The Mastering Portrait Photography Podcast

• EP168 Inside The Print Room - What It's Like To Be A Judge

  Husky voice, Friday night whiskey, and a mountain of cheese from the book launch. In this episode I lift the lid on what really happens inside a print judging room. The rotation of five from a pool of seven. Silent scoring so no one nudges anyone else. How a challenge works, what the chair actually does, and why we start with impact, dive through craft, then finish on impact again to see what survives. Layout over composition, light as the whole game, and a final re-rank that flattens time drift so the right image actually wins. If you enjoy a peek behind the curtain, you will like this one. You can grab a signed copy of the new Mastering Portrait Photography at masteringportraitphotography.com and yes, I will scribble in it. If you already have the book, a quick Amazon review helps more than you know. Fancy sharpening your craft in person? Check the workshops page for new dates and come play with light at the studio.  The book: https://masteringportraitphotography.com/resource/signed-copy-mastering-portrait-photography-new-edition/ Workshops: https://masteringportraitphotography.com/workshops-and-mentoring/   Transcript [00:00:00]  Hey, one and all. How are you doing? Now? I'll be honest, I still have the remnants of a cold, and if you can hear that in my voice, I do apologize, I suppose you could call it slightly bluesy, but you can definitely hear that I'm ever so slightly husky. It's Friday night, it's eight 30, and I was, I've been waiting a week to record this podcast, hoping my voice would clear it hasn't, and so I've taken the opportunity having a glass of whiskey and just cracking on. So if you like the sound of a slightly bluesy voice, that's great. If you don't, I'm really sorry, but whichever, which way I'm Paul. And this is the Mastering Portrait Photography podcast. So it's been a busy month or two. You can always tell when it's busy [00:01:00] 'cause the podcasts. Get, don't really get delivered in quite the pace I would like. However, it really has been a busy couple of weeks the past few. Let me, I'm gonna draw your attention to it. The past couple of weeks, we've, there's a ton of stuff going on around us for a moment. I was up in Preston. I've been up in Preston twice over the past couple of weeks. The first one was working as a qualifications judge for the BIPP, the British Institute Professional photographers. Um. Which I love judging. I love judging. It's exhausting, but I love it. And that was qualifications, panels. Then last week was the launch. Of the updated edition of Mastering Portrait Photography, the book, which is where it all started, where Sarah Plata and I published this book that seems to have been incredibly popular. 50,000 copies translated from English into four other languages. Chinese, Korean, German. And Italian, do not ask me, do not ask me the logic on why the book is in those [00:02:00] particular languages. To be fair, we only found out about the Chinese and Korean when we were trying to get some marketing material together to talk about the new book Nobody had told us. I'm not even sure the publisher knew, to be honest. Uh, but we have found copies. We have a Chinese copy here in the studio. I'm still trying to get a Korean version. So if you are listening to this. Podcast in Korea. Please tell me how to get hold of a version in Korean because we'd love to complete the set. There's, in fact, there's two Italian versions. We knew about that. There's a German version we knew about that hardback version. It's great. It's really beautiful. Very I, like I, I don't live in Germany and I don't like to stereotyping entire nation, but the quality of the book is incredible. It's absolutely rock solid, properly engineered. Love it. We have a Chinese version here but the Korean version still alludes us. However, this week the new version, mastering portrait photography is out. And as you know, I, Sarah interviewed me for the podcast last week to talk about it. Well, it's out. We've had our launch party, uh, we invited everybody who [00:03:00] has featured in the book who, everybody, every picture in the book that we asked the person in it to come to the studio for a soiree. And it was brilliant. I've never seen so much cheese in all my life, and by I don't mean my speech, I mean actual cheese. We had a pile of it, still eating it. So it's been a week and I'm still eating the cheese. I dunno quite how, well, quite by how much we vacated, but probably by several kilos. Which I'm enjoying thoroughly. I've put on so much weight this week, it's unreal, but I'm enjoying the cheese. And then on Sunday we had an open day where we had set the studio out with some pictures from the book and some notes of the different people. Who featured and what I might do, actually, I'd, I wonder if I can do a visual podcast. I might do a visual podcast where I talk about those images, at some point on the website, on masteringportraitportraitphotography.com. I will do the story and the BTS and the production of every single image that's in the book, but it's gonna take me some [00:04:00] time. There's nearly 200 images in there. Um, and every one of them, bar one is a new image or is, is. It is, it is a new image in the book, and it has been taken in the 10 years or the decades subsequent to the first book, all bar one. Feel free to email me. Email me the image you think it might be. You'll probably guess it, but it's it's definitely in there. Um, and so it's been really busy. And then at the beginning of this week, I spent two days up in Preston again, judging again, but this time it was for the British Institute of Professional Photographers print Masters competition. Ah, what, what a joy. Six other judges and me, a chair of judges. Print handlers, the organizers. Ah, I mean, I've seen so many incredible images over those 48 hours, and in this podcast I want to talk a bit about how we do it, why we do it, what it feels like to do it, [00:05:00] because I'm not sure everybody understands that it's it, it's not stressful, but we do as judges, feel the pressure. We know that we are representing, on the one hand, the association as the arbiters of the quality of the curators of these competitions, but also we feel the pressure of the authors because we are there too. We also enter competitions and we really, really hope the judges pay attention, really investigate and interrogate the images that we've entered. And when, when you enter competitions, that heightens the pressure to do a good job for the authors who you are judging. So in this podcast, I'm gonna talk through some of the aspects of that. Forgive me if it sounds like I'm answering questions. It's because I wrote myself some questions. I wrote some [00:06:00] questions down to, how I structures the podcast usually, uh, the podcast rambles along, but this one I actually set out with a structure to it, so forgive me if it sounds like I'm answering questions. It's 'cause I'm answering my own questions. What does it feel like? How do you do it? Et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, I hope it's useful. Enjoy. And it gives you an insight into what it's like to be a competition judge. Okay. As you walk into the judging room. For me at least, it's mostly a sense of excitement. There's a degree of apprehension. There's a degree of tension, but mostly there's an adrenaline rush. Knowing that we're about to sit and view, assess, score these incredible images from photographers all over the world, and let's remember that every photographer when they enter a print competition, which is what I'm talking about primarily here. Every photographer [00:07:00] believes that print that category that year, could win. Nobody enters an image thinking that it doesn't stand a chance. Now you might do that modest thing of, I don't know, you know? Oh no, I don't. I I just chance my arm. No one enters a print they don't think has a chance of doing well. That just doesn't happen. It's too expensive. It takes too much time. And as judges. We are acutely aware of that. So when you walk into the room, lots of things are going in your on, in your heads. Primarily, you know, you are there to do a job. You are there to perform a task. You are going to put your analytical head on and assess a few hundred images over the next 48 hours. But as you walk in, there's a whole series of things. You, you are gonna assess the room. You see that your fellow judges, you're gonna see the print handlers. You're going to see the chair, you're gonna see the people [00:08:00] from whichever association it is who are organizing it, who or who have organized it. You'll see stacks of prints ready to be assessed. There's a whole series of things that happen. A lot of hugging. It's really lovely. This year the panel of judges, uh, had some people in it I haven't seen for quite a few years, and it was beyond lovely to see them. So there's all of that, but you, there's this underlying tension you are about to do. One of the things you love doing more than anything else in as part of your job. So there's the excitement of it and the joy of it, but there's always this gentle underlying tone of gravitas of just how serious it is. What we are doing. So there will be plenty of laughter, plenty of joy, but you never really take your eye off the task in hand. And that's how it feels as you go to take your seats on the judging [00:09:00] panel. So the most important thing, I think, anyway, and I was chair of qualifications and awards for the BIPP for a number of years, is that the whole room, everybody there is acting as a team. If you are not gonna pull as a team, it doesn't work. So there has to be safety, there has to be structure. There has to be a process and all of these things come together to provide a framework in which you assess and create the necessary scores and results for the association, for the photographers, for the contestants. So you take your seats, and typically in a room, there are gonna be five judges at any one time assessing an image. It's typically five. I've seen it done other ways, but a panel of judges is typically five. The reason we have five is at no point do all of the judges agree. [00:10:00] We'll go through this later in more detail, but the idea is that you have enough judges that you can have contention, you can have. Disagreements, but as a panel of judges, you'll come up with a score. So you'll have five judges sitting assessing an image at any one time. To the side of the room, there'll be two more judges typically. Usually we have a pool of seven, five judges working, two judges sitting out every 10 prints or 10 minutes or whatever the chair decides. They'll we'll rotate along one, so we'll all move along one seat and one of the spare judges will come in and sit on the end and one of the existing judges will step off. And we do that all day, just rotating along so that everybody judges, broadly speaking, the same number of images. Now, of course there is a degree of specialism in the room. If a panel has been well selected, there'll be specialists in each of the categories, but you can't have, let's say there's 15 categories. You [00:11:00] can't have five specialist judges per category. That's simply impractical. Um, you know, having, what's that, 75 judges in a room, just so that you can get through the 15 categories is. A logistics task, a cost. Even just having a room that big, full of judges doesn't work. So every judge is expected to be reasonably multi-talented, even if you don't shoot, for instance, landscapes. You have to have a working knowledge of what's required of a great landscape. Because our job as a panel isn't that each of us will spot all of the same characteristics in an image, all of the same defects, all of the same qualities. Each judge has been picked to bring their own. Sort of viewpoint, if you like, to the image. Some judges are super technical, some judges, it's all about the atmosphere. Some judges, it's all about the printing and there's every bit of image production is [00:12:00] covered by each of the individual specialisms of the judges. And so while there is a degree of specialism, there will be a landscape. Specialist in the room or someone who works in landscape, there will be plenty of portrait photographers, wedding photographers, commercial photographers. The idea is from those seven, we can cover all of those bases. So we have seven judges all at fellowship level, all highly skilled, all experienced. And then there's the chair. Now the chair's role is not to affect the actual score. The chair's role is to make sure the judges have considered everything that they should be considering. That's the Chair's job, is to make sure the judges stay fresh, keep an eye on the scores, keep an eye on the throughput. Make sure that every image and every author are given a. The time and consideration that they are due. What do I mean by that? Well, I just mean the photographers spent a lot of time and effort and [00:13:00] finance putting this print in front of us, and so it's really important that we as judges give it due consideration. The chair, that's their role is to make sure that's what really happens. So the process is pretty simple, really. We will take our seats as a panel of judges and when we are settled. The chair will ask for the print, one of the print handlers. There's normally a couple of print handlers in the room, one to put the image on, one to take the image off. The print handler will take the first image or the next image off the pile and place it in front of us on the light box. They will then check the print to make sure there's no visible or obvious dust marks, um, or anything, and give with an air blower or with the back of a a handling glove, or very gently take any dust spots away. They will then step back. Now, the way the judges are set, there are five seats in a gentle arc, usually around the light [00:14:00] box. The outer two judges, judges one and five will step into the light box and examine or interrogate the print carefully. They will take as much time as they need to ascertain what they believe the score for that image should be. They will then take their seats. The next two judges in, so let's say Judge two and four, they will step in to interrogate the print and do exactly the same thing. When they're ready, they'll step back and sit down. And then the middle judge, the final judge in seat three, they will step up and interrogate the print. And the reason we do it that way is that everybody gets to see the print thoroughly. Everybody gets to spend enough time. Examining the print. And at that point, when we all sit down, we all enter our scores onto whatever the system is we're using either using iPads or keypads. There's all sorts of ways of doing it, but what's really important is we do all of this in total silence and we don't really do it because we need to be able to [00:15:00] concentrate. Though that has happened, sort of distracting noises can play havoc. Um, we really do it so that we are not influencing any other judge. So there's no, oh, this is rubbish, or, oh, this is amazing. Or any of this stuff, because the idea is that each judge will come to their own independent score. We enter them, and then there's a process as to what happens next. So that's the process. If at some point a single judge when the image appears, says, I can't judge this for whatever reason, usually it's because they've seen the image before. I mean, there's one this week where I hadn't directly influenced the image. But the author had shown me how they'd done it, so they'd stepped me through the Photoshopping, the construction, the shooting, everything about the image. I knew the image really well, and so when the image appeared on the light box, I knew while I could judge it, it wasn't fair to the author or to the other [00:16:00] competitors that I should. So I raised my hand, checked in with the chair, chair, asked me what I wanted. I said, I need to step off this. I'm too familiar with the work for me to give this a cold read, an objective read. So I if, if possible, if there's another judge, could they just step in and score this one image for me? And that means it's fair for all of the contestants. So that's that bit of process when we come to our score. Let's assume the score's fine. Let's assume, I dunno, it gets an 82, which is usually a merit or a bronze, whatever the system is. The chair will log that, she'll say that image scored 82, which is the average of all five of us. She'll then check in with the scores and the panel of judges. He or she rather, uh, they, so they will look at us and go, are you all happy with that result? That's really important. Are you all happy? Would that result? Because that's the opportunity as judges for one of us, if we're not comfortable that the image is scored where we think it probably should. And [00:17:00] remember with five of you, if the score isn't what you think, you could be the one who's not got your eye in or you haven't spotted something, it might well be you, but it's your job as a judge to make sure if there's any doubt in your mind about the scoring of an image that. You ask for it to be assessed again, for there to be discussion for the team to do its job because it might be that the other members of the panel haven't seen something that you have or you haven't seen something that they have, that both of those can be true. So it's really important that you have a process and you have a strict process. And this is how it works. So the chair will say you are happy. One of the judges may say. No, I'm not happy or may say I would like to challenge that or may simply say, I think this warrants a discussion. I'm gonna start it off. And then there's a process for doing that. [00:18:00] So the judge who raises the challenge will start the dialogue and they'll start in whichever direction it is that they think the scoring is not quite right. They will start the dialogue that way. So let's say the score, the judge who's raising a challenge says the score feels a little low. What happens then is raise a challenge and that judge will discuss the image or talk to the image in a way that is positive and trying to raise the score. And they're gonna do that by drawing attention to the qualities that they feel the image has, that maybe they're worried the other judges haven't seen when they're done, the next judge depends, depending on the chair and how you do it. The next judge will take their turn and he goes all the way around with every judge having their say. And then it comes back to the originating judge who has the right of a rebuttal, which simply means to answer back. So depending on how the [00:19:00] dialogue has gone it may be that you say thank you to all of the judges. I'm glad you saw my point. It would be great if we could give this the score that I think this deserves. Similarly, you occasionally, and I did do one of these where I raised a challenge, um, where I felt an image hadn't scored, or the judges hadn't seen something that maybe I had seen in the image, and then very quickly realized that four judges had seen a defect that I hadn't. And so my challenge, it was not, it's never a waste of a challenge. It's never ever a waste because it's really important that every image is given the consideration it deserves. But at the end of the challenge that I raised, the scoring stayed exactly the same. I stayed, I said thank you to all of the judges for showing me some stuff that I hadn't noticed. And then we moved on. More often than not, the scores move as the judges say, oh, do you know what, you're right, there is something in this. Or, no, you're right. We've overinflated this because we saw things, but we missed these technical defects. It's those kinds of conversations. So that's a, a chair, that's a, a judge's [00:20:00] challenge. Yeah, this process also kicks in if there's a very wide score difference between the judge's scores, same process, but this time there's no rebuttal. Every judge simply gives their view starting with the highest judge and then working anywhere on the panel. Um, and then there's a rare one, which does happen which is a chair's challenge, and the chair has the right in, at least in the competitions that I judge, the chair has the right to say to the panel of judges. Could you just give this another consideration? I think there might be things you've missed or that feels like you're getting a little bit steady in your scoring. 'cause they, the chair of course, has got a log of all the scores and can see whether, you know, you're settling into like a 78, 79 or one judge is constantly outta kilter. The chair can see everything and so your job as the chair is to just, okay guys, listen, I think this image that you've just assessed. Possibly there's some things one way or the [00:21:00] other that you might need to take into consideration. It doesn't feel like you have. I'd like you to discuss this image and then just do a rescore. So those are the, those are the mechanisms. So in the room you've got five judges plus two judges who are there ready to step in when required either on the rotation or when someone recuses themself and steps out. Usually two print handlers and then usually there's at least one person or maybe more from the association, just doing things like making sure things are outta their boxes, that the scores are recorded on the back of the prints, they go back into boxes, there's no damage because these prints are worth quite a lot of money. And so, there's usually quite a few people in the room, but it's all done in silence and it's all done to this beautiful process of making sure it's organized, it's clear it's transparent, and we're working as one team to assess each image and give it the score that it deserves. so when the print arrives on the box. It has impact. Now, whether you like it or not, [00:22:00] whether you understand it or not, whether you can define it or not, the print has an impact. You're gonna see it, you're gonna react to it. How do you react to it? Is it visceral? Does your heart rate climb? Do you. Do you explore it? Do you want to explore it? Does it tell a clear story? And now is when you are judging a competition, typically the association or the organization who are running the competition will have a clear set of criteria. I mean, broadly speaking, things like lighting, posing layout or composition storytelling. Graphic design, print quality, if it's a print competition. These are the kinds of things that, um, we look for. And they're listed out in the competition guides that the entrant, the author will have known those when they submitted their print. And the judges know them when we're assessing them, so they're kind of coherent. Whatever it is that the, the entrance were told, that's what we're judging [00:23:00] to the most important. Is the emotional connection or the impact? It's typically called visual impact or just impact. What's really important about that is that it's very obvious, I think, to break images down into these constructed elements like complimentary colors or tonal range or centers of interest, but they don't really do anything except create. Your emotional reaction to the picture. Now, we do use language around these to assess the image, but what we're actually looking for is emotional impact. Pictures tell stories. Stories invoke emotions. It's the emotions we're really looking for. But the trick when you are judging is you start with the initial impact. Then you go in and you in real tiny detail, look at the image. Explore it, interrogate it, [00:24:00] enjoy it, maybe don't enjoy it. And you look at it in all of the different categories or different areas, criteria that you are, that the judges that the organization have set out. And then really, although it never gets listed twice, it should do, impact should also be listed as the last thing you look at as well. Because here's the process. You look at the image. There's an impact. You then in detail investigate, interrogate, enjoy the image. And then at the very end you ask yourself, what impact does it still have? And that's really important because the difference between those two gives you an idea of how much or how well the image is scoring in all of the other areas. If an image has massive impact when you, let's put 'em on the light box, and then you explore it and you [00:25:00] enjoy it, and you look at it under the light, and then at the end of it you're still feeling the same thing you did when it came on the light box, that's a pretty good indicator that all the criteria were met. If on the other hand, as you've explored the image, you've realized. There are errors in the production, or you can see Photoshopping problems or blown highlights or blocked blacks, or things are blurred where they should be sharp or you name it. It's these kinds of things. You know, the printing has got banding in the sky, which is a defect. You see dust spots from a camera sensor. These gradually whittle away your impact score because you go back to the end and you ask, what impact does the image now have? And I've heard judges use terms like at the end of the process, I thought that was gonna be amazing when it first arrived on the light box. I just loved the look of it from a distance, but when I stepped in, there were just too many things that [00:26:00] weren't quite right. And at the end of it, I just felt some would, sometimes I've heard the word disappointed you. So that's certainly how I feel. When an image has this beautiful impact and the hair stand up on the back of your neck and you just think, I cannot wait to step in and explore this image in detail. 