Brainforest Café

As the psychedelic renaissance surges, wild sources are collapsing under
demand—peyote takes decades to grow, safrole extraction is destroying
Southeast Asian forests, and Sonoran Desert toads are being overharvested.

In his book Bioengineering Enlightenment, Prof. Jeffrey Gerst proposes a radical solution: engineer yeast or fast-growing plants to produce psychedelic compounds sustainably. But at what cost? Dennis McKenna warns this could strip these substances from their cultural and ecological roots, veering into biopiracy.

Together, they debate biotech vs. tradition, exploring alternatives like
community-led agroforestry, symbiotic rights, and the “Om Fund” to
return profits to Indigenous stewards. They also revisit Terence McKenna’s “Stoned Ape” hypothesis, asking whether paleogenomics could experimentally probe the evolution of human consciousness.

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Jeffrey Gerst, born and raised in New York, is a Professor of Biology with over three decades of academic experience. He began his career at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine and has since held a long-standing position at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel, where he serves as the Besen-Brender Chair of Microbiology and Parasitology. His research focuses on how proteins are correctly localized within cells, particularly through the trafficking of messenger RNA (mRNA), a process essential for normal cellular function and disease prevention.

Among his key contributions, Gerst’s work has demonstrated that mammalian cells can transfer mRNA between one another, revealing a novel form of intercellular communication. His lab is now exploring this mechanism as a potential gene therapy approach to treat rare genetic disorders such as Tay-Sachs, cystic fibrosis, and Gaucher’s disease by enabling targeted RNA delivery within the body.

In addition to his biomedical research, Gerst advocates for the sustainable production of psychedelic compounds using genetic engineering. He is the author of Bioengineering Enlightenment and has presented this work at major scientific conferences.

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Dennis McKenna sits down with journalist Mattha Busby to discuss the evolving world of psychedelics, including ayahuasca, ibogaine, 5-MeO-DMT, coca policy, drug reform, and the risks and realities behind psychedelic retreats and clinics. Mattha shares stories from the front lines of psychedelic journalism and reflects on the cultural, scientific, and political forces shaping the future of consciousness research.

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Mattha Busby is a freelance journalist who has covered drug policy, psychedelics, culture and society for VICE, WIRED, Rolling Stone, The Guardian, LA Times and Esquire. He is the author of two slim volume books, Should All Drugs Be Legalized? (Thames & Hudson, 2022) and Psychedelics: A Pocket Primer (Hoxton Mini Press, 2025). He is represented by literary agents Aevitas Creative and is currently working on his first novel. He has also given keynotes on psychedelic culture on both sides of the Atlantic.
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In this rich and thought-provoking conversation, Dennis McKenna speaks with philosopher Mandi Astola about Terence McKenna, psychedelics, epistemology, shamanism, and the nature of knowledge. Together they explore how psychedelic experiences can produce both genuine insight and dangerous overconfidence, why intellectual humility matters, and how science and shamanic ways of knowing can complement each other. The discussion also touches on the “Stoned Ape” theory, the Timewave, the trickster archetype, and the role of psychedelics as tools for understanding reality, consciousness, and human evolution. A fascinating dialogue for anyone interested in philosophy, altered states, ethics, and the limits of what we know.

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Mandi Astola is a philosopher specializing in epistemology, ethics and ethics of technology. She is assistant professor at Delft University of Technology's philosophy section. 

In particular, Mandi's work focuses on character and what features of character make someone a good person, or a good thinker. She is also part of a project, involving multiple universities, that investigates the contribution that various disciplines in the arts can make to ethical reflection on new technologies.
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Join Dennis McKenna and Viktor Wynd for a fascinating conversation on dark fairy tales, strange museum curiosities, Papua New Guinea, storytelling, collecting, and the hidden intelligence of nature.

Viktor Wynd, writer, artist, and founder of the Museum of Curiosities, shares stories from his travels, his love of folklore, and his perspective on art, books, and the living world.

For viewers interested in folklore, ethnobotany, consciousness, rare books, oddities, and the intersection of science, spirit, and wonder.

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Viktor Wynd is a writer, artist, and the proprietor of the eponymous
Museum of Curiosities, Fine Art and UnNatural History in London. He
regularly leads expeditions to Papua New Guinea, the Congo and beyond,
taking small groups with him via his boutique travel agency Gone with
the Wynd. He is the author of Viktor Wynd's Cabinet of Wonders and The
UnNatural History Museum, both published by Prestel.
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Legal Disclaimer: The following content explores the chemistry and history of psychoactive plants for educational research.

No Medical Claims: The Brainforest Café Podcast and
Dennis McKenna do not make any claims regarding the health benefits or
safety of the substances discussed. Any statements made by the guest
regarding physical effects or health outcomes are personal anecdotes and
should not be interpreted as medical advice.

Safety & Legality: This conversation includes
theoretical discussions on chemical synthesis. We do not encourage
illegal activities or the handling of potentially toxic compounds (such
as Ergot fungi). Please adhere to all local laws and regulations.

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Chemist Matthew Stahl shares with Dennis McKenna his discovery that ancient Eleusinian kykeon likely used barley infected with a safe fungus, mixed with young barley's natural plant compounds under mild acid to transform a mild substance into a powerful, LSD-like visionary brew with no nausea.

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Matthew Stahl learned Lab chemistry while attending Texas A&M
University and Texas Lutheran University for 4 years at Texas A&M
University and 2 years at Texas Lutheran University.
He has worked in the Automotive production industry for 32 years, in the
quality department, with chemistry, to achieve enhanced safety and
better performance.
Matthew Stahl has read at least 200 books on psychedelics, numerous
papers, and studied psychedelics for around 24 years.
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