More or Less

Starting with a mini celebration: Dave defends his ski racing crown, before Sam declares software dead and capitalism broken. Even among GPs at Upfront Summit, the mood is uncertain: nobody knows whether to invest in software anymore, and many are quietly struggling to raise.The debate heats up over whether AI will democratize software creation or just accelerate capitalism's race to zero margins. Sam argues that when intelligence becomes abundant, it becomes worthless, making the entire AI industry, and by extension Silicon Valley, "pretty bad business." Dave counters that we're about to see a Cambrian explosion of software creators, finally giving billions of people agency over their digital lives.Plus: whether Stripe should buy PayPal during this opportunistic Trump-administration window, Gen Z panic-buying original iPods, Sam's shitposting-to-funding pipeline, and whether OnlyFans has the best KYC in fintechChapters:7:24 - Upfront Summit: Where Are All the LPs?
10:49 - Are VCs Still Investing in Software?
12:04 - Slow Ventures Going Contrarian: Investing While Others Freeze
13:27 - When Intelligence Goes to Zero: Why AI is Bad Business
15:53 - Polsia: $100K to $700K ARR in One Week (AI Agents Only)
19:39 - Capitalism's Black Hole: AI Makes Markets Too Efficient
25:00 - Creator Fund Thesis: Investing in Cults, Not Content
28:20 - Who Makes Money When Margins Hit Zero?
34:41 - Silicon Valley's Advantage is DEAD (The Magic Wizard Hat)
37:35 - Who Should Buy PayPal? (Stripe's One-Shot Window)
42:11 - Agentic Commerce: Do Payment Networks Even Matter?
45:18 - OpenAI Smart Speaker: Eddie Cue's Son Working on It
46:51 - Gen Z Buying Original iPods: The Analog Rebellion
We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

In this episode of More or Less, we go from Sam's urgent care drama to the hottest debates in AI. Dave dives into his news about joining the OpenClaw Foundation board as the fastest-growing open source project in internet history faces a new chapter. While the OpenClaw founder is heading to OpenAI, Meta is launching competing agents, and the battle for personal AI is officially ON. How the "Internet of Putting iPads on Things" era returning, Anthropic vs Pentagon drama, whether AI intelligence will become worthless like cheap electricity, and why your 'normie' friends will be sending you their vibe-coded apps within 12 months.

Chapters:
3:02 Sam's Ski Injury Saga
5:00 OpenClaw Founder Going To OpenAI & Dave's Foundation Role
8:07 OpenClaw vs. Manus (On-Device vs. Cloud)
11:02 Vibe Coding: Building an App a Day
12:03 Meta vs. OpenAI Rivalry
22:00 The Fundraising Market: Mega Rounds & Narrative Capitalism
27:04 The Big Debate: Bay Area Engineers in 3 Years
41:01 Anthropic vs. The Pentagon
45:01 Intelligence as a Commodity
53:50 Tennis with Madison Keys plug

We’re also on ↓
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Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless
YouTube: https://youtu.be/3CewrGGMjRI

Connect with us here:
1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin
2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin
3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin
4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