'cause I tell you one thing, most authors don't own a light box. When you see a print on a beautiful light box, the, there's something about the quality. The way the print ESS is you actually get to see what a print should look like. So when you step in, you are really excited to see it. And if at the end of that process you're slightly disappointed because you found defects in the printing or problems with the focusing or Photoshop or whatever it is. You really are genuinely disappointed. So that's how you approach it. You approach it from this standpoint of a very emotional, a very emotional connection with the image to start with, and then you break [00:27:00] it down into its elements, whatever those elements are for the competition. And then at the end, you ask yourself really, does it still have the impact? I thought it would because if it does, well, in that case, it's done really, really well. one of the things that's really interesting about judging images is we, we draw out, we write out all of these criteria and. Every image has them really. I mean, well, I say that of course every image doesn't have them. If you are, if you're thinking about landscape or a picture of a shampoo bottle, it doesn't have posing, for instance, if that's one of your criteria. But typically there's a standard set of criteria and every image has them layout, color uh, photographic technique, et cetera. So if we look at let's say composition, let's talk about composition. Personally, I like to use the term layout rather than composition because it [00:28:00] feels a little bit more like a verb. You lay the image out, you have all of the bits, you lay them out. I like that because when we are teaching photography when we say to someone, right, what are all of the bits that you have in front of you? How are you gonna lay them out? It feels a lot more, to me, at least more logical than saying, how are you gonna compose the image? Because it allows. I think it allows the photographer to think in terms of each individual component rather than just the whole frame. So we are looking for how the image is constructed. Remember that every photographer really should think about an image. As telling a story, what's the story that you want somebody else? Somebody that you've never met. In this case a judge, but it could be a client or it could just be somebody where your work is being exhibited on a wall. What do you want them to look at? What do you want them to see? Where do you want that eye to go? And there are lots of tricks to [00:29:00] this, and one of them is layout or composition. So we've got through the initial impact, boom. And the excitement. And then you start to think, is the image balanced? I like to think of an image having a center of gravity. Some photographers will use center of interest, which is a slightly different thing, but I think an image has a center of gravity. The component parts of the image create balance. So you can have things right down in the edges of the frame, but you need something to balance it like a seesaw. You can't just. Throw in, throw parts of the puzzle around the frame. So you are looking for where do they land? And of course, as photographers, we talk about thirds, golden ratios, golden spirals, all of these terms. But what we are really looking for is does the image have a natural flow? Does it feel like everything's where it should be? Does your eye go to the bit that the author probably wanted you to look at? Have they been effective in their [00:30:00] storytelling? And by storytelling, I don't necessarily mean storytelling as in photojournalism or narrative rich photography. What I mean is what did they want you to see, and then did you go and see it? Separation? Is the background blurred? And let's say the, the subject is sharp. That's a typical device for making sure you look at the subject. Is the color of the background muted in a way that draws your attention? Again to whatever it is in the foreground. So layouts one of those tools. So we work our way around it and try and figure out does the positioning of all of the elements of the image does their positioning add or distract from the story? We think that author was trying to tell. Let's remember that it's not the judge's job to understand the story. It's the author's job to tell the story in a way that the judges can get it. Too often, you know, when I, when I've judged [00:31:00] a competition, someone will come and find me afterwards and say, did you understand what that was about? I was trying to say this, and it's like, well, I didn't see that, but that's not my fault. You know, it's, it's down to you to lead me pictorially to. Whatever it is you're trying to show. Same with all judges, all viewers, clients. It doesn't really matter. It's the author's job, not the judges. So at the end of that, you then move on to whatever's the next criteria. So you know, you assess these things bit by bit, and by the way, every judge will do it in a slightly different order. There'll be written down in an order. But each judge would approach it in a different manner. For me, typically it's about emotional connection more than anything else, it's about the emotion. I love that genuine, authentic connection of a person in the image. To me, the viewer. I will always go there if, if it's a portrait or a wedding or fashion image, if there's a person in it or a dog, I suppose, [00:32:00] then I will look for that authenticity, that, that visceral, it feels like they're looking at me or I'm having a dialogue with them. That's my particular hot button, but every judge has their room and that's how you approach it. So when it comes to a photograph in the end, you don't really have anything other than light when you think about it, right? That's, you pick up a camera, it's got a sensor, it's got film, it's got a lens on the front, and a shutter stopping light coming, or it goes through the lens, but the, the shutter stops it hitting a sensor. And at some point you commit light to be recorded. And it's the light that describes the image. There's nothing else. It's not something you can touch or hear, it's just light. And of course light is everything. I think, I think the term pho photography or photograph is a mix of a couple of words, and it's a relatively recent idea. I think [00:33:00] it was Victorian and it's, isn't it light and art photographic or photograph, um. So that's what it is. It's capturing light and creating a reaction from it. So the quality of light is possibly the most important thing. There is too much of it, and you're gonna have blown highlights, nasty white patches on your prints, too little of it. You're gonna have no detail in the shadows and a lot of noise or grain, whether it's film or whether it's off your sensor. And then there's the shape of the light. The color of the light, and it doesn't really matter whether it's portrait, wedding, landscape, product, avant garde, it's light that defines things. It's light that can break an image. So with portraiture, for instance, we tend to talk about. Sculpting or dimensionality of light. We tend to talk about the shape of the subject. We talk about flattering light. We talk about hard and soft light, and all of these things [00:34:00] mean something. This isn't the podcast to talk about those in detail, but that's what we're looking for. We are looking for has the light created a sense of shape, a sense of wonder, a sense of narrative. Does the lighting draw your eye towards the subject? And when you get to the subject, is it clear that the lighting is effective and by effective, usually as a portrait photographer anyway. I mean flattering. But you might be doing something with light that's counterintuitive, that's making the subject not flattered. That's maybe it's for a thriller style thing, or maybe it's dark and moody. Harsh, as long as in tune with the story as we are seeing it, then the lighting is assessed in that vein. So we've seen some incredible beauty shots over the past couple of days where the lighting sculpted the face. It had damaged ality, but it was soft. There were no hard shadows, there were no [00:35:00] blown highlights. The skin, it was clear that the texture of the skin, the light, it caught the texture. So we knew exactly what that would be. It had. Captured the shape. So the way the gens or shadows ripple around a body or a face tell you its shape. They haven't destroyed the shape. It's it's catch shape, but it hasn't unnecessarily sculpted scars or birthmarks or spots, you know? And that's how lighting works. So you look for this quality, you look for control, you look for the author, knowing what they're doing. With landscapes, typically it's, it is very rare, in my opinion, for a landscape. To get a good score if it isn't shot at one end of the day or the other. Why? Well, typically, at those points of the day, the light from the sun is almost horizontal. It rakes across the frame, and you get a certain quality to the way the shadows are thrown. The way the [00:36:00] light, sculpts hills, buildings, clouds, leaves, trees, the way it skips off water, whether it's at the beginning of the day or the end of the day. It's quite unusual though we do see them for an amazing photograph of escape to be taken at midday. But you can see how it could be if you have the sun directly overhead, because that has a quality all of its own. And you know, if when an author has gone to the effort of being in the right place to shoot vertical shadows with a direct overhead son, well maybe that's so deliberate that the, the judges will completely appreciate that and understand the story. So it's looking for these things and working out. Has the lighting been effective in telling the story? We think the author was trying to tell? Lighting is at the heart of it. So when we've been through every criteria, whatever they are, lighting, composition, color, narrative, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, [00:37:00] we've assessed every image, hundreds of them. We've had challenges, we've had conversations. We have a big pile of prints that have made it over the line. To whatever is your particular association scoring, whether it's merit or bronze or whatever. The puzzle isn't quite complete at that stage because there is of course, a slight problem and that problem is time. So if you imagine judging a section of images might take a couple of hours to do 70 prints, 60, 70 prints might take longer than that. In fact, it might take the best part of an afternoon. During that time. There's every chance the scores will wander. And the most obvious time is if a category spans something like a lunch break. We try to make sure categories don't do that. We try to complete categories before going for a break. We always try to be continuous, but [00:38:00] you've still got fatigue. You've got the judges rotating. So all of these things are going on. It sometimes it depends what images come up in what order could conceivably affect the scoring. For instance there's an image that came up this year where I think probably I was the judge that felt the strongest about it. There was something about this particular image that needed talking about, and so when it came up and it was scores that I raised a challenge and my heart rate, the minute the print hit the stand, my heart rate climbed through the roof. It was. Something about it that just connected with me. And then when I explored the image on the lights, on the light box, to me, there was very little that was technically holding it back. There were a couple of bits, but nothing that I felt warranted a lower score. And so I raised a [00:39:00] challenge. I said my point, I went through it in detail. I asked the other judges to consider it. From my viewpoint, they gave their views as to why they hadn't. But each of them understood where I was coming from and unlike the challenge I talked about earlier where no one changed their mind on this one, they did on this one. They also saw things that I saw when we went through it. But at the end of the process, the image was got a higher score, which is great, but. I didn't feel that I could judge the next image fairly because whatever came in, my heart rate was still battering along after seeing this one particular image. And that happens sometimes. It's not common, but I felt I needed to step off the panel before the next image came up. Which I did in work, working with the chair and the team. I stepped off for a couple of prints before stepping back on [00:40:00] just to let my eye settle and let myself get back into the right zone. But during the day, the zone changes. The way you change your perception of the images, as the images come through is so imperceptible, imperceivable, imperceptible. One of those two words is so tiny that you don't notice if there's a slight drift. And so there's every opportunity for an image to score a couple of points lower or a couple of points higher than it possibly could have done. If it had been seen at another point in the day. Maybe it had been, maybe if the image was seen after a series of not so strong images, maybe it would get a higher score. Or of course, the other way round. Maybe after seeing a series of really, really powerful, impactful images that came up, maybe it scored be slightly diminished. Both of those can be true. And so it's really important that we redress that any possible imbalance and every competition I've ever done has a final round. And the [00:41:00] way this is done is that we take the highest scoring images, top five, top 10, depending on the competition, and we line them up. And all of the judges now, not just the judges who are the five on the panel, all seven judges. Get an opportunity to bring each image back onto a light box if they wish, if they haven't seen them already. Because remember, some of those images may not have been assessed by the, well. It cannot have been assessed by all seven of the judges, so there's always gonna be at least two judges who haven't seen that image or seeing it for the first time as a judge. So we bring them back, we look at them, and then we rank them using one of numerous voting mechanisms where we all vote on what we think are the best images and gradually whittle it down until we're left with a ranked order for that category. We have a winner, a second, a third, a fourth, sometimes all the way down to 10 in order, depending on the competition. And that's the fairest way of doing it, because it means, okay, during the judging, [00:42:00] that image got, I dunno, 87. But when we now baseline it against a couple of images that got 90 something, when we now look at it, we realize that that image probably should have got a 90 as well. We're not gonna rescore it, the score stands, but what we are gonna do is put it up into there and vote on it as to whether it actually, even though it got slightly lower, score, is the winning image for the category. And every competition does something similar just to redress any fluctuations to, to flatten out time. It takes time outta the equation because now for that category, all seven judges are judging the winner at the same time, and that's really important. We do that for all the categories, and then at the end of that process, we bring back all of the category winners and we vote on which one of those. Wins the competition. Now, not every competition has an overall winner, but for the one we've just done for the print masters, for the BIPP print masters, there is an overall winner. And so we set them all out [00:43:00] and we vote collectively as a winner on the winner. And then, oh, we rank them 1, 2, 3, 4, or whatever. Um, really we're only picking a winner, but we also have to have some safety nets because what happens if for instance. Somebody unearths a problem with an image. And this has happened, sadly, this has happened a couple of times in my career where a photographer has entered an image that's not compliant with the rules but hasn't declared it. And it's always heartbreaking when it does happen, but we have to have a backup. So we always rank one, two, and three. So that's some backups, and that's the process. That's how we finish everything off. We have finished, we've got all the categories judged, the category winners judged, and then the overall one, two, and three sorted as well. at the end of the process? I can't speak for every judge. I can speak for me, I feel, I think three things. Exhaustion. It's really hard to spend 48 hours or longer [00:44:00] assessing images one by one, by one by one, and making sure that you are present and paying attention to every detail of every image. And you're not doing an author or an image a disservice. You pay each image or you give each image, you pay each image the due attention it deserves. I feel exhilaration. There's something energizing about assessing images like this. I know it's hard to explain, but there's something in the process of being alongside some of the best photographers that you've ever met, some photographers that you admire more than any others, not just as photographers, but as human beings. The nicest people, the smartest people, the most experienced people, the most eloquent people. There's something in that. So there's this [00:45:00] exhilaration. You are exhausted, but there's an exhilaration to it. And then finally, and I don't know if every photographer feels this or every judge feels this, I do. Which is massively insecure, I think. Can't think of the right words for it. There must be one. But I come away, much like when you've been out on the beers and you worry about all the things you've said, it's the same process. There was that image I didn't give enough credit for. There was this image I was too generous on. There were the things I said in a challenge when it gets a little bit argumentative or challenging. 'cause the clues in the title, you know, maybe I pushed too hard, maybe I didn't push hard enough. There are images you've seen that you wished you'd taken and you feel like. I'm not good enough. There's an insecurity to it too, and those are the three things I think as you leave the room, it's truly [00:46:00] energizing. Paradoxically, it's truly exhausting, but it's also a little bit of a head mush in that you do tend to come, or I do tend to come away a little bit insecure about. All the things that have gone on over the two days prior, and I've done this a long time. I've been judging for, I dunno, 15, 16, 17 years. And I've got used to those feelings. I've got used to coming away worrying. I'm used to the sense of being an underachiever, I suppose, and it's a wonderful , set of emotions that I bring home. And every time I judge. I feel better for it. I feel more creative. I feel more driven. I feel more determined. I feel like my eyes have been opened to genres [00:47:00] of photography, for types of imagery, for styles of posing or studio work that I've never necessarily considered, and I absolutely adore it every single second. So at the end of that, I really hope I've described or created a picture of what it's like to be a judge for this one. I haven't tried to explain the things we saw that as photographers as authors, you should think about when you are entering. I'm gonna do that in a separate podcast. I've done so many of those, but this one was specifically like, what does it feel like to be a judge? Why do we do it? I mean, we do it for a million reasons. Mostly we do it because people helped us and it's our turn to help them. But every photographer has a different reason for doing it. It's the most joyful process. It's the most inspiring process and I hope you've got a little bit of that from the podcast. So [00:48:00] on that happy note, I'm gonna wrap up and I'm gonna go and finish my glass of whiskey which I'm quite excited about if I'm honest. 'cause I did, it's been sitting here beside me for an hour and I haven't drunk any of it. I do hope you're all doing well. I know winter is sort of clattering towards us and the evenings are getting darker, at least for my listeners in the north and the hemisphere. Don't forget. If you want more information on portrait photography or our workshops we've announced all of the upcoming dates or the next set of upcoming dates. Please head across to mastering portrait photography.com and go to the workshop section. I love our workshops and we've met so many. Just lovely people who've come to our studio. And we've loved being alongside them, talking with them, hopefully giving a bit of inspiration, certainly taking a little bit of inspiration, if I'm honest, because everyone turns up with ideas and conversations. Uh, we would love to see you there. The workshops are all are all there on the website and the workshop section. You can also, if you wish, buy a signed copy of the book from mastering portrait photography.com. Again, just go to the [00:49:00] shop and you'll see it there on the top. Amazon has them for sale too. It is great. Amazon typically sells them for less than we do, but we have a fixed price. We have to buy them from the wholesaler at a particular price, whereas Amazon can buy many, many more than we can, so they get a better deal if I'm honest. However, if you want my paw print in there, then you can order it from us and it's supports a photographer and it's really lovely to hear from you. When you do, uh, one thing, I'd love to ask anyone who has bought the updated edition of the book, if you are an Amazon customer. Please could you go on to amazon.com and leave us a review? It's really powerful when you do that, as long as it's a good review. If it's a rubbish review, just email me and tell me what I could have done differently, and I'll email you back and tell you, tell you why I didn't. But if it's a half decent review, a nice review. Please head over to Amazon. Look for mastering portrait photography, the new version of the book, and leave us a review. It's really important particularly in the first couple of [00:50:00] weeks that it's been on sale. Uh, it would be really, really helpful if you did that. And on that happy note, I wish you all well. I've grabbed my glass of whiskey and I'm gonna wrap up and whatever else you do. Until next time, be kind to yourself. Take care.   

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• EP167 The New Book Is Out!

