The Way Out Is In

• The Four Immeasurable Minds (Episode #88)

  Welcome to episode 88 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino discuss one of the Buddha’s key teachings: the four immeasurable minds. When cultivated, these four qualities – love, compassion, joy, and equanimity – can help heal negative emotions and lead to a more fulfilling, compassionate life. Both hosts share personal stories and insights about how to apply these teachings, and how to help transform suffering and cultivate a deeper understanding and connection with ourselves and those around us. They emphasize the importance of self-love, deep listening, and embracing interbeing, as well as the power of small acts of kindness, the role of playfulness, the wisdom of non-discrimination in leading a more fulfilling life, and more. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Donate to support Plum Village’s reconstruction https://plumvillage.org/donate Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing The Four Immeasurable Mindshttps://tnhaudio.org/tag/four-immeasurable-minds Dharma Talk: ‘The Four Immeasurable Minds – The Four Elements of True Love’ with Sister Dieu Nghiem (Sister Jina)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKXJIdhJJHo Brahmaviharahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara Sariputrahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C4%81riputra Sister Chan Khonghttps://plumvillage.org/about/sister-chan-khong Maitrihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitr%C4%AB Order of Interbeinghttps://orderofinterbeing.org/ Trevor Noahhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Noah ‘Listening to Namo Avalokiteshvara’https://plumvillage.app/listening-to-namo-avalokiteshvara/ Upekshahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upeksha_(Indian_thought) Quotes “If you learn to practice love, compassion, joy, and equanimity, you will know how to heal the illnesses of anger, sorrow, insecurity, sadness, hatred, loneliness, and unhealthy attachments.” “You have to learn to be like the Earth. The Earth doesn’t discriminate; it accepts all and is the mother of all.” “Understanding is love, and it’s the most profound love because, when you understand, there’s no longer a barrier between you and me as separate people.” “The safest foundation is understanding. When you have that, you can work tirelessly because your understanding is your compass. And it can give you so much insight and so many ways of bridging the separation.” “One word can release suffering, one action can save a life.” “Looking with eyes of compassion, we can listen deeply to the cries of the world.” “There is a truth in Buddhism that, no matter what condition you’re going to find yourself in, suffering’s going to be there; your mind is going to create moments of ‘you’re not enough’.” “Why not be soft? There is so much strength in softness.” “Thay talked about how we can find joy in everything, that we can find joy in a pebble on the beach, we can find joy in a flower. We can find joy in someone’s smile. We can find joy in the fact that we’re alive. We can find joy in the fact that we can see all the textures and colors in the world. It doesn’t have to be a big thing, but it is the recognition of what it is to be alive.” “I love the idea that one smile from somebody can restore our faith in humanity. Often, we think we have to act in big ways; that we have to carry out bold actions to create change. But one smile can genuinely save someone’s life. As Thay said, one small action can save a life; even a smile can change a life. We underestimate the power of the small things in life. We’re taught to see things in grand ways, but, often, seeing things in the small ways can be more important.” “Non-discrimination is the wisdom that we all are children of this Earth and we manifest on this Earth and we will return to the Earth.” “We should never be too sure of ourselves, our views, and our feeling of righteousness, because that only leads to more division.” “When you touch these elements of true love, loving kindness, compassion, and joy, your interbeing becomes stronger. Because if you have joy and you’ve tasted it, don’t you want others to have joy?” “Non-discrimination is for the more-than-human world as well; it’s for all beings. Because it’s very easy to separate ourselves from the natural world and to forget that, actually, the health of the trees is our health and the health of the oceans is our health; that, actually, the love that Mother Earth gives to us is also the love that we can offer back. So there’s a real feeling of reciprocity there.”

