Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

• 459: Personal Work with our Beloved Rhonda, Part 2

  Part 2 of Our Personal Work with Rhonda The Surprising Conclusion of Rhonda's Session with Matt and David Last week, you heard Part 1 of our personal work--a single two hour therapy session--with Rhonda, focusing on her recent shocking diagnosis of a cancerous and potentially fatal lymphatic tumor in her neck. We did initial T = Testing and E = Empathy. Today we do the A = Assessment of Resistance and the M = Methods, and of course, the final assessment of symptoms and teaching points. A = Assessment of Resistance How DO you help someone facing a terrifying diagnosis of cancer? What's the best method to use? How do you cheer them up, or is it impossible to do so and foolish to try? Or is there no correct answer to these questions? Well, there IS a "correct" answer, at least according to the gospel of TEAM. You ASK the person if they want help, or if listening is enough. And if they want help, you ask them what they want help with. This personalizes the treatment and brings it alive for the patient. Rhonda said she had difficulties accepting help, and extreme fears of being a burden on others. She specifically wanted to stop comparing herself to her friend, Jack, who has so far survived for four years after a severe diagnosis of disseminated cancer requiring whole body radiation. She also wanted help feeling less guilty about her anger and her complaint about pain and side effects. Because we didn't want the session to run overly long, we did some streamlined Positive Reframing, listing 11 positives embbeded in her negative thoughts and feelings, such as "I have no right to complain." What does each negative thought and feeling show about her that's positive and awesome? And what were some benefits of them? The we asked Rhonda about her goals for each negative feeling on her DML, which you can see if you CLICK HERE As you can see, her desired reductions for most of her negative feelings were only modest, perhaps indicating some acceptance of her situation and the negative feelings that seemed inevitable. However, this can sometimes indicate some residual resistance that has not been addressed. We'll have to wait and see what happens next to find out! M = Methods We worked with Rhonda using several methods, especially the Externalization of Voices with frequent role reversal until she got to huge. My memory of the session is that the Counter-Attack Technique compared with the Acceptance Paradox got her to HUGE wins. You can see Rhonda’s ratings for each negative feeling at the end of the session if you CLICK HERE And were these rating genuine? Or was she just being "helpful" to us for the sake of the podcast? At the end, Rhonda estimate her gratitude was 1,000,000%! Thank you, Rhonda. We all love you for your incredibly important gift to all of us today, teaching us how to love, and to laugh, when we all have to face our inevitable fate of letting go and experiencing the "true Great Death" of the "self." And we are 1,000,000% grateful to your wonderful doctors at Stanford that this cancer will NOT get the last word! Teaching Points The first take home message is that you can’t effectively treat anyone with any kind of emotional problem without asking them to write down their negative thoughts. If you do this, you can find out exactly what's going on, and you'll know the only real cause of all the negative feelings that person is struggling with. That’s why you can’t treat depression with “tips” or advice, like “spend time in nature,” or “spend time with friends.” That’s just junk and cheap advice and it will not work, above and beyond a possible placebo effect. Second we don’t treat problems, like “cancer” or "depression" or any “mental disorder” with packages developed for just that problem. We treat people who are struggling, and find out what their negative thoughts are! You CANNOT know what someone is thinking without asking them. Everyone’s thoughts are different and unique. That's why packages, including ALL the so-called "schools" of therapy, will ALWAYS fall short. There are, of course, common themes, like “I’m not good enough,” but we all put our own unique spins on these themes when we’re hurting. And third, measure what you're trying to treat, with brief accurate scales worded in the hear and now at the start and end of each session. That's the ONLY way to know if you've been effective. And finally, events no matter how traumatic, do NOT cause feelings. Only your thoughts can have impact on how you feel about yourself, other people, and the world. That statement is not intended to blame you for how you feel, but to liberate you from the traps you've fallen into. Thanks for listening today! Matt, Rhonda, and David

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• 458: Personal Work with our Beloved Rhonda, Part 1

  Part 1 of Our Personal Work with Rhonda The doctor said I have cancer!  Are feelings of depression, fear, anger, hopelessness, and more inevitable if you have experienced a severely traumatic event? Nearly all human beings would say it IS inevitable. But are they right? If your doctor just told you that you have a serious form of cancer, is it possible--or even desirable--to avoid intense distress and despair? Today, Matthew May MD and I sit down with our beloved Rhonda who was diagnosed roughly six weeks ago with a cancerous follicular lymphoma. This is a type of lymphatic cancer that allows for a reasonably long life expectancy, but is almost universally fatal. With one exception—if you find and treat it super early. And that is where Rhonda finds herself. And today, she received her (hopefully) 12th and final radiation treatment to her neck, right under her right ear. She was told that the probability of a cure is 95%, but the effects, including painful side effects, of the radiation would be cumulative and increasing for a while after the series of treatments has been concluded. And she IS in considerable discomvort. Which was good news, great news, actually, for all of us! Still, it’s been a rocky and highly emotional road for Rhonda. So Matt and I sat down with her early this morning to see if we, with the help of TEAM CBT, might be able to bring her some accurate empathy and comfort. In the session, Matt and I went through the T E A M sequence with Rhonda. T = Testing You can see Rhonda’s initial Brief Mood Survey if you CLICK HERE As you can see from her Brief Mood Survey, which was completed before the session began, she was only mildly elevated in depression, anxiety, and anger, but her positive feelings of happiness were very low (only 8 our of 20, with 0 being not happiness at all in any category and 20 being the highest possible happiness. in all categories.) E = Empathy However, as Matt and I empathized with Rhonda, we reviewed her partially completed Daily Mood Log, which you can see if you CLICK HERE This tool painted a radically different picture. Rhonda's scores in nearly all categories were extremely elevated, indicating about the most intense feelings of depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, inadequacy, hopelessness, frustration, anger, and shock, as you can imagine. She was also moderately self-conscious and embarrassed. Four radically important question came to mind: What was causing these intensely negative and almost unbearable feelings? Is there any realistic hope of reducing them during today's session? And if you did want to "help," how in the world would you attempt to do this? And how much "help" could you realistically hope for? If you're serious about these topics, I would strongly recommend that you take a piece of paper and jot down your answers to these questions right now, before you listen to the rest of session. Then, after you listen to the conclusion next week, you can compare what happened with your own ideas about the situation. , During the empathy phase, Matt and I used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication to understand exactly how Rhonda was think, and how she was really feeling inside. We also did a What-If / Downward Arrow Technique to find out what she was the most afraid of. If you haven't already listened to that portion of our work with her. What do you think she was most afraid of in having cancer? And why, do you suppose, she was feeling so guilty? And so angry? We also explored the impact of the side effects of the radiation therapy, and the impact of the cancer on her personal and family relationships, the errors others made in trying to "help" when she was feeling down, and her fears of the future. At the end of the empathy phase, we asked Rhonda to grade us in three categories: How well did David and Matt understand your thoughts? How well did David and Matt understand how you were feeling inside? How well did David and Matt so in creating an atmosphere of trust, warmth, and acceptance? If you're a mental health professional and you do psychotherapy, I have another question for you before we continue: What % of your patients do you ask these three questions part way through your sessions? Raise your hand if the answer is "most, if not all, of my sessions." Yikes! I don't see many hands going up! I don't want to upset you, and you may not take me seriously, but you might be missing the boat! At any rate, Rhonda gave us a triple A +. That's definitely a passing grade, and she gave us the green light to go on to the final two steps of the TEAM session(/the A and the M steps), which you'll hear in their entirety on our very next podcast! Thanks for listening today! And make sure you tune in next week for the awesome conclusion of our work with our beloved Rhonda! Rhonda, Matt, and David

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• 457: Ask David: Chasing, Sadness as Celebration, and Autism