  Ten years, 50,000+ copies, four languages, and about a million stories later… the second edition of Mastering Portrait Photography is here. Sarah flips the mic and grills me about why we did a new edition, what changed (spoiler: basically everything but one image), how mirrorless and AI have shifted the craft, and why a tiny chapter on staying creative might be the most important two pages I’ve ever written. There’s a Westie called Dodi, a cover star called Dory, and a street scene in La Boca that still makes me grin. Enjoy! Links: Signed Copy of Mastering Portrait Photography, New Edition - https://masteringportraitphotography.com/resource/signed-copy-mastering-portrait-photography-new-edition/   Transcript: Sarah: So welcome back to the Mastering Portrait Photography podcast and today's a special one. Hi, I'm Sarah, and I'm the business partner of Paul at Paulwilkinsonphotography.co.uk and also his wife too. Now, you might already know him as the voice behind this podcast, but today I'm gonna get the rare pleasure of turning the microphone around and asking him the questions. So Paul, it's been 10 years since the first edition of mastering portrait photography hit the shelves, and with selling over 50,000 copies, multiple reprints and translation into four languages, it's safe to say it's had a bit of an impact, but as we all know, photography doesn't stand still and neither do you. So today we're diving into the brand new second edition. So Hello Paul. Paul: Hello. It feels weird saying hello to my wife in a way that makes it sound like we've only just met. Sarah: Mm. Maybe, maybe. Paul: The ships that pass in the night. Sarah: Yes. So I thought we'd start with talking about the, the first version. You know, how did it come about? A bit of the origin story about it. Um, and I'll leave that with you. Paul: Well, of course Confusingly, it's co-authored with another Sarah, um, another photographer. And the photographer and brilliant writer called Sarah Plater, and she approached us actually, it wasn't my instigation, it was Sarah's, and she had written another book with another photographer on the Foundations of Photography. Very popular book. But she wanted to progress and had been approached by the publisher to create Mastering Portrait Photography. This thing that we now have become used to didn't exist 10 years ago, and when she approached us, it was because she needed someone who could demonstrate photographic techniques that would live up to the title, mastering portrait photography. And we were lucky enough to be that photographer. And so that first book was really a, a sort of trial and error process of Sarah sitting and interviewing me over and over and over and over and over, and talking about the techniques that photographers use in portraiture. Some of it very sort of over the sort of cursory look, some of it in depth, deep dives, but all of it focusing on how to get the very best out of your camera, your techniques, and the people in front of you. And that's how it came about. I mean, little did I know 10 years ago we'd be sitting here where we are with Mastering Portrait Photography as a brand in and of itself.This is the Mastering Portrait Photography Podcast Yes, because the book sold so well. Sarah: And did you expect it to do as well as it Paul : Oh, I'm a typical photographer, so, no, of course I didn't, you know, I kind of shrugged and thought it'd be all right. Um, and, and in some ways, because you have to boil it down into, I think there's a 176 pictures or there, there were in the first book or somewhere around there, a couple of hundred pages. There's this sense that there's no way you can describe everything you do in that short amount of space. And so instead of, and I think this is true of all creatives, instead of looking what we achieve. We look at the things we haven't done. And I talk about this on the podcast regularly, the insecurity, you know, how to, how to think like a scientist. That's something that will come up later when we talk about the new version of the book. But no, I, I thought it would be reasonably well accepted. I thought it was a beautiful book. I thought Sarah's words were brilliant. I thought she'd captured the, the processes that I was talking about in a way that clarified them because I'm not known for my clarity of thought. You know, you know, I am who I am, I'm a creative, um, and actually what happened was the minute it was launched, the feedback we got has been amazing. And of course then it's gone on to be translated into Italian. A couple of different Italian versions for National Geographic. It's been translated into Korean, it's been translated into German, it's been translated into Chinese. Um, and of course, technically it's been translated into American English. And, and one of the reviews that made me laugh, we've got amazing reviews on Amazon, but there is one that kind of made me laugh, but also upset me slightly, is that both Sarah and myself are British authors. Using English uk, UK English, but for the international market right from the get go the book was using American spellings, Sarah: right? Paul : We didn't know that was what was gonna happen. We provided everything in UK English and of course it went out in with American English as its base language. Its originating language. Um, and that's one of the biggest criticisms we Sarah: got. Paul - Studio Rode Broadcaster V4 (new AI): And when that's the criticism you're getting that people are a bit fed up that it's in American English and apologies to my US friends, of which I have many. Um, it was the only one that really. I don't like that. So I thought, well, it must be all right. And so for 10 years it's been selling really well. book. I never knew it'd be in different languages. Um, it was in the original contract that if the publisher wanted to do that, they could. And really, I only found out it was an Italian when I started getting messages in Italian from people who'd bought the book in Italy. And then of course, we found out. So it's been a remarkable journey and. I don't think I've been as proud of something we've done as I have of the book. I mean, me and you spent hours pouring over pictures and talking about stories. Sarah had to then listen to me. Sarah: Yes. Paul: Mono, sort of giving these sort of diatribes on techniques and things we do. Um, you know, and I think, I think it's a remark. I, well, I still think it's a remarkable achievement. I'm really proud of it. Sarah: Yes. Did, did you think the second edition would, would happen or, um, or how did it come about? Paul: No, not really. Because if you remember, we did a sort of interim update, which was just off the ISBN, so the same ISBN, same book number, but we'd been asked if there was anything that needed tweaking minor word changes, those kinds of things. And I assumed not really being, you know, that time experienced with this stuff is that was. Was a second edition, it was basically a reprint. So I sort of assumed that was the end of it. And then, um, we were contacted the end of last year, um, to say that with the success of the book over the past decade, would we consider, uh, refreshing it properly refreshing it, a new updated edition because of course there's lots of things that change over time. Um. And it's, it was worth having another look at it. So no, I didn't expect it, but it was an absolute joy when the email came in It must have been. It's, it's one of those things that's so lovely when other people appreciate it and know that, um, it would be really good to have a, have another go at it and, uh, see what's changed. Sarah: So it kind of brings me onto what, what have you changed in it? What's, what are the new, the new bits that are in the second edition? Or was it even that from the first edition? You, you knew that there were things you'd love to include? Paul: Well, in a decade, so much changes. I. The equipment is the most obvious. You know, there's a chapter at the beginning on Kit, so you know, one of these dilemmas with books. I think again, we took advice from the publisher as to what do you include in a book? And the publisher were really keen and have stayed really keen that there's a chapter on the kit at the beginning. Um, and apparently that just helps a very particular part of the market sell. So that's fair enough. No problem with that. It's quite fun talking about technology. I don't mind it. Um, but of course that technology's evolved, so we had to update all of that to reflect the fact that 10 years ago we were just beginning to talk about the advent of mirrorless cameras, but they were nowhere near the quality of a digital SLR, for instance. Well, now mirrorless is the professional choice. Everything has gone mirrorless because it's got fewer moving parts. The sensors have increased in, um, sensitivity to focusing, you know, there's a million reasons why that's happened. So of course we've updated all of the technology. I think more importantly, certainly from my point of view is in those 10 intervening years, I've changed every picture. Our clients, the techniques, the. Post-production, the thought processes, um, even down to the fact that with mirrorless cameras, you can actually shoot in a slightly different way. I mean, I'm a traditionalist in many ways. I grew up with a film camera. Yes. So, you know, metering either using a meter or very careful control. Because your dynamic range is pretty limited. Um, maybe the fact that you would focus on a point and then wait for whatever it is that's moving through it, to move through it and take your, take your picture. Um, these were the kind of techniques, you know, lock your focus repose when I started, even even A-D-S-L-R, you know, I'll give you a really good example on how the technology has helped, though. It's not actually part of this book, but it's a, it's a really good illustrative point. Um, technology isn't the be all and end all of photography. What goes on in your head is what matters, but the technology is the enabler. And I work with the hearing dogs every week. We photograph running dogs all the time and with the DSLRs I was using, it would just take four goes, maybe five goes to get that perfect moment where the dog is spot perfect in focus. It's airborne, its paws are off the floor. Everything about it is absolutely right. Four or five goes, you know, because I'm shooting at maybe 10 frames a second. The focusing is more or less keeping up because of course, every time you take a picture, the mirror slaps up and the focusing then has to predict where the dog might have ended up. It's not doing, it's not tracking it at that point, and then you move to mirrorless. Um, and the Z9 that I use now, the Nikon is an unbelievable piece of kit. It locks onto the dog. I can shoot at 20 frames a second. Um, and one of those shots is invariably the shot I'm looking for. And, and that sounds like I'm cheating in some ways, but when you are a professional photographer, your job is to do the very best for your client. And so instead of spending an inordinate, inordinate amount, it's not easy for me to say a very long time. Um. You know, trying to get the right shot. Now I can do it very quickly and move on to another shot so we can provide a wider variety to our clients. And that's true with running children too. Yes. So the technology has changed and the techniques have changed with it. Um, now you're seeing on the back of your camera or through the viewfinder exactly the image. Not a facsimile of it, not a mirror. Prism view of it, you're seeing precisely what you're gonna capture. Um, and that gives you a huge amount of confidence in the shot and a huge amount of control too. You can really fine tune exactly how you want the exposure to be. For instance, you know, you don't have to worry about, is that right? Let's must check the histogram afterwards. You can check the histogram, live in the viewfinder and all these little bits, just make your job different. They, you connect with the shot in a different way. You connect with a client in a different way, and that's the tech side. But I've also, you know, I, in 10 years, I'm 10 years older. You know, in some ways I'm 10 years faster. In other ways, I'm 10 years slower. You know, the cameras are quicker, my shots are quicker, my knees are slower. Um, and it's a different perspective on life. I also teach a lot. The podcast, the book itself, the first edition of the book, led us to the podcast and the website where we run workshops and everything else. So all of this cumulative knowledge, when you look back at the old book, and while I'm still massively proud of it, the new edition was a wonderful opportunity to sit down and say, what would I like, how would I like to be represented this time? Yes, and it's a much more grown up approach, I think. I mean, I, I wasn't a kid back then, but this time around because the book was successful, instead of providing 10 pictures for every slot, I provided the picture I want, in that slot. Right? And so the book is much closer to how I would like it to be as a photographer. Every picture. Now, I could tell you a story about every single picture, every single client, and having the luxury of success on the first version gave me the luxury of being able to do more of what I wanted in this version. This is much more reflective, I think. Of me personally. Yes. And so I've, I've loved it. It's absolutely, it's such a, a lovely process to go through. Sarah: So how many pictures have been changed between the two versions? Paul: All bar one. Sarah: bar one. How intriguing. So will you tell us what the one is, or is that Paul: can, you can go and find that out for yourself. Yeah, so there's one single image that hasn't been changed. There's single image that hasn't been but every other image has has changed from the first edition. Uh, just a caveat to that, of course, some of the kit pictures, uh, 'cause they were generic, they've stayed the same. But every portrait, Wow. every single portrait except for one, has been changed. Sarah: And how did you go about choosing those pictures? 'cause I can imagine, you know, if you're starting effectively with a blank canvas for where the images have gotta go, uh, how on earth did you do that Paul: Um, slowly the publisher will tell you, uh. The thing to you have to remember though, is that this is an updated edition. Yes. And that was the contract. It was not a complete start again. So, although I had the opportunity to change every picture, every picture had to fit into an almost identical space because they weren't gonna redesign it. Right. It's updated edition and we have to be clear about that. So part of the puzzle was not just, which pictures do I want to illustrate, which point. It was, which pictures in the same shape previous do I want to illustrate? I mean, there's some wiggle room in there, but the designers did not want to do a full redesign. That was not what we were contracted for. Um, obviously the words were being updated too. And both Sarah and myself, um, I mean, since the first book I now write for magazines and online articles and things all the time, I write for all sorts of photography stuff. Um, and so actually both Sarah and myself wrote words this time round. Um, but nonetheless, we couldn't change too much. We could bring it up to date, but there, there were still bits that, you know, if I was being truly honest, there are things that I think in the past 10 years have become less relevant. And things, it would've been nice to have put some different stuff in, but that again, this is an updated edition, um, not a complete from the ground up rewrite. So actually I sat down and I looked at all of the, um, chapters and the words that we'd written in the first edition and thought about what we were trying to illustrate and went back to sort of basics really, and where I already had pictures in the portfolio. Um, we used pictures of great clients, interesting light, interesting locations, interesting techniques where there are certain things where, I'm not sure, the first time round, um, the illustrations of them were as good as I, as strong as I would've liked. I shot them again here in the studio, so things like the lighting pattern. You know, I have, I've talked about them for 10 years, these lighting patterns. So it was a really nice chance to sit Katie, who works for us in the studio, uh, to sit Katie in front of the camera and say, right, this is what we're gonna do. And I worked every lighting pattern and redrew every diagram to make that absolutely on point, which I think the first time round, while they are very, very good. They're not what I would've liked them to be this time round. So there was that side of it too. And then of course, and I'm sure you're gonna come onto it, there's a couple of, well, there's a new chapter in there which did give us a chance to explore something a little bit different. Um, so yeah, it was just a long process of finding pictures that if I'm gonna put my name to it, are the ones that I would like. Yes. And it's not always the best picture. It's not always the competition winners. they're in there. They are in there. Of course they're in there. Um, but I think this time round, um, I really enjoyed reminiscing. I think some of the pictures in there, they're all beautiful pictures, don't get me wrong. But some of the people I picked to be in them are people because actually that was a moment that I will remember for the rest of my life for all sorts of reasons. And I think the, the strongest example of that is our cover shot is Dory now. The story of Dory. That sounds really weird. The story of Dory? photo. Dory. Story of photograph. Oh yeah, my you met Dory? Or should we go with I dunno if the story of Dory that's like, sounds like a children's book. That'd be a great chance to write a children's book. So Sarah and I were having dinner. Dory was working in the restaurant that, uh, we are having dinner in. Um, I laughed to Sarah and said, I think, um, Dory would photograph beautifully. Sarah said, we'll, go and ask her. And I asked her and she said, no. She absolutely said no, categorically. And I said, okay. Then I wrote our email address, sorry, I wrote our web address. Uh, on the back of a, of a napkin and handed it to her. I said, look, you know, if you're not interested, that's fine, but have a look at my work. Um, and this was after the first edition of mastering portrait photography, and my idea was for Dorie to come to the studio and we'd film some stuff where we photographed her and use it for information, stuff for people who read the book and maybe create some YouTube videos and things. Um, anyway, at four o'clock in the morning, got an email back from Dory saying, actually, I've just looked at your work. Yes, please. And Dory has gone on to be someone we've worked with fairly regularly. Um, mostly, um, because she's just the nicest person in the world, but also she's supremely photogenic and you bring those two things together and they're the kind of people I love to work with. I love to celebrate. Photography with, so her picture, one of those pictures I shot in that session is the cover shot in the book and she features later on as well. 'cause she's come back with her husband and her kids and it's just a delight. And then there, you know, there are people from all over the world. Um, and so there's a lot of memories in there for both me and for you I Yes, Um, and it was, uh, just a pleasure to go through it. Oh, and the other thing is every single shot is shot since we published the first edition. So I did limit us to the past 10 everything is limited to what, what you've captured in the last 10 years? Yeah. Yes. Because figured that, um, if you're gonna do an updated edition, then, although there were pictures in the first version of the book, I would've loved to have had in there that never made it. Why don't we start from that point and move forwards? Other than the one Other than other than the one other than, one Sarah: so you've, you've talked a little bit about how you've changed and that's been reflected in the book. You've talked a little bit about how the technology has changed, but probably one of the biggest changes has been post-production, um, the introduction of, of ai. So is that reflected in the book, Paul: Yeah, of course it is. Um, the post-production chapter, um, I mean, the thing with post-production is that's a volume of books in and of itself. Uh, we put it into the book Sarah and myself, because I think it was important to note that an image isn't generally finished in camera. It's finished when it's finished. And this is true for film, by the way. This is not news, you know? Um, and it's for as long as film has been shot, transparency's and negatives. People have been doing a certain amount of post-production on them afterwards in their development tanks. Um, or whether they're doing hand toning or something is', this isn't new for me. I think you're about halfway there. Now, the second half might be a very short half, but it's almost certainly gonna evolve, at the very least, um, brightening controlling your tones and cropping. Okay. Maybe a bit of sharpening if that's your thing. So we put that chapter in just to make the point that there is a finishing stage. That was 10 years ago. In those 10 years, everything has changed. Yes. Yes. You know, even if I just kept it to the Photoshopping that we had in the first edition, all of that is different. I. And of course AI has now arrived. Um, I mean, it's a precocious child of a technology at the moment, but it's growing up really very fast and it's gonna affect us in every single element of us as creatives of, of us as business owners. There's, there's no part of our work. Even. Even the people that say I don't believe in AI are using cameras that have AI in them. You know, there's no way of escaping it. It's here with us and you can fight it if you want. And there are bits of it that I'm not that comfortable with. Certainly some of the training, the way they did it on images, without any acknowledgement of copywriting things, it's problematic. But in the end, it's here, it's now, and if you don't embrace it, the people who are in your market as a professional competing with you. Are embracing it so there's no getting around it. So yeah, there's a part of our post-production now talks about specifically EVOTO.AI, which is the app that we use. There's others as well re Bloom and a few others that do a very similar thing. Um, and we've put it in there. Again, not as this is what AI does, but for make, to make people aware that AI is now part of the puzzle. Use it, don't use it. And that's completely your choice. The same as it is with Photoshop. But it's a good place to just remind people. That this is the direction of travel for a good chunk of the industry. So yeah, we've changed that quite a lot. Sarah: And a section at the end. Is it Paul: my favorite section? Yes. this Sarah: a, this was a request from you to add this in. Paul: Yes, yes. Um, there's a, one of the things with doing this as a job, and it's not just a risk, it really does happen, is you find yourself. Sort of burnt out isn't the right word for it, really, or the right phrase for it. But you find yourself same old, same old, same old. You get good at stuff, you get known for stuff. People ask you to do that stuff. You do more of it. You, you're still good at it, but eventually you start to find yourself just a little bit flat. Um, and it happens all the time. And so I put a chapter and I asked the publishers if we could wiggle some stuff around and make some space to put one specific chapter in. It's not a long chapter, but to me it might be the most important chapter in there. It's about staying creative. It's just little techniques, little ideas for staying on top of your game, thinking of new things, being a creative. And, and being a creative is something you have to work at. You can't just, you don't just invent ideas. You have to be open to seeing things and thinking things and trying things, experimenting, working with different people, having mentoring. These are all the facets that I wanted to just in a very short chapter, 'cause we could only squeeze in a couple of pages. But it's the chapter that I think I am the most proud of Sarah: Yes. And knowing you as well as I do, you know, it's part of my challenge in the business is making sure that you keep motivated and keep being creative. So I, I know how important it's, and how we have to put shoots in the diary and, and do things that are just for you, for no other reason. Just than just to let you play. So I, I can see how important that is. Paul: Yeah. I'm, I'm aware of just how much cotton wool you wrap me in and I can feel it building as well. I always know when I'm not firing on all cylinders, because you start to sort of wrap cotton wool around me and start to think about putting it in other things that we need to do, or just a break to get away for a week. You know, there's those things. It's really hard. It's hard being a creative, as in it's hard to be a creative a hundred percent of the time, and b, creative a hundred percent of the time. The, the, you know, being called a creative is one thing, but actually being creative is a process of invention and experimenting and doing things that you haven't done before. That's the point of being creative. Um, and so, yeah, I'm always aware when I'm clearly starting to feel a bit frazzled because I can feel you starting to. Talk about doing other things. Sarah: So what I didn't realize is what you said earlier, that the, all the images have all been taken since the last book. Um, and they're from clients we've had all around the world as well. So I wondered if it would be. Nice to pull out a couple of our favorite images. Um, I sort of going on from your comments about staying creative. One that jumps out to me is when, um, Vivian and Dody came to the studio and, you know, this was a, a lady who came in with her West Highland tert. So Westy Westy, it's a white west. Highland, ter. And, um, we did some beautiful shots indoors, outdoors, um, having lots of fun. And then you built this, uh, amazing scene, um, which is including in the, included in the posing chapter. Do you wanna just explain and tell me a little bit about that one? Yeah. Um. Paul: Um, you know, Dodie, sorry. Vivian had emailed Dodie didn't email, obviously Doty's Do's dog, Vivian Vivian emailed to say she wanted