All Things Conflict

In this episode of All Things Conflict - Justice Redesigned, Maria sits down for a deeply insightful conversation with Sir Max Hill KC, former Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) and head of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for England and Wales. With nearly 40 years of experience on both sides of the courtroom, Sir Max offers an unparalleled insider perspective on where our legal system succeeds, where it is cracking under pressure, and what it truly takes to deliver justice.

Sir Max reflects on the heavy burden of prosecuting landmark national security cases—ranging from the last Real IRA campaign to Al-Qaeda and the 7/7 London bombings. He shares his nuanced view on the "line" between criminal conduct and civil liberties, detailing why older, simpler common law tools are often superior to modern legislation. The conversation also tackles critical contemporary issues, including the crisis of care-experienced youth falling prey to criminal exploitation, the gridlock of the remand prison population, and the highly debated Court Modernisation Bill.

Key Takeaways


Simplifying Terror Legislation: Sir Max argues that we often do not need more 21st-century laws; old-fashioned common law offenses like murder or conspiracy to murder are perfectly equipped to prosecute complex modern crimes.


Guarding the Gateway for Youth: Criminalising teenagers at 14 or 15 permanently alters their life trajectories. Sir Max highlights the effectiveness of "conditional cautions" to divert young people into supportive pathways rather than clogging the court system.


The Disadvantage Gap for Care-Leavers: As Chair of the Drive Forward Foundation, Sir Max advocates for specialised support and higher benefit structures for care-experienced youth, who lack the parental and societal safety nets that insulate others from criminal exploitation.


The Crisis of Remand & Delayed Justice: With roughly 20% of the prison population currently sitting on remand, delayed justice frequently amounts to denied justice. Sir Max addresses the critical failure of a system where defendants can wait years in custody only to be acquitted.


Defending the Right to a Jury: While acknowledging the need for greater efficiency to clear the post-COVID backlog of 10,000+ Crown Court cases, Sir Max vocally opposes the government's proposal to wholesale remove jury trials for complex fraud or lower-tier offenses.


The Single-Budget Tug of War: Handed the "keys to the Ministry of Justice," Sir Max's primary structural fix would be separating the court budget from the prison estate. Currently, skyrocketing prison maintenance costs are starving the courts, leading to leaky infrastructure and stagnating legal aid wages.

Key Timestamps


00:00 – Introduction: Meet Sir Max Hill KC, Former Director of Public Prosecutions.


03:33 – The Burden of Responsibility: Prosecuting the IRA, Al-Qaeda, and the 7/7 Bombings.


06:43 – Defining "The Line": How prosecutors choose whether to charge a suspect.


10:55 – Conditional Cautions: Using out-of-court disposals to tackle recidivism.


15:11 – Levelling the Playing Field: Supporting care-experienced youth with the Drive Forward Foundation.


22:51 – The Backlog Crisis: Brain Leveson’s efficiency reports and the Court Modernisation Bill.


26:22 – Reclassification of Offenses vs. Removing the Fundamental Right to a Jury Trial.


29:20 – Trapped on Remand: The human cost of keeping unconvicted individuals behind bars.


35:08 – Tearing Down Silos: The missing link between the MOJ, Home Office, and Department for Education.


40:05 – The Long Island Amnesty Model: Using community accountability to end open-air drug markets.


44:33 – Austerity in the CPS: Rebuilding a decimated legal headcount and operating budget.


51:12 – The Surprise Question: Sir Max’s radical funding fix for the Ministry of Justice.


55:10 – Closing Thoughts: Why the English legal system is still respected around the world.

Social Links

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⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠HOST BIO

Maria founded the Centre for Peaceful Solutions in response to the fatal shooting of a 7 year old in her neighbourhood. She developed a model of conflict resolution for violent crime using her brainchild, the Dialogue Road Map (DRM).  

Over 30 years she has mediated everything from threat to life gang disputes to high stakes business deals gone wrong, Maria empowers people to resolve conflict without reliance on experts. So she trains violent prisoners to be facilitators, leaders to be effective communicators, teenagers to be peer mediators and neighbours to be tenant listeners within their respective communities.

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

Most conflicts never actually get resolved, they just go quiet until they resurface somewhere else. Philosopher Paul Baker returns for his fourth conversation with host Maria Arpa to unpack his developing theory of systemic win, built around a simple but powerful order: address what's worse before chasing what's better.

Drawing on examples from couples therapy, prison work and restorative justice practice, Paul and Maria explore why a neutral third party who cares about the whole system can transform unresolved harm into a genuine foundation for repair, and why avoiding discomfort, including the human need to grieve, only delays the real work.

Listeners working in justice, mediation or restorative practice will take away a clearer framework for distinguishing surface-level fixes from root-cause healing, along with practical thinking on how to support both the harmed and the person who caused harm.

Tune in for a rich, reflective conversation on what it really takes to complete a conflict rather than just survive it.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Address the "worse" before chasing the "better." Paul argues this order matters: skipping straight to positivity without dealing with what's actually wrong just papers over the problem.