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  1:33:35
• The Noble Eightfold Path (Episode #87)

  Welcome to episode 87 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino discuss the Noble Eightfold Path, a fundamental teaching that was emphasized by the Buddha. The eight elements of the path are: right view, right thinking, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right diligence, right mindfulness, and right concentration. The hosts focus on each element and explain their interconnectedness and how they form a comprehensive approach to self-discovery, personal transformation, and spiritual development. Jo and Brother Phap Huu also emphasise the importance of making the Noble Eightfold Path relevant, accessible, and applicable to contemporary challenges and needs, and the role of Plum Village community in adapting these teachings.The episode ends with a short meditation guided by Brother Phap Huu. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing Dhyana in Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana_in_Buddhism The Bodhi Treehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi_tree Dharma Talks: ‘Right Livelihood and True Love’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/right-livelihood-and-true-love 51 Mental Formationshttps://plumvillage.org/transcriptions/51-mental-formation The Way Out Is In: ‘Taming Our Survival Instinct (Episode #65)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/taming-our-survival-instinct-episode-65 Sister Lang Nghiemhttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sr-lang-nghiem Sister True Dedicationhttps://www.instagram.com/sistertruededication/ Brother Phap Ung https://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/brother-chan-phap-ung  The Five Mindfulness Trainings https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/the-5-mindfulness-trainings The Fourteen Mindfulness Trainingshttps://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/the-14-mindfulness-trainings  Old Path White Clouds https://plumvillage.org/books/old-path-white-clouds-2 Quotes “The question is whether you want to liberate yourself or not. If you do, practice the Noble Eightfold Path.” “‘Now I have a path, there’s nothing to fear’ – because once you have the path, even if suffering is there, you will know how to walk it, because you start to see the way.” “The Buddha said that there are two extreme paths that we should avoid. The first one is seeking sensual pleasures, the pleasures of the world. The second is the practice of depriving the body, such as the practice of asceticism. Those extremes do not lead towards happiness and peace, they lead to failure on the path of understanding and love. And he said we have to find a middle way. And the middle is the Eight Noble Path.” “What we see, what we hear, what we taste, and what we consume on a daily basis will affect the way we are thinking. So, by focusing and practicing right thought, you will start to have a lot of agency. You will start to reflect on how your thought patterns are created, what habits arise in your daily life because of your thoughts, because of the ingredients that have been taken in through your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and mind consciousness.” “We do workshops on learning how to listen before even speaking. How to listen with our whole body, how to listen so that we don’t react, how to listen so we don’t allow our judgmental mind to try to fix that person right away. And then to mindfully select the words that we want to use to communicate. Even if it’s a wrong perception, there’s a way to communicate, to remove the wrong perception – or there’s a way to justify it and create even more distance and destruction.” “When we learn to expand our understanding, I think our life will become richer.” “There are pathways in life via which we know we can get richer and become filled with wealth. But what is our truest belonging? It’s not money. When we die, money doesn’t go with us. What is left behind is our legacy of who we were as a human being.” “I remember a soldier asking Thay [Thich Nhat Hanh] about how he can apply this pathway to his career, as a protector. And Thay said, ‘Of course we want compassionate soldiers. I would rather have you holding that weapon, who has deep understanding and has interbeing, than someone who is evil and who just wants to punish or be violent.’” “Sometimes we talk about the Zen mind as a mind that is empty. That’s not it. In the Buddhist deep meaning of emptiness, emptiness is ‘very full’; because of emptiness, everything can coexist.” “Mindful first and foremost is to be mindful of the suffering that is present, as well as mindful of the joy and happiness that is also present. So we want to continue to transform suffering as well as to create and generate joy and happiness, for ourselves and for all beings.” “Concentration can be grounded and developed everywhere, anywhere, and all at once.” “What Buddhism does, and what the teachings of the Buddha do, is show that we have a choice in everything we do. Because often we feel that life is imposed on us, that we don’t have choices. But, actually, in every single event, however painful, we always have a choice of how to respond. And that choice is based on our awareness. We need to be aware of what is going on, what the situation is. We need to be aware of our habit energy, and then we need to be aware of these teachings that show an alternative.” “We have our entire life to learn and we don’t have to be perfect now. But, as Thich Nhat Hanh would say, if there’s a little bit of improvement every day, that is more than enough. We don’t need to become suddenly enlightened.” “The exponential nature of technology, with AI and everything else, means that, actually, it’s easier to travel away from ourselves than towards ourselves.”