a shoot with her dog. And I kind of, I say I distinctly remember the email. I remember what she said in the email, which is that she couldn't find another photographer who photographed the owner with their dog. Now, I dunno how hard Vivian looked. I'm not, I'm sure there's a lot of photographers listening to this that photograph dogs with their owners and I judge a lot now as a, as a judge and as a coach. So I know it to. Out there. But anyway, she landed on us and I'm thrilled that she did Vivian and, uh, Dodie turned at the studio. And Vivian is just beautiful. She's elegant. She has a real sort of gentle way about her, uh, and this beautiful little West Highland ter, which was for the first 10 minutes, I have to be honest in now. Backstory, my Nan had repeatedly West Highland Terriers. My Nan repeatedly did not train her. Westie, my Nan's dogs repeatedly bit us all of us as kids, as teenagers, as adults. Even my dad would like shut the door and run because this dog would go for him. And so when she turned up with this little Westie, I must admit I backed away. However, Dodi, just like Vivian, was gentle and calm and just followed her around and, and he would sit. In the studio just looking at her while we worked, if it was shots for her on her own. And then when she scooped him up or we tried to do something with him, he was so patient and so well behaved. So I've got this incredible client who wants to do these shots, and at the end of the shoot sometimes the greatest privilege you get is to say to someone, how long have you got? And if they've got a little bit more time. What you can do is say, would you mind just trying a few bits with us? So we cleaned the studio out. It's a white, the, the dog was a white dog. Vivian had a light colored outfit and this kind of fair, and she was just, it. It struck me that we could do something interesting with the white walls of the studio, the white floor of the studio, the white posing blocks that I've had probably for 20 years here. And so I did a couple of things and we, we shot some different combinations and then in the post-production STA stage, I built a model of our studio in 3D in blender, it with blocks exactly the same. And then I can create almost any scene I wanted around this shot that's right in the middle of Dodi looking up at Vivian. Um, and it was one of those shoots that, I mean, every shoot in here, there's a story similar to this where I could tell you it's a shoot I'll remember forever. Um, and it was, and it was just a, a real luxury and, and just, you know, I dunno if Vivian listens to the podcast, but hello. Um, and Vivian's also very kindly sourced books from China for us. Yeah. yes. It's hard to get hold of some of these things when you are not in country. So we're still in touch with her very much. He's a lovely client. Another one that, um, oh, actually there's quite a few in the book from where we work as master photographers with Crystal cruises and so, um. Sarah: We've got this lovely line where we talk about the book, where is it From Venice to Vietnam and Haddenham to Hawaii. Yeah. But, uh, one of my favorite shoots that's included is Christine, when we were in Brena Aires, and actually this is from this year when we were in South America and there's quite a few people that we borrowed on the ship to get some pictures. And also what a lovely opportunity. I think it's in locations. Um. Where there is it and where was it? It was in Le Bocca. Wasn't Itca Le Bocca with Christine? Do you Well, a little bit about that one? What's Paul: It has been a, a real luxury for us in the intervening 10 years. So a lot happened in 20 14, 20 15. And one of the things that happened around the time of the book was they were asked to work with Crystal Cruises, a company that provided the photography to them. Interviewed myself and Sarah. Sorry, us too. It's weird talking, made a third person and giving it right here. Um, interviewed us as a team and ever since then we've been traveling the world with them grading high-end portraits for these beautiful international clients. Um, and this time round the deadline. Not the instigation, but the deadline for the book came up while we were working for about seven weeks around South America on the cruise. So I already had earmarked images from previous cruises, previous visits to different places. But when I was on the ship, there were a couple of people, um, that really leapt out just. Ship. And one of the great luxuries when you have something like a book or you like you've become well known as a photographer, is you can say to people, would you mind stepping in to allow us to take some photographs? So there's a couple of people from the crew where you have to get permission to work with the crew. Um, there's, um. Uh, Barbara is one of the team on there. Uh, say Hi is one of the people on there, um, who were crew members that we just loved the way they were with us. They made our lives wonderful. And so we photographed them specifically to put them in the book. Um, and then there's a client of ours, which is the one you've alluded to, which is Christine Now. We met Christine at the end of another shoot, and this is. Um, I mean, remember this is still the Mastering Portrait Photography podcast, and so it's always worth remembering some of the things that you can do as photographers. This is not just an interview about me in a book, but here's some ideas for you that work. So on the ship, we had just done a shoot, an amazing shoot, and a lady who was in that shoot was showing her images round the bar to all of her friends on our iPad. Now we were drinking, we were sat and we were sat next to this lovely lady who was very quiet and we'd said hello and had a quick chitchat, but not majorly a long conversation. When our client handed us back the iPad, Christine, who was the lady who was sitting with us, said, do you mind if I have a look? And I said, yeah, of course. It'd be my pleasure. You know? So she had a look and she said, would you be willing to do that for me? And I said, well, of course we would, you know, this is what we're here for. Um, and so we arranged to do a couple of different bits. A couple of it is actually two different shoots, but we did a site visit to Le Baca, this area in Buenos Aires. Is that right? Yes. Bueno Aires. Was it? No. Yes. Yes, it was. Bueno Argentina. Yeah. Thank you. Are confused. So we, we did a couple of visits to this place in, uh, bueno Aires Laca to go and check it out for different locations. Uh, myself and you and Keith, who's our client, strictly speaking, who runs the, the photo. Um, company found all these locations and went the following day with Christine to go and explore this really beautiful, touristy area of leer. It's very characterful, it's very hot. Um, very intense actually. There's a lot going on and you do have to have your head on a swivel. Yes. it's quite notorious for pickpockets and thefts and so you do have to be careful. So, Sarah, I mean you, sorry, this is really weird. So I'm used those to talking on my own. So you and me, we were working as a team with Keith. Christine was not. Christine was stealing sausages from barbecue places and running them down alleyways that probably she shouldn't have been. Christine everywhere, but really where we wanted her to be, which was safe and in our site. Um, and if you remember, we kind of, um, we went round a corner. In fact, we were just heading back to the car. We, so Christina had arranged the driver and we'd gone round the corner, haven't we? And we were in this little street. And I just, I looked over the top of the cars to the street shops, the shop fronts on the other side of the road and thought that would make a great picture because the color of Christine's dress, the color of these shops, the whole scene would just be something interesting. But I'm shooting across the road through cars. Um, we've got Keith on the other side of the road with her. You are on the side of the road with me. Both of us trying to keep eyes everywhere 'cause we've now stepped out of the touristy bit. We are now in an area where, strictly speaking, you shouldn't be hanging around with a 10,000 pound camera. Yes. Um, so I dragged the shutter. I got, I got everything else. I wanted it and dragged the shutter in a gap between the cars as somebody walked past. And I have this shot of Christine killing herself, laughing, looking at the camera. Um. With somebody walking past and it has this real vibe of a street shot, a candid shot. It's not, it's been staged, but it's one of my favorite shots in the book because it's, to me, every time I look at it, and this is true of your clients too, and when you're listening, the photographers are listening to this. Remember this every picture, if you've created an experience around it, that picture. We'll hold memories for that client of yours. And it's true for me too. This experience was amazing. We're still in touch with Christine. She's desperate for us to go out and visit her in Texas. Um, but it was such a privilege, such a pleasure. So much laughter and that every time I open that page in the book, that's what it takes me it. I I'm with I love the colors, I love everything about it. And it's nice that it's such a lovely story too. crazy story. Sarah: So who do you think the book is for? Who do you think we'd pick it up and find useful? Paul: Well, I'm hoping another 50,000 people will be. I've, I don't, I don't have total control over that. Um. It's really this, I think there's something for almost any portrait interested photographer in there. Um, if you are already a pro, you're probably not gonna pay a lot of attention to the kit chapter at the beginning. That won't be your shtick. Um, but there will be stuff on posing and interactions and some of the post-production might be of interest. Um, if you are ready. You know, a supremely experienced photographer, you might like it simply 'cause the pictures are really beautiful. I still buy photo books because I will pick them up, look at the pictures and think, do you know what? I'm gonna use that idea. I'm gonna meld that into something else I'm doing because I like, I love seeing. Great photographs. If you are truly a beginner, there's enough in there to get you going. And some of the techniques are a little bit further out there, but mostly it builds on this idea that you have a camera, you have a client, you have your subject, and you're gonna create an experience. And then from that experience, great pictures. So I think it's broader than possibly the mastering portrait photography title gives it. Um, but it covers a little bit of all bases. And it certainly has enough in there to say, actually there's, there's stuff in there that if you do this, it really is quite, um, sophisticated. Yes. Do you, we don't know at this stage in terms of whether it'll be translated into other languages that that usually comes a year after, doesn't it? After the, you last time, say. It was only when I started getting emails in Italian. Yes. Um, that I noticed what happened. And we didn't know if you remember that it was in Chinese and Korean no. we started to put the marketing together for this book. Yes. And we asked the publisher AB, in absolute terms, how many copies have you sold? Yes. And they back with different language versions that we never knew about. Yeah. So, you know. Been been a, a journey of discovery, a journey. a journey. Yes. So, yeah, who knows? I, I really hope they do, uh, create some, uh, different language versions of it. 'cause there's nothing quite like seeing your work in Italian, Yes. So, And, and Chinese, I think that's the one I find the, the most intriguing. Sarah: So the book is officially launched next Tuesday, I believe. Is the 28th. The 28th. Um, so what, what's on the horizon next is what, what are you gonna be doing with the book and knows? Um, I mean, obviously the first thing we've gotta do is get through the launch of the book. Yes. Um, which is exciting. And obviously us two have been walking the studio trying to figure out how to tidy the whole place up. 'cause we haven't done a full on party probably since the last book. No. Or thereabouts. So we've we're inviting. Everybody who's featured in the book Yeah. Um, to a, a launch at the weekend. Yeah. Um, and we are refreshing all of the pictures in the studio, uh, to reflect the pictures that are in the book as well. And it's just, it'll be such a lovely thing to do and it's, I can't wait to see everything when it's up. Yeah. So that's, but next week's gonna be a bit fraught It's 'cause in the middle of all that, I think I've got five shoots to work my way through. Right. I don't sleep much. I a challenge. Yeah. I'm not, I'm I'm not being super, thankfully. Um, so there's that. And then, you know, once that gets rolling, of course I go back to our regular job. I'm judging for the British Institute. Professional photographers print competition straight after. So we've got. A big bash on the Saturday night. Yeah. Uh, for all of our, all the people in the book on the Sunday, we're inviting anybody's around to come and a studio open day, studio open day in the afternoon. And then at some point in that afternoon, I have to go all the way up to Preston Salubrious, uh, Preston, to go and begin the process of judging the print competition for the 2025 print masters. So a lot going on. And you're gonna be busy signing books as well. yeah, It's been a while since I've had to sit and do a big a book signing, but there's a load of that going on. Yeah. Uh, it's just lovely. exciting. It really is. Well, I think that just about brings us to the end of everything. So I've enjoyed being on the other side of everything. Sarah: So I'd just like to say, Paul, thank you ever so much for letting me do that and sitting on the other side of the mic today, um. We have got a limited number of copies here at the studio that Paul can sign, but they will be available at all. Good bookshops, um, with water zones. I think there's some competitions going where they will be with Graphistudio and with. Um. A professional photo. Yeah. Yep. So there's, there's lots of ways for you to get your hands on it and uh, we'd love to know what you think of it and um, especially if you've got the first version and seeing the second version, we'd love some feedback 'cause we are so proud of it. And especially with the pictures in there, and if you can tell us what's that, what's the picture in there that, that haven't been changed? That will be even better. There's no prize. So, no, thank you. Thank you very much. Well, it's a pleasure. And you know what you've gotta say now, don't you? What's that? If you've enjoyed this podcast, is it? No. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please head over to mastering portrait photography.com, which is full of articles. And as it happens, I'm doing all of the behind the scenes diagrams and stories for the images that are in this book. It'll probably take me 10 years to get there, but there's a couple of hundred of those. Uh, and of course, whatever else you do. be kind to yourself. Take care guys.  

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• EP166 Interview With Mark & Simon From Elinchrom UK

  EP166 Interview With Mark & Simon From Elinchrom UK I sit down with Mark Cheatham and Simon Burfoot from Elinchrom UK to talk about the two words that matter most when you work with light: accuracy and consistency. We dig into flash vs. continuous, shaping light (not just adding it), why reliable gear shortens your workflow, and Elinchrom’s new LED 100 C—including evenly filling big softboxes and that handy internal battery. We also wander into AI: threats, tools, and why authenticity still carries the highest value.   Links: Elinchrom UK store/info: https://elinchrom.co.uk/ LED 100 C product page: https://elinchrom.co.uk/elinchrom-led-100-c Rotalux Deep Octa / strips: https://elinchrom.co.uk/elinchrom-rotalux-deep-octabox-100cm-softbox/ My workshop dates: https://masteringportraitphotography.com/workshops-and-mentoring/ Transcript: Paul: as quite a lot of, you know, I've had a love affair with Elinchrom Lighting for the past 20 something years. In fact, I'm sitting with one of the original secondhand lights I bought from the Flash Center 21 years ago in London. And on top of that, you couldn't ask for a nicer set of guys in the UK to deal with. So I'm sitting here about to talk to Simon and Mark from Elinchrom uk. I'm Paul and this is the Mastering Portrait Photography podcast. Paul: So before we get any further, tell me a little bit about who you are, each of you and the team from Elinchrom UK Mark: After you, Simon. Simon: Thank you very much, mark. Mark: That's fine. Simon: I'm, Simon Burfoot. I have, been in the industry now for longer than I care to think. 35 years almost to the, to the day. Always been in the industry even before I left school because my father was a photographer and a lighting tutor, working for various manufacturers I was always into photography, and when he started the whole lighting journey. I got on it with him, and was learning from a very young age. Did my first wedding at 16 years old. Had a Saturday job which turned into a full-time job in a retail camera shop. By the time I was 18, I was managing my own camera shop, in a little town in the Cotswolds called Cirencester. My dad always told me that to be a photographic rep in the industry, you needed to see it from all angles, to get the experience. So I ended up, working in retail, moving over to a framing company. Finishing off in a prolab, hand printing, wedding photographers pictures, processing E6 and C41, hand correcting big prints for framing for, for customers, which was really interesting and I really enjoyed it. And then ended up working for a company called Leeds Photo Visual, I was a Southwest sales guy for them. Then I moved to KJP before it became, what we know now as Wex, and got all of the customers back that I'd stolen for them for Leeds. And then really sort of started my career progressing through, and then started to work with Elinchrom, on the lighting side. Used Elinchrom way before I started working with them. I like you a bit of a love affair. I'd used lots of different lights and, just loved the quality of the light that the Elinchrom system produced. And that's down to a number of factors that I could bore you with, but it's the quality of the gear, the consistency in terms of color, and exposure. Shooting film was very important to have that consistency because we didn't have Photoshop to help us out afterwards. It was a learning journey, but I, I hit my goal after being a wedding photographer and a portrait photographer in my spare time, working towards getting out on the road, meeting people and being involved in the industry, which I love. And I think it's something that I'm scared of leaving 'cause I dunno anything else. It's a wonderful industry. It has its quirks, its, downfalls at points, but actually it's a really good group of people and everyone kind of, gets on and we all love working with each other. So we're friends rather than colleagues. Paul: I hesitate to ask, given the length of that answer, to cut Simon: You did ask. Mark: I know. Paul: a short story Mark: was wondering if I was gonna get a go. Paul: I was waiting to get to end into the podcast and I was about to sign off. Mark: So, hi Mark Cheatham, sales director for Elinchrom uk this is where it gets a little bit scary because me and Simon have probably known each other for 10 years, yet our journeys in the industry are remarkably similar. I went to college, did photography, left college, went to work at commercial photographers and hand printers. I was a hand printer, mainly black and white, anything from six by four to eight foot by four foot panels, which are horrible when you're deving in a dish. But we did it. Paul: To the generation now, deving in a dish doesn't mean anything. Simon: No, it doesn't. Mark: And, and when you're doing a eight foot by four foot print and you've got it, you're wearing most of the chemistry. You went home stinking every night. I was working in retail. As a Saturday lad and then got promoted from the Saturday lad to the manager and went to run a camera shop in a little town in the Lake District called Kendall. I stayed there for nine years. I left there, went on the road working for a brand called Olympus, where I did 10 years, I moved to Pentax, which became Rico Pentax. I did 10 years there. I've been in the industry all my life. Like Simon, I love the industry. I did go out the industry for 18 months where I went into the wonderful world of high end commercial vr, selling to blue light military, that sort of thing. And then came back. One of the, original members of Elinchrom uk. I don't do as much photography as Simon I take photos every day, probably too many looking at my Apple storage. I do shoot and I like shooting now and again, but I'm not a constant shooter like you guys i'm not a professional shooter, but when you spent 30 odd years in the industry, and part of that, I basically run the, the medium format business for Pentax. So 645D, 645Z. Yeah, it was a great time. I love the industry and, everything about it. So, yeah, that's it Paul: Obviously both of you at some point put your heads together and decided Elinchrom UK was the future. What triggered that and why do you think gimme your sales pitch for Elinchrom for a moment and then we can discuss the various merits. Simon: The sales pitch for Elinchrom is fairly straightforward. It's a nice, affordable system that does exactly what most photographers would like. We sell a lot of our modifiers, so soft boxes and things like that to other users, of Prophoto, Broncolor. Anybody else? Because actually the quality of the light that comes out the front of our diffusion material and our specular surfaces on the soft boxes is, is a lot, lot more superior than, than most. A lot more superior. A lot more Mark: A lot more superior. Paul: more superior. Simon: I'm trying to Paul: Superior. Simon: It's superior. And I think Paul, you'll agree, Paul: it's a lot more, Simon: You've used different manufacturers over the years and, I think the quality of light speaks for itself. As a photographer I want consistency. Beautiful light and the effects that the Elinchrom system gives me, I've tried other soft boxes. If you want a big contrasty, not so kind light, then use a cheaper soft box. If I've got a big tattoo guy full of piercings you're gonna put some contrasty light to create some ambience. Maybe the system for that isn't good enough, but for your standard portrait photographer in a studio, I don't think you can beat the light. Mark: I think the two key words for Elinchrom products are accuracy and consistency. And that's what, as a portrait photographer, you should be striving for, you don't want your equipment to lengthen your workflow or make your job harder in post-production. If you're using Elinchrom lights with Elinchrom soft boxes or Elinchrom modifiers, you know that you're gonna get accuracy and consistency. Which generally makes your job easier. Paul: I think there's a bit that neither of you, I don't think you've quite covered, and it's the bit of the puzzle that makes you want to use whatever is the tool of your trade. I mean, I worked with musicians, I grew up around orchestras. Watching people who utterly adore the instrument that's in their hand. It makes 'em wanna play it. If you own the instrument that you love to play, whether it's a drum kit a trumpet a violin or a piano, you will play it and get the very best out of your talent with it. It's just a joy to pick it up and use it for all the little tiny things I think it's the bit you've missed in your descriptions of it is the utter passion that people that use it have for it. Mark: I think one of the things I learned from my time in retail, which was obviously going back, a long way, even before digital cameras One of the things I learned from retail, I was in retail long before digital cameras, retail was a busier time. People would come and genuinely ask for advice. So yes, someone would come in and what's the best camera for this? Or what's the best camera for that? Honestly there is still no answer to that. All the kit was good then all the kit is good now. You might get four or five different SLRs out. And the one they'd pick at the end was the one that they felt most comfortable with and had the best connection with. When you are using something every day, every other day, however it might be, it becomes part of you. I'm a F1 fan, if you love the world of F1, you know that an F1 car, the driver doesn't sit in an F1 car, they become part of the F1 car. When you are using the same equipment day in, day out, you don't have to think about what button to press, what dial to to turn. You do it. And that, I think that's the difference between using something you genuinely love and get on with and using something because that's what you've got. And maybe that's a difference you genuinely love and get on with Elinchrom lights. So yes, they're given amazing output and I know there's, little things that you'd love to see improved on them, but that's not the light output. Paul: But the thing is, I mean, I've never, I've never heard the F1 analogy, but it's not a bad one. When you talk about these drivers and their cars and you are right, they're sort of symbiotic, so let's talk a little bit about why we use flash. So from the photographers listening who are just setting out, and that's an awful lot of our audience. I think broadly speaking, there are two roads or three roads, if you include available light if you're a portrait photographer. So there's available light. There's continuous light, and then there's strobes flash or whatever you wanna call it. Of course, there's, hybrid modeling and all sorts of things, but those are broadly the three ways that you're gonna light your scene or your subject. Why flash? What is it about that instantaneous pulse of light from a xenon tube that so appealing to photographers? Simon: I think there's a few reasons. The available light is lovely if you can control it, and by that I mean knowing how to use your camera, and control the ambient light. My experience of using available light, if you do it wrong, it can be quite flat and uninteresting. If you've got a bright, hot, sunny day, it can be harder to control than if it's a nice overcast day. But then the overcast day