Depositions can be a minefield—and not just because of the facts. In this episode of May the Record Reflect, trial attorney Whitney Untiedt returns to share her expert strategies for navigating the disruptive behaviors of difficult counsel and witnesses. From talkers and interrupters to charmers and egomaniacs, Whitney breaks down the types of jerks you’ll encounter and how to stay focused, professional, and in control. Whether you’re taking or defending a deposition, this episode offers practical tools, real-world stories, and a reminder that your attitude is your greatest ally.Topics4:52 Obstreperous behaviors 9:45 When the jerk is the witness12:30 Strategies for handling witnesses16:28 Preparing for opposing counsel18:27 In-the-moment responses23:16 Socialized for niceness27:29 Supporting your client31:45 What not to do37:39 Rules about lawyer conduct43:53 Remote versus in-person depositions52:51 Why do lawyers act like jerks57:57 A war story1:01:01 Florida programs1:07:01 Signoff questionsQuote“The worst jerks are the ones that kill you with kindness than the ones who try to come at you with a butcher knife.” Whitney UntiedtResourcesWhitney Untiedt (bio)Deposition Skills: Florida (program)Jayme Cassidy (bio)Building Trial Skills: Florida (program)
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68. I Feel for You: The Lawyer’s Occupational Hazard of Vicarious Trauma, with Prof. Angela Downes
Long hours, heavy caseloads, high stakes—such is the modern trial practice. But when lawyers represent survivors of violent or traumatic incidents, they often experience next-level stress caused by empathetic engagement. In this episode, UNT Dallas College of Law professor and JAMS neutral mediator, arbitrator, and special master Angela Downes introduces listeners to vicarious trauma and its effects on body and mind, how vicarious trauma differs from burnout, and how to recognize compassion fatigue in yourself and your colleagues. Most importantly, Professor Downes discusses effective stress-management strategies that would benefit anyone with a busy trial practice. Topics3:46 What is vicarious trauma? 4:15 Lawyers, vicarious trauma, and burnout7:31 Indicators of vicarious trauma and getting support15:49 How firms can help17:40 Self-care strategies27:55 ABA studies on lawyer stress31:02 More strategies35:09 Recognizing vicarious trauma in others38:20 New generation attunement to wellness40:24 Sign-off questions Quote“So many of us are defined by the work that we do, and we are more than that. We are more than just … being attorneys and counselors. Although it’s a big part of us, there are so many sides to what we do and who we are as people.” Professor Angela DownesResourcesProfessor Angela Downes (bio)NITA Women in Trial (program)Stress, Drink, Leave (article)ABA Profile of the Legal Profession (article)ABA Directory of Legal Assistance Programs (resource)
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67. Eight Steps for Handling Deposition Exhibits, with John Farrell
Depositions are a key building block in legal disputes, especially for cases that proceed to trial. According to veteran trial lawyer John Farrell, properly handling an exhibit so it’s admissible at trial is an overlooked skill that can, and should, be practiced until it becomes second nature. In this episode, John reveals eight crucial steps for handling documents that ensure your deposition flows smoothly and exhibits are admitted for trial. He breaks down the process step by step, gives the exact sample language that ensures exhibits are properly marked and admitted, and suggests ways to keep court reporters and judges pleased with your professionalism. Topics3:59 Asking questions before marking a document 5:35 When witnesses want to see a document first7:48 Making deposition exhibits admissible at trial8:30 Eight steps for handling exhibits: Step 19:36 Step 210:35 Step 312:08 Demonstrations of marking different documents25:26 Step 4 , and helping the court reporter27:59 Step 5, and the important question to ask your witness29:12 Step 6, and two more important questions32:15 Step 733:37 Step 835:35 Three-article series on depositions37:23 Signoff questions Quote“‘Bears the word’ . . . is the safe phrase that judges like to hear.” John FarrellResourcesJohn Farrell (bio)Deposition articles (1, 2, 3)Refreshing Recollection and Impeachment (article)
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66. Representing Survivors of the "Hidden Crime," with Barbara Barron
Content Warning: This episode discusses, in non-graphic terms, representing intimate partner violence survivors. Being a trial lawyer is one of the toughest, most demanding professions out there, and when you’re representing family members in distress it’s even more so. Hofstra Law professor Barbara Barron discusses advocacy challenges faced by lawyers working with survivors of intimate partner violence, or IPV. Although some details are particular to IPV survivor representation, trial lawyers in nearly every practice area will find Barbara’s reflections on supporting reluctant or intimidated witnesses during testimony, dealing with pro se opposing counsel, and handling emotional witnesses or clients to be applicable to their own high-stakes cases. Topics4:00 What is IPV? 6:56 How IPV survivors differ from other crime victims11:23 Implicit biases judges or jurors might have about IPV 12:24 Types of evidence14:39 Special accommodations against intimidation16:09 Defendant as pro se counsel19:42 Preparing for direct and cross-examination23:22 Emotions, or none, during testimony26:12 Preparing for anxiety29:16 Counsel and vicarious trauma31:53 Public Interest Award and advocacy programs Quote“In the case of the pro se defendant, and dealing with that person and having to answer questions on cross, the questions may not be as pristine as an experienced or talented trial lawyer’s may be, and it may not be as controlling a situation as anticipated. If the questions are such that it allows the witness to answer more than yes or no, where’s the control?” Barbara BarronResourcesBarbara Barron (bio)Building Trial Skills: New York–Hofstra (program)Half-Day Intensives: Online (programs)
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65. Emergency Advocacy, with Judge Mark Drummond
For trial lawyers, “advocacy in a hurry” — injunctions, bail hearings, requests for orders of protection, emergency custody petitions, or immigration orders — calls for making the most of the limited time you have before the court, even if it's just 15 minutes. Former Illinois Eighth Circuit Court Judge Mark Drummond shares seven valuable tips on compressing your case to fit the time available, how to help the judge quickly understand what’s at issue in the proceeding, and what ethics concerns must remain top of mind for all advocates regardless of whether their time before the court is 10 minutes or 10 weeks. Topics3:43 What is emergency advocacy? 8:00 Circumstances calling for emergency advocacy16:48 Making the most of the little time you have17:40 Factors you must prove in your state18:30 Primacy and recency21:00 Appeal to the judge21:47 Written offer of proof23:15 Persuasive use of numbers23:53 Offer time limits27:00 Judges triage27:39 What judges fear31:02 Two things to be prepared for34:11 Your duty of candor to the court38:06 Signoff questionsQuote“You’ve spent a lot of time going through law school. You’ve built a practice. Clients will come, clients will go. You built your practice brick by brick on the decisions you’ve made, the judgments you’ve made, and the choices you’ve made. And it takes a lifetime to do that. But you know, sometimes like a child that knocks down their wooden block tower, it only takes one time to tear all that down. And no single client is worth that.” Judge Mark DrummondResourcesJudge Mark Drummond (bio)"Death Penalty Cases in a Traffic Court Setting" (article)"What Judges Want" (article)Ethical duty of candor to the court (newsletter)
If you’re a litigator or trial lawyer, your life is full—in and out of the courtroom. May the Record Reflect is the podcast of the National Institute for Trial Advocacy, and we know that if something related to lawyering is interesting to us, chances are it’s interesting to you, too. Trial skills, office life, personal development, and more—it’s all fair game on May the Record Reflect.
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