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  1:31:43
• Are You Sure? (Episode #86)

  Welcome to episode 86 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino discuss Thich Nhat Hanh’s calligraphic work ‘Are You Sure?’. Together, the presenters discuss how this simple question encourages us to examine our perceptions, assumptions, and certainties about ourselves and the world around us as a path to greater understanding and well-being. The conversation further explores the importance of cultivating an open, curious, and reflective mindset, rather than clinging to rigid beliefs or opinions; being present, listening deeply to ourselves and others; the value of community, friendship, and feedback in helping us to see our blind spots and to grow; the interplay between the historical and ultimate dimensions of life, and how holding multiple perspectives can allow us to respond with wisdom and compassion; and more. The episode concludes with a short meditation guided by Brother Phap Huu.Enjoy! Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing Koanhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan  Cong Phu Journal – Everything You Need to Know About the Practice Notebookhttps://plumvillage.app/cong-phu-journal-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-practice-notebook Plum Village podcast: ‘With Each and Every Brushstroke: When Art and Meditation Come Together’https://plumvillage.org/library/meditation/with-each-and-every-brushstroke-when-art-meditation-come-together The Fourteen Mindfulness Trainingshttps://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/the-14-mindfulness-trainings Sister Peacehttps://www.sfzc.org/teachers/sister-peace Brother Phap Khoihttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/brother-phap-khoi The Way Out Is In: ‘Shining Light (Episode #63)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/shining-light-episode-63 The Way Out Is In: ‘Bringing the Ultimate Dimension Down to Earth (Episode #40)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/bringing-the-ultimate-dimension-down-to-earth-episode-40 Joanna Macyhttps://www.joannamacy.net/ The Way Out Is In: ‘Active Hope: The Wisdom of Joanna Macy (Episode #25)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/active-hope-the-wisdom-of-joanna-macy-episode-25 The Way Out Is In: ‘Grief and Joy on a Planet in Crisis: Joanna Macy on the Best Time to Be Alive (Episode #12)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/grief-and-joy-on-a-planet-in-crisis-joanna-macy-on-the-best-time-to-be-alive-episode-12 Quotes “‘Are you sure?’ is a question that directs towards our mind consciousness and particularly towards our perceptions. So we are always creating perceptions, from what we see, what we hear, what we have observed. And a lot of the time we believe our perceptions. And because of our habitual energy of self, there is pride connected to it, there is certainty connected to it, and there is a righteous energy that we all carry in our way of being.” “The Buddha would say that 98% of our perceptions are wrong. And the other two percent should be our way of double-checking.” “Reflecting is double-checking. It is to look more deeply, to see the roots, the source of the perception that we have created. This is an ongoing practice. In some of our locations in the monastery, we have ‘Are you sure?’ literally framed, because a lot of the time we can be very sure about our own self, about our own practice, about our own growth, and even about our own insight.” “The perception about Zen is that you reach enlightenment and then you’re done. But enlightenment is always enlightenment of something. And that enlightenment is a kind of understanding. And understanding is very organic. It has to be alive. It’s adaptive to the suffering of our times, the happiness of our times, the well-being of our times. So our looking deeply should always contain a question like, ‘Are we certain?’, ‘Are we sure?’” “We’re living in a world with huge levels of uncertainty. We’ve got the sudden exponential growth of AI. We’ve got so much uncertainty in terms of economics, in terms of politics, in terms of climate change. There’s so much where we don’t know. And often people want to look for certainty when there’s uncertainty. They feel they need to find a grounding, because if they don’t feel grounded, then they can be overwhelmed and washed away. Let’s get back to some basics here: being certain is not really a good foundation – but Buddhism offers some very good foundations for living with uncertainty.” “I feel confidence when I want to show up with my full presence, but I don’t want to be so certain because then I’m not going to be able to listen. And as we know, and as our training shows, listening is already a communication.” “Don’t believe everything I say; believe what you put into practice.” “None of us will escape suffering. But if you know how to care for it, and you know how to tend to your suffering, you can grow the lotus out of the mud.” “We can’t reflect in a hurry.” “In 2025, with the uncertainties and the fast pace of our society, I think it’s crucial that we see the importance of stillness, the importance of allowing our understanding to ripen.” “Zen is to learn to stop. It’s the first wing of meditation, it’s learning to give yourself the space and the time and the ability to pause.” “There are so many moments when we’re going to find ourselves sitting. So how can that moment translate from being still in our corner, in our home, to the engagement of our life with everything that we do?” “Wherever there is darkness, light will appear. Wherever there is light, darkness will also be there.” “The Buddha has taught us that every action we take – whether it’s thought, speech, or bodily action – bears our signature. And we will receive the consequences of all of our actions.” “A breath is very spiritual because it allows us to be in touch with the whole cosmos. That is a very spiritual moment of interconnectedness.”

