The Modern Man Podcast

"A salary is a drug they give you to forget your dreams." Steve Rolle — Army officer, $100 million builder, author of The Future You Choose — joins Ted Phaeton on The Modern Man Podcast to break down how capable men end up stuck in jobs they chose, and the four-part filter for building something that actually sets you free.
Steve grew up one of seven kids on one income in the DC area — he remembers his dad emptying his piggy bank for bread and cheese, and the church food drive showing up at his own door. He left for California, trained as an Army officer, house-hacked his way to seed capital, built a side hustle to $30K a month while holding a day job, turned down a $6M acquisition with a $6M earnout, and still owns the business.
In this conversation: why poor kids split into two risk tolerances, small calculated bets vs. one big bet, why your day job is your investor, the four dependencies that keep men stuck (and the question — what happened between you choosing the job and being stuck in it?), the "good enough" trap and the moment Steve almost took it, the four-part filter for any business idea (product / margin / distribution / customer acquisition), why most men who escape the 9-5 build a bigger cage, the four engines that get you out of your own business, and the question every man should sit with: at what point do your problems become your fault?
Plus Ted's story — asking for a day off for a birthday party, being told no, and realizing what that meant.
 
Chapters:
00:00 A salary is a drug 00:59 Welcome — Steve Rolle 
01:47 The piggy bank — realizing we were poor 04:51 Two risk tolerances come out of poverty
 07:54 Poker tournaments, house-hacking, and the five-year divide 
10:30 Why "back against the wall" usually fails 
11:52 Small calculated bets — how the masses actually win 
13:10 Ted: risk is a budget line / the bird on the branch 
15:20 Freedom, not money — and why 9-5 vs. business is the wrong question 
16:52 "What happened between choosing the job and being stuck in it?" 
17:38 The happiest employees are always interviewing 
20:00 Reverse-engineer your way out of dependency
21:12 YOUR DAY JOB IS YOUR INVESTOR 
24:17 The lie ambitious men tell themselves 
25:30 Where did you lose the dream? 
26:20 "A salary is a drug they give you to forget your dreams"
 26:40 Steve took a day job at $30K/month — and almost stayed 
29:20 The $6M + $6M offer he turned down 
30:47 The right question for when to quit 
32:50 Ted's birthday-party "no" 
34:32 "You forgot you were a slave"
 36:27 Don't build a bigger cage 
36:48 THE FOUR-PART FILTER 
38:22 The four engines 
41:07 Money, technology, people — the three levers 
42:37 Give away the important stuff 
44:00 Build the process → hire the people → get out of the way 
45:40 Never sell — compound interest 
46:51 Lightning: when did the business need you too much? 
47:55 Lightning: protecting the family 
49:04 Lightning: what he does Saturday morning 
51:11 "At what point do your problems become your fault?" 
52:48 Ted's recap
 
🤝 Connect with Steve Rolle: 
Web: steverolle.com
Book: The Future You Choose 
(Amazon) Social: @rollewithsteve
 
👉🏿  About The Modern Man: The Modern Man is here to provide the structural discipline required for men to scale their impact while enforcing a strict sovereign life.
 
Tools of Time Course: Master your daily structure: Tools of Time
 
Free eBook Here: Mastering Self-Development: Strategies of the New Masculine: https://rebrand.ly/m2ebook
 
⚔️JOIN THE NOBLE KNIGHTS MASTERMIND⚔️
https://themodernmanpodcast.com/thenobleknights 
 
🫱🏿‍🫲🏾CONNECT WITH THE MODERN MAN🫱🏿‍🫲🏾
Visit our website: themodernmanshow.com
Follow us on Twitter: TheModernMan8 
Follow us on Instagram: @TheModernManShow 
Subscribe to our YouTube channel: The Modern Man