Recognise that conflict you think is "resolved" often isn't. If it only de-escalated rather than being fully addressed, the unresolved part resurfaces and tangles itself into future disagreements.

Bring in a third party who cares about the whole system, not just one side. Mediators, facilitators or restorative justice practitioners who hold the wellbeing of everyone involved can shift a conflict into genuinely new territory.

Don't deny people the need to grieve a conflict or fallout. Treating every situation with forced positivity is a form of conflict avoidance that cuts people off from an important emotional process.

Remember that people who cause harm need healing too, separate from the people they harmed. Restorative justice practice should include support for the person who caused damage, delivered by someone not directly involved in the harm.

QUOTES

"We should pay attention, give significant attention, at least to the worse, to make sure that we aren't just... putting a plaster over the top."

"If you're not good in the fight, don't make the fight worse."

"As long as the conflict has de-escalated a bit, people think, oh, well, that conflict's dealt with. But it's not dealt with."

"To avoid or deny the human need for grieving is to cut part of our life off."

"When someone or some part of the system has lost, we mustn't punish the rest of the system around them just because they're associated with them."

Social Links

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.centreforpeacefulsolutions.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.peacefulsolutions.org.uk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.workplacehuddle.com⁠⁠

⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠HOST BIO

Maria founded the Centre for Peaceful Solutions in response to the fatal shooting of a 7 year old in her neighbourhood. She developed a model of conflict resolution for violent crime using her brainchild, the Dialogue Road Map (DRM).  

Over 30 years she has mediated everything from threat to life gang disputes to high stakes business deals gone wrong, Maria empowers people to resolve conflict without reliance on experts. So she trains violent prisoners to be facilitators, leaders to be effective communicators, teenagers to be peer mediators and neighbours to be tenant listeners within their respective communities.

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

What if the one fact that could prove a man's innocence was buried for decades? At 6:09am on the morning of the White House Farm killings, a 999 call was made from inside the house — while Jeremy Bamber stood outside surrounded by armed police. After 41 years in prison, that detail may finally matter.

In this episode of All Things Conflict, Maria Arpa is joined by innocence campaigner Phillip Walker and former broadcast journalist and ex-BT 999 operator Michael Watkins to examine the evidence behind one of Britain's most disputed convictions. Together they unpack the phone logs, forensic reports and crime scene interference that, they argue, were never properly presented to the jury — and what the case reveals about a justice system in which the prosecution controls what gets seen.

In this episode:

Why protesting your innocence can paradoxically lengthen a prison sentence

The significance of the 6:09am 999 call and how 1980s telephone tracing worked

The hidden 3:26am call log attributed to Neville Bamber

How the crime scene — and the bloodstained Bible — was rearranged

New forensic findings on the moderator and Sheila Bamber's wounds

Why the CCRC and the lack of a UK "Brady rule" make appeals so difficult

About Phillip Walker and Michael Watkins:
Phillip Walker is a member of the Jeremy Bamber Innocence Campaign, drawn to the case as a member of the public after concluding the prosecution's account was deeply flawed. Michael Watkins is a former BBC and Sky broadcast journalist who worked as a 999 and operator-line telephone exchange operator in the 1980s, and who set out to confirm the conviction but reached the opposite conclusion.

Key topics covered:

The White House Farm case background

The 999 call evidence

Hidden phone logs and disclosure failures

Crime scene interference

Forensic moderator evidence

The CCRC and appeal process

The role of the jury and the judge

If this episode made you think, follow All Things Conflict and leave a review — it helps more people find these conversations.

Social Links

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.centreforpeacefulsolutions.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.peacefulsolutions.org.uk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.workplacehuddle.com⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠HOST BIO

Maria founded the Centre for Peaceful Solutions in response to the fatal shooting of a 7 year old in her neighbourhood. She developed a model of conflict resolution for violent crime using her brainchild, the Dialogue Road Map (DRM).  

Over 30 years she has mediated everything from threat to life gang disputes to high stakes business deals gone wrong, Maria empowers people to resolve conflict without reliance on experts. So she trains violent prisoners to be facilitators, leaders to be effective communicators, teenagers to be peer mediators and neighbours to be tenant listeners within their respective communities.

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

Growing up in the care system shouldn't mean facing a lifetime of systemic hurdles, yet the narrative for care leavers hasn't changed in decades. This deeply moving conversation dives into the raw realities of childhood trauma, institutional failures, and the exhaustion of constantly fighting rigid systems that prefer scrutiny over support. From navigating residential care unprepared at twelve to surviving abusive relationships and fighting private family courts, this journey exposes the dark side of our social infrastructure. But beyond the statistics and outdated research lies a powerful story of radical resilience. Discover how processing somatic trauma, embracing a 'wounded healer' identity, and building community-led empathy can break cycles of poverty and spark true transformation. It’s time to stop letting the past define the future and finally build spaces where people feel truly seen and truly heard.