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  1:21:39
• Zen: Meaning in Simplicity (Episode #85)

  Welcome to episode 85 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino discuss the true meaning of Zen, finding beauty and meaning in simplicity, and how to practice so in everyday life. Also, what does it mean to be part of a Zen tradition? And how do we practice Zen? How do we see the world ‘through the eyes of Zen’? The conversation also touches upon the cultivation of mindfulness, concentration, and insight; the importance of humility; finding beauty in the mundane; the sacredness of objects and spaces; the role of rituals and routines; the balance between sophistication and simplicity in one’s spiritual practice; and much more. The episode concludes with a short meditation, guided by Brother Phap Huu, on being present and grateful for the wonders of life.Enjoy! Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Donate to support Plum Village’s reconstruction https://plumvillage.org/donate Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing Samathahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samatha-vipassan%C4%81Dhyana in Buddhismhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana_in_Buddhism Dharma Talks: ‘Taking Refuge in the Three Jewels’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/taking-refuge-in-the-three-jewels-sr-chan-duc-spring-retreat-2018-05-20 Wim Wendershttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Wenders Perfect Dayshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv8YO5BXCAQ Love Letter to the Earthhttps://www.parallax.org/product/love-letter-to-the-earth/Sister Chan Khonghttps://plumvillage.org/about/sister-chan-khong  Sister Hien Nghiem (Sister True Dedication)https://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sister-hien-nghiem European Institute of Applied Buddhismhttps://www.eiab.eu Sutrashttps://plumvillage.org/genre/sutras Quotes “Zen is an art of contemplation in order to see reality as it is.” “This is because that is.” “The first foundation of mindfulness, which is the core of Zen, is learning to be in the body; aware of the body in the body.” “The essence of Zen can simply be called the beginner’s mind, or the art of stopping, the art of living. And I can confidently say that in the training of the Zen school, we have to embody the three elements or three energies. Thay sometimes called them the holy energies: the energy of mindfulness, the energy of concentration, and the energy of insight.” “Sacredness is very alive when the practice is alive. And that definition comes into play when we’re in a space that has cultivated this energy of mindfulness, concentration, and insight, such as Thay’s hut, where we’re sitting now.” “Being aware and having the ability to take care of ourselves in the practice of sitting is as exciting and challenging as scoring a goal.” “I saw Thay open a door, and I learned everything I needed to learn.” “We can find meaning in everything.” “Being mindful is to establish yourself to be so alive in the present moment that nothing becomes boring.” “The art of Zen and the art of meditation is seeing the mundane, seeing the simple everyday life. And that becomes a sacred action, because our relationship to what we are doing has deep meaning, and that deep meaning represents our inner beauty, our inner contentment with this life.”“When you have something and you know it is enough, you don’t have to chase anymore. Your life suddenly becomes so much deeper and more relaxed.” “The schedule becomes our teacher, because it helps realign our energies. But we also have to have the flexibility to not be so caught in form. Form is important. Form can support us. But form shouldn’t entrap us.” “Don’t take lightly the words you announce. They come with particular energies that will come into play.” “Talent has to go with virtue.”

