The Two-Way Poetry Podcast

In this episode, I talk to Steve Ely about Geoffrey Hill’s collection Mercian Hymns and a number of poems from his sequence ‘The Battle of Brunanburh’ and the poem ‘Filth as thou art’ from his most recent collection Eely. Steve talks about the importance of Hill's work as an 'outlier' poet in the Modernist tradition. He focuses on the form that Mercian Hymns takes - the 'versets' that he himself adopted in his first published book Englaland. He examines three poems in depth - the first and third pieces (that set the tone of the work), and the penultimate poem in the sequence.  He draws out various moments when the history of Offa 'bleeds into' the biography of Hill as it is represented in the sequence. Steve digs deep into the word choices that Hill makes, and the allusive qualities of the text. He then discusses at length the historical background to his poem 'The Battle of Brunanburh'. He explores the notion that this battle took place in South Yorkshire - and goes on to talk about the various sources that commented on this pivotal moment in history. He reflects on three poems in particular in the sequence - poems I, II and XII.  He describes how he used Mercian Hymns as a template for his own practice of melding historical timelines together. He discusses notions of class and masculinity through the framework of this historical overview. Finally he focuses on the 'dramatic' design of his latest collection Eely - how the book fits together over the course of nearly two-hundred pages.  He goes on to think about the evolution of 'Filth as thou art', touching on the history of the Fens in doing so.  He explores the trajectory of the work - how one idea or reference leads to another thought or image, culminating in his own manifestation as the 'staggeringly-gifted child' which is a nod back to Hill's representation of himself in Mercian Hymns. He ends the conversation by discussing jeans brands from the 1970s - and in particular the desire of owning a pair Falmers. You can find various printings of Mercian Hymns out there. I first read the sequence in Geoffrey Hill's Collected Poems, published by Penguin Books in 1985. Steve Ely is a poet, novelist, biographer and teacher of creative writing. He has written several books or pamphlets of poetry, most recently Eely (Longbarrow Press, April 2024), Orasaigh (Broken Sleep Books, August 2024) and an edited anthology, Apocalyptic Landscape (Valley Press, October 2024) . He’s currently working on a critical work, Ted Hughes’s Expressionism, a novel entitled The Quoz, and an infinitely expanding, limitless poetic sequence, Terra Incognito. 'The Battle of Brunanburh' can be found in Steve Ely's second book of poetry Englaland (Smokestack Books, 2015). 'Filth as thou art' features in the final section of Steve's book Eely (Longbarrow Press, 2024) - known as Eelysium -  which you can read more about here. You can also follow me on X - @cwjoneschris or on Bluesky - @cwjoneschris.bsky.social for more updates on future episodes.   Here Steve's poem: Filth as thou art The life-or death prerogative power of Ivan Karamazov's Master of Game, wolfhounds loosed at the slipped boys scut, hauled down in the snow and torn in the jaws of his ululating mother;                                              gold-rush garimpeiros, lopping the heads of the Haxi Yanomami, something about a stolen hammock, their cleansing from the commons;                                                                 shish kebab paedos, pimping and raping unlooked-after AirMax scrubbers - panga wielding paki ninnies, watermelon smiles.                                                      Brit White Chief getting out of hand with his tax-payer funded Brit White Bird. Well, asked Ivan. What does he deserve? Boris stopped spaffing and thought for a sec. To be shot, he muttered. But already his mind was somewhere else                                      hunt ball interns, indigenous schoolies on cigs and free dinners, wearing Joop and 9 carat Yanomami lip-plates, the stringbulb flat above Booze n News, choc klet starfish dripping with garlic mayo - we're having a gang bang, we're having a ball, Rita, Sue and PetSu too, Leeds Tiffs with Sav and Jayne MacDonald: inner sense doubtful - at that age, from that estate, at that time in the morning, with the eel fishers baiting their creels in the boatyard, eights sweeping the river from Kulmhof to the Wash, Spinnefix spinning his little white house, the black band of Florian Geyer. Shot in the beams of the Rothermere staff car, which he smashed as he fled, a hole in his head, to the lays of Ness Ziona                                              defacing the fly-leaf Brer Rabbit's a Rascal, 1974: thank God I was born alive, not dead; human, not an animal; a boy, not a girl; English, not foreign; and Yorkshire, South Kirkby, the Wimpeys - RULE OK! - scoring his hat-tricks, wheelying his Chopper, 100% on the test, this Prospero of Osgoldcross, Ariel of Frickley Park: Kirkby rec Caliban, proud as Punch in his catalogue Falmers, boss-eyed, club-footed, man or fish, legged with fins for arms. The meanest, poorest and commonest sort, that serve for the profit of conjurors, and bleed on Dagon's altars.                                                       Beacons ring the changes. Bog-bull thumps the level. Lads rip the pegs on Whelpmore Fen. Commoner's muck.  

In this episode, I talk to Abbi Flint about Elizabeth-Jane Burnett’s poem ‘Little Peach’ and her own poem ‘Cow Low Bowl (650 - 700 AD)’. Abbi talks about the connections between her work as an archaeologist and her creative processes as a poet. She explores the idea of fragments - whether they be finds or fragmentary and non-linear details - as a way in to thinking about associations between her various practices.  She talks about the creative skills that Burnett displays in her fashioning of a poetic voice that can embody other-than-human elements. She then goes on to discuss at length Elizabeth-Jane Burnett’s project that evolved into her collection Twelve Words for Moss, and how ‘Little Peach’ fits into the overall design of the book. Abbi highlights the sensory qualities and playfulness of the language in Burnett’s poem, the wonder. Abbi also mentions Clare Shaw's peat bog poems as a way of understanding Burnett's work too. Abbi then goes on to explore the sound and sense of her own poem ‘Cow Low Bowl’ (650 - 700 AD)'. She draws on her development as a writer, pinpointing the Continuing Bonds project (see below) as a starting point for drawing together archeology and poetry. She then goes on to talk about how she gained creative inspiration from the Thomas Bateman antiquarian collection held at Western Park Museum in Sheffield in another cross-disciplinary project she was involved in. She talks about the layered approach she makes in 'Cow Low Bowl' - bringing together different texts and images to create this work.  She draws on the tactile quality of the bowl as a way into thinking about the object.  She talks about writing into the space that 'we will never know', and the archeological imagination. She goes on to discuss the possibility of a first complete collection of creative work, and what texts might be included in the book. Abbi Flint is a researcher and poet, who works across archaeology, history and the environmental humanities. Her poems have been published in a range of online and print journals, including Under the Radar, Spelt, Atrium, Reliquiae, Popshot Quarterly, The Ekphrastic Review, Ink, Sweat and Tears, and Interpreters House. Abbi mentions two projects, led by Professor Melanie Giles (University of Manchester), that she contributed poems to Vestiges and Peat: Past, Present and Future. The webpage for Vestiges contains a link to a recording of Abbi reading Cow Low Bowl, and a link to the pdf of the full Vestiges anthology. More about the Continuing Bonds project, led by Professor Karina Croucher (University of Bradford), here: https://continuingbonds.live/teaching-materials/ The MossWorlds Project, led by Dr Anke Bernau, Dr Ingrid Hanson and Dr Aurora Fredriksen (University of Manchester), has a website here: https://mossworlds.co.uk/about-mossworlds/ The science poetry/art journal Consilience can be found here: https://www.consilience-journal.com/about Abbi mentions a portrait of Thomas Bateman and his son sitting alongside the Cow Low Bowl. You can find a version of the image here. Elizabeth-Jane Burnett's poem, 'Little Peach', was published in the Willowherb Review and also in her book Twelve Words for Moss. You can hear her read 'Little Peach' here. You can also follow me on X - @cwjoneschris or on Bluesky - @cwjoneschris.bsky.social for more updates on future episodes.   Cowl Low Bowl (650-700 AD) Low bowl, sky bowl dish that ran away with the moon underground, understone puddled mud above thirsty old bones that took the sky to bed in cloth and ash, iron and brass Sure bowl, palm bowl cupped by a hand that tipped sky to cold lips cold as a tod-fox tooth blue as a calm sea, tender as tilted hips that swallowed the moon Whole bowl, restless bowl holds the horizon between soil and where air fell to dust this blue is a window between death and another death brought to light by the spade      

In this episode, I spend time with Dave Swann (on his, and his wife, Ange's allotment) as we reflect on Tony Hoagland's poem 'The Neglected Art of Description' and his own poem 'The Last Day of Summer'. In the podcast, Dave talks about meeting Tony Hoagland at a poetry reading in London.  He discusses how he got over balancing his work life and writing life by going on writing courses. He mentions how, on one of these residencies, he met the poet Mimi Khalvati who introduced him to the idea of schwa vowels, and how this made him view his poetry in a different light. He talks about the importance of description, professional noticing, and daydreaming.  He then goes on to discuss Tony Hoagland's 'plate spinning', the technical 'tight-rope act' he enacts from poem to poem. He talks at length about 'The Neglected Art of Description', how it hovers around those different points of describing detail through 'sleights of hand' and rhetorical flourishes (and Zen Buddhism).  How it can only go so far. He goes on a detour - focusing for a while on the descriptive power of Mark Doty's poem 'Two Ruined Boats'. He then goes on to explore his own poem 'The Last Day of Summer' and the choices of language he made in this piece. What is poetry supposed to do in the world? He talks about sleights of hand in his own poetry, how and why he focuses on the film Paths of Glory, and on the case of a political prisoner (Reyhaneh Jabbari) being executed for her own beliefs. He talks at length about the technical decisions that he makes in the poem.  He explores the idea of being 'bombarded' by news and information, and how as individuals (and writers) we have to negotiate this stream of words in our lives. How do we sift out the words that are important to us? He discusses the importance of poetry in people's lives too. Finally, he explores the different (prose and poetry) collections he is currently writing for publication - including his allotment poems.   Tony Hoagland's poem 'The Neglected Art of Description' can be found in Application for the Release from the Dream (Bloodaxe, 2015).  Dave also reads from 'Two Ruined Boats' from Mark Doty's collection Atlantis (Cape, 1996). Dave also mentions in the podcast Hoagland's book Real Sofistikashun: Essays on Poetry and Craft (Graywolf Press, 2006). David Swann began his writing life as a reporter for the local newspaper in Accrington. After working in nightclubs, warehouses, and magazines in Amsterdam, he became the writer in residence in a prison.  A book based on those experiences, The Privilege of Rain (Waterloo Press, 2009) was shortlisted for The Ted Hughes Award.  Dave's stories and poems have been widely published and won many awards, including eleven successes at the Bridport Prize and two in The National Poetry Competition. His novella Season of Bright Sorrow (also available from Ad Hoc Fiction), won the 2021 Bath Novella-in-Flash Competition. David's own poem, 'The Last Day of Summer', comes from his last published poetry collection, Gratitude on the Coast of Death (Waterloo Press, 2017). You can follow me on X - @cwjoneschris or on Bluesky - @cwjoneschris.bsky.social for more updates on future episodes.   The Last Day of Summer If the clock-radio wasn't chanting its old lament I'd spend the summer's finale under our duvet but the year's last light is falling, and, here, it's all war, famine, Ebola.  And Iran has hanged Reyhaneh Jabbari. There's a better place than this, but I can't find it anywhere in our house, so I carry my tea into the yard and listen while a neighbour's child calls to her vanished cat.  'Gucci!' she cries, on the brink of tears. 'Gucci, where are you, dear?' The mallow's crazy bloom has dimmed now and the sunflowers have lost interest in the sky. I follow their hunched gaze to where indestructible snails lumber like tanks over the paving stones, and think of that moment in Paths of Glory when cockroaches scuttle through a cell.  Tomorrow, when's he dead, those things will continue to live, the condemned man tells his jailers, unable to imagine the world bearing his absence.  Around me: a citadel of living spiders. They have strung their cables over our tiny lawn.  The grass has gone on growing and these cobwebs are thicker than I've known. Global warming? Upstairs, the clock-radio drones while a child's voice rises through its scales. 'Gucci,' she sings.  'Come home now, Gucci!' Our words have travelled vast distances, that's what I tell the kids I teach.  They have come to us on journeys and their bags are full of secrets. Rose, for instance. Or musk. Or path. Or assassin.  These words are from Farsi, words from the land that has hanged Reyhaneh Jabbari.  For two months she was held alone, beyond reach of lawyers and family, and she went to her death still protecting the name of the man who saved her from rape by the government agent. These are not the words of a poem and that is not the name of a cat.  Let me sit here with my tea and forget this winter. Send us down the old books, containing the old worlds. You know the ones: jasmine, shawl, peach.                    