  Ask David: Chasing, Commitment Problems Sadness as Celebration Is Autism Increasing?  The answers to today’s questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the live discussion for a more in-depth discussion of each question. Today’s live podcast discussion with Rhonda, Matt, and David was very energetic and hopefully inspiring for all of you! Today’s questions. Aurora asks about a dating problem—the guy I’m dating doesn’t want to “commit.” What should I do? Ana asks: I’m 48 now, and about 25 years ago, I was diagnosed with infertility—a devastating moment for someone who had dreamed of becoming a mother since childhood. Through therapy, prayer, and especially your book Feeling Good, I’ve done deep healing. I truly feel at peace most of the time. My life is full and joyful. But I’ve noticed that certain dates—especially Mother’s Day and Christmas—still bring sadness. Not overwhelming or constant, but a familiar ache that surprises me even now. I use my CBT tools and move through it, but part of me wonders: should I be “over this” by now? Brittany asks: Is autism really on the increase? The following questions will be included in the next Ask David podcast. We did not have time to include them today. Ollie asks: How do you motivate a procrastinating patient to do the hard work of facing the task they’ve been putting off? Owen asks: Should I complete a full Daily Mood Log each day? Owen asks: Is it okay to copy the positive reframing from a previous DML when relevant? Zainab asks: Is friendship a basic human need?   1. Aurora asks about a dating problem—the guy I’m dating doesn’t want to “commit.” What should I do. Hi Doctor Burns, I have been dating a guy exclusively (both only seeing each other) but he doesn’t bring up wanting commitment to being in a relationship. He wants to see me in all his free time but tends to plan dates last minute if he does and assumes we will hang out at his place when we get together. He knows I’d like a relationship but said we are working towards that and that it’s putting unnecessary pressure when I mentioned it. I’m not sure how long to wait and asking directly for what I’d like (him planning dates in advance) doesn’t really help as he quickly got defensive and I then went to using the five secrets. Any advice? Thank you for everything you do, I love your books and podcast so much. They have truly changed my life. You and Rhonda make me smile every day that I listen. If you do by chance use my question would you not include my name? Aurora David’s response Yes we can address this during an Ask David. It’s great timing since we just had several podcasts on dating questions, Quick answer, and we’ll go deeper in the podcast, but it sounds like you’re being a bit too available and letting him use you and take you for granted. Remember the Burns Rule: “People ONLY want what they CAN’T get, and NEVER want what they CAN get!” So being more unavailable, letting him know you have other plans (which may simply be not to see him at the last minute), all the while being sweet. When he says he is not interested in a commitment just now, you can use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, and play the role of “shrink,” not “available lady.” Ask him about that, express curiosity, encourage him to talk. These methods (5 secrets) are an art form, spelled out pretty clearly in Feeling Good Together. Pressing him for a commitment is guaranteed to drive him away. You want HIM to be the chaser, and YOU to be the chased. Also, a Daily Mood Log on thoughts that make you anxious about him, and working toward letting go of “needing” him. Warmly, David Aurora responds to David This is amazing Dr. Burns, thank you so very much! I am so humbled you took the time to read my email, use my questions, and give such a helpful reply. And yes how about the name Aurora! Thank you and Rhonda. Your work has truly changed my life and I am so deeply grateful for all you do. Aurora   2. Ana asks about living with infertility. Hi Dr. Burns, I hope you’re well. I had the honor of corresponding with you and Dr. Rhonda last year about my relationship with my mother, and I’m still so grateful for your generosity and the space you gave me on the podcast. Today I write about a different part of my story. I’m 48 now, and about 25 years ago, I was diagnosed with infertility—a devastating moment for someone who had dreamed of becoming a mother since childhood. Through therapy, prayer, and especially your book Feeling Good, I’ve done deep healing. I truly feel at peace most of the time. My life is full and joyful. But I’ve noticed that certain dates—especially Mother’s Day and Christmas—still bring sadness. Not overwhelming or constant, but a familiar ache that surprises me even now. I use my