5 Key TakeawaysStatic Outcomes: Despite decades passing, the statistical outcomes and negative narratives surrounding care leavers regarding homelessness, justice system involvement, and intergenerational care entry remain stagnant.Systemic Scrutiny over Support: Vulnerable individuals frequently face institutional judgment and intense evaluation from social services rather than compassionate, trauma-informed care.Coercive Control Limitations: Historic family court structures heavily lacked understanding regarding coercive control, leaving domestic abuse victims exposed to drawn-out legal battles.The Prevention Crisis: With thousands of children on the brink of entering care, current public systems focus on costly reactive measures rather than holistic, localized prevention.Somatic Healing: Standard talking therapies often fail to address the root causes of trauma, highlighting the vital necessity of body-focused, creative, and peer-led recovery.

5 Direct Quotes"Since I left the care system, the narratives haven't changed.""The systems can cause additional layers of trauma, and that is certainly what I experienced...""It's just so tiring fighting the systems.""Don't be defined by your past. Believe in yourself and hope—never give up hope.""Empathy is one of the greatest gifts one person can give another."Key Timestamps & Chapters00:00 – Introduction to All Things Conflict & Kerry Moore02:15 – The Reality of Care Leaver Statistics05:42 – Navigating Residential Care and Institutional Trauma08:54 – Surviving Coercive Control and Family Courts18:25 – Under Scrutiny: When Systems Fail Families24:31 – Neurodivergence and Rigid Educational Models27:35 – Truly Seen, Truly Heard: Somatic Healing and Hope

Get in Contact with Kerry:https://www.linkedin.com/in/kerri-moore-812022223/- Phone: 07957 221 415- Email: TrulySeenTrulyHeard@gmail.com

Social Links⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.centreforpeacefulsolutions.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.peacefulsolutions.org.uk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.workplacehuddle.com⁠Subscribe for more:All Things Conflict explores the psychology, philosophy, and practice of conflict — from the courtroom to the boardroom to the kitchen table. If this episode made you think differently, subscribe so you never miss a conversation, and leave a review to help others find the show.#ConflictResolution #RestorativeJustice #LeadershipDevelopment #HRLeadership #PunishmentPsychology #AllThingsConflict #CriminalJusticeReform #WorkplaceConflict #HumanConnection #MindfulLeadership #RobinShohet #ConflictManagement

In this thought-provoking episode of All Things Conflict, Maria Arpa welcomes back Robin Shohet, a leading expert on supervision in the helping professions, to explore the deep-seated societal urge to punish. They deconstruct why we are so invested in punitive systems that we know, pragmatically, do not work.

The conversation moves from the "short, sharp shock" of the criminal justice system to the personal "urge to punish" in our own relationships. Robin and Maria explore how the addiction to "being right" destroys intimacy and how moving toward a restorative, connected way of living can actually decrease litigation and increase healing.

Key Takeaways



The Pragmatism of Punishment: Robin argues that punishment is often a "crime" in itself because it fails to correct behavior and ignores the societal contributions to crime.



The "Short, Sharp Shock" Trap: Society often chooses dramatic, quick punishments to avoid the depth of emotions and trauma that real justice requires.



Honesty vs. Lawsuits: Evidence from the healthcare industry shows that when professionals admit mistakes, suing rates actually go down, proving that people value truth over retaliation.



The Addiction to Being Right: The need to be "right" is identified as a major barrier to human connection, as it forces us to label others and protect our separate identities.



Criminal Justice as Alienation: Traditional systems are often designed to prevent human connection and transparency, creating a "conveyor belt" that damages the nervous systems of everyone involved.



The "All Your Faces" Method: Maria discusses the power of restorative groups where natural justice is found through direct, human dialogue rather than authoritative judgment.



Looking in the Mirror: The episode concludes with a call to personal responsibility: choosing how we respond to conflict rather than reacting from our indoctrinated survival instincts.

Key Timestamps


00:00 – Welcome back Robin Shohet: Exploring the purpose of punishment.


03:01 – Why do we punish when we know it doesn't work?.


08:22 – The Healthcare Lesson: Why admitting mistakes reduces suing rates.


13:12 – The addiction to "Being Right" and the fear of intimacy.


17:14 – From Hunter-Gatherers to Property: The origins of exclusion.


24:15 – The high cost of adversarial professions on the human soul.


33:03 – All Your Faces: Finding natural justice through dialogue.


37:36 – Final Thought: Choosing our response and looking in the mirror.

Social Links

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.centreforpeacefulsolutions.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.peacefulsolutions.org.uk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.workplacehuddle.com⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

HOST BIO

Maria founded the Centre for Peaceful Solutions in response to the fatal shooting of a 7 year old in her neighbourhood. She developed a model of conflict resolution for violent crime using her brainchild, the Dialogue Road Map (DRM).  

Over 30 years she has mediated everything from threat to life gang disputes to high stakes business deals gone wrong, Maria empowers people to resolve conflict without reliance on experts. So she trains violent prisoners to be facilitators, leaders to be effective communicators, teenagers to be peer mediators and neighbours to be tenant listeners within their respective communities.



This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/⁠⁠⁠⁠