will provide you with some nice soft, flat lighting. Continuous light is obviously got its uses and there's a lot of people out there using it because what they see is what they get. The way I look at continuous light is you are adding to the ambient light, adding more daylight to the daylight you've already got, which isn't a problem, but you need to control that light onto the subject to make the subject look more interesting. So a no shadow, a chin shadow to show that that subject is three dimensional. There are very big limitations with LED because generally it's very unshapable. By that I mean the light is a very linear light. Light travels in straight lines anyway, but with a flash, we can shape the light, and that's why there's different shapes and sizes of modifiers, but it's very difficult to shape correctly -an LED array, the flash for me, gives me creativity. So with my flash, I get a sharper image to start with. I can put the shadows and the light exactly where I want and use the edge of a massive soft box, rather than the center if I'm using a flash gun or a constant light. It allows me to choose how much or how little contrast I put through that light, to create different dynamics in the image. It allows me to be more creative. I can kill the ambient light with flash rather than adding to it. I can change how much ambient I bring into my flash exposure. I've got a lot more control, and I'm not talking about TTL, I'm talking about full manual control of using the modifier, the flash, and me telling the camera what I want it to do, rather than the camera telling me what it thinks is right. Which generally 99% of the time is wrong. It's given me a beautiful, average exposure, but if I wanted to kill the sun behind the subject, well it's not gonna do that. It's gonna give me an average of everything. Whereas Flash will just give me that extra opportunity to be a lot more creative and have a lot more control over my picture. I've got quite a big saying in my workshops. I think a decent flash image is an image where it looks like flash wasn't used. As a flash photographer, Paul, I expect you probably agree with me, anyone can take a flash image. The control of light is important because anybody can light an image, but to light the subject within the image and control the environmental constraints, is the key to it and the most technical part of it. Mark: You've got to take your camera off P for professional to do that. You've got to turn it off p for professional and get it in manual mode. And that gives you the control Paul: Well, you say that, We have to at some point. Address the fact that AI is not just coming, it's sitting here in our studios all the time, and we are only a heartbeat away from P for professional, meaning AI analyzed and creating magic. I don't doubt for a minute. I mean, right now you're right, but not Mark: Well, at some point it will be integrated into the camera Paul: Of course it will. Mark: If you use an iPhone or any other phone, you know, we are using AI as phone photographers, your snapshots. You take your kids, your dogs, whatever they are highly modified images. Paul: Yeah. But in a lot of the modern cameras, there's AI behind the scenes, for instance, on the focusing Mark: Yeah. Paul: While we've, we are on that, we were on that thread. Let's put us back on that thread for a second. What's coming down the line with, all lighting and camera craft with ai. What are you guys seeing that maybe we're not Simon: in terms of flash technology or light technology? Paul: Alright. I mean, so I mean there's, I guess there's two angles, isn't there? What are the lights gonna do that use ai? What are the controllers gonna do, that uses ai, but more importantly, how will it hold its own in a world where I can hit a button and say, I want rebrand lighting on that face. I can do that today. Mark: Yeah. Simon: I'm not sure the lighting industry is anywhere near producing anything that is gonna give what a piece of software can give, because there's a lot more factors involved. There's what size light it is, what position that light is in, how high that light is, how low that light is. And I think the software we've all heard and played with Evoto we were talking about earlier, I was very skeptical and dubious about it to start with as everybody would be. I'm a Photoshop Lightroom user, have been for, many years. And I did some editing, in EEvoto with my five free credits to start with, three edits in, I bought some credits because I thought, actually this is very, very good. I'll never use it for lighting i'd like to think I can get that right myself. However, if somebody gives you a, a very flat image of a family outside and say, well, could you make this better for me? Well, guess what? I can do whatever you like to it. Is it gonna attack the photographer that's trying to earn a living? I think there's always a need for people to take real photographs and family photographs. I think as photographers, we need to embrace it as an aid to speed up our workflow. I don't think it will fully take over the art of photography because it's a different thing. It's not your work. It's a computer generated AI piece of work in my head. Therefore, who's responsible for that image? Who owns the copyright to that image? We deal with photographers all the time who literally point a camera, take a picture and spend three hours editing it and tell everyone that, look at this. The software's really good and it's made you look good. I think AI is capable of doing that to an extent. In five years time, we'll look back at Evoto today and what it's producing and we'll think cracky. That was awful. It's like when you watch a high definition movie from the late 1990s, you look at it and it was amazing at the time, but you look at it now and you think, crikey, look at the quality of it. I dunno if we're that far ahead where we won't get to that point. The quality is there. I mean, how much better can you go than 4K, eight K minus, all that kind of stuff. I'm unsure, but I don't think the AI side of it. Is applicable to flash at this moment in time? I don't know. Mark: I think you're right. To look at the whole, photography in general. If you are a social photographer, family photographer, whatever it might be, you are genuinely capturing that moment in time that can't be replaced. If you are a product photographer, that's a different matter. I think there's more of a threat. I think I might be right in saying. I was looking, I think I saw it on, LinkedIn. There is a fashion brand in the UK at the moment that their entire catalog of clothing has been shot without models. When you look at it on the website, there's models in it. They shoot the clothing on mannequins and then everything else is AI generated they've been developing their own AI platform now for a number of years. Does the person care Who's buying a dress for 30 quid? Probably not, but if you are photographing somebody's wedding, graduation, some, you know, a genuine moment in someone's life, I think it'd be really wrong to use any sort of AI other than a little bit of post-production, which we know is now quite standard for many people in the industry. Paul: Yeah, the curiosity for me is I suspect as an industry, Guess just released a full AI model advert in, Vogue. Declared as AI generated an ai agency created it. Everything about it is ai. There's no real photography involved except in the learning side of it. And that's a logical extension of the fact we've been Photoshopping to such a degree that the end product no longer related to the input. And we've been doing that 25 years. I started on Photoshop version one, whatever that was, 30 years More than 33. So we've kind of worked our way into a corner where the only way out of it is to continue. There's no backtracking now. Mark: Yeah. Paul: I think the damage to the industry though, or the worry for the industry, I think you're both right. I think if you can feel it, touch it, be there, there will always be that importance. In fact, the provenance of authenticity. Is the high value ticket item now, Simon: Mm-hmm. Paul: because you, everything else is synthetic, you can trust nothing. We are literally probably months away from 90% of social media being generated by ai. AI is both the consumer and the generator of almost everything online Mark: Absolutely. Paul: Goodness knows where we go. You certainly can't trust anything you read. You can't trust anything you see, so authenticity, face-to-face will become, I think a high value item. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Paul: I think one problem for us as an industry in terms of what the damage might be is that all those people that photograph nameless products or create books, you know, use photography and then compositing for, let's say a novel that's gone, stock libraries that's gone because they're faceless. Simon: Mm-hmm. Paul: there doesn't have to be authentic. A designer can type in half a dozen keywords. Into an AI engine and get what he needs. If he doesn't get what he needs, he does it again. All of those photographers who currently own Kit are gonna look around with what do we do now? And so for those of us who specialize in weddings and portraits and family events, our market stands every chance of being diluted, which has the knock on effect of all of us having to keep an eye on AI to stay ahead of all competitors, which has the next knock on effect, that we're all gonna lean into ai, which begs the question, what happens after Because that's what happened in the Photoshop world. You know, I'm kind of, I mean, genuinely cur, and this will be a running theme on the podcast forever, is kind of prodding it and taking barometer readings as to where are we going? Mark: Yeah. I mean, who's more at threat at the moment from this technology? Is it the photographer or is it the retouch? You know, we do forget that there are retouchers That is their, they're not photographers. Paul: I don't forget. They email me 3, 4, 5 times a day. Mark: a Simon: day, Mark: You know, a highly skilled retouch isn't cheap. They've honed their craft for many years using whatever software product they prefer to use. I think they're the ones at risk now more so than the photographer. And I think we sort of lose sight of that. Looking at it from a photographer's point of view, there is a whole industry behind photography that actually is being affected more so than you guys at the moment. Simon: Mm-hmm. Paul: Yeah, I think there's truth in that, but. It's not really important. Of course, it's really important to all of those people, but this is the digital revolution that we went through as film photographers, and probably what the Daguerreotype generators went through when Fox Tolbert invented the first transfer. Negative. You know, they are, there are always these epochs in our industry and it wipes out entire skillset. You know, I mean, when we went to digital before then, like you, I could dev in a tank. Yeah. You know, and really liked it. I like I see, I suspect I just like the solitude, Mark: the dark, Paul: red light in the dark Mark: yeah. Paul: Nobody will come in. Not now. Go away. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. But of course those skills have gone, has as, have access to the equipment. I think we're there again, this feels like to me a huge transition in the industry and for those who want to keep up, AI is the keeping up whether you like it or not. Mark: Yeah. And if you don't like it, we've seen it, we're in the middle of a massive resurgence in film photography, which is great for the industry, great for the retail industry, great for the film manufacturers, chemical manufacturers, everything. You know, simon, myself, you, you, we, we, our earliest photography, whether we were shooting with flash, natural light, we were film shooters and that planes back. And what digital did, from a camera point of view, is make it easier and more accessible for less skilled people. But it's true. You know, if you shot with a digital camera now that's got a dynamic range of 15 stops, you actually don't even need to have your exposure, that accurate Go and shoot with a slide film that's got dynamic range of less than one stop and see how good you are. It has made it easier. The technology, it will always make it. Easier, but it opens up new doors, it opens up new avenues to skilled people as well as unskilled people. If you want, I'm using the word unskilled again, I'm not being, a blanket phrase, but it's true. You can pick up a digital camera now and get results that same person shooting with a slide film 20 years ago would not get add software to that post-production, everything else. It's an industry that we've seen so many changes in over the 30 odd years that we've been in it, Simon: been Mark: continue Simon: at times. It exciting Mark: The dawn of digital photography to the masses. was amazing. I was working for Olympus at the time when digital really took off and for Olympus it was amazing. They made some amazing products. We did quite well out of it and people started enjoying photography that maybe hadn't enjoyed photography before. You know, people might laugh at, you know, you, you, you're at a wedding, you're shooting a really nice wedding pool and there's always a couple of guests there which have got equipment as good as yours. Better, better than yours. Yeah. Got Simon: jobs and they can afford it. Mark: They've got proper jobs. Their pitches aren't going to be as good as yours. They're the ones laughing at everyone shooting on their phone because they've spent six grand on their new. Camera. But if shooting on a phone gets people into photography and then next year they buy a camera and two years later they upgrade their camera and it gets them into the hobby of photography? That's great for everyone. Hobbyists are as essential, as professional photographers to the industry. In fact, to keep the manufacturers going, probably more so Simon: the hobbyists are a massive part. Even if they go out and spend six or seven or 8,000 pounds on a camera because they think it's gonna make them a better photographer. Who knows in two years time with the AI side, maybe it will. That old saying, Hey Mr, that's a nice camera. I bet it takes great pictures, may become true. We have people on the lighting courses, the workshops we run, the people I train and they're asking me, okay, what sessions are we gonna use? And I'm saying, okay, well we're gonna be a hundred ISO at 125th, F 5.6. Okay, well if I point my camera at the subject, it's telling me, yeah, but you need to put it onto manual. And you see the color drain out their faces. You've got a 6,000 pound camera and you've never taken it off 'P'. Mark: True story. Simon: And we see this all the time. It's like the whole TTL strobe manual flash system. The camera's telling you what it wants to show you, but that maybe is not what you want. There are people out there that will spend a fortune on equipment but actually you could take just as good a picture with a much smaller, cheaper device with an nice bit of glass on the front if you know what you're doing. And that goes back to what Mark was saying about shooting film and slide film and digital today. Paul: I, mean, you know, I don't want this to be an echo chamber, and so what I am really interested in though, is the way that AI will change what flash photography does. I'm curious as to where we are headed in that, specific vertical. How is AI going to help and influence our ability to create great lip photography using flash? Mark: I think, Paul: I love the fact the two guys side and looked at each other. Mark: I, Simon: it's a difficult question to answer. Mark: physical light, Simon: is a difficult question to answer because if you're Mark: talking about the physical delivery of light. Simon: Not gonna change. Mark: Now, The only thing I can even compare it to, if you think about how the light is delivered, is what's the nearest thing? What's gotta change? Modern headlamps on cars, going back to cars again, you know, a modern car are using these LED arrays and they will switch on and switch off different LEDs depending on the conditions in front of them. Anti dazzle, all this sort of stuff. You know, the modern expensive headlamp is an amazing technical piece of kit. It's not just one ball, but it's hundreds in some cases of little arrays. Will that come into flash? I don't know. Will you just be able to put a soft box in front of someone and it will shape the light in the future using a massive array. Right? I dunno it, Simon: there's been many companies tested these arrays, in terms of LED Flash, And I think to be honest, that's probably the nearest it's gonna get to an AI point of view is this LED Flash. Now there's an argument to say, what is flash if I walk into a living room and flick the light on, on off really quickly, is that a flash? Mark: No, that's a folock in Paul: me Mark: turn, big lights off. Paul: Yeah. Mark: So Simon: it, you, you might be able to get these arrays to flush on and off. But LED technology, in terms of how it works, it's quite slow. It's a diode, it takes a while for it to get to its correct brightness and it takes a while for it to turn off. To try and get an LED. To work as a flash. It, it's not an explosion in a gas field tube. It's a a, a lighter emitting diode that is, is coming on and turning off again. Will AI help that? Due to the nature of its design, I don't think it can. Mark: Me and s aren't invented an AI flash anytime soon by the looks of, we're Simon: it's very secret. Mark: We're just putting everyone off Paul, Simon: It's alright. Mark: just so they don't think Simon: Yeah, Mark: Oh, it's gonna be too much hard work and we'll sort it. Paul: It's definitely coming. I don't doubt for a minute that this is all coming because there's no one not looking at anything Simon: that makes perfect sense. Paul: Right now there's an explosion of invention because everybody's trying to find an angle on everything. Simon: Mm-hmm. Paul: The guys I feel the most for are the guys who spent millions, , on these big LED film backdrop walls. Simon: Yep. Mark: So you can Paul: a car onto a flight sim, rack, and then film the whole lot in front of an LED wall. Well, it was great. And there was a market for people filming those backdrops, and now of course that's all AI generated in the LED, but that's only today's technology. Tomorrow's is, you don't need the LED wall. That's here today. VEO3 and Flow already, I mean, I had to play with one the other day for one of our lighting diagrams and it animated the whole thing. Absolute genius. Simon: Mm-hmm. Paul: I still generated the original diagram. Mark: Yeah, Paul: Yeah, that's useful. There's some skill in there still for now, but, you gotta face the music that anything that isn't, I can touch it and prod it. AI's gonna do it. Mark: Absolutely. If you've ever seen the series Mandalorian go and watch the making of the Mandalorian and they are using those big LED walls, that is their backdrop. Yeah. And it's amazing how fast they shift from, you know, they can, they don't need to build a set. Yeah. They shift from scene to scene. Paul: Well, aI is now building the scenes. But tomorrow they won't need the LED wall. 'cause AI will put it in behind the actors. Mark: Yeah. Say after Paul: that you won't need the actors because they're being forced to sign away the rights so that AI can be used. And even those that are standing their ground and saying no, well, the actors saying Yes. Are the ones being hired. You know, in the end, AI is gonna touch all of it. And so I mean, it's things like, imagine walking into a studio. Let's ignore the LED thing for a minute, by the way, that's a temporary argument, Simon: I know you're talking about. Paul: about today's, Simon: You're about the. Mark: days Paul: LEDs, Simon: we're in, We're in very, very interesting times and. I'm excited for the future. I'm excited for the new generation of photographers that are coming in to see how they work with what happens. We've gone from fully analog to me selling IMACON drum scanners that were digitizing negatives and all the five four sheet almost a shoot of properties for an estate agent were all digitized on an hassle blood scanner. And then the digital camera comes out and you start using it. It was a Kodak camera, I think the first SLRI used, Paul: Yeah. Simon: and you get the results back and you think, oh my God, it looks like it's come out of a practica MTL five B. Mark: But Simon: then suddenly the technology just changes and changes and changes and suddenly it's running away with itself and where we are today. I mean, I, I didn't like digital to start with. It was too. It was too digital. It was too sharp. It didn't have the feel of film, but do you know what? We get used to it and the files that my digital mirrorless camera provide now and my Fuji GFX medium format are absolutely stunning. But the first thing I do is turn the sharpness down because they are generally over sharp. For a lovely, beautifully lit portrait or whatever that anybody takes, it just needs knocking back a bit. We were speaking about this earlier, I did some comparison edits from what I'd done manually in Photoshop to the Evoto. Do you know what the pre-selected edits are? Great. If you not the slider back from 10 to about six, you're there or thereabouts? More is not always good. Mark: I think when it comes to imagery in our daily lives, the one thing that drives what we expect to see is TV and most people's TVs, everything's turned up to a hundred. The color, the contrast, that was a bit of a shock originally from the film to digital, crossover. Everything went from being relatively natural to way over the top Just getting back to AI and how it's gonna affect people like you and people that we work with day to day. I don't think we should be worried about that. We should be worried about the images we see on the news, not what we're seeing, hanging on people's walls and how they're gonna be affected by ai. That generally does affect everyone's daily life. Paul: Yeah, Mark: Yeah. But what Paul: people now ask me, for instance, I've photographed a couple head shots yesterday, and the one person had not ironed her blouse. And her first question was, can we sort that out in post? So this is the knock on effect people are becoming aware of what's possible. What's that? Nothing. Know, and the, the smooth clothing button in Evoto will get me quite a long way down that road and saves somebody picking up an eye and randomly, it's not me, it's now actually more work for me 'cause I shouldn't have to do it. But, you know, this is my point about the knock on effect. Our worlds are different. So I didn't really intend this to be just a great sort of circular conversation about AI cars and, future technology. It was more, I dunno, we ended up down there anyway. Simon: We went down a rabbit hole. Mark: A Paul: rabbit hole. Yeah Mark: was quite an interesting one. Simon: And I'm sorry if you've wasted your entire journey to work and we Paul: Yeah. Simon: Alright. It wasn't intended to be like that. Paul: I think it's a debate that we need to be having and there needs to be more discussion about it. Certainly for anybody that has a voice in the industry and people are listening to it because right now it might be a toddler of a technology, but it's growing faster than people realize. There is now a point in the written word online where AI is generating more than real people are generating, and AI is learning that. So AI is reading its own output. That's now beginning to happen in imagery and film and music. Simon: Well, even in Google results, you type in anything to a Google search bar. When it comes back to the results, the first section at the top is the AI generated version. And you know what, it's generally Paul: Yep. Simon: good and Paul: turn off all the rest of it now. So it's only ai. Simon: Not quite brave enough for that yet. No, not me. Mark: In terms Paul: of SEO for instance, you now need to tune it for large language models. You need to be giving. Google the LLM information you want it to learn so that you become part of that section on a website. And it, you know, this is where we are and it's happening at such a speed, every day I am learning something new about something else that's arriving. And I think TV and film is probably slightly ahead of the photography industry Mark: Yeah. Paul: The pressures on the costs are so big, Simon: Yes. Paul: Whereas the cost differential, I'm predicting our costs will actually go up, not down. Whereas in TV and film, the cost will come down dramatically. Mark: Absolutely. Simon: They are a horrifically high level anyway. That's Paul: I'm not disputing that, but I watched a demo of some new stuff online recently and they had a talking head and they literally typed in relight that with a kiss light here, hairlight there, Rembrandt variation on the front. And they did it off a flat picture and they can move the lights around as if you are moving lights. Yes. And that's there today. So that's coming our way too. And I still think the people who understand how to see light will have an advantage because you'll know when you've typed these words in that you've got it about right. It doesn't change the fact that it's going to be increasingly synthetic. The moment in the middle of it is real. We may well be asked to relight things, re clothe things that's already happening. Simon: Yeah. Paul: We get, can you just fill in my hairline? That's a fairly common one. Just removing a mole. Or removing two inches round a waist. This, we've been doing that forever. Simon: Mm-hmm. Paul: And so now it'll be done with keyword generation rather than, photoshop necessarily. Simon: I think you'll always have the people that embrace this, we can't ignore it as you rightly say. It's not going away. It's gonna get bigger, it's gonna feature more in our lives. I think there's gonna be three sets of people. It's gonna be the people like us generally on a daily basis. We're photographers or we're artists. We enjoy what we do. I enjoy correctly lighting somebody with the correct modifier properties to match light quality to get the best look and feel and the ambience of that image. And I enjoy the process of putting that together and then seeing the end result afterwards. I suppose that makes me an artist in, in, in loose terms. I think, you know, as, as, as a photographer, we are artists. You've then got another generation that are finding shortcuts. They're doing some of the job with their camera. They're making their image from an AI point of view. Does that make up an artist? I suppose it still does because they're creating their own art, but they have no interest 'cause they have no enjoyment in making that picture as good as it can be before you even hit the shutter. And then I think you've got other people, and us to an extent where you do what you need to do, you enjoy the process, you look at the images, and then you just finely tune it with a bit of AI or Photoshop retouching so I think there are different sets of people that will use AI to their advantage or completely ignore it. Mark: Yeah. I think you're right. And I think it comes down, I'm going to use another analogy here, you, you know, let's say you enjoy cooking. If you enjoy cooking, you're creating something. What's the alternative? You get a microwave meal. Well, Paul Simon: and Sarah do. Mark: No. Paul: Sarah does. Simon: We can't afford waitress. Mark: You might spend months creating your perfect risotto. You've got it right. You love it. Everyone else loves it. You share it around all your friends. Brilliant. Or you go to Waitrose, you buy one, put it three minutes in the microwave and it's done. That's yer AI I Imagery, isn't it? It's a microwave meal. Paul: There's a lot of microwave meals out there. And not that many people cook their own stuff and certainly not as many as used to. And there's a lesson. Simon: Is, Mark: but also, Simon: things have become easier Mark: there Simon: you go. Mark: I think what we also forget in the photographic industry and take the industry as a whole, and this is something I've experienced in the, in the working for manufacturers in that photography itself is, is a, is a huge hobby. There's lots of hobbyist photographers, but there's actually more people that do photography as part of another hobby, birdwatching, aviation, all that sort of thing. Anything, you know, the photography isn't the hobby, it's the birds that are the hobby, but they take photographs of, it's the planes that are the hobby, but they take photographs. They're the ones that actually keep the industry going and then they expand into other industries. They come on one of our workshops. You know, that's something that we're still and Simon still Absolutely. And yourself, educating photographers to do it right, to practice using the gear the right way, but the theory of it and getting it right. If anything that brings more people into wanting to learn to cook better, Paul: you Mark: have more chefs rather than people using microwave meals. Education's just so important. And when it comes to lighting, I wasn't competent in using flash. I'm still not, but having sat through Simon's course and other people's courses now for hundreds of times, I can light a scene sometimes, people are still gonna be hungry for education. I think some wills, some won't. If you wanna go and get that microwave risotto go and microwave u risotto. But there's always gonna be people that wanna learn how to do it properly, wanna learn from scratch, wanna learn the art of it. Creators and in a creative industry, we've got to embrace those people and bring more people into it and ensure there's more people on that journey of learning and upskilling and trying to do it properly. Um, and yes, if they use whatever technology at whatever stage in their journey, if they're getting enjoyment from it, what's it matter? Paul: Excellent. Mark: What a fine Paul: concluding statement. If they got enjoyment outta it. Yeah. Whatever. Excellent. Thank you, Mark, for your summing up. Simon: In conclusion, Paul: did that just come out your nose? What on earth. Mark: What Paul: what you can't see, dear Listener is the fact that Mark just spat his water everywhere, laughing at Si. It's been an interesting podcast. Anyway, I'm gonna drag this back onto topic for fear of it dissolving into three blokes having a pint. Mark: I think we should go for one. Simon: I think, Paul: I think we should know as well. Having said that with this conversation, maybe not. I was gonna ask you a little bit about, 'cause we've talked about strobes and the beauty of strobes, but of course Elinchrom still is more than that, and you've just launched a new LED light, so I know you like Strobe Simon. Now talk about the continuous light that also Elinchrom is producing. Simon: We have launched the Elinchrom LED 100 C. Those familiar with our Elinchrom One and Three OCF camera Flash system. It's basically a smaller unit, but still uses the OCF adapter. Elinchrom have put a lot of time into this. They've been looking at LED technology for many years, and I've been to the factory in Switzerland and seen different LED arrays being tested. The problem we had with LEDs is every single LED was different and put out a different color temperature. We're now manufacturing LEDs in batches, where they can all be matched. They all come from the same serial number batch. And the different colors of LED as well, 15 years ago, blue LEDs weren't even possible. You couldn't make a blue LED every other color, but not blue for some unknown reason. They've got the colors right now, they've got full RGB spectrum, which is perfectly accurate a 95 or 97 CRI index light. It's a true hundred watts, of light as well. From tosin through to past daylight and fully controllable like the CRO flash system in very accurate nth degrees. The LED array in the front of the, the LEDA hundred is one of the first shapeable, fully shapeable, LED arrays that I've come across and I've looked at lots. By shapeable, I mean you put it into a soft box, of any size and it's not gonna give you a hotspot in the middle, or it's not gonna light the first 12 inches of the middle of the soft box and leave the rest dark. I remember when we got the first LD and Mark got it before me And he said, I've put it onto a 70 centimeter soft box. And he said, I've taken a picture to the front. Look at this. And it was perfectly even from edge to edge. When I got it, I stuck it onto a 1 3 5 centimeter soft box and did the same and was absolutely blown away by how even it was from edge to edge. When I got my light meter out, if you remember what one of those is, uh, it, uh, it gave me a third of a stop different from the center to the outside edge. Now for an LED, that's brilliant. I mean, that's decent for a flash, but for an LED it's generally unheard of. So you can make the LED as big as you like. It's got all the special effects that some of the cheaper Chinese ones have got because people use that kind of thing. Apparently I have no idea what for. But it sits on its own in a market where there are very cheap and cheerful LEDs, that kind of do a job. And very expensive high-end LEDs that do a completely different job for the photographer that's gone hybrid and does a bit of shooting, but does a bit of video work. So, going into a solicitor's or an accountant's office where they want head shots, but also want a bit of talking head video for the MD or the CEO explaining about his company on the website. It's perfect. You can up the ISO and use the modeling lamp in generally the threes, the fives, the ones that we've got, the LEDs are brilliant. But actually the LED 100 will give you all your modifier that you've taken with you, you can use those. It's very small and light, with its own built-in battery and it will give you a very nice low iso. Talking head interview with a lovely big light source. And I've proved the point of how well it works and how nice it is at the price point it sits in. But it is our first journey into it. There will be others come in and there'll be an app control for it. And I think from an LED point of view, you're gonna say, I would say this, but actually it's one of the nicer ones I've used. And when you get yours, you can tell people exactly the same. Paul: Trust me, I will. Simon: Yes. Mark: I think Paul: very excited about it. Mark: I think the beauty of it as well is it's got an inbuilt battery. It'll give you up to 45 minutes on a full charge. You can plug it in and run it off the mains directly through the USB socket as well. But it means it's a truly portable light source. 45 minutes at a hundred watt and it's rated at a hundred watt actual light output. It's seems far in excess of that. When you actually, Simon: we had a photographer the other day who used it and he's used to using sort of 3, 2 50, 300 watt LEDs and he said put them side by side at full power. They were virtually comparable. Paul: That is certainly true, or in my case by lots. Simon: I seem to be surrounded Paul: by Elinchrom kit, Which is all good. So for anybody who's interested in buying one of these things, where'd you get them? How much are they? Simon: The LED itself, the singlehead unit is 499 inc VAT. If you want one with a charger, which sounds ridiculous, but there's always people who say, well, I don't want the charger. You can have one with a charger for 50 quid extra. So 549. The twin kit is just less than a thousand quid with chargers. And it comes in a very nice portable carry bag to, to carry them around in. Um, and, uh, yeah, available from all good photographic retailers, and, Ellen crom.co uk. Paul: Very good. So just to remind you beautiful people listening to this podcast, we only ever feature people and products, at least like this one where I've said, put a sales pitch in because I use it. It's only ever been about what we use here at the studio. I hate the idea of just being a renta-voice. You it. Mark: bought it. Paul: Yeah. That's true. You guys sold it to me. Mark: Yeah, Simon: if I gave you anything you'd tell everyone it was great. So if you buy it, no, I've bought Paul: Yeah. And then became an ambassador for you. As with everything here, I put my money where my mouth is, we will use it. We do use it. I'm really interested in the little LED light because I could have done with that the other night. It would've been perfect for a very particular need. So yes, I can highly recommend Elinchrom Fives and Threes if you're on a different system. The Rotalux, system of modifier is the best on the planet. Quick to set up, quick to take down. More importantly, the light that comes off them is just beautiful, whether it's a Godox, whether it's on a ProPhoto, which it was for me, or whether if you've really got your common sense about you on the front of an Elinchrom. And on that happy note and back to where we started, which is about lighting, I'm gonna say thanks to the guys. They came to the studio to fix a problem but it's always lovely to have them as guests here. Thank you, mark. Thank you Simon. Most importantly, you Elinchrom for creating Kit is just an absolute joy to use. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please head over to all your other episodes. Please subscribe and whatever is your podcast, play of choice, whether it's iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or a other. After you head, if you head across to masteringportraitphotography.com the spiritual home of this, particular, podcast, I will put in the show notes all the little bits of detail and where to get these things. I'll get some links off the guys as to where to look for the kit. Thank you both. I dunno when I'll be seeing you again. I suspect it will be the Convention in January if I know the way these things go. Simon: We're not gonna get invited back, are we? Mark: Probably not. Enough. Paul: And I'm gonna get a mop and clean up that water. You've just sprayed all over the floor. What is going on? Simon: wish we'd video. That was a funny sun Mark: I just didn't expect it and never usually that sort of funny and quick, Simon: It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. Paul: On that happy note, whatever else is going on in your lives, be kind to yourself. Take care.

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• EP165 AI Won’t Take Your Job. But Another Photographer Using It Just Might.

  This one starts with a dodgy lane choice, a Starbucks coffee, and a misjudged underpass. As always. I’m back in the Land Rover — which might be its final podcast outing before it finds a new home — and today’s episode is a rambling, reflective road trip through customer service, creative resilience, and the rapidly growing presence of AI in our industry. The day started badly. Cold shower (thanks British Gas), broken editing software, and a head full of terabytes. But it ended with a reminder of why kindness, craftsmanship, and conversation still matter. A haircut from someone I’ve known for 18 years. A deep chat with the owner of Michel Engineering while he lovingly took apart my ancient-but-beautiful record deck — the very same design featured in A Clockwork Orange and owned by Steve Jobs, no less. And then... a disappointing interaction with a distracted barista and a headset-wearing drive-thru operator. Same building, worlds apart. Customer service, it turns out, is alive and well — just not always where you'd expect it. But the main theme of this episode is AI. Not the doom-and-gloom kind, but the real stuff: the tools I’m already using, how they’re reshaping our workflows, and how they might be reshaping entire economies. It’s not AI that’s coming for your job — it’s the photographer who learns to harness it. We talk about: AI tools I already use (like EVOTO, Imagine AI, ChatGPT, and XCi) Using AI as a teaching assistant, sub-editor, and productivity coach The real-world implications of AI-generated ads, coding layoffs, and what it means for creatives Plans for a new AI section on masteringportraitphotography.com And if you hang in there until the end, I’ll tell you about a girl named Dory, a gutsy 12-year-old contortionist, and the new edition of Mastering Portrait Photography — complete with fresh images, a decade of stories, and a very special launch offer. So pop on your headphones, admire the wheat fields if you’ve got them, and come along for the ride. Spoiler: there’s C3PO’s eye in here too. Yes, really.   🛠️ Mentioned in this episode: Michel Engineering (Turntables) – evoto.ai Imagine AI – Smart colour-matching editing masteringportraitphotography.com/workshops-and-mentoring Transcript Introduction and Setting the Scene Well, as you can probably gather from the noise going on in the background I'm back out in the Land Rover, uh, for one more podcast out on my travels. Um, you'll have to bear with me as I navigate the carpark away from Starbucks. Uh, it's been an interesting day in so many, so many ways, and I will talk about all of that.   Uh, where do I, where do I start? Right? Well, I'm back out on the road. Maybe one of the last ones.    Memorable Cars and the Land Rover   The Land Rover is, as many of you know, now up for sale and not because I don't absolutely love this vehicle. It is by far, by far and away my favorite car that I've ever owned, and I've owned some cars that I have truly loved.   Of course, my first car, an Austin Allegro affectionately named nicknamed Benny, as in Benny from Top Cat. Um, because it's small, bubbly, and round. Um, I owned a Mark two Ford Escort with a steering wheel so small you could touch your thumbs across it, but an engine so small that it really wasn't a sports car, but that was just a beautiful thing.   I've owned a Lexus IS 200, which. From a speed freak point of view is a lot more lively than even this Land Rover is, but in the end. This four wheel drive farmer's vehicle has traveled with me all over the uk from job to job, from client to client. And even today as I was visiting, uh, a place to get my record deck repaired, which I will tell you about, the guy that owns the company came out and all he could do, in spite of the fact we're looking at one of the rarest record decks around.   In spite of that, all he could do was talk about the Land Rover. I'm Paul, and this is the Mastering Portrait Photography  📍 podcast.    Oh, do you know what I've just done? You know, when you get in a lane, because there's a roundabout coming that I have to turn right at. So I got in a lane and now I'm in an underpass going underneath the roundabout. That I needed to turn right at. How that's really frustrating. I hate it when that happens.   However, I'm up in Hichin, uh, Stevenage way, um, in the southeastern ish corner of the uk. Weirdly enough, I've been here before. I thought I recognized it. This is where I photographed Kevin Fong in the, um, British Aerospace. It looks like it's now Airbus here. I've just driven past the lab where we photograph Kevin Fong on the moon, on the Mars Lander.   A test area. So they've built, it's like the size of a football pitch or two. It's huge. This huge great expanse of sand and rocks, and they've lit it like the light would be on Mars. I don't know. Why that would be important if you are testing Moon Lands or Mars lands. I haven't a clue. Uh, but it's where they tested, uh, or at least the British scientists tested their parts of the Mars rover and things.   I've been here before. I photographed here. Uh, that's not why I here this particular moment. Uh, but I wanna start. Oh, there it is. Look at that. How cool. Sorry. This is way Yeah. Home of the exo Mars rover. I've been in there. Wow. Some days, some days ev well, every day is an adventure. Some days more than others.   Right? Now, let's see me, let's see if I can get into the underpass the right way around this time, having turned around to head back home, mop it.    Navigating the Day and Customer Service   Um, I wanted to talk about a few things today, but one of the things that came up, which wasn't meant to really, so this is now gonna be a two part podcast. Let me talk about customer service first.   And it starts yesterday. Really, let me tell you a bit of my day yesterday. Not if I'm honest, my best day and we all have them. So the upshot is, everything worked out and I have the photographs I needed or I need, but getting there proved trickier than it does normal. And that's in spite of the fact that I talk in.   Very good story ab about being present and giving it your all. So the day started fairly badly with a cold shower. The boiler broke, well, it broke the night before. Actually it broke on Sunday night. So I got on the bike, did some exercise, sweated a lot, went to have a nice, warm, refreshing shower and had, well, it was a refreshing shower, but a cold one.   It was, I mean, I know they say a cold shower is meant to be good for you, not for me. Alright. It left me in a crappy mood and knowing I had to get in touch with British gas, um, the week before British acid service, the boiler, now it's broken. So you can imagine, as much as I'm trying to be stoic and sensible about these things, I'm really quite cross.   Uh, I try my best not to take it out on those around me. I took it out on those around me, uh, and to all those people around me, I do apologize. And by that I mean predominantly Sarah, who takes the, the brunt of all of my crappy moods when they happen. Uh, thankfully it doesn't happen too often, uh, but when they happen, it is always Sarah that's in the firing line.   So, um, after trolling through the website and trying to get an engineer booked, that was no good. They couldn't bring, couldn't send anyone out till. Tuesday or they said they couldn't send anyone out to Tuesday. Let me just navigate this Range Rover that's creeping on my inside. Thank you. Um, so, uh, yesterday morning, Monday morning, um, I got on the phone to talk to someone.   I thought, do you know what I'll do instead of trying to use computer systems, I'll talk to someone. Well, uh, I talked to a computer. I said, yes, no, no, yes. And, uh, punched in my credit card details because in spite of the fact the engineer probably broke the boiler. Um, we still have to have a credit card ready for any excess.   Now, the upshot is quite a good one, is that by calling in, I did mostly get a, an appointment far earlier than I could do on their website, which doesn't really make any sense given that on the website, I'm assuming it is plugged into exactly the same. Booking system that the automated voice was in case you in any doubt?   No. I didn't get to speak to a human. I got to speak to a very, very poor AI or automated something or other. Anyway, so that was the start of the day. Then in the office, Katie's machine running Da Vinci stopped talking to Frame io. Now for those of you into it, da Vinci is our editing suite, any videos and Frame io is where we store our assets.   Now this isn't ideal if the editing suite can't talk to the asset store. That's the end of a day's work, really. So that put me in a fairly bad mood. And then we're gonna be photographing three amazing kids. So we're doing a video on siblings. Why you photograph them, how you photograph them, the laughter involved in photographing them.   And we've got this amazing family, three teenagers and uh, they were due in and sure enough, they arrived and I still had my head inside. What do I do if Da Vinci no longer talks to Frame io? We're gonna have to re-license a load of stuff. I'm gonna have to move a couple of terabytes of assets around, which as anyone who's done it knows it's.   Probably, you know, a week's worth of work for me. Um, everything was just piling up and I was struggling to get my head into it. And of course they're teenagers and they're excited about coming into the studio, and I wanted to give them the best. Experience. I can, even though they're not here as a client, they have been as a client before, but they're not here as a client.   They're here because I would like to create a video about photographing siblings. So I owe it to them in so many ways to give the very best of me. And I was struggling. And I think in reality, probably for about an hour, I struggled to get myself into that zone where you are creating. Beautiful pictures.   The light wasn't light, I didn't feel great. My head is spinning because I think I've got days of work ahead of me to fix something else. Um, got there Eventually we did get both the photographs and the video ready to create, uh, another one of our mastering portrait photography videos this time on photographing siblings, how to approach it, what to look for, things you can do.   And then on top of that, some top tips for top Tip Tuesday on our socials. But it's really important when it comes to the service levels. At the end of the day, their customers and I offer our customer service, and that has an interesting run on into today. So today, so far, what time is it? It is quarter to one.   I've been on the road since about quarter past eight this morning, so I went for a haircut first. Our reg, my regular hairstylist, who I've been going to for 18 years, we worked out this morning. I photographed her wedding 18 years ago, and I'd known her a little bit before then when I pitched for the work and did a prew wedding shoot.   So 18, 19 years, I've been going to cap for a haircut and we chat shit. I mean, we just. Laugh and talk nonsense sometimes. Sometimes really serious stuff. 'cause she's got kids. I've got kids different ages, but you know, we've lived through similar things. I've watched her business grow and change over the years.   She's worked with me, I've worked with her. And I would say that her customer service is some of the best I've ever met. There's only her now. She did run a multi, a multi station, um, uh, salon for ages, but in the end decided that she would rather just work on her own, have a nice, steady, um, client base, um, who she knew and does very well, that which has a client at home.   But in spite of that, or maybe because of that, her customer service is absolutely brilliant as long as you don't try to text her late in the evening. We might get quite a short answer.    The Record Deck Repair Adventure   And then today I've been over to get my record deck serviced. Now the kids have been on at me for about, about this for a few years now.   It's been broken. Um, and it came to a head this Father's Day when they said, what would I like? And I thought, well, find me a record or something. And they both went, no. And I'm like, sorry, what? They said, we're not buying you anymore records until you fix your flipping record deck because it's been broken for so long.   And you'd said you're gonna get it fixed and you haven't. So we're no longer buying your records. Now that's not to say I didn't get some really cool gifts from them, but it did sort of, okay, I take your point. Let me go get this sorted. So I rang in to the company that originally made it so a bit of history.   The record deck is a transcripter hydraulic reference turntable. The company was called Transcripter. Um, it's the same age as I am. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. It's glass and aluminum and big brass weights, soft belt drive. You can still get from the same company. A record deck that is derived from it called the Gyro.   It's worth thousands and thousands of pounds. Um, their decks. This deck isn't worth anything until it works. And then. Probably is worth a thousand pounds. If anyone has watched Stanley Kubrick's Clockwork Orange, then he will recognize the deck because it's that record deck. He won a design award in about 1967, I think, and he's still got the little British Design Award sticker on the lid, on the, the plastic, sorry, the Perspex cover.   It's all original. It was built by the company. I've just visited Michel Engineering and they make these most incredible, beautiful record decks. Now, I rang in a couple of weeks ago and they said, look, we haven't got any slots for service for a few weeks. Um, ringing again on the 24th of July, which I did.   So I rang on the 24th. Um, as it happened, it was Steven who owns Michel Engineering now, um, who picked up, I chatted to him and he's. When can you bring it in? So I said today, um, I'm on the road. Um, so why not bring it in on today, Tuesday? So, um, I brought it in, um, the most incredible service. Uh, I obviously, I didn't carry it to the door 'cause I didn't really know which one of the industrial units I was headed to.   So I buzzed it as it happened. It was Steven, um, opened the door and I told him who I was and he said, oh, put you in. And I said, oh great. And he said, no, no, I'll come with you. So we went over to the Land Rover where I parked up. First thing he does, I admire the Land Rover, which always makes you feel good.   Um, which followed up quite quickly with me by saying, it's you, it's up for sale. Um, and a chat there about pricing. Who knows? You never know, do you? Anyway, he admired the Land Rover, so I'm feeling better already. So I opened up the boot and there's obviously my record deck, this transcript, uh, hydraulic reference to the table.   And he's obviously seen a few of these, but he said, oh, that's a, that's an old one, that's an original. And I went to pick it up and he said, no, no, I'll carry it. Don't worry. So he picked it up outta the Land Rover and I locked it up. We took it into the service lab where it sits now amongst a few similar ones, some newer ones, well all newer ones.   Um, we took it apart or he took it apart and had a look at the different components. Um, puffed his cheeks out a little bit, which is always good when you're talking to an engineer. It's a bit like when you take your car into a garage and they go, oh mate, ah, your rings. But he was very affectionate, very respectful of the record deck, and it was built pre 1972.   And the way he knows that is there's no serial number on it because before 19. 72. They didn't put serial numbers on him, so he's got this very old turntable that my dad bought in. I think it was about 19 81, 82. He paid 15 pounds worth 15 of your British pounds at a jumble sale. Well, this deck is worth anywhere between 1500 quid and two and half thousand pounds of today's money secondhand.   Um, so my dad actually did pretty well. Uh, I dunno if he realized what he'd bought. It didn't work, which is why it was only 15 quid. But my dad attacked it with a soldier line. Probably the same things I've now got to have repaired this time. But he took all the bits off and he showed me how it worked and he explains it in detail.   And we just got chatting. We got chatting to the point where when I come back to pick up the record deck, Steven has very kindly agreed to come on the podcast because we talked about quality, we talked about the love of vinyl, which to an extent, I, I have a nostalgia for vinyl, but I don't have a particularly sophisticated, um, sense of hearing.   So I can't pick out the details that probably their guys can. But I appreciate the engineering and of course it was my dad. So now somebody who cares about it probably as much as I. Who is looking after it is gonna fix the bits that are not right. And given it was a gift from my dad to me for my 40th birthday, it was built around about the same year that I was born.   My dad bought it for 15 quid and absolutely loved it. And now it's in the hands of the company who built it. The very first company though, is his father who set up the company. There's this whole set of layers to the story that are gonna add even more love to it, even more passion for listening to records that the kids have bought me on it, and the service that they offer is so personable and so knowledgeable.   I couldn't help but just get excited. I got excited just walking in. By the time I left, he showed me this room. They've got a room downstairs with some of their legacy, Michelle. It's called M-I-C-H-E-L-L, Michelle Turntables and Michelle. And they've done all sorts of things over the years, not least of which is to create C3 PO's eyes.   No kid, you not, uh, my joy hit the floor when he was telling me he said, yeah, you know, it's based on some stuff we already had in some odd bins. And because it was all made round here where I'm driving the original Star Wars was actually filmed all around this area, Borum Wood, um, and Stevenage in West London.   And so the guys who were doing the special effects used to just hunt round OddBins around all the industrial states. They found some off cuts of something that was, I dunno what it was, a bit of a record deck I think. And hoed them out and modified them and they became C3 PO's eyes. I've literally just been eye to eye with one of C3 PO's eyes.   Um, also lots of stuff for Stanley Kubrick. Um, uh, Steven was telling me that his dad built, uh. Spaceship from Space Odyssey, the model of it. Um, you just, I dunno, you just get this sense of history and passion and just a love of engineering. Beautiful old school British engineering and. As part of that conversation, we talked about so many things.   I cannot wait to get him on the podcast. I think you'll find him hopefully as fascinating as I did, at least those of you that enter a little bit of media, his history, a little bit of film history. Also, if you're into your record decks, the record deck that these guys make, the the Michelle M-I-C-H-E-L-L, I will put a link in the, in the show notes so you can go and have a look at the things they they made because they are stunningly beautiful.   And if I was in the market for that kind of high fire, I'd have one. There's nothing like it. You've seen it in a million films. Steve Jobs owned one. This is how good it is. And I've just been chatting to the guys who made it off the back of that. I ended up talking about ai, which I'm gonna come back to, but let me take the story of customer service forwards just a little bit.   So I've left there. We've talked about all sorts of things. We've talked about his love of Laua, for instance, where I work regularly and I'm forever telling people they are the exemplar of customer service. They are the epitome of it. They are the very best of the very best. And I've been lucky enough to work all over the world with all sorts of companies and all sorts of places.   Um, LA Manu is the benchmark for how, in my opinion, customer service can be and should be done. He agrees. We've talked at a length about it, um, and. What a, a wonderful conversation it was. So I left there really buoyant and I thought, do you know what I'll do? I'm gonna nip into Starbucks, which is just on the same complex where they're based.   Um, write some notes for the podcast 'cause I'm driving so I've got some broad notes written on the back of an envelope so that I gotta take my eyes off the road obviously. And I, um, went to get a coffee and here's where customer service broke down. I don't think the lady who's served me, lemme just get past that car I was trying to pull in.   I don't think the lady who served me could tell you now who I was. I don't think she really made eye contact. Um, the guy that actually made my coffee lovely. I mean, just served it. He made it with passion. It's got a love heart on the top. Um, maybe he's telling me something, I dunno. Uh, gave it me with a huge smile and told me to have a nice day.   She barely looked at me to take my money. Now I don't think that's her fault when I actually watched, 'cause I love watching customer service and figuring out why things work or they don't work. She had a Bluetooth headset on and at the same time she was serving on the till, she was taking orders from the drive through.   Now I defy anybody to do those two jobs at once and do them both effectively. Dear Starbucks, you've ruined it because you've cut your costs so low that the customer service bit the element, that is the only element that can set you apart.   Your coffee's not that great. Your cakes are not so great. And go somewhere else. There has to be about the atmospherics. It has to be about customer service, a smile or two, the way they deal with people. That's what makes any customer service based organization stand out because you can get coffee anywhere, you can get cake anywhere.   You can get a seat in most places. I want somewhere that was clean, had some atmosphere. As much as a Starbucks ever has atmosphere, I accept that. Um, and if I'm gonna pay, you know, what is it, six quid, I think it was my coffee, then I'd really quite like it delivered with a smile. And the guy, the barista did, but the customer service, the person on the tilt did it.   And I think it's because she was trying to do two jobs at once. And that's not something that you can do, I don't think to the best of your ability, um, when you've got one voice in your ear and another voice over the front of the counter. However, that's the end of my rant about customer service because I've had two of the three.   I've been standout. One single person company just cuts hair, but she's so much more than that. She always has a smile, always has something to chat about. After 18 years or 19 years or whatever it is, we still don't run outta conversation. We still laugh about life, kids, business, you name it. And then going to Michelle, Michel, Michel, I, I've gotta work out how to pronounce it 'cause it's Michelle without an e.   Um, Michel Engineering. And honestly, I have skipped outta there with the biggest smile. And then to be somewhat deflated. Why is that the right word? It's not deflated. Somewhat energized by some, fairly average at best customer service from Starbucks. It brings the other two into sharp relief, shows you what can be done, how good customer service can be.   And it's nothing more, in my opinion, at least in this country, about being friendly, taking time and making someone feel valued. And as photographers. That's a really important message, though. It's not what this podcast is really about.    AI and the Future of Photography   This podcast was meant to be about and is about to be about ai artificial intelligence.   Yeah. I can hear a few of you blowing your cheeks out and do I need to worry about this or, oh God, it's just awful. All of these. Things. But let me kind of try and put it into context, and I'm gonna start with what I believe is going to be the headline for all of us as an industry. Now, I'm a portrait photographer, as are many of you not a landscaper.   I'm not a fine artist. I have my moments. I'm a portrait photographer. If I'm shooting weddings, I'm still a portrait photographer. I'm just shooting your wedding guest's fine art, as sorry as beautiful portraits. AI is coming now. AI in itself is not gonna take our jobs. However, another photographer who's using AI is going to take our job.   I don't think there's any doubt about that. AI's not gonna take your job. A photographer with AI is gonna take your job. Now, this week's been an interesting. Weak. I keep an eye on the headlines and I'll come to, to that in a little bit about how I'm thinking of creating some resources to help all of us.   But the headlines this week, there have been two that caught my eye, both within a couple of days of each other. The first, and one I hope you've all seen is that Vogue published an ad for guests who I, I Fashion house, I guess retail. Dunno. I actually, I, I, I don't know. I should know, but I don't. But they published an advert for Guess.   That was fully generated by ai. No model involved. It's a beautiful image, no question about it. And the model in it is beautiful. So beautiful in fact, that supermodels have come out and said her look is unattainable. It sets the standard that no one can achieve. Now I think there's a little bit of irony here, just a small amount, um, when supermodels are saying that, look, if someone is unachievable, something is awry.   Now this is a, obviously, I mean, that's a complaint that's been land lauded around the fashion industry for as long as I can remember. And in some weird way, maybe just maybe having unattainable synthetic models is maybe healthier than having unattainable. Actual human models because in the end you can always say, well, there's no way I could look like that.   In fact, there's no way that anyone could look like that 'cause it isn't real. So there's an interesting spin on it, I suspect. Guess the company obviously have had some really good publicity out of it, or at least they've had publicity outta it. Um, but of it highlights where we are headed. The little agency that created it, they're a five person team.   They charge anywhere between. Five and low six figures for creating one of these ads. So there's still money in it, but not money for photographers, money for models, money for location scouts. In fact, there's no money for anyone at all except for the agency, possibly the clothed designers. But I'm gonna guess that AI is eating into their world.   Two, that's not my world, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't given. It's eating into everything. The second article I read, which I, in some ways is slightly more alarming, is that Tata or Tarter huge, a huge multinational company in India. In their IT division, they're laying off 12,000 coders and middle managers 12.   Thousand 2% of their workforce because the focus is all on AI doing those jobs. 12,000. There are commentary and opinion pieces around talking about how that will rip out the heart of Mumba. Middle class wealth. That's how, that's how impactful this is. Real estate companies are saying that the market has dropped retail luxury items.   The middle class is being torn apart because those were middle class jobs for people who were smart, gone 12,000 jobs, 2%. And this is just the beginning. By the way. As fast as AI develops, people will find ways of either and or cutting costs and increasing productivity for the same or lower manpower.   That's where we're headed. Um, there doesn't appear to be any graduate jobs around at the moment, if I've read the headlines correctly, because companies, and this is the right strategy, by the way, are waiting to see quite what's gonna happen with ai. Would you take someone on who under employment law is difficult to get rid of if you are thinking well?   I wonder whether AI is gonna add productivity in a way that people might not. So AI is absolutely here and it's getting better. I think. GPT five, we've been talking about chat GT four, forever Chat. GPT five I think is due out in August. So we are right on top of that. If you're listening to this layer in the ear, it's already here.   And I can only imagine having used Chatt PT four extensively, how good five is going to be. So it's upon us and it's gonna be increasingly necessary if we wanna survive that. We don't just accept ai, we embrace it, we find out how to use it, we compete with it, not against it, 'cause you can't beat it. I've got no intention of going anywhere.   We are gonna use AI in any way and shape and form I can to do everything we do better. I don't have a focus on reducing my team. I love my team, I love being part of a team. But AI allows us to do some things and will increasingly allow us to do some things that either was specific to my time, that now can be distributed around the team, or allow me to do things faster so I can do more of it.   How many podcasts have I started by saying I'm snowed under? I'm so busy, I just don't have the time to do everything I need to do. AI is an enabler in that regard. So for instance, the other day I wrote an article for Professional Photo Magazine. I love writing. I really enjoy writing. There's value in writing.   I love, I loved more when professional photo was in print. But it's not anymore. Um, but I still write for it. It's online. You can read the latest article and we use ai and everyone's like, oh, you're using AI to generate your article. No, I'm not. I sat and wrote it like I always do because it was my story, my experience.   I was there. But what I did was I hopped onto chat, DBT, and in this instance I used O three, not. Chatt PT four oh, um oh three. They have different models and I'll talk a little bit about that in a minute. So I used O three and put in my finished article and said, can you help me subedit this?   So for those of you who worked in print and media, you'll know a subedit. The journalist will submit the article, it goes to the subeditor who'll do the final cut. And then it goes to the editor for once over, uh, maybe a review or two before it goes out into the publication. It's a subedit is a role subeditor.   So I said to, uh, chat GPT-3. Oh no, hang on oh three. Get it the right way round. Help me subedit. And it was brilliant. It helped me work out the threads of the jokes if they're, as much as they're jokes, so much as just light humor. Um, it helped me, uh, reduce repetition. It helped me get the tone of it about right for, um, a readership.   I explained to the readership was likely to be. It did all of those things. Um, and it just gave me ideas and said, maybe you want to just shorten this paragraph length in that one. You've mentioned this at the beginning. You might wanna close it out at the end. Those kinds of things. And then he said, and then he did a second review that said, that looks about perfect.   But you have said you love this. Three times, and maybe you wanna just turn that down a bit. Brilliant. It did something that would've taken me hours to do, just going over and over and over refining it because I don't have a subeditor. Um, I'm assuming professional photo. The website probably does, but whenever possible, I like what I deliver to be finished so that, um, it goes out and goes onto the website, their website as I intended it to, as much as that's possible.   And I love that it does things that make my life faster and more efficient and actually pro increase the quality that I can produce. Of course, the obvious stuff for photographers is on the retouching side. Voto, I've banged on about Voto forever. They're now increasingly more competitors to that. But in my opinion, Voto is still, EVOTO.AI is still the best.   Um, imagine ai, A-M-A-G-E n.ai is brilliant for coloring, for instance, it learns your colors and delivers 'em every time. Um, AI sharpening is really useful where you've got soft images, oh, the list goes on where we can now do things using AI that make my life, it makes it possible for me as a single camera.   I'm the only editor in the, in the studio, only post producer in our studio. So it allows me to do things to a standard I couldn't do without ai. Now, on top of that, we are starting to explore other avenues for ai agent ai. Which you can use to do things like, what did I see the other day? A brilliant article from someone with A DHD who uses ai.   And this is a very simplistic view of what they do, but this is quite clever for those of us who have a DHD tendencies. Um, you will know as I do that there are days when I can be super productive. I mean, do the work of 10, and then there'll be nine days where I do the work of none. It evens itself out, I grant you, but knowing your own mood and knowing what tasks suit that mood would be a really useful skill.   And so what this article said was how this guy had developed an agentic ai. So Agen AI is where you use AI to control ai. So it's a multi-layered ai. Approach and every morning one of many things he does, and this is just a small component of it, but I thought it was kind of cute, is he describes his mood.   And if you've listened to the podcast with Helen May, I think I did a few years ago, she talks about this. She talked about knowing what mood she was in, and she talked about knowing what mood she needed to be in. 'cause she talked about when she would take the drugs and when she wouldn't. And there were days when she had to be productive.   And days where it didn't matter. So if you can identify whether today's gonna be productive or not, you can. This guy had programmed the system to do this.    AI as a Productivity Tool   He would tell the ai, I'm in a productive mood. I'm not in a productive mood. The AI agent would then go off. And talk to other AI agents about all the tasks that were in this guy's world that needed doing and deliver back tasks that suited the mood the guy was in.   So it's sort of like having a very intelligent team member alongside you, who knows your mood, knows what you've gotta do, figures out how to distribute that. This is just a tiny example of how AI can be super helpful, and I think that's how we have to view it. We have to view it as a tool for helping us do our job better.   A tool for helping us compete with other people who are using these tools. Now we're all gonna keep coming back to that theme because if they're using the tools, we need to use the tools. Now we are using all sorts of AI in the business now to do all sorts of tasks.    Exploring AI Software: Xci   Incidentally, actually, while I'm at it, there's a great bit of software I found called Xci, E-X-C-I-R-E.   I've no idea if I've mentioned it before. It's worth a look. It's a bit like. ACDSee, which I love too. But it has an AI component in it where you can do a search saying, find me all the images similar to this one, but it uses AI to do it and it's pretty good, which is really useful when you are building, if you're doing, uh, a themed post on, let's say you're like, we are, I'm doing a thing on siblings, I can say, I can get a picture of two siblings and say, find me a load of pictures like this one, and it'll find all the pictures with two people in it.   They probably won't figure out that they're siblings, but at least you're halfway there. X-I-E-X-C-I-R-E. It's got a, there's a trial on a website. Um, it's not cheap, but it's a one off license. When see decided, I think it's about $250, something like that. So AI is very much here and now and it's not gonna be long before.   It's a whole different world.    AI in Portrait Photography   So one of the ideas I have, and I'd love to hear. From you, if you think this would be useful, I think I'm gonna do it and just test it anyway, is I'm gonna set up a section on mastering portrait photography that just has short articles on ways to use ai. Little things we've found that techniques prompt engineering.   Um, we can talk about what we are doing, um, because I'm doing it, we're doing a load of stuff behind the scenes. If you thought it's going a little bit quiet on MPP, just for a moment. That's why, because I'm trying to figure out how to really harness the tools that are here today and the tools that are coming tomorrow.   Now, of course, you know, I accept, I do accept, as a slight caveat, my PhD is in ai, so there is a fascination with what's going on in this sector that many of you probably or possibly don't have. And I, I do accept that. Of course, I accept that. My, my, my fascination with where the tools and techniques that we were part of decades of developing are now here.   And, and this is, you know, by the way, this is why I say that it, you know, we have a toddler, I've said this a lot, we have a toddler of an AI world right now, and it's growing up is because 30 years ago we were saying the same thing. Then, you know, imagine what the scientists are gonna do in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years.   Imagine that now what scientists are gonna do in the next 10 or 20 or 30 years. So yes, I accept, I have an enthusiasm and an excitement about AI that maybe you don't share. But equally, there's lots of little things you can do, like product engineering, like setting up memories if you use chat, GPT, like setting up product knowledge.   If you use Claude, like understanding how things like Gemini. Vo flow. These create more creative tools from Google, possibly can help you in your everyday work. These are all so useful and so right here, a, a, a great example.    Using AI for Workshop Transcripts   Now, when I run a workshop or a one-to-one or I do mentoring is I'm aware of this same microphone that I'm recording now.   One of the roads, whatever they're called, uh, something or others. Um, I just record it and record all the audio of my voice when I'm running a workshop. That's all it needs. Just what did we talk about from my point of view? Ideally everyone would have microphones on, but it gets really quite complicated really quite quickly.   So for now, it's just me with a mic. I take that audio. Let's say there's 10 hours of audio from a day. I take that audio and I put it into Da Vinci. Why Da Vinci? Because actually the AI tools won't deal with a very long audio file yet. They're just not there yet, but. And I could put it into Descrip, which I use for the podcast, but you pay quite a lot of money for a 30 hour per month transcript.   And taking 10 hours of that just to do each workshop. And I do a couple of workshops a month is not ideal. It goes into DaVinci, which has a subtitle generator. So it takes an hour to go through 10 hours of foot of video, of audio, sorry. And it creates a transcript, subtitles, I take the subtitles and I put those into usually chat, TP, T oh three or four oh, and I can then interrogate the transcript and do different things.   So, great example, uh, chat, DPT. I enter something like, uh, this is a workshop I ran with five delegates and me, the voice you will read is mine. These are my words.   Teaching a subject title to them. Whatever the workshop is. Let's say it's mastering studio lighting, I dunno. So these are all the things I talked about in response to questions or self deduced. I want you to give me useful information that. I can send back to the delegates that are the key bullet points and details that they might find useful.   And then at the end of that prompt, I put the following, ask me whatever you need to be 95% certain of delivering this task to the best of your ability, or something along those lines. It will then ask me a series of questions. It'll say things like, what was the purpose of the workshop? What did you think delegates have done?   Again, out of it, were there any questions that delegates asked to you before the workshop that are not answered here, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You answer those and then it will feed you useful information. It will obviously, and here's a really interesting difference. I love chat. GT 4.0, all four one.   They're great. It will say things, if you put this into chat GPT 4.0, it will say, oh, Paul, oh Paul. That was not just a workshop. You did not just educate them, you inspired them. You are incredible. Oh, I love your work. Here's some ideas. Oh my God, they're gonna find so useful. Here's ba blah, ba ba, and they give you a load of things to send back.   And it will say at the end. And if you ask it, if you're very smart, what you actually do is you also ask it, how could I improve the workshop? And it will say, I don't think there's much you could change, but here's some ideas. And these might just help you deliver more, uh, I dunno, more, more clarity or more information or help the help certain types of, uh, delegate understand more.   It's really useful as a coach for me too. If you do the same exercise with O three, which is a reasoning engine, it works slightly differently. It's not just about language. It's now reasoning. It might say, well, you did these points, here's some useful information. Here's some ways you could do it better.   