Two Inconvenient Women

THROWBACK EPISODE: This podcast was first recorded in July 2025

“I will never apologise for embracing joy and beauty - even when the world is falling apart – for joy and beauty are the fuel for my activism”.

These words by Karen Walrond are one of the inspirations for this week’s conversation on 'Joy', exploring how cultivating joy is both a way to resource ourselves and build the resilience needed to meet the challenges of our world. Joy is often seen as being the same thing as happiness, and yet these two emotions are profoundly different; one coming from external sources, one being cultivated from within. It is not a surprise that the practice of joy is embedded into all world religions as it can become a deeply spiritual practice – as well as a beautifully infectious state to find ourselves in.

In this week's conversation we dive into the meaning of joy, how it shows up in our lives; how activists across history have cultivated joy in their lives and work and what happens when we learn to practice joy as part of our daily rhythms.

In this episode we reference the following:

Mission: Joy – Dalai Lama & Desmond Tutu (video)
Habits for practising joy - ThoughtBox (PDF)
Seeking Language Large Enough – David Whyte / On Being (podcast)
Climate Courage Campaign – Climate Majority Project (website)
Joy Over Fear – St Ebbe’s School (website)
Schools of Dreams - Kimberley Oliff Cooper TEDx Talk (video)
The Fun Habit - Mike Rucker (book)
Glorious – MaMuse (Rachel’s current favourite joyful song)

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All of us are former children and for most have memories of some of the stories we read or were told when we were children. As adults, many of us still encounter these stories - whether from reading to young ones or for our own enjoyment. As a medium, children's stories are doing more than just keeping young people entertained - they are pathways for growth; helping to navigate some of the challenges, hurdles and opportunities of life in a safe and supported way. When starting to explore why storytelling is a foundation stone for human evolution, our entire understanding of children's stories can begin to expand.

As former English teachers, Holly and Rachel have read and taught a lot of fiction to younger readers and we both are avid readers of children's stories, advocating the deep wisdom to be found in many classic texts, no matter our age. In this conversation we explore the why, what and how of the values and constructs of children's fiction; explore how myth and storytelling has passed down through human history; think about the impact of films on story learning and reflect on some of the wisdom of key classic texts across the world.

In this episode, we mention:

Why You Should Read Children's Books, Even Though You Are So Old and Wise - Katherine Rundell (article)
C. S. Lewis on Writing For Children - CS Lewis (article)
Meister Eckhart's Book of Darkness & Light: Meditations on the Path of the Wayless Way - Jon M. Sweeney, Mark S. Burrows and Meister Eckhart (book)
The Death of the Author - Roland Barthes (book)
Triple WellBeing Storybooks - Rachel Musson & Alex Brenan (storybooks)
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The concept of social contracts in modern culture came through the work and philosophies of folks such as Thomas Hobbes, John Locke and Jean-Jacques Rousseau as a way of communities agreeing to behave and trust in collective ideals. Whilst intentions may be valid, the structures of this imposed model of organising communities falls down when trust is broken - and we're finding ourselves in that state of collapse in many countries and societies around the world. Which has the potential to open up different ways of belonging and living alongside one another - ways that come not from an imposed and centralised narrative, but that actually work within the contexts and communities we live in.

In this week's episode we talk about the impact of the social contract falling away, and the reneging of social promise in many parts of our societies. We discuss where trust comes into the equation and explore models across our human story that shine a light on more robust and localised ways of building resilient and healthy communities.

During the conversation we reference the following:

The Social Contract - Jean-Jacques Rousseau (PDF)
Local Futures (website and movement)
The real Lord of the Flies - Rucker Bregnan (article)
Beyond Civilisation - Daniel Quinn (PDF)
Transforming Leadership - online short course (website)

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Many organisations and governments work within a strategy of Futures Thinking - a strategic concept to make predictions and pathways for probable and plausible futures. Yet how useful is this when the variables around us are changing so rapidly? And how plausible can any strategic planning be within structures only designed with short-term foundations?

In this week's episode we explore the future (sort of) and whether we have any capacity to predict anything. We talk about the role of presence in enabling us to be rooted in the here and now, rather than living in the past or future; explore the concept of seven-generational thinking; think about the limits our future is being given as we flounder with some of the systemic challenges on a national and global scale and reflect on why it can feel both terrifying and liberating to 'let go' of knowing and start to sense our way forward instead.

In this week's episode we reference the following:

Berkana Two Loops model of systems change (framework & website)
Berkana Institute (Website)
Meg Wheatley (website)
Imagination Activism - Phoebe Tickell (Website)
Futures Thinking - UK Government (Website)
Imagination Taking Power - Rob Hopkins (website)

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We are living in increasingly turbulent times and the shockwaves as old systems fall apart are starting to impact ever more people. Whilst we talk a lot in this podcast about why systems are changing and about the healthier systems waiting to emerge, it feels important to keep talking about the pain and discomfort of this 'in between part' as things fall away and new things arrive. Pressures of daily life mixed with increasing levels of geo-political unrest and extreme weather events is beginning to take its toll - on the nervous systems in particular. Being brave and resilient - and optimistic - whilst navigating turbulence can feel a real struggle. And yet the capacity of human resilience and strength to weather storms is humbling.

In this podcast we explore the tension between discomfort and creativity; between growth and fear; light and dark and how turbulence can be a crucible for maturity. As well as sharing our own experiences of navigating complex times, we talk about the nervous system regulation and structures to support individual and collective resilience to allow us to be strong and weather storms as they come, growing in strength together.

In this episode we reference the following:

Everything we teach should be different from machines - Jack Ma, World Economic Forum (short video)
Think like a tree - Wired Media (short video)
Attached - Amir Levine, Rachel S. F. Heller (book)
Learning for Life - ThoughtBox (Free learning resources)
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