In this episode, I talk to Robert Hamberger about John Clare’s poem 'The Field Mouse’s Nest' and his own poem 'Herb Robert'. In our conversation, Robert talks about how his art teacher introduced to him to the works of Sylvia Plath and John Clare (among others).  He discusses the 'everyday' language he uses in his poetry and how (through this 'political act') he doesn’t want to exclude his readers. He goes on to explore the idea of the sonnet - how can you find your voice inside the given ‘rules’ of the fourteen-line poem - the rhyme scheme, the weight of tradition: ‘a lovely challenge’.  Robert then elaborates on Clare’s background - his prodigious output of poetry (even when he was incarcerated) and from this reflects on how important it is to separate writing from publishing (to see them as two separate activities). Robert then discusses 'The Field Mouse's Nest'. He explores punctuated and unpunctuated versions of this sonnet, and Clare's use of dialect, reading from Seamus Heaney's essay ‘John Clare’s Prog’. He touches on the idea of Clare as an ecopoet. He then goes on to illuminate the evolution of his memoir A Length of Road: Finding Myself in the Footsteps of John Clare from 1995 onward - and how the poem 'Herb Robert' fits into the larger scheme of the book. He talks about 'Herb Robert' as a queer poem, and from this insight, shows how the relationship between himself and Clare - and his understanding of himself developed as he drafted and redrafted the work. He then goes on to talk at length about the hold the sonnet has had on him over his writing life, and how this poem, in particular, fitted in as one of his 'form-testing' poems. You can read John Clare's Northborough Sonnets (mentioned in the podcast) in this edition from Carcanet Press.  Seamus Heaney's essay on John Clare comes from his collection of essays The Redress of Poetry (Faber, 2002). Here is a version of 'The Field Mouse's Nest' from the Poetry Archive (with 'cesspools' instead of 'sexpools' in the final line). Robert Hamberger has been shortlisted and highly commended for Forward prizes, appearing in the Forward Book of Poetry 2020. He won The London Magazine Poetry Prize 2023 and has been awarded a Hawthornden Fellowship. His poetry has featured as the Guardian Poem of the Week and in British, American, Irish and Japanese anthologies. He has published six poetry pamphlets and four full-length collections. Blue Wallpaper (Waterloo Press) was shortlisted for the 2020 Polari Prize. His prose memoir with poems A Length of Road: finding myself in the footsteps of John Clare was published by John Murray in 2021. His fifth collection Nude Against A Rock from Waterloo Press was published in October 2024. You can find Robert Hamberger's website here. You can follow me on X - @cwjoneschris or on Bluesky - @cwjoneschris.bsky.social for more updates on future episodes.   Herb Robert What flavour of man is this, whose tips unpeel into flowers? His arrows blossom. Five petals top each blood-line that dips and lifts through the breeze. I've seen him hide by the creaky bridge where lattice-water dabbles a trout's tail while bubbles rise. His leaves mimic ferns, his colour campion.  How can he be less than he is? He lives his name. Two bulbs branch from every stem, until I catch him taking over the wood-side. A hundred buds swarm their messages on the air. If I eat his breath will it heal me? Stroke him across my temples quietly, quietly.