It's like having a very blunt, best friend with no filter. It's a lot more useful in so many ways. But nowhere near as much fun as camp GPT. Oh, Paul, you're amazing. I love it. I'd dread them taking that side away. Uh, Claude is even, by the way, if you use c Claude ai, it's even more, I sometimes wonder whether it's, it's in the name Claude.   It, it feels like it might be quite rude. It just tells you, these are the things you didn't do very well. You should do this better. Okay.    AI Tools for Photographers   Anyway, point being, we're using AI to gather more value outta what we're already doing. We're not trying to make things. Um, streamline things or make things, uh, it's not a race to the bottom.   If anything, it's a race to the top. So we're using AI throughout. Uh, so I'm gonna set up a section of MPP that's all about ai, little tips and tricks, information I'm reading about engines, AI engines, et gentech ai. Things like zapier make.com, if this, then that where they've now got AI baked into them. So you can do clever things if you have, you know, just a spreadsheet, for instance, you can tell, um, things like make.com without ai.   If you are good at code, you can tell it what you want it to do in terms of maybe posting stuff. Um, if you are good at coding, that's great. If you're not good at coding, you can use AI to help you with the coding. It's not brilliant, but it's not bad. And you can get prototypes up and on their feet really quite rapidly.   You can get it to give you layouts of websites, just ideas. You can get it to design logos, just ideas. Now, yes or right, if you make your living on five or designing logos, maybe that's not a great thing to do. But actually when you boil it down as photographers, how many of us actually use Fiverr more than once or twice?   I've used it a couple of times in the entire time, and frankly, I've been disappointed. Might be strong a word, but certainly not thrilled with what I got back. Whereas with ai, yeah, all right. I might not be thrilled with the first one or the second one or the third one, but eventually I'll get there by tuning the prompt and getting it to refine what it's doing.   Um, I dunno if anyone else has done this. You say please and thank you. Um, I do, and then I feel guilty if I need to correct it, but you do need to correct it. And I'll, I'll publish some articles on these, all these little bits on a section of MPP to try and make it, uh, to try and it's, it is now so much a part of a portrait photographer's life.   That not having a section on it feels kind of weird. Um, and so look out for that in the coming weeks as I figure out quite how to, uh, get that information on there, uh, quickly enough and without it distracting from the things I'm already finding difficult to find time for. So that was my little thing of ai.   And if there's a footnote here, of course, it's, uh, from Michelle this morning, the record deck, my turntable, um, Steven and I were chatting and we got chatting a little bit about ai and he said, oh my God, we use it a lot. And introduced me to James, who is. His son-in-law, I think he said, and I had the opportunity.   We went back in, actually, we'd been sit, stood on the doorstep for an hour chatting. I went back in at Stevens behest to go and talk to James. Actually, it was to show me C3 PO's eye and then go talk to James. So I went to talk to James about how they're using ai and I won't. I, I, I, he never said there's anything confidential about it, but I'm gonna treat that with confidentiality.   But it was really intriguing what they're doing with ai because some of what they're doing, I didn't know. It was possible. So I'm gonna take that information now and have a look at how you can use things in a way that I was unaware was yet possible. It feels like certain areas are already possible ahead of what I was aware of.   Um, well, that's it. Let me retract that. That's stupid. Of course, there's a ton of stuff that's possible that I'm unaware of. Um, I meant more mainstream, just simple stuff. Just ideas of how to use things. Absolutely brilliant. And that's where we are. AI is not gonna take your job, but another photographer using it.   Well, that's a whole different discussion. Uh, I hope this recording's working all right. I hope it's not too noisy. Um, I'm now stuck in a 20 mile an hour queue behind a lorry because they've, uh, resurfaced the road. So there's a, uh, grip kind of, you know, a grip warnings everywhere for stuff flying up. So we're all traveling nice and slowly.   Skid risk gets in. I'm not gonna ski anywhere. Um, so what else do I just want to mention? Uh, right.    Mentoring and Workshops   We have workshops running. Uh, we learned our lesson by the way, uh, everybody said that. Uh, yes. Workshops on a Friday. Great. So we asked you workshops on a Friday. Great. Um, and then we put workshops on a Friday.   Much harder. Thank you for that one. Uh, all of our workshops are moving back to Mondays, which in the end when we spoke to everybody yeah, everyone said, everyone who said, yeah, Fridays are fine. When we went back to Mondays he says, oh great, it's back to Mondays. That's much better. So Mondays, the workshops are back on Mondays as a whole series.   I can't remember 'cause I'm driving what they are. Uh, but please do head over to mastering portrait photography.com and find the section on workshops and, uh, they're all listed. We'd love to see you. Uh, we are doing a lot of one-on-one mentoring now, which is lovely. Some of my favorite things. To do is to actually spend time sitting and well, I mean, I have to hope we impart some knowledge, but there are days when I think I'm just enjoying spending time with photographers, um, and discussing, uh, their work.   So if you fancy that details, give us an email, drop us an email and find out what we offer because we do, uh, what else was, I'll just finish judging. Uh, or I've got one. I've done my first cut of judging. So the way I like to judge is to do everything. And by the way, the deadline is Wednesday, Thursday. Um, and you might think it's a little bit last minute.   It's last minute because my monitor blew up. Um, I've had this Ben Q monitor for years, a decade, and it decided to pack up. Um, my eye mark. The colors I've known for a while, the colors are wandering and no amount of, um, calibrating. And I always calibrate. No amount of calibrating is gonna fix that because it's got magenta areas turning up.   On the corners, the middle's all right, but the rest is awful. So there's not a lot I can do about that. So I had to buy, I had to shell out for a new Ben Q 4K photographer's monitor. It is stunning. Oh my God, it is so nice. It's all calibrated Spider Pro. Um, it turns out that Ben Q's own calibration software does an unbelievable job of calibrating itself with a, with a spider pro that I've got.   Um, so the colors that are absolutely gorgeous, they look well, I say gorgeous, they're accurate, which actually is not necessarily the same. Thing. Um, but of course you can't judge a competition until your monitor's calibrated. So I spent many hours yesterday judging now the monitor's in and on. Uh, it's such a privilege to do what I do.   Um, mentoring, judging, coaching, you name it. You know, when I started this business or I started out as a photographer two years ago, I never, well, and I nearly said I never dreamt. I did dream of doing the things I now do, and here I am doing it. And it's no less of a dream now that I'm doing it, uh, than it was back then when I imagined doing it.   It's brilliant. It's one of my favorite things to do. Uh, so yeah, I was judging. Week. I can't remember how I got into this. I, I've lost. Oh, mentoring. I'm talking about mentoring and coaching. What a privilege and a pleasure. So if you fancy bit of that, uh, we do offer it now. Uh, one of the reasons I stood down after three years of being the chair of judging in awards for the BIPP was to give me a little bit of bandwidth and the political space to do more coaching and mentoring because you obviously, it's difficult to mentor if you are the chair of the association that now assesses the people you are mentoring.   That's a little bit of a conflict of interest. So I never did any mentoring, uh, while I was chair with, see I do now. Uh, what else?    Mastering Portrait Photography Book   Oh yeah, his news. Most of you may have heard this 'cause we've had various social posts out about it. The book, mastering portrait Photography, the book, which is where it all kind of started 10 years ago.   10 years it's been out, it has sold 50,000 copies. It has been translated from English into American English. Do you know what? There's a complaint on Amazon. One of the very first reviews, it gave it four stars. They knocked a star off because we used American spellings. I mean, you do have to ask yourself, I'm sorry.   It was never published in British English. It went straight to American English because do you know it's a bigger market? I'm sure the publisher knew exactly what they were doing. Um, and so they only published it in American English, so apologies to the British English fanatics. It's in American English this time as well.   So it's been translated from American English into, uh, Italian twice. There's a normal copy and what's called a kiosk copy. They were both done by National Geographic. It's been translated into German. It's been translated into Chinese, and it's been translated into Korean. Now. Those last two we knew nothing about.   It's only when we were doing the audit a couple of weeks ago that Sarah drilled into it. And found them. We actually have a picture of the Chinese copy 'cause we have some Chinese clients who very kindly sent us some pictures, um, from, uh, Hong Kong. Uh, if I, if anybody's listening to this from Korea, I don't know if there is, but if any of my clients have Korean contacts or Korean family, or are Korean, is there any chance you could send us a picture of a book cover of our book cover Mastering Portrait Photography by Paul Wilkinson and Sarah Platon in Korean.   Um, that would be super valuable. Uh, at some point I try and get a copy of it, but even our publisher doesn't have copies. It must have been done locally under license, but it's out there. 50,000 copies translated into four languages and a decade later we were asked to produce an updated edition. Um, you will know this 'cause I've talked about doing the process.   It is done. I have one copy sitting in the studio, one copy of mastering portrait photography, the updated edition, and I have changed every single picture except one. There's one picture in there that's exactly the same as it was 10 years ago. Uh, we may yet run a little competition to see if you can spot it.   It will be on sale or it's already on sale. Pre-ordering. It will be on sale I think on the 14th of September. The original date was the 9th of September, but it's been pushed back a little bit by the publisher to allow distribution. We should get copies in the studio. We'll order a couple of hundred to be able to do signed copies and get them out to anybody.   Um, we're holding a launch event, um, for anybody who's in the book. Anybody involved in the book sometime in, uh, October. We will let, we'll give you details about that once we've got them finalized. Um, right. Hang on a minute. I'm gonna take a back road 'cause this road's been really noisy, so I'm gonna go cut through the back roads, which are quieter.   Uh, and, um, it's, it's out and about for pre-orders. Yeah, I do apologize again if this, if this podcast is a little bit noisy, I do apologize. But like I said, it's a podcast on the Land Rover, uh, right. Roundabouts. Hang on, let me just concentrate on traffic. It was good. Okay. Um, however, I want to just, I will try and get this podcast, Eric, today, which is Tuesday, the 29th of July, 2025.   Um, why? Well, because Waterstones in the UK have an offer on the book. They have an offer 25% off pre-orders. It's being promoted by Waterstones. Um, I'll put the link in the show notes, but if you Google mastering portrait photography, summer offer Waterstones, you'll find it, um, if you pre-order it, uh, before the 31st of July.   The offer only started yesterday. Um. Then you get 25% off the, on the offer. I promised the publisher we would promote it. So that's, um, out in September and I am beyond excited about it. Um, I talk about this quite a lot and, and I think we'll update mastering portrait photography with the stories behind some of these images.   But every one of the images is in some form a client, a friend, someone we met, someone who stood in to do a photo shoot, you know, people like Barbara and say Hi, working on Crystal Cruz's, just the most amazing people who stepped in to allow me to demonstrate certain techniques. Our normal clients, our son Jake, and our daughter Harriet, who are both in there with their permission.   But broadly speaking, it's our clients. It's the people who we photographed along the way. There's so many in there. I can tell you a story about every single image, every single moment, every single client, and on the back cover. So the front cover is Dory, who we met. She was serving US food in a really lovely Thai restaurant in the Crazy Bear.   And I asked her, I met her and with, I mean I was with Sarah and um, we were chatting and I said to Sarah, I think she'd photograph really well. And Sarah bless her because you don't have to do this when there's just a couple of you having a nice romantic meal and you start talking about whether someone would photograph well, there's every opportunity, uh, for that to go wrong.   But Sarah is the most incredible human being, and she too realized that Dory would photograph well. And so I asked her, I said, with Sarah said, go and ask us. I asked her and I said, would you be photographed? Would you be willing to come and be photographed? I think you'd photographed beautifully. And she said, no.   She looked at me, shook her head, said No. Walked away. Now, luckily we weren't on the final course, so she had to come back and I wrote on a paper napkin. I wrote, uh, my web address, my email and said, look, go and have a look. Um, I dunno why I thought, I have no idea. I just assumed, I dunno, I'd call it arrogance.   I thought, well, if you see my pictures, you'll want to be photographed by me, people in a rare moment of super confidence. Um, so anyway, I gave her that and she walked. And last night I thought, we'll never hear from her. At four o'clock that morning, the next following morning, there was an email came in that said, yes, please, I've looked at your website.   I would love to have my photograph taken. And that has started a friendship that goes on today. Uh, Dory is still this most incredible person to photograph. She is lovely. She is funny. Um, she is, well photogenic, doesn't really begin to describe it. She has the most beautiful daughter, the most incredible husband.   Um, she now has done some modeling off the back of it, and it's her picture from that from.  First session that we filmed actually for mastering portrait photography. We filmed it specifically to go with the website to support some of the ideas in the first edition of the book way back. And it's her face on the cover. One of our first, one of the first times I approached someone to model, and on the back cover is Jess.   Now, I first met Jess a few years ago, age 12, and she came to the tame food for. Where we had a, you know, popup stand selling vouchers and our wares, and she approached us and said, how much would it be to do some portraits, some photographs of me doing contortion, contortion, contortion being a contortionist, and she's 12 years old.   And what am I gonna say to a 12-year-old who is gutsy and asking about being photographed? She was there with her mom. You know, this is no. Our conversation that I would have with a 12-year-old obviously. So I had the conversation with her and our mom and I said, well, look, one of the things we do a lot of is we create videos and we run workshops and mentoring.   And I'm always looking for people that we can point in front of the camera who are interesting, have ideas, um, we can create really beautiful pictures off the back of, um, so why don't I trade you some time? So if you come. To the studio and I'll do some pictures for you as a client as long as you come back as a model and let us just take whatever pictures my delegates need and we're always looking out for models like this.   Um, and she said, yes, she agreed. I said that way, I don't need to charge you, but I get something in return that is really valuable to me too. So she came for the first contortionist. Photo shoot. She's a gymnast and a contortionist and a dancer. And um, over the years we've continued to work with her. She has now got a modeling contract.   We now help her with that too. I was writing my instincts that she would photograph well. Um, more importantly, she came to a workshop, I think. I'm sitting in the Lounge Rover. If I sit in my microphones in the studio, I'll tell you exactly the title of the workshop. I think it was Advanced Studio Lighting, or it might have been a avail, it might have been mixed.   I, I think it was Advanced Studio Lighting. And towards the end of the workshop, a couple of the photographers, we'd done a lot of freezing movement. Hang on, let me just let this guy out. We've done a lot of freezing movement. 'cause of course, you know, one of rom's brilliant features. Um, is that you can read on the back of the lights.   The pulse width, so that how the duration of the photo of the light pulse on the strobes. And so if you're freezing motion, as long as your pulse width is, is you know, ideally three thousandths of a second, but a couple of thousandths of a second or faster, you'll on the whole freeze motion. So we'd done that all day and a couple of the guys said, can we do something capturing movement?   Now, if you. Saw the work I did at the Society's convention this year. You'll see this kind of technique in action, and what we did is we lit her with two light sources. We lit her with LED, quite a lot of LED actually, and slowed the shutter down so that we could capture that movement in light. And then we fired a fast pulse at her face and her hands to freeze that bit.   And then we practiced some, uh. Um, sort of dance moves really of her flinging a dress around a ball gown and caught a couple of images that do both. They both strobe, they both freeze her hand, capture her movement, and when you get that stuff right, there's something really magical about it and we got it right.   At least I say you get it right, if that's, did I get it perfectly? No, of course there are things I'd change. There's always some. Thing you'd change? No, no image is perfect. But I think we did pretty well and I would happily do it all over again. Well, that picture's on the back cover, and we didn't know this.   We knew about the front cover because we'd sent over probably 50 or 60 full face portraits for the designers of the book to pick, and they pick Dory, which fills my heart with joy and on the back cover unknown to us 'cause we never saw it in advance. They've put Jess, who you know, was a 12-year-old gymnast and contortionist who had the guts to ask how much would it be to come and have a photo shoot.   And so I'm thrilled for both of those people, both clients that, you know, for the next 10 years we'll be talking about the book with them on the front and them on the back. Uh, it's out there, it's on Amazon, or you can wait. Until we get our copies and we'll send out signed and mounted copies. Um, sorry, signed and signed copies not signed and mounted.   You get into a rhythm with these things don't you? Signed and mounted prints obviously, but signed copies of the book. Um, we'll put that onto, uh, our website in the coming weeks once we know when we are getting our stock of them. Uh, apparently the print run is now done. It's now all about warehousing and distribution, logging, all of those kinds of things.   So that's coming out in September. Waterstone's, just a reminder, they have a 25% offer right now that if you pre-order it, uh, on their website, you get 25, uh, percent off. And I'm selling it for full price, which is 20 quid. Alright. Just so you know, uh, I'm gonna sign it. Um, send it out. But it will, um, it will be the full price.   Uh. Uh, no discounts. You can get it from, if you want it cheap, go to Amazon If you want it signed, come to me. Oh man. I've brought us round a back route. Oh, that pub's open again. Wow, that's good. That pub closed. It's reopened. Um, and on that happy note, as Irun my way back through bucking shirt, Buckingham, she's back lanes.   I was laughing with someone the other day, just how beautiful this bit of the world is. You forget because it's familiar. You forget it's your doorstep. You. I've traveled across the world to go to places that don't look that dissimilar to where I live and sat in admiration of these locations when it, you know, sometimes it's not a bad idea to sit and admire my own back door.   It's absolutely beautiful out here. Um, though the roads are in need of a little bit of repair.   Conclusion and Final Thoughts   So on that happy note, please do head over to mastering portrait photography.com, uh, which has, as ever, tons of articles and is the spiritual home of this podcast. If you've enjoyed the podcast, uh, please do subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcast. It's on iTunes, it's on Spotify, it's on YouTube, uh, wherever it is.   Please do subscribe if you have any questions. Uh, who knows? Maybe you do. Uh, please do email Paul at paulwilkinsonphotography.co.uk co uk. Uh, people do email in now. I think. Uh, I'm trying to remember the name. I saw the email come in. I think it's John. I think John, thank you for your email, John, uh, who wanted to know about the type of paint we use in the studio.   'cause I've spent ages trying to get it right. Got it. Right. This. Time, uh, got it right on two counts. I can't remember what it is. By the way, if you wait, if you're hanging on waiting to find out what it is, um, I can't remember what it is. Uh, Sarah emailed, uh, this morning the answer. I've got a top of it sitting in the studio.   Uh, a white paint for the wall that is broadly speaking, the same white as a white calibration chart. It's also super tough and super white clean, which is great for any of the posing boxes we have because we've forever putting coffee on them and leaving coffee stay. Well now it cleans off. It doesn't stain the paint.   It's absolutely brilliant. Uh, the point of the story is somebody emailed in and asked me if you have any questions, please do so. Uh, so until next time, whatever you're up to, wherever you are, and I hope. The view as you drive along is just as stunning as this is. I've turned the corner. It's just wheat field after  📍 wheat field and hedges and hills.   It's like a postcard. Oh my goodness. It's lovely. I hope like me, you're enjoying where you live and until next time, whatever else, be kind to yourself. Take care.

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• EP164 Inside Graphistudio: Heirlooms, AI, And The Future Of Photography — With Mauricio Arias

  Join me in the foothills of the Dolomites for a warm, funny, and surprisingly philosophical conversation with Mauricio Arias — Graphistudio’s strategist, storyteller, and, as I’ve dubbed him, their “Product Philosopher.” We dig deep into why printed work still matters in a digital world, how to make your images sing in print (and what that print will brutally reveal), and what photographers need to believe if they want clients to invest in heirlooms, not hard drives. There’s laughter, there’s wine (not during the recording, I promise), and there’s a lot of heart. This one’s for anyone who’s ever asked: does my work really need to exist on paper? (Spoiler: yes. Yes it does.) Links: Graphistudio: graphistudio.com Mauricio Arias: mauricioarias.art   What Graphistudio Can Teach Us About Craft, Confidence, And Creating Heirlooms Featuring Mauricio Arias – from Episode 165 of the Mastering Portrait Photography Podcast This summer, I found myself at the foot of the Dolomites, tucked inside a sun-drenched meeting room at Graphistudio HQ, chatting with the wonderfully philosophical Mauricio Arias. He’s part strategist, part designer, part storyteller—now officially dubbed (by me) the Product Philosopher of Graphistudio. We’ve used Graphistudio products for over 15 years. Our clients love their albums and wall art. We love their consistency, their craftsmanship, and their beautifully obsessive attention to detail. So when Mauricio and I sat down for a conversation, I had one question in mind: Why does print still matter in a digital world? Mauricio’s answer was simple and heartfelt: because photographs are meant to be held. He spoke about growing up with albums on the coffee table and family portraits on the wall—how physical images root our memories in something real. But what stuck with me most was this: "Printing reveals both the beauty and the flaws." A great print will elevate your best work, but it also exposes any cracks in your post-production. It’s humbling. And it’s powerful motivation to keep improving. We talked about calibration (yes, you need it), about photography as an emotional craft, and about the importance of believing in what you offer. Because if you don’t believe your work belongs in an album or on a wall, how will your clients ever believe it? We also touched on the future—on AI, on trust, and on the rising value of human, handmade, tangible things. Heirloom prints are becoming more important, not less. 🎧 Listen to the Full Conversation Listen to this episode to hear the full interview with Mauricio Arias. There’s laughter, insight, and plenty of inspiration—especially if you’re in the business of turning moments into memories. 📬 Want More Like This? Subscribe to Mastering Portrait Photography for access to videos, articles, and behind-the-scenes tips to grow your photography business. Whether you're just starting or refining your craft, there's something for everyone. Explore Membership Written by Paul Wilkinson · Photographer, Educator, and Portrait Philosopher-in-Chief

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