Chris Voss's book made Ted Phaeton $25,000 on a single contract — so he got the FBI's former lead international kidnapping negotiator on The Modern Man Podcast to find out why the same tactics that work on bank robbers work on bosses, clients, and wives. Never Split the Difference author Chris Voss breaks down tactical empathy, the neuroscience of feeling understood, and why "win-win" is a lie that costs you.
Voss spent 24 years with the FBI, led international kidnapping negotiations, and now runs The Black Swan Group. In this conversation he walks through the oxytocin mechanism behind connection (feel understood → more honest → less demanding), the two mental switches to flip before a hard conversation (curiosity and gratitude), the late-night FM DJ voice and the Chase Manhattan Bank standoff where it got a gunman to say "I trust you" in ninety seconds, why compromise guarantees both sides are unhappy, the Christmas-tree story that shows what to do instead, why empathy is a man's tool and Rick Rubin is its living definition, the hijack moments that kill listening ("I understand" and "Feel, Felt, Found"), "that's right" vs. "you're right," why "no" makes people feel safe, and why a collaborative negotiation pays off for years after the deal closes.
Plus: Ted's full $25K negotiation story, the general manager who came out to shake his hand, and Chris on girl-dad shotgun etiquette.
Chapters:
00:00 The $25,000 receipt 
01:11 Welcome — Chris Voss 
01:14 Ted's contract story 
02:20 Why hostage tactics work in the boardroom — the oxytocin mechanism 
04:40 "The need to feel understood is as important as the need to be loved" 
06:32 Tactical empathy when you're tired, hurt, and annoyed 
08:42 Damasio — emotion first, logic second ("that's the cornerstone") 
09:54 Two switches before a hard conversation: curiosity and gratitude 
10:46 Sean Stevenson — "This is happening for me, not to me" 
11:30 THE LATE-NIGHT FM DJ VOICE 
12:58 Chase Manhattan Bank — "I trust you" in 90 seconds 
16:29 "I'm coachable" — the second set of ears 
19:11 WHY WIN-WIN IS A LIE 
21:12 "Why don't we compromise? That way we'll both be unhappy." 
22:18 The Christmas-tree story — dig into motivation 
26:13 Empathy is not sympathy — the quicksand rule 
27:40 Rick Rubin — the living definition of empathy 
29:40 Empathy is a man's tool — the Rock of Gibraltar 
30:04 Girl-dad shotgun etiquette 
30:52 The Savvy Whisperer 
32:48 LISTENING IS COMPREHENSION — the hijack moments 
34:15 "Feel, Felt, Found" is a hijack 
37:04 "THAT'S RIGHT" vs. "YOU'RE RIGHT" 
40:03 "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" 
40:47 WHY "NO" MAKES PEOPLE FEEL SAFE 
42:20 Tim Ross — switching from yes-momentum to no
 45:56 Ted said no three times 48:04 Collaboration, not manipulation — intention has a smell 
51:16 The Art and Science of Tactical Empathy 2026 — Nov 3 + certifications
54:39 The heaviest question
55:55 Ted's recap
 
🤝 Connect with Chris Voss:
Book: Never Split the Difference Course: The Art and Science of Tactical Empathy 2026 — live online, starts November 3 (first-ever certification track)
Website: blackswanltd.com
Instagram:
@blackswangroupltd
@thefbinegotiator
Tools of Time Course: Master your daily structure: Tools of Time
Free eBook Here: Mastering Self-Development: Strategies of the New Masculine: https://rebrand.ly/m2ebook
⚔️JOIN THE NOBLE KNIGHTS MASTERMIND⚔️
https://themodernmanpodcast.com/thenobleknights 
🫱🏿‍🫲🏾CONNECT WITH THE MODERN MAN🫱🏿‍🫲🏾
Visit our website: themodernmanshow.com
Follow us on Twitter: TheModernMan8 
Follow us on Instagram: @TheModernManShow 
Subscribe to our YouTube channel: The Modern Man

My uncle left Haiti with nothing but faith. Bishop Daniel Phaeton — "Papi Daniel" to everyone who loves him — joins his nephew Ted Phaeton on The Modern Man Podcast for the most personal episode in the show's history. A man who built a life, a marriage of 58 years, and a ministry in America, and who now spends what he has building a free school for impoverished children in El Salvador.
 
Papi Daniel came to America from Haiti as a young man with an engineering dream and a wife expecting their first child in a Chicago winter — so he joined the Army during the Vietnam era to provide. He was baptized in Belton, Texas by a pastor who is still his pastor today. He pastored for 20 years. In 2020, a blood clot lodged between the chambers of his heart, his lungs 80% blocked, and he gave a surgeon permission to perform a procedure that could save him or kill him — awake. He walked out on the Tuesday after Easter. Everything he says in this episode comes after that.
 
In this conversation: growing up shaped by necessities vs. a generation shaped by opportunities, being well-to-do in principles when you're not well-to-do in money, why "who you are is what you share," building from reality instead of hope, why life is an equilibrium and not a balance scale (and how to set your margin), obligations vs. priorities for fathers, the handwritten-note challenge (Ted doesn't pass), loving your wife "for you" vs. loving her as Christ loves, learning to be a pedestal, the courage to stop hiding, "I just stopped being stupid," why he's building in El Salvador and not Haiti, and the promise he made about every breath.
 
Chapters:
00:00 Well-to-Do in Principles
01:36 Welcome — Papi Daniel
02:11 Necessities vs. Opportunities
04:28 Who You Are Is What You Share
07:01 Providing Through Hardship
08:39 Where Faith Began
11:29 Leaving Haiti
13:02 Dreams vs. Reality
15:38 Grandma's Piano Story
18:45 Build on Reality, Not Hope
23:38 Finding Balance in Life
27:36 Obligations vs. Priorities
30:01 The Handwritten Note
32:55 The Army and Christ
34:59 Facing the Enemy
38:21 Hiding From God
40:40 The Courage to Stop Hiding
42:44 Ted Connects the Lessons
45:00 Learning to Love Selflessly
46:35 Learn to Be a Pedestal
48:40 Applying God's Word
52:20 I Just Stopped Being Stupid
53:09 Uncle or Pastor?
57:06 Living for Today vs. Tomorrow
1:01:37 A Vision Bigger Than Me
1:04:12 A Better Future for Haiti
1:06:39 How to Help
1:08:58 Ted Honors His Uncle
1:11:11 The Next Breath
1:14:23 The Hospital and the Promise
1:19:47 Ted's Recap
 
🤝 Support Papi Daniel's vision: Bethesda Apostolic Center — bethesdahope.org $40/month supports one child: education, daily lunch, and uniform. Classes begin January.
 
👉🏿  About The Modern Man: The Modern Man is here to provide the structural discipline required for men to scale their impact while enforcing a strict, sovereign life.
 
Tools of Time Course: Master your daily structure: Tools of Time
 
Free eBook Here:
Mastering Self-Development: Strategies of the New Masculine: https://rebrand.ly/m2ebook
 
⚔️JOIN THE NOBLE KNIGHTS MASTERMIND⚔️
https://themodernmanpodcast.com/thenobleknights 
 
🫱🏿‍🫲🏾CONNECT WITH THE MODERN MAN🫱🏿‍🫲🏾
Visit our website: themodernmanshow.com
Follow us on Twitter: TheModernMan8 
Follow us on Instagram: @TheModernManShow 
Subscribe to our YouTube channel: The Modern Man

Kevin Orosz — high-performance coach, retreat facilitator, spoken word poet, and co-author of Sex Masculinity God — went from materialist psychology grad, to full-woo cotton-cape-in-Bali era (ayahuasca, Lakota sweat lodges, peyote), and back to the middle. On The Modern Man Podcast with Ted Phaeton, he unpacks the Polarity Framework, the "whose voice is that" identity reframe, and why the answer to modern masculinity is playing with the full deck — not half.
Kevin runs The Fellowship (men's community) and The Polarity Lab (for men, women, singles, and couples) and hosts The KO Show podcast. In this conversation he walks through the unapologetic generalist path (and when to be one), why every successful person hypnotizes themselves (Kobe, MJ, Bruce Lee, Hormozi — same practice), Joseph Campbell's rule for cutting your own path through the woods, the ping-pong journey from Western materialism to Eastern mysticism and back to the balanced middle, the Polarity Framework (masculine and feminine as two channels — choose your dominant pole and live from it), the inner-circuit vs outer-circuit tribal division of labor (women run the village, men run the perimeter), the E.O. Wilson trap (Paleolithic emotions + medieval institutions + god-like tech), and the bonfire moment that anchors the whole masculine experience.
Plus: how to tell if you've lost your edge, why the modern comfort zone is quietly emasculating men, why lone-wolfing costs more than most men realize, how to know if you should specialize or generalize, the difference between the fear-of-rejection ceiling and the actual ceiling in your career, and the practical question every married man should be asking his wife tonight.
 
Chapters:
00:00 Whose Voice Is That?
01:30 Welcome to The Modern Man Podcast
03:24 The Unapologetic Generalist
05:41 Break the Rules Like an Artist
08:47 Joseph Campbell: Find Your Own Path
10:37 The Life You Haven't Lived
14:54 Reclaiming Your Edge
17:06 Whose Voice Is That? — Identity
20:18 The Power of Self-Hypnosis
22:33 Who's Controlling Your Attention?
24:26 The Spiritual Journey
26:27 East Meets West
29:23 The Polarity Framework
31:38 Choose Your Dominant Pole
33:04 Losing Your Masculine Polarity
37:21 Ted's Birthday Scavenger Hunt
39:31 Inner vs. Outer Circuit
41:50 Ancient Emotions, Modern Technology
43:14 The Body Is the Foundation
44:00 Where to Find Kevin
46:08 The Bonfire: What Men Need
47:27 Ted's Recap
 
🤝 Connect with Kevin Orosz:
Facebook: kevinoroszlan
Instagram:
the fellowship brotherhood
kevinjorosz
LinkedIn: kevinorosz
Linktree: kev_oroszlan
 
👉🏿  About The Modern Man: The Modern Man is here to provide the structural discipline required for men to scale their impact while enforcing a strict sovereign life.
 