CBT tools and move through it, but part of me wonders: should I be “over this” by now? Or is it normal that something so deep still stirs, even after years of healing? I sometimes question whether I’m simply very good at coping (I’m an Enneagram 3—always performing strength) or if there’s still more I need to process, like the moment both of my sisters-in-law announced their pregnancies during the darkest part of my grief 😓💔. But then again, maybe occasional sadness is just part of living with love and loss. Thank you for reading—and for your work, which has meant so much to me. Warmly, Ana David’s Response Hi Ana, My website is a little clunky now, but if you search “Sadness as Celebration” you may find one or more podcasts that address this concept. In simple terms, your sadness is an expression of your love, and your core values as a human being, as a woman. So you might want to continue to experience that  occasional sadness forever. Of course, if it is having a negative effect on your llfe, that would be different, but it doesn’t sound that way. Acceptance, with gratitude, could be one path. Could we use this on an Ask David, with your first name or possibly some other name? In other words, if you could press our Magic Button and “be over it,” would you REALLY want to press that button? What does your sadness say about you and your core values that’s positive, even awesome? Warmly, david Ana replies Dear Dr. Burns, Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful response. What you said makes so much sense — it’s so wise, so true, and also so simple. I appreciate it deeply. The idea that my sadness is an expression of love and core values feels incredibly freeing. I only wish I didn’t feel guilty or “broken” when these feelings creep in from time to time. Your perspective helps me see them differently — not as setbacks, but as moments of connection with something I’ve loved dearly. Yes, please feel free to use this in an Ask David episode. I’d be honored. You’re welcome to use my first name, Ana. With gratitude, Ana David’s reply Thanks again, Ana. As an aside, you “got it,” I believe. Your sadness is an expression of your love, and likely also makes you more compassionate toward others. And more. The sadness you feel, arguably, is not a “defect,” or something to be defeated, but something beautiful that can be accepted and welcomed. If you think it is “too much,” you can write down your Negative Thoughts and look for distortions, of course. Warmly, david Rhonda suggested that we give the numbers of the podcasts that deal with the interesting topic of “Sadness as Celebration.” They include #s174, 252, 253, and 304 (this last being my experience with loneliness and grief while driving across the Nevada desert as a medical student.)   3. Brittany asks if autism is on the increase? Hi Dr. Burns, I’ve noticed in the last few years the term autism being used much more commonly and now seems to be a broader term. I watched a show last night where an actual autism center was showing their test they use. It was pictures of people’s eyes and you had to guess if they were feeling sad, happy, frustrated, etc. They said autistic people have a hard time telling what others are thinking/feeling. Well I took the quiz and got half wrong. They also described autistic people as being awkward socially, having a hard time adjusting to new surroundings, disliking loud noises. Well that also describes me but by no means would I say I’m autistic. I think they are throwing personal preferences and social anxiety into the umbrella term autism. I know you did that podcast on ADHD where you said you don’t treat ADHD, you treat people. What are your thoughts on the way autism seems to be diagnosed these days? Of course I’m sure you would just treat whatever problem the person wanted to work on, not the so called disorder. But still, do you find it frustrating how often people are deemed to be autistic these days? -Brittany David’s reply I might be a bit autistic, too! Join the club. It's the latest thing, and super broad boundaries, just like you said. And like you said, I treat the person, not the so-called "mental disorder." Also, I did an informal study on shrinks, and they had no idea what patients were feeling even after a two + hour interview with the patient! Warmly, david PS I'll make this another ask David, it's a good one! Rhonda wrote: David:  What do you think of putting the link to the autism facial recognition test in the show notes? Great idea, Rhonda, so here’s the link. Remember, we are not endorsing the validity or reliability of this scale, nor are we recommending it for any medical or psychological assessment! David Check out the Autism Test Thanks for listening today! Matt, Rhonda, and David  

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• 456: Ask David: The Fear of Being Alone or Abandoned. . . and More!

  Ask David: The Fear of Being Abandoned Living with Someone Who's Depressed Can Someone Else's Depression Depress You! The answers to today’s questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the live discussion for a more in-depth discussion of each question. Today’s questions. Negar asks: How can I overcome my fear of being alone or being abandoned? Stan asks: What are your tips on living with someone suffering from anxiety or depression? They can sometimes be demanding or argumentative! Stan Asks: How can we protects ourselves from not feeling down during and after spending social time with anxious and / or depressed people because they express anxious or depressing thoughts to us. It seems to me that we must start to believe the distorted negative thoughts that the anxious or depressed person transmits to us, so we start to feel the same negative emotions the other person feels.   1. Negar asks: How can I overcome my fear of being alone or being abandoned? Thank you very much You know, doctor, one of the problems I have had since childhood was that I always worry about being alone and losing the people I love. My mind becomes conditioned and a lot of negative obsessive thoughts come to my mind, even the smallest irrelevant and random external events create a sign and increase stress But I will not stop trying But I am very eager to know what you think about the mind and the irrelevant and random patterns that it relates to negative events and how to get out of this cycle You can even put this as a podcast or clip on YouTube, I think it would be very welcome because I have seen many people who have this problem🙂😇 David’s response Hi Negar, Sure, we can have a question on the fear of being alone / abandoned, and the many ways of overcoming this problem. Copying Rhonda, my co-host. It is covered in detail in the first part of my book, Intimate Connections. Methods we can discuss include: Dailly Mood Log Empathy Positive Reframing Deserted Island Fantasy Cognitive Flooding Please Predicting Sheet Experimental Technique Examine the Evidence Downward Arrow / Identify Self-Defeating Belief(s) (SDB) Cost-Benefit Analysis for SDB Hidden Emotion Technique Externalization of Voices (with Acceptance Paradox, Self-Defense Paradigm, and CAT, or Counter-Attack Technique) Identify and Explain the Distortions Warmly, david   Dear Dr Burns Thank you for all the effort you put into the podcasts, video clips and other material, which I find so helpful. They are a great addition to the books you have written. They are very inspiring and  life changing in my case. I have two questions that I would be very grateful if you would discuss in one of your ask David podcasts, if you think they are worth discussing. 2. Stan ask about living with an anxious or depressed person who can sometimes be argumentative or demanding. Do you have any advice for family members or housemates that live with a person suffering from anxiety or depression. No one wants to make the situation worse and maybe there are some suggestions. I know it can be very difficult living with someone who is anxious or depressed. An anxious or depressed person might sometimes be very demanding or argumentative. They might also sit around doing almost nothing all day or they might have odd sleeping hours for example.  They may make unreasonable requests or be overly sensitive and when hurt lash out at others for example. David’s Reply I would strongly recommend the podcast on “How to Help and How NOT to Help!” Will explain a bit more on the podcast. David   3. Transference of Negative Emotions? Why do we feel bad and how can we protects ourselves from not feeling down during and after spending social time with anxious and / or depressed people because they express anxious or depressing thoughts to us. It seems to me that we must start to believe the distorted negative thoughts that the anxious or depressed person transmits to us, so we start to feel the same negative emotions the other person feels. When this happens we might start to avoid contact with the other person which might make them feel worse. As always I would really appreciate your thoughts on the above two matters, if you think it is worth an Ask David question Thank you again. Kind regards Stan David’s Reply Negative feelings do not “transfer” between people. Only your own thoughts can affect the way you feel. Will explain more on the show! If you’ve been making the mistake of trying to “help,” it would make sense that you would feel upset, frustrated, maybe even angry. But it is your own dysfunctional way of interacting with the depressed or anxious person, and your own negative thoughts, that are 100% responsible for how you feel! But I will need to spell this out on the show! Thanks for listening today! Matt, Rhonda, and David

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• 455: Dating Part 3: Flirting Secrets, Safety, and More!

