Listener Survey
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Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

What If the Real Antidepressant Is You?
The placebo effect is powerful—and why that truth matters more than you think.
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
What if one of the most widely accepted ideas in mental health isn't true?
In this fascinating episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius discuss David's recent Psychology Today article, "What If the Real Antidepressant Is You? The Placebo Effect Is Powerful—and Why That Truth Matters More Than You Think." Together they explore decades of research on antidepressants, the surprising power of the placebo effect, and why giving yourself credit for your own recovery may be one of the most important—and hopeful—ideas in psychology.
Whether you're taking antidepressants, considering them, or simply curious about the science of depression and recovery, this conversation will challenge assumptions, answer difficult questions with compassion, and leave you with a new perspective on where healing really comes from.
Episode Summary
Can a sugar pill relieve depression?
The answer, surprisingly, is yes.
But what if that isn't the most interesting question?
In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius discuss David's recent Psychology Today article, "What If the Real Antidepressant Is You? The Placebo Effect Is Powerful—and Why That Truth Matters More Than You Think." Together they examine decades of research, clinical experience, and one of the biggest controversies in psychiatry: Do antidepressant medications work because of their chemistry—or because of the hope and expectation they inspire?
David explains why his own experience treating thousands of patients led him to question the effectiveness of antidepressant medications long before large-scale analyses reached similar conclusions. He shares the story of discovering research comparing antidepressants with placebos, and why those findings changed the way he thought about depression treatment forever.
The conversation then takes an unexpected turn as David tells a memorable story about a fictional "miracle drug" named Placebo. Through this thought experiment, he explains why the placebo effect is often misunderstood—and why recovering on a placebo doesn't mean someone is "faking it." Instead, David argues that people may be activating their own remarkable capacity for healing through hope, expectation, and changes in the way they think.
Kevin raises thoughtful questions that many listeners may be asking:
If antidepressants aren't doing the healing, why do so many people feel convinced they helped?
Why do people become angry when the placebo effect is discussed?
If the placebo effect is real, does that mean cognitive therapy is "just a placebo" too?
How can we distinguish between hope, expectancy, and treatments that produce unique therapeutic benefits?
David also discusses new research from the Feeling Great app suggesting that while expectancy contributes to improvement, TEAM-CBT techniques appear to have measurable therapeutic effects above and beyond placebo alone.
The discussion also explores:
Why David believes patients deserve the credit for their own recovery.
How understanding how you recovered can help protect you from future episodes of depression.
Common side effects and withdrawal symptoms associated with antidepressants.
Why David encourages listeners never to stop psychiatric medication without working closely with their prescribing clinician.
Drug-free approaches to depression, including TEAM-CBT, Feeling Good, Feeling Great, and the Feeling Great app.
Toward the end of the episode, Kevin asks David what gives him hope after more than five decades of clinical work. David shares exciting early findings from ongoing research on the Feeling Great app, reflects on the future of TEAM-CBT, and closes with an encouraging message for anyone who believes they're hopeless: in his experience, hopelessness itself is almost always the illness speaking—not reality.
Whether you're curious about antidepressants, fascinated by the placebo effect, or simply looking for hope in your own recovery, this episode will challenge assumptions and invite you to think differently about where healing really comes from.
Memorable Takeaways
The placebo effect isn't fake—it may be one of the most powerful healing forces we possess. Hope, expectation, and belief can produce genuine emotional and biological changes.
You deserve the credit for your recovery. If you improve, understanding how you got better gives you the power to do it again when life knocks you down.
Healing doesn't have to come from a pill. According to David, lasting recovery comes from learning to change the thoughts and behaviors that keep depression alive.
Question assumptions—even the popular ones. Science advances by following the evidence wherever it leads, even when the conclusions are uncomfortable or controversial.
A treatment can create hope without being the source of healing. The conversation explores the important distinction between the benefits of expectancy and the unique effects of a treatment itself.
Never stop psychiatric medication on your own. If you're considering changing or discontinuing medication, work closely with your prescribing clinician to do so safely.
Hopelessness is a feeling—not a fact. David argues that hopelessness is one of depression's greatest illusions, and that recovery is often possible even when it seems unimaginable.
The most important question isn't "What cured me?" but "What did I do that helped me recover?" Your answer may become your roadmap for staying well in the future.
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Ask David: Friendship, Rejection, and Anxiety About Sleep
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
Guest: Dr. Matt May
In this Ask David episode of the Feeling Good Podcast, David Burns, Dr. Matt May, and Kevin Cornelius tackle two listener questions: one about the painful experience of feeling that your efforts at friendship aren't being reciprocated, and another about anxiety-induced insomnia.
The conversation explores a common theme underlying both problems: our suffering often comes not only from what happens, but from the thoughts and assumptions we make about what happens.
When Friendship Doesn't Feel Reciprocal
Brittany writes about a recurring pattern in her relationships. She is usually the one who reaches out, initiates conversations, and tries to build friendships, but she doesn't feel that others make the same effort. She wonders: "What am I doing wrong?"
Kevin suggests an important alternative: perhaps she isn't doing anything wrong at all.
There may be many explanations for another person's lack of reciprocity. They may be busy, uncomfortable making new friends, or simply not interested in the same kind of relationship. Most importantly, we aren't the right friend for everybody—and everybody isn't the right friend for us.
David introduces the TEAM-CBT technique of Reattribution, encouraging Brittany to consider explanations other than the automatic conclusion that something is wrong with her.
The group then explores Changing the Focus, one of the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Rather than silently wondering what another person is thinking, Brittany could directly—and respectfully—acknowledge the tension and ask the other person how they experience the relationship.
But saying something this vulnerable can feel risky. What if the other person really does reject us?
David, Matt, and Kevin explore this fear through a Feared Fantasy role-play, imagining some of the harshest things another person might say. The goal isn't to create a perfect response; it is to discover that even rejection can be faced, accepted, and explored with curiosity.
The role-play produces one of the episode's central insights: accepting another person's criticism or rejection can sometimes be much more powerful than trying to defend ourselves against it.
When Trying to Sleep Becomes the Problem
The second listener, writing from China, describes three months of anxiety and insomnia. They desperately want to get eight hours of sleep, but the fear of not sleeping creates tension that makes falling asleep even harder. Then, when they realize they haven't slept well, the panic starts all over again.
David immediately points to the value of a Daily Mood Log. Rather than guessing what is causing the anxiety, he recommends identifying the specific negative thoughts, emotions, and belief ratings connected to the insomnia.
Matt suggests using the What-If Technique to uncover the fear underneath the anxiety:
What are you afraid will happen if you don't get enough sleep?
Perhaps the fear is that you won't be able to function, that something terrible will happen, or that you will lose control. Once the underlying fear is identified, it can become something that can actually be examined and challenged.
Kevin also challenges the assumption that everyone needs exactly eight hours of sleep to be healthy. The discussion emphasizes that anxiety about the need to sleep can itself make sleep more difficult.
David summarizes the idea bluntly: the problem may not be insomnia itself, but the distorted thoughts about insomnia. The "shoulds"—I should be sleeping; I have to get eight hours—can turn a bad night of sleep into a major emotional crisis.
The group also discusses behavioral approaches to insomnia, including sleep restriction, getting out of bed rather than lying awake and frustrated, and paying attention to factors such as caffeine and sleep habits.
Important: The discussion of alprazolam, Tylenol, and other sleep-related medications reflects comments made during the podcast and should not be interpreted as individualized medical advice. Medication decisions should be discussed with a qualified medical professional.
Key Takeaways
Not every lack of reciprocity means something is wrong with you. Consider alternative explanations before concluding that you are unlikable or doing something wrong.
You aren't the right friend for everyone. Sometimes the healthiest response is to recognize that two people simply aren't a good match and move on.
Changing the Focus can bring hidden tension into the open. Rather than guessing what someone thinks, talk openly about what you're noticing and ask for their perspective.
Vulnerability is often what makes honest connection possible. Saying "I feel hurt" or "I sense some tension" can feel risky, but it can also create an opportunity for genuine understanding.
Use the Feared Fantasy to face rejection. Imagine the worst response you might receive and practice responding to it rather than avoiding the conversation altogether.
Acceptance can be disarming. Instead of automatically defending yourself when someone criticizes or rejects you, try accepting what they are saying and becoming genuinely curious about their experience.
Identify the thoughts underneath anxiety. With insomnia, ask: What am I afraid will happen if I don't sleep? The answer may reveal the real source of the panic.
"I should be sleeping" can become part of the problem. Fighting insomnia and catastrophizing about its consequences may increase anxiety and make sleep more difficult.
Precision matters. A Daily Mood Log can help identify exactly what emotions and negative thoughts are driving a problem, rather than relying on vague descriptions of anxiety or distress.
Look for hidden emotions and unresolved problems. David discusses the possibility that insomnia can sometimes be connected to relationship difficulties, work problems, depression, anxiety, or other issues that haven't been addressed.
Coming Up on Ask David
The episode ends with two intriguing questions for future episodes. Kevin raises the difficult question of what to say when someone believes an antidepressant has "changed their life," while Matt introduces a question about the possible impact of social media on mood and relationships.
As David points out, the social-media question raises an important distinction between a compelling hypothesis and something that has actually been demonstrated through research. The conversation returns to a broader TEAM-CBT theme: vulnerability and openly sharing our feelings may be important ingredients in developing deeper, more loving relationships—whether online or face-to-face.
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com

Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!
Download the app now at www.FeelingGreat.com