Tools of Time Course: Master your daily structure: Tools of Time
 
Free eBook Here: Mastering Self-Development: Strategies of the New Masculine: https://rebrand.ly/m2ebook
 
⚔️JOIN THE NOBLE KNIGHTS MASTERMIND⚔️
https://themodernmanpodcast.com/thenobleknights 
 
🫱🏿‍🫲🏾CONNECT WITH THE MODERN MAN🫱🏿‍🫲🏾
Visit our website: themodernmanshow.com
Follow us on Twitter: TheModernMan8 
Follow us on Instagram: @TheModernManShow 
Subscribe to our YouTube channel: The Modern Man

Pat Barber trained everyone from beginners to elite CrossFit Games athletes for 20+ years — and none of it prepared him for the real work of raising four boys. He joins Ted Phaeton on The Modern Man Podcast to unpack the family motto that became his brand, the co-regulation truth every dad needs to hear, and why fathers don't need more motivation or information — they need action.
 
Pat is a longtime fitness coach and the founder of The Father's Guild (a men's community on Skool launching alongside this episode). His signature family motto — Harder to Kill, Easier to Love — is the two-dimensional standard he's helping fathers build their lives around.
 
In this conversation: why parenthood is your next opponent (and it's not your kid, it's you), the four-nervous-system reality of raising four boys (each one progressively harder), the fatherhood regulation stack (movement + food + personal time + honesty at every level), the 9.99-vs-12.99 confession that revealed even his own "little lies" were undermining his regulation, why fathers need action instead of more information, the self-efficacy ladder from Dr. Bandura (vicarious experiences + verbal persuasion + community + small successes), Pat's contrarian reframe that "the gym is fake stress" and why training to "look good naked" is short-sighted, distress vs. eustress (recovery is what turns stress into growth), Victor Frankl's rule that any amount of suffering fills the human soul equally, and Pat's honest closing answer about his own damaged relationship with money and clout.
 
Chapters:
00:00 Your Next Opponent Is You
01:29 Welcome Brother — Ted's Intro
03:48 Harder to Kill, Easier to Love
06:32 Ted's Girl-Dad Range
08:09 The Parenting Realization
11:19 The Unspoken Communication Shift
13:10 Co-Regulation
14:31 Four Boys, Four Nervous Systems
18:17 The Fatherhood Regulation Stack
20:13 Why Pat Started Waking Up Early
22:59 Honesty as the Foundation
25:42 The $9.99 vs. $12.99 Confession
27:16 Fathers Need Action, Not Information
31:31 Self-Efficacy — The Ignition Switch
32:31 Vicarious Experiences & Small Wins
36:17 The Gym Is Fake Stress
37:20 The Anti-Vanity Callout
39:22 Ted on Hyrox Training
42:55 Distress vs. Eustress
45:41 Breath Work
48:11 Frankl's Rule on Suffering
50:42 The Nines and Tens of Life
51:02 Where to Find Pat
52:20 The Heaviest Question
56:56 Ted's Recap
 
🤝 Connect with Pat Barber: 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thefathersguild
Website: https://www.thefathersguild.com/
The Tool Box : https://toolbox.thefathersguild.com/
Community: The Father's Guild on Skool Everywhere: 
Join The Guild
skool.com: Thefathersguild



👉🏿  About The Modern Man: The Modern Man is here to provide the structural discipline required for men to scale their impact while enforcing a strict sovereign life.
 
Tools of Time Course: Master your daily structure: Tools of Time
 
Free eBook Here: Mastering Self-Development: Strategies of the New Masculine: https://rebrand.ly/m2ebook
 
⚔️JOIN THE NOBLE KNIGHTS MASTERMIND⚔️
https://themodernmanpodcast.com/thenobleknights 
 
🫱🏿‍🫲🏾CONNECT WITH THE MODERN MAN🫱🏿‍🫲🏾
Visit our website: themodernmanshow.com
Follow us on Twitter: TheModernMan8 
Follow us on Instagram: @TheModernManShow 
Subscribe to our YouTube channel: The Modern Man
 
#modernmanpodcast #nobleknights #patbarber #fatherhood #hardertokill #mensmentalhealth #dadlife