The Successful Bookkeeper Podcast

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Customer experience expert Shep Hyken is back, and this conversation cuts straight to one of the most stubborn problems in the bookkeeping profession: the race to the bottom on price. Shep lays out why competing as a commodity is a choice — and a dangerous one — and gives bookkeepers a practical framework for building client relationships that make price almost irrelevant.

Chapters

[00:00] Welcome and what has changed

[02:35] AI, automation, and human jobs

[06:30] The commodity trap explained

[10:00] Competing on experience not price

[13:00] Panera and moving humans to high-impact roles

[16:00] Making routine interactions memorable

[19:00] The six-step I'll Be Back framework

[25:00] Journey mapping your client touchpoints

[28:00] Consistency is what amazing looks like

[30:00] Free resources from Shep Hyken

The Commodity Trap Is a Choice You Make

When a client sees you as a commodity, they're looking at your price, not the value of the experience you deliver. Shep argues that most bookkeepers already have the expertise to serve virtually any client well — so expertise alone no longer differentiates you. "Somebody that views you as a commodity is looking at your price, not just the experience that you have to offer." The solution isn't to slash rates; it's to make the relationship so strong that price becomes a secondary consideration. Competitive pricing and lowest pricing are not the same thing.

AI Amplifies Who You Already Are

Shep is clear that AI and automation aren't going away, but the firms quietly losing ground are the ones that have over-automated and stripped out the human element. He describes his own CPA firm eliminating his year-end review meeting in favor of a digital questionnaire — and how that single change made him start shopping around. "By going automated and not having that meeting, they just threw themselves into a commodity." The better move is to use automation to absorb the repetitive, low-touch tasks so you have more capacity for meaningful client conversations — not fewer.

The Six Questions That Build an "I'll Be Back" Experience

Shep walks through his six-step framework for understanding why clients choose you, why they might choose a competitor instead, and how to borrow ideas from outside your industry to raise your own standard. The exercise ends by asking: after everything you've learned, does your answer to "why me?" change? He also points to Amazon's order-confirmation model as an example bookkeepers can adapt — proactive, personal communication that keeps clients informed and feeling looked after.

Journey Mapping: Find the Pain Before Your Client Does

One of the most practical ideas in this episode is journey mapping every touchpoint a client has with your firm — from how the phone is answered to how the monthly invoice lands. Shep uses the example of restaurateur Will Guidara, who turned paying the bill at a high-end restaurant into a moment guests couldn't wait to tell their friends about. The same thinking applies to bookkeeping: "Find where those memorable opportunities are." There are moments in every client relationship — onboarding, monthly reporting, the annual review — that feel routine to you but could be genuinely memorable for them.

Consistency Is What "Amazing" Actually Looks Like

Shep closes with a reframe that is easy to miss: you don't need to be dramatically better than the competition. You need to be consistently and predictably better than average. "When that word always creeps in there — they always get back to me quickly, they always have the answers — you are operating above average." Trust is built through repetition, not grand gestures. Clients who can rely on you without having to think about it are clients who never seriously consider leaving.

Links Mentioned

Hyken.com — Free annual customer experience research report and the Customer Confidence Score PDF (no email required)

"Unreasonable Hospitality" by Will Guidara — Referenced for journey mapping and memorable experience design

Pure Bookkeeping — Episode sponsor: purebookkeeping.com

The Successful Bookkeeper — Show home and episode resources: thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com

About the Guest

Shep Hyken is the Chief Amazement Officer at Shepard Presentations and a hall-of-fame keynote speaker and New York Times bestselling author specializing in customer service and experience. He has advised organizations across industries on building loyalty, reducing churn, and creating cultures where clients feel genuinely cared for. Shep is a returning guest on The Successful Bookkeeper and brings research-backed, immediately actionable thinking every time he joins the show.

About the host
Michael Palmer
Michael Palmer is the host of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and co-founder of Pure Bookkeeping and The Successful Bookkeeper. He started this work because of his father — a brilliant electrical contractor who worked twice as hard as he should have had to, because nobody on the financial side was in his corner. That gap is what The Successful Bookkeeper exists to close. His view: bookkeepers are the most undervalued force in small business — and every bookkeeper who builds a real business changes two families: theirs, and their clients'.