  Dating, Part 3 Flirting Secrets, Safety, and More! Today we feature, Dr. Leigh Harrington and Dr. Angela Krumm, who will tell us how to flirt and date skillfully. Both Leigh and Angela are highly advanced TEAM CBT therapists and beloved friends and long-time members of our TEAM Community. Bio sketches for both go here. Include the idea that Leigh is a psychiatrist who specializes in social anxiety, relationship problems, bad habits, and depression, as well as traversing difficult situations with grace. Angela is a clinical psychologist and co-founder of the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. She specializes in social anxiety, teaching flirting skills, treating phobias, as well as health and lifestyle changes. Leigh and Angela, let me know what you want for your contact information at the end of the show notes, like email, website, whatever you prefer in case listeners want to contact you. Also, if you have recent pics we can use in the show notes, that’s cool, too, but not required. Rhonda began the show, as usual, with a warm-hearted endorsement, this one from a fan who greatly appreciated Dr. Taylor Chesney’s recent podcast on how to communicate with teenagers who may seem rebellious and out of control. The listener said it helped tremendously in her interaction with her 15 year old stepdaughter. I was not surprised, as Taylor is always filled with great wisdom and awesome advice in her teachings—something I also appreciate tremendously. The take-home message was to use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, instead of trying to control them. Form a meaningful and loving relationship. It will pay off in the long run, and in the short run as well! Leigh began today’s podcast with a focus on safety when dating strangers, having fun on your dates, how to avoid dating the “wrong” people, how to tame your “dating addiction,” and how to set yourself up for success. Angela then taught us how to generate a fun and meaningful conversation with people you meet, and how to flirt and get things started in a positive direction. She explained that she went through a divorce when she was still young, and got lots of help in her flirting skills from several dear colleagues, including Maor Katz, Jacob Towery, and Stephen Pfleiderer. Mastering these skills was very helpful, and is now more than happy to share the incredible tips she picked up at that time, as well as her personal experiences, which culminated in a successful second marriage and family with an awesome hunk of a guy she met, using these skills. Leigh described how she works with patients who are shy by going out with them to public places where they can encounter and interact with strangers so as to confront and overcome inhibitions and intense anxiety. She said this kind of dramatic experience can have a sudden beneficial impact. She described taking a patient to a drugstore to ask a clerk about the best products for a toenail fungus. The clerk was exceptionally helpful and friendly. Leigh emphasized the power of sharing vulnerabilities to enhance connection with others. Angela said she does the same, going out with patients to approach strangers on the street with innocuous “openers” like asking questions, asking for recommendations, asking someone to settle a debate or something you’re puzzling over, finding a connection/something in common, or giving compliments. Although these things may seem overly easy to folks who have never struggled with social anxiety, they can be huge accomplishments for people who have struggled with social anxiety. For example, if you’re at the grocery store, you might position yourself near someone new and make a comment that seemingly could be directed at them or at no one at all. Something like, “There are so many types of apples. How does anyone pick?” These types of openers are low stakes and give the other person a chance to respond and strike up a conversation or simply move on. In general, she reminded us that it’s a cognitive distortion to assume that people will find out attempts to talk to them irritating or burdensome. Most people appreciate positive attention and like being helpful. Or, if you’re at the grocery store, you might say “Oh, there are so many types of apples here today. I’m not sure which type to buy.” You can also ask strangers for advice; this can be effective because people like to be helpful and it sets them at ease. Angela has prepared a guide describing many valuable flirting skills which you can see if you click here! She also included some invaluable dating tips on avoiding dating the wrong people, safety, and more, which you can see if you CLICK HERE Angela explained many additional key concepts, like Angela explained many additional key concepts, like False time-constraints (taking the pressure off others by keeping initial asks for time short; keeping initial dates short to leave others wanting more) How to decide how much to share when deciding to try to deepen emotional intimacy. Physical and emotional intimacy—how much should you share, and when? Angela suggested that you can use a hierarchy of sharing – testing the waters by sharing things that aren’t too vulnerable for you. Then observe their responses. If they respond respectfully, you can go a bit deeper. So, in a sense, you are doing experiments to guide the ship. This is less stressful than thinking you are being judged and that you have to “perform.” It’s important NOT to chase. For example, once you start dating someone, you might say, “I can only date you once per week.” Then the other person can ask, “Well, why not twice a week?” Now you’re the chased, and not the chaser! Angela says that “It’s always smart to be a little less than 100% available.” It’s great to work to keep your life full and active so you can set these limits genuinely. I have shared some of these tips with young people who are dating. Sometimes they protest and say, “I shouldn’t have to play games like that.” Here’s my (David's) answer: “In fact you DON’T have to play games. And if your current approach is working well for you, that’s cool. But if you find you’re getting left behind too often, you might have to rethink your strategies, and stop believing that you know all the answers! Humans are manufactured to certain specifications—they are very predictable. And, if you’re smart, you can use that knowledge to your advantage, instead of being gullible and overly idealistic. Leigh provided more invaluable information on the important topic of safety when dating. She does not give out her phone number, and especially not her address, for the first X number of dates. Also, you need to attend to your instincts, such as “I have a funny feeling about this person, but I’m not sure why!” LISTEN to that inner voice. She advises, if you feel SAFE you can have more fun, greater freedom, and more enjoyment. Angela said you can also ask for consent before you touch, but you can do it in a flirty way, such as: “You look like you want to kiss me. Is that right?” Of, “I know I’ll really regret it if I don’t ask you to kiss me.” Leigh advised noticing body language. Where are they looking? Notice their eyes, and make contact with their eyes. Their eyes will nearly always be sending a signal. Leigh said that early in a potentially exciting relationship, you may be waiting for a signal from the other person between dates. For example, have they called or texted you? But you don’t have to wait. You can take the initiative. For example, you can send them a good night text, and see if they respond. You can even do it a couple times. This is a good experiment to see if there are some embers burning while you fan the flames a little. Thanks for listening today! Rhonda and I want to thank Angela and Leigh for such thoughtful and illuminating teaching. We hope it brings some courage and love into your life! Leigh, Angela, Rhonda, and David  

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