We're recording this from Jackson Hole after three days of wheeling and dealing—and yes, canceling meetings for powder. This week we're going deep on OpenClaw. The meetup had 1,500 people show up (Kevin Rose, Marissa Mayer, Ashton Kutcher were some notable guests). And now we're all spending thousands of dollars a month on AI agents we've named after Friends characters while debating whether "developer" is even a job title anymore.We talk about:•⁠ ⁠Why founders are working 24/7 and possibly burning out•⁠ ⁠The decentralized AI future (and why it's not great for OpenAI)•⁠ ⁠Dark software factories where only agents write code•⁠ ⁠Whether everyone's jobs are about to disappear (spoiler: we disagree)•⁠ ⁠The SaaS-pocalypse coming for legacy software•⁠ ⁠Personal AI sovereignty and why Apple's just sitting back laughingAlso: Google's CC assistant is… fine? And we have strong opinions about Heated Rivalry.Chapters:0:00 - Intro: Skiing in Jackson Hole2:30 - Conference Takeaways: Founders Are Working Relentlessly 7:15 - AI Burnout & the 24/7 Work Cycle12:40 - Naming Your AI Agents (Friends Edition)15:20 - How Much Are You Spending on Bots?18:45 - Google CC Assistant Review22:10 - OpenClaw Meetup: 1500 People Show Up28:30 - What Even Is a Developer Anymore?35:50 - OpenAI vs Decentralized AI: The Big Debate42:15 - Personal AI & Data Sovereignty47:20 - Dark Software Factories & Agentic Engineering52:10 - Are All the Jobs Going Away?55:40 - The SaaS Apocalypse58:20 - Pop Culture: Heated Rivalry, Nancy Guthrie Case, StrangersWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/KUA7ue5vB1EConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

This week on More or Less, three-quarters of the squad goes full AI-agent mode with Morin’s ClawCon, Sam’s LinkedIn bots, and Brit’s bot-agent-supervisor. We kick things off with The Information’s breaking story (and potentially trade of the year): Elon’s $1.2T SpaceX + xAI merger. Then we unpack why Jess thinks Jeff Bezos should sell The Washington Post, why media has to own the audience, and how “vibe buys,” cult capitalism, and winner-take-all narratives are still the real moats shaping where money flows. The Dead Internet Theory starts feeling uncomfortably real and we touch on why the future swings back to IRL and community-driven experiences. Plus: the Super Bowl in NorCal, Brit’s Grammys rundown, and a cameo teaser.Chapters:00:53 – Dave and MSG’s ClawCon04:05 – Super Bowl Week in NorCal04:31 – Today’s Agenda: SpaceX + xAI, WaPo Layoffs, AI Fatigue, Super Bowl Week in NorCal05:33 – SpaceX + xAI Merger: Elon’s Narrative Assets and the Deal’s Winners & Losers17:27 – Washington Post Layoffs and Why Bezos Should Sell21:19 – Google Cloud Crushes Earnings22:22 – B2B vs. B2C: Is OpenAI Throwing Spaghetti at the Wall?29:44 – Claude’s “No Ads” Jab at OpenAI32:12 – The Squad’s OpenClaw Experiments41:39 – Dead Internet Theory45:55 – Super Bowl Logistics47:26 – Pop Culture Corner: Grammys Recap49:08 – Disney Names Parks Leader as CEOWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/sbhGfYsFUlsConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Jessica is back from Davos and is recapping her highlights on the pod this week. If you’re a loyal podcast ‘viewer’, you’re in luck because Jess also brought photos from a recent Grace Cathedral sound bath visit before she dives deep into the Clawdbot/Moltbot/agentic moment. Dave is all in on what’s to come in this new age of agentic computers, and in true Sam fashion, he is less impressed by the technology and suggests that if the trend continues, it’s going to be bye bye internet. In the land of the other ‘mature’ AI companies, Jess recaps her Davos AI infra panel’s red-pill take on AI with the killer quote of the week: “the appetite for intelligence is limitless.” But how true is all this demand and how much of it is really narrative? Could the rise in gold and silver prices really be a sign of technology shorting? The crew also reacts to the Minneapolis situation, debating whether it’s a scaling issue at ICE or a political move. Chapters:00:30 — Jess Returns From Davos: No Snow, All SXSW Energy 03:40 — Grace Cathedral Sound Baths06:25 — Moltbot Heat Spike: Are AI Agents Ending the Internet? 17:29 — Moltbot Has no Moat; Founders Should Be Memorable Instead21:26 — Inside the Davos AI Panel: CoreWeave, G42, OpenAI & BlackRock’s Red Pill 29:47 — Minneapolis, ICE, and How the Valley Is Reacting 51:03 — The AI Chatbot Trap for Retail (And Why Everyone Will Fall for It) We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/OZDFAvRq7GcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit