Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee

The investing environment has gotten hard, says Christopher Sheldon, co-head of credit and capital markets at KKR, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee. “It’s adult swim only.”
There’s a lot of uncertainty in the market, and much of the investor community is trying to figure out what playing field they’re on, explains Sheldon. He discusses KKR’s latest investor letter, titled CTRL + ALT + CREDIT, intended to reboot how investors are approaching credit.
Sheldon contends that you have to be well-versed, have scale, and create your own origination, because elevated defaults and downgrades along with spreads tightening results in a “tough recipe”.
“The more flexibility you have, the more ways to win. The more scale and breadth and origination you have, the more ways to win,” he says.
Sheldon worries about lack of new supply in debt markets, that may cause spread tightening. He also notes the growing concern around outflows from certain markets. Right now, the private credit market is starting to see some flows come out on the wealth side, which is fine as redemptions are often capped. But if that is sustained for long periods of time, there may be a little bit more volatility in the market, he warns.
On AI, the technology is moving so quickly that there is a need to be thoughtful, be able to pivot, and re-underwrite these businesses. In the liquid market, it’s important to have the flexibility to buy or sell, and to get out of situations where that thesis might have changed. In illiquid markets like private credit, he advises to focus more attention on structures that protect from assets being stripped out, from cash leaking out of the system. “Even if you do worry that maybe it’s a little less resilient, having that structure could be the key differentiator of having ball control,” he says.
“Even if you do worry that maybe it’s a little less resilient, having that structure could be the key differentiator of having ball control,” he says.
Sheldon also reiterates that the private credit market is not just the direct lending market any longer. The bigger part of the private credit market is asset-based finance, which is financing the real world economy, whether it be consumer loans to hard assets like aircraft or commercial lending, or music intellectual property. ABF is a huge growing market and is a great diversifier to portfolios today, he reckons.
KKR credit investor letter: https://bit.ly/4aYV4pN

Europe has mostly missed the AI boom that’s driven a large part of US economic growth, says Mathew Cestar, president of Arini Capital Management, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee, taped in the London offices of the alternative asset manager. But that actually makes European credit more appealing, because while the intersection of technology and AI is an exciting equity story, that intersection in credit can involve “a lot of risk.”
Cestar, who was once the co-head of investment banking at a large global bank, expects to see a broadening of M&A deals in terms of size, sectors and geographies, given the supportive interest rate and anti-trust environment. He also sees continued interest in Europe from global investors. And he welcomes more regulatory scrutiny for private credit, predicting that will result in better players in the market.
“We’re super-embracing the fact that regulatory folks are now focused on private credit,” says Cestar. “If you want a market to grow sustainability and consistently, the regulatory framework is critical.”
On the private credit market, Cestar forecasts troubles, that will lead to more dispersion of returns among shops. “We’re expecting an uplift in some of the private credit defaults,” he says. Defaults in the space have so far been relatively muted, but “that will start to change, because they can’t defy gravity,” Cestar believes.

“We have this great tool out there called AI, and we haven’t 100% figured out how to implement it yet,” says Mark Jenkins, co-president and head of global credit & insurance at Carlyle, on the latest edition of ‘Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee’. Jenkins predicts that the next stage is going to be how corporates implement AI into their workflows, and that the process is “really in the first innings of implement”.
OpenAI, Anthropic, and many others are developing tools for workflow, and Jenkins predicts they will take “not years, but several months” to impact systems. Carlyle, for example, is already using AI to help its investment group be more efficient, and to consume massive amounts of data in ways that would be difficult without AI, says Jenkins. But one has to use AI appropriately, he adds. “It’s not going to make the decision for you.”
While change has been a constant feature during Jenkins’ 35-year career, nothing has been like AI in the past three years. Embrace the change and incorporate it into what you do, because typically, those are the ones that prosper, he counsels.
On the broader investing climate, Jenkins is positive about the macroeconomic environment for the next 12 months. But moving out to 2027 and 2028, inflation may rear its head again.

“Whether it be in the high yield bond market or in the leveraged loan market, even the hint or threat of AI impeding on really any sector – you see pretty significant downside,” says Mitch Garfin, co-head of leveraged finance at the world’s largest asset manager BlackRock, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee.
Garfin is constructive on the market generally, with growth continuing to “chug along” and inflation currently well-contained. He also identifies significant opportunities from AI, including ongoing data centre build-outs contributing to a significant uptick in supply in the high yield market that is likely to continue.
But, he notes, there have also been situations where bonds and loans are down anywhere from a couple of points, and in some cases 5 or even 10 points, on “the immediate sort of threat” from AI. “It’s something to keep an eye on,” he says.
Discussing the high yield market specifically, Garfin observes that consumer and retail continue to lag. “We’ve been underweight retail, consumer products, restaurants, leisure – a lot of the sectors that are going to be more impacted by a declining or weaker low-to-middle-class consumer,” he says.
He also gives advice to younger industry hopefuls, including staffers and investors.

“It’s going to be a slow build, and we think a sustained multi-year increase in activity,” says David Miller, head of private credit and equity at Morgan Stanley Investment Management, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee, speaking about M&A and LBOs.
The geopolitical headlines haven’t yet changed the economic picture, says Miller. But over time, they may impact on confidence and fan uncertainty.
“As uncertainty rises, risk premium will rise. So that can change the calculus - but we’re not seeing it in the markets yet,” he observes.
Miller also discusses running both the private equity and private credit businesses at Morgan Stanley’s asset management arm, a team that numbers more than 150 strong, and what it’s like being part of a global bank.