See what the team at The Successful Bookkeeper has on right now →

This is the second and final part of Michael Palmer's conversation with Andrew Seguin, founder of Seguin Financial. If you want a candid look at how a bookkeeping firm doubles revenue without a big advertising budget, this episode delivers. Andrew walks through the real levers he pulls: a four-day workweek that keeps his team loyal, a disciplined approach to scope creep, and a referral engine built entirely on great service.

Chapters

[00:00] Introduction and Episode Recap

[01:18] Four-Day Workweek Announcement

[03:30] Andrew's Fridays: A Work in Progress

[05:30] Scope Creep: How to Catch and Address It

[09:30] Time Tracking as a Profitability Tool

[12:00] How the Firm Doubled Revenue

[15:00] Partnerships and Referral Strategy

[18:00] Service as the Real Differentiator

[21:30] Going Virtual Across Ontario

[24:30] Final Advice: Start With Something

The Four-Day Workweek in Practice

Andrew made the switch to a Monday–Thursday, 36-hour week — with no pay cut for his team. "Working one hour extra per day doesn't feel as a big burden, but you get a whole day off every week, all year long," he explains. The response from clients has been overwhelmingly positive, and the retention impact has been real. For Andrew himself, it has gradually freed up his Fridays too — without the guilt of stepping away while his team is still at their desks.

Catching Scope Creep Before It Costs You

Andrew's approach to scope creep starts with the team: coach them to flag anything that feels different from the usual work, then back it up with time tracking so the numbers tell the story. Rather than hitting a client with a hard "that's out of scope," his firm offers two paths — "we can show you how to do it yourself, or we can have a conversation about a monthly increase to accommodate this." That framing keeps the conversation collaborative, not combative, and gets results either way.

Partnerships and Referrals as a Growth Engine

Seguin Financial grew from around a million dollars to double that in roughly 2.5 years — without meaningful advertising spend. The fuel? Strategic partnerships with fractional CFOs, outreach to franchise head offices, and a deliberate focus on asking the firm's best clients for referrals. "Our easiest client to take on is a referral," Andrew says, "because they've done probably so much work behind the scenes that at that point it's almost inevitable that they're going to become a client." Referrals arrive pre-sold — and they rarely price-shop.

Service Is What Clients Can Actually See

Andrew draws a clear line between quality of work and quality of service — and argues that for most clients, only one of those is visible. "Business owners are probably not going to always look at our reports. They might not really care a lot about the quality of the work. But the service they can see." Being responsive — not available at 8 PM, but back within 24 hours with an action plan — has moved Seguin Financial into a different tier in the eyes of their clients and made referrals far more frequent.

Start With Something, Then Let the Data Lead

Andrew's parting advice is straightforward: start tracking, even if it's just two spreadsheets. "Without time tracking, you're blind. You're honestly blind to which clients are doing very well for you and doing pretty poorly for you." He reviews his firm's analytics every month, makes a video for the team, calls out wins, and flags what to watch. That monthly discipline is what keeps the firm's profitability from quietly eroding — and what surfaces the clients worth doubling down on.

Links Mentioned

The Successful Bookkeeper

PureBookkeeping

Seguin Financial — find Andrew on LinkedIn

About the Guest

Andrew Seguin is the founder of Seguin Financial, a virtual bookkeeping firm based in Cornwall, Ontario, Canada. With over eight years in the business, Andrew has grown his firm to serve clients across Ontario, with a focus on e-commerce and owner-operated businesses. He is known in the bookkeeping community for his data-driven approach to profitability and his commitment to building a firm culture that keeps great people around for the long haul.

About the host
Michael Palmer
Michael Palmer is the host of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and co-founder of Pure Bookkeeping and The Successful Bookkeeper. He started this work because of his father — a brilliant electrical contractor who worked twice as hard as he should have had to, because nobody on the financial side was in his corner. That gap is what The Successful Bookkeeper exists to close. His view: bookkeepers are the most undervalued force in small business — and every bookkeeper who builds a real business changes two families: theirs, and their clients'.

See what the team at The Successful Bookkeeper has on right now →

Andrew Seguin was already running a strong bookkeeping firm when he last appeared on this podcast — at $1 million in revenue with a team of eight. Two and a half years later, he's back with a $2 million firm and a team of fifteen. In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, Andrew walks through the real work behind that growth: the systems he built, the delegation habits he had to form, and the profitability metrics that changed how he runs everything.

Chapters

[00:00] Opening quote on delegation

[00:42] Introducing Andrew Seguin

[02:30] From $1M to $2M: the story

[05:30] Getting out of the weeds

[09:00] Building training systems that scale

[13:00] Managing change without overwhelming the team

[17:00] Introducing the effective hourly rate

[23:00] Building the profitability dashboard

[28:00] Time tracking: getting team buy-in

[34:00] Pricing strategy and the 3-month clause

Getting Out of the Weeds

Even after hitting $1 million, Andrew was still deep in the day-to-day — doing bookkeeping, managing clients directly, and holding too much tax knowledge himself. The path to $2 million required him to deliberately reduce his own workload. "I was probably still doing a lot of day-to-day work," he says. "I knew I had some goals for '24 and '25, which was to reduce my own workload." That meant hiring a dedicated payroll team, bringing on a tax specialist, and doubling down on the pod structure — senior and junior team members working together as a unit.

Delegation Starts With Systems, Not Just Trust

One of Andrew's clearest lessons: delegation without a proper training system is just dumping work on people. He invested heavily in building a training package so that new hires could learn the firm's tools, standards, and workflows without having to figure things out from scratch. "You spend a little bit of time upfront — it's always hard because you have to find time to do it. But once you get over that hump, that's where things really start cascading into a really strong effect." He also cautions against piling on too much change in a single year, aiming instead for one meaningful improvement goal per year so the team isn't overwhelmed.

The Effective Hourly Rate: A Metric That Changed Everything

The single biggest profitability driver Andrew introduced was tracking each client's effective hourly rate (EHR) — revenue divided by hours worked on that file. His firm uses ClickUp for time tracking and QuickBooks Online for revenue data, feeding into a custom-built dashboard that shows the team exactly where they stand, client by client. "We essentially cut about 10% of our clients and then priced up about 40% of our clients to a rate that we wanted internally." The target range is $125–$150 per hour, minimum. Before this system, the firm's average was around $106–$108 per hour. After 18 months of using the data, it's closer to $250.

Transparent Data, Aligned Teams

Andrew doesn't hide this metric from his staff. The management team sees it. The bookkeepers who work on those files are aware of it. When a client's EHR falls short, the conversation isn't about poor performance — it's about scope creep, underestimated complexity, or pricing that needs revisiting. He also ties compensation growth directly to hitting those rates, so the team has a real reason to track their time accurately. "I'm very transparent — you guys wouldn't have these increases the way you have been getting for the last 3 years if we didn't have this data."

Pricing, Minimums, and the 3-Month Revisit Clause

Andrew's pricing approach is a hybrid of fixed and value-based: estimate the hours, multiply by the target EHR, then add complexity factors like multi-currency, e-commerce, or payroll. The firm's minimum for monthly engagements is $1,000, with an average around $1,600. Critically, every new engagement includes a clause allowing the firm to revisit pricing after three months — when actual time and complexity data is in hand. "We've had to do that a few times because there is no perfect system. A questionnaire and a quick conversation isn't going to tell you enough about the complexities and the volume of the file."

Links Mentioned

PureBookkeeping — episode sponsor

The Successful Bookkeeper — resources and episode archive

ClickUp — project and time-tracking tool used by Seguin Financial

About the Guest

Andrew Seguin is the founder of Seguin Financial, a virtual bookkeeping firm based in Canada with a team of fifteen full-time staff. Over eight and a half years, Andrew grew his firm from a solo side practice to a $2 million business, built around strong systems, transparent team culture, and data-driven client management. He is a frequent speaker and educator in the bookkeeping community.

About the host
Michael Palmer
Michael Palmer is the host of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and co-founder of Pure Bookkeeping and The Successful Bookkeeper. He started this work because of his father — a brilliant electrical contractor who worked twice as hard as he should have had to, because nobody on the financial side was in his corner. That gap is what The Successful Bookkeeper exists to close. His view: bookkeepers are the most undervalued force in small business — and every bookkeeper who builds a real business changes two families: theirs, and their clients'.

See what the team at The Successful Bookkeeper has on right now →

Amanda McKinney is back, and this conversation picks up right where the field is most uncomfortable: the place where your own capability quietly becomes the ceiling on your growth. If you've ever thought "it's faster if I just do it myself," this episode was made for you. Amanda brings her accountability coaching lens to the real-world pressures bookkeepers face — the revolving door of client work, the resistance to delegation, and the habits that quietly drain capacity before burnout ever arrives.

Chapters

[00:00] The 3-Times System Rule

[01:18] Welcome and Guest Introduction

[03:30] Amanda's Journey Since 2023

[08:30] Working With Teams Long-Term

[13:00] When Capability Becomes an Obstacle

[17:00] Warning Signs of Unsustainable Pace

[21:00] The Case for Hobbies

[25:00] Building Systems to Delegate

[29:00] SOPs in Practice: Quarterly Taxes

[32:30] Amanda's Podcast Pause

The Highly Capable Trap

Being good at your work is a genuine asset — right up until it isn't. Amanda explains that capability creates capacity, and capacity gets filled. "The problem with being capable is that it opens up more capacity. And when you have more capacity, you get more work. Either it's given to you or you give it to yourself." For bookkeepers, where the work never truly stops, this cycle can accelerate fast. Recognizing the pattern is the first step out of it.

Warning Signs Worth Watching

Amanda walks through the early signals that something needs to change — before burnout forces the issue. Physical heaviness when someone asks how you're doing, or the moment you realize your only answer to "what do you do for fun?" is your work. She shared that in 2024, that was her own reality. "I realized, oh my gosh, I have no hobbies. I don't have anything that I do just for fun." Intentionally adding even 15 minutes of something non-work-related a week can start shifting that.

The 3-Times Rule for Systems

This is the practical core of the episode. Amanda's rule of thumb: if you do something more than 3 times, it needs a system. She uses invoicing as a quick gut-check — if you can't describe your process fast, you're spending unnecessary brainpower every single time. The fix is straightforward: the next time you do that task, record yourself walking through it using a screen recorder like Loom or Neato (free). That recording becomes your SOP, and that SOP becomes your delegation tool. She applied this to her own quarterly tax payments: "I did it in like 15 minutes. Whereas that would have taken me an hour or two if I didn't have those steps written out."

Delegation Without the Dread

Most bookkeepers resist handing work off because training someone else feels slower than doing it themselves. Amanda reframes this: a documented system removes most of that training burden. The SOP does the heavy lifting, and the person you're delegating to — whether human or software — gets a clear path to follow your standards. As Michael put it during the conversation, "SOPs are the pathway to profitability."

Sustainable Growth Requires a Pause

Amanda recently did something that surprised her own audience: she intentionally paused her podcast after eight straight years of weekly content. The flood of concerned emails she received made her realize how rarely people pause before something forces them to. The message for bookkeepers is the same — growth that lasts has to be built on something sustainable. Waiting for a crisis to rest isn't a strategy. "You don't have to be burnt out before you make a decision to change something."

Links Mentioned

Loom — screen and voice recording tool for creating SOPs

Neeto — free alternative screen recording tool (used by The Successful Bookkeeper team)

purebookkeeping.com — episode sponsor; system to grow your bookkeeping business

thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com — show resources and guest info

Accountable podcast by Amanda McKinney (300+ episodes available; currently on intentional pause)

About the Guest

Amanda McKinney is an accountability coach, speaker, and the host of the Accountable podcast (formerly The Unapologetic Entrepreneur). She works primarily with driven entrepreneurs and leadership teams to help them follow through on goals that keep getting pushed to the back burner — without burning out in the process. She has been coaching since 2017 and now leads engagements ranging from 90-day individual programs to 9–12 month team partnerships. You can find her through her podcast archive of 300+ episodes or by reaching out directly through her website.

About the host
Michael Palmer
Michael Palmer is the host of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and co-founder of Pure Bookkeeping and The Successful Bookkeeper. He started this work because of his father — a brilliant electrical contractor who worked twice as hard as he should have had to, because nobody on the financial side was in his corner. That gap is what The Successful Bookkeeper exists to close. His view: bookkeepers are the most undervalued force in small business — and every bookkeeper who builds a real business changes two families: theirs, and their clients'.

See what the team at The Successful Bookkeeper has on right now →

Your clients' financials tell one story. What your clients think about their business tells another. In this episode, fractional CFO, course creator, and speaker Debra Angilletta returns to show how closing that gap — through simple, curiosity-driven conversations — is the most direct path to selling advisory services. No complicated sales process required.

Chapters

[00:00] Opening Quote and Intro

[01:35] Meet Debra Angilletta

[03:30] Why Bookkeepers Struggle to Sell Advisory

[06:10] The "Curious" Question Technique

[09:20] Staying Human in a Digital World

[11:50] Finding Your First Five Clients

[14:30] The Advisory Transformation

[17:30] What 100 Business Owners Said

[20:30] About the Book: Hidden Profits

[22:40] Rapid Fire: Steps to Take Now

The Missing Half of the Story

Numbers give you the facts; your client's perspective gives you the context. Debra frames advisory as the natural result of putting those two pieces together: "When you put those two pieces of information together, that's where the magic happens, and that's where you can fill the gap." The good news is you already have one half. You just need to ask for the other.

One Word That Changes Everything

If you're not sure how to start a probing question without sounding nosy or accusatory, Debra has a single practical fix: lead with "curious." Saying "Curious — I noticed this in your books, can you tell me more?" removes any sense of blame, gives your client permission to explore rather than defend, and opens the conversation rather than closing it down. It's a small shift with a big effect on how clients respond.

Finding Your First Five

You don't need to overhaul your entire practice to get started. Debra's advice is to scan your client list, pick five people who seem most open to a deeper conversation, and book a 30-minute call — framed simply as "I saw some interesting things in your books that might be of value." That's it. The goal isn't to pitch advisory on the spot; it's to practice having the conversation. "There's nothing complicated here," Debra says. "I don't want to make it complicated for your audience at all."

Business Owners Are Waiting for You to Ask

Debra interviewed 100 small business owners while writing her book Hidden Profits, and the finding stopped her in her tracks. When she asked what they wished their bookkeeper did that they weren't doing, the answer was overwhelming: more strategic advisory. "I wish they would give me information that I can use to drive my business forward." Most business owners operate in isolation, with no one to think out loud with — and your existing financial relationship puts you closer to that trusted-advisor seat than you might realize.

The Transformation on the Other Side

Bookkeepers who start having these conversations consistently go through a noticeable shift. Debra sees it regularly: once they experience what advisory conversations feel like, they want more of them. More importantly, the relationship with the client changes. "It actually uplevels you to partnership level... they're going to see you as that trusted advisor." The compliance work stays valuable — but it's no longer the ceiling on what the relationship can be.

Links Mentioned

Hidden Profits: Stop Chasing Cash, Predictable Profit in 90 Days by Debra Angilletta — findmyhiddenprofits.com (free download of first 3 chapters) or search "Hidden Profits" on Amazon

MasterMySales.com — Debra's sales training for financial professionals

PureBookkeeping.com — episode sponsor

thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com — show resources and guest links

About the Guest

Debra Angilletta is a fractional CFO, course creator, and speaker at MasterMySales.com who specializes in helping bookkeepers, accountants, and financial professionals sell and deliver advisory services with confidence. She works primarily with small business owners in the $500K–$3M revenue range and is the author of Hidden Profits: Stop Chasing Cash, Predictable Profit in 90 Days. Debra is a returning speaker at The Successful Bookkeeper Summit and a consistent audience favourite.

About the host
Michael Palmer
Michael Palmer is the host of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and co-founder of Pure Bookkeeping and The Successful Bookkeeper. He started this work because of his father — a brilliant electrical contractor who worked twice as hard as he should have had to, because nobody on the financial side was in his corner. That gap is what The Successful Bookkeeper exists to close. His view: bookkeepers are the most undervalued force in small business — and every bookkeeper who builds a real business changes two families: theirs, and their clients'.