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  1:36:33
• Present Moment (Episode #84)

  Welcome to episode 84 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino focus on profound Buddhist sutra The Discourse on Knowing the Better Way to Live Alone. Using personal stories and examples, they illustrate the daily relevance of its teachings on being present in the moment, acceptance, and the interconnectedness of all things. Brother Phap Huu discusses how this sutra emphasizes not dwelling in the past or worrying about the future, but instead being fully present in and accepting of the here and now. He also reflects on recent events in the Plum Village community, such as a fire that destroyed an important building and why this was a profound experience for the community, leading them to grieve the loss while also finding strength in their togetherness. The presenters further explore grieving as a necessary part of the healing process, acknowledging loss rather than trying to bypass difficult emotions; the practice of being fully present (and how to recognize when one is truly present), even in times of chaos and uncertainty; the importance of community, the role of leadership, and the transmission of teachings; the need to accept suffering as a path to greater freedom and understanding; and much more. Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/   And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Donate to support Plum Village’s reconstruction https://plumvillage.org/donate Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing Sister Hien Nghiem (Sister True Dedication)https://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sister-hien-nghiem Sutrashttps://plumvillage.org/genre/sutras Magnolia Grove Monasteryhttps://magnoliagrovemonastery.org/ ‘Letters from Thich Nhat Hanh’https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters ‘Plum Village Practice Centers’https://plumvillage.org/community/monastic-practice-centres Dharma Talks: ‘Redefining the Four Noble Truths’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/redefining-the-four-noble-truths Quotes “The Buddha taught: ‘Do not pursue the past. Do not lose yourself in the future. The past no longer is. The future has not yet come. Looking deeply at life as it is in the very here and now, the practitioner dwells in stability and freedom. We must be diligent today. To wait until tomorrow is too late. Death comes unexpectedly. How can we bargain with it? The sage calls a person who dwells in mindfulness night and day the one who knows the better way to live alone.’” “We all have an appointment with life every day. And that appointment with life is the very here and now.” “To not grieve would be to deny our humanity.” “We need the ability to ground ourselves, whether it is through a practice of sitting meditation, walking meditation, or mindful breathing: a place where we can be still and let all of our feelings appear, just like letting a lake become calm, so that we can identify and acknowledge how the world and the situation is affecting us.” “Building my stability just means being able to also recognize the wonders I have in this moment. And that means also coming to community, coming to your loved ones, acknowledging what you have in this moment and what you’ve lost.” “We have to come together in order to resist. We have to come together in order to speak the voice that is not being heard right now, to show the injustice that is happening.” “A collective voice is much stronger than an individual.” “We have to move with kindness even when we are being treated unkindly; we still have to respond with kindness. That is our vow and nobody can take that away. The only thing that can take that away is our own anger and our own decision about the actions that we take.” “We cannot lose the integrity and humanity that we have cultivated and developed. That is the freedom that we have. That is the stability that will be transmitted into the next generation.” “Whatever emotion we’re cultivating, we will become that emotion. So if we cultivate anger, we will become angry. If we cultivate kindness and peace, but with the Zen sword of strength, then that’s what we will become.” “We are not a creation, we are a manifestation. So we are here because we have been conditioned by many elements.” “Thich Nhat Hanh gives the metaphor of a boat that’s in danger of sinking. If everyone is panicking, the boat will surely capsize and everyone will be lost. But sometimes it takes just one calm person on board to settle everyone down and save the boat. So there’s something very powerful about not reacting to everything.” “If you know how to suffer, you will suffer much less.”

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  1:38:50

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