Psychologists Off the Clock

Sometimes saving the planet can feel like a massive, exhausting guilt trip.
In this episode, Debbie sits down with University of British Columbia professors Elizabeth Dunn and Jiaying Zhao to talk about their book, Leave the Lights On: How Joyful Decisions Can Save Our Species.
Their main point is about the whole "you must be perfect" climate messaging is totally backfiring, and focusing on joyful, high-impact changes is actually what keeps people motivated. Jiaying breaks down a massive 63-country study showing how scare tactics just make people want to shut down, and the duo debunks some common eco-myths.
It turns out that obsessing over turning off the lights or choosing the perfect reusable bag doesn't move the needle much. Instead, they shout out smarter, high-leverage moves like treating beef and lamb as occasional splurges, eating more plants, and traveling lighter.
They also get into how to influence the people around you by making sustainable choices easy, attractive, and non-political, proving that individual habits and big systemic changes (like voting) both matter.

Listen and Learn:
How "doom and gloom" climate messaging actually backfires by discouraging real-world action
Surprising insights from a massive global study of 60,000 participants across 63 countries
Finding joyful, climate-friendly lifestyle changes to create a positive feedback loop that makes us happier and more motivated to protect the planet
How making practical, high-impact shifts in your daily habits like smarter food choices can create a truly sustainable difference for both you and the planet
Data-backed truth behind common environmental myths and how to easily focus your energy on the daily lifestyle choices that actually make a high-impact difference for the planet
How to significantly lower your carbon footprint without sacrificing the foods you love
Reducing your carbon footprint without giving up the joy of travel by mastering the art of packing light, making smarter flight choices, and embracing the unexpected adventure of staycations
How to inspire positive behavior change in others without lecturing them on climate change
Why individual action and systemic change are not a false dichotomy, but rather a powerful partnership where local community engagement can drive larger policy shifts and boost your personal happiness

Resources:
Leave the Lights On: How Joyful Decisions Can Save Our Species
www.happyclimate.org
Book Debbie mentioned: Soil: The Story of a Black Mother's Garden, by Camille T. Dungy
Debbie’s essay about the drought in Denver, with pictures of her low-water garden: https://drdebbiesorensen.substack.com/p/drought-dispatches-from-denver

About Elizabeth Dunn
Elizabeth Dunn is Professor of Psychology at the University of British Columbia and coauthor of Happy Money. She directs UBC’s Happy Lab, which focuses on how to optimize valuable resources including time, money, and carbon to maximize human well-being. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, The Atlantic, TIME, Rolling Stone, and Harvard Business Review; and on numerous podcasts and television shows, including Hidden Brain, NPR’s Short Wave, The Happiness Lab, Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris, Morning Joe, and CBS Mornings. Dunn spoke on the TED mainstage in 2019, and her talk was selected as one of the top ten TED talks of the year.

About Jiaying Zhao
Jiaying Zhao (JZ) is Professor of Psychology and Sustainability and founded the Behavioral Sustainability Lab at the University of British Columbia, which designs and tests behavioral solutions that encourage climate action. She has worked with NASA, NOAA, and the US and Canadian Forest Service to develop pathways to net zero. Zhao has appeared on numerous podcasts and in documentary films, including Why Is This Happening? With Chris Hayes and Close the Divide. Her research has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, TIME, The Economist, Scientific American, CNN, and NBC. In 2023, Zhao gave a TED talk on climate strategies rooted in happiness, which was selected as one of the top TED Talks to be a better you in 2024.

Related Episodes:
262. Hope and Values in Dark Times with Us
255. Influence is Your Superpower with Zoe Chance
215. How to Change with Katy Milkman
371. Uniting Toward a Better Future with Diana McLain Smith
431. Ordinary Magic: Social Psychology for Big Change with Gregory Walton

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Are we being lied to about the science of attraction?
In this episode, UC Davis relationship scientist and author of Bonded by Love: The New Science of Human Attachment, Paul Eastwick, challenges the massive online narratives around "mate value," hardwired gender differences, and dating strategies. It turns out a lot of the viral relationship theories we see online are built on shaky evidence, relying on photos and surveys rather than real, live human interaction.
Paul explains why what we say we want on paper almost never predicts who we actually fall for in person. He redefines compatibility not as a rigid trait-matching algorithm, but as something unique that two people construct together over time.
If you're ready to look past the internet's rigid dating rules and see how attraction actually works in the wild, tune in.
[And if you are interested in pre-ordering Yael’s book, Why Don’t You Understand Me?, this link will take you to the larger booksellers, while THIS link will take you to her pre-order bonus form. Thank you for supporting Yael’s book launch! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeq8tfQnl1o5GvfxrIrDzeOFtIvB8E16czMKajY3B8IDy1oww/viewform]

Listen and Learn:
The "Evo script" and the popular, outdated evolutionary psychology myths that dominate modern dating advice and why the latest science challenges its assumptions about mate value, gender differences, and relationship strategies
Why popular evolutionary psychology models fail to predict real-world relationship success, and learn how relationship science reveals a far less competitive and much more hopeful reality of how we actually choose and stay with our partners
Why the way we evaluate romantic partners on paper or dating apps is completely different from how we judge them in person
The surprising scientific truth that our abstract checklists for a romantic partner rarely predict real compatibility, discovering instead how long-term satisfaction is built through shared experiences rather than finding someone who matches a mental template
How actual data debunks extreme evolutionary psychology scripts about gender differences, revealing that men and women are much more aligned in their romantic and sexual desires than popular media and online advice suggest
Why the concept of "mate value" and physical attractiveness only matter for short-term dating and initial impressions, while true long-term relationship success depends on compatibility that partners uniquely construct together rather than a predictable algorithm
How relationship satisfaction and compatibility are not predetermined by matching personality traits, but are instead actively constructed through vulnerability, open-minded interactions, and the unpredictable connections built within real-world social networks
Why platonic friendships between heterosexual men and women are not only entirely possible but also deeply enriching, mind-expanding, and a proven positive predictor for finding a romantic partner in the long run
The major drawbacks of online dating, learn why you should wait until the third date before making a decision, and find out how a "failed" date can actually help you find your next match

Resources:
Bonded by Love: The New Science of Human Attachment https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593593981
https://www.lovefactuallypod.com/
http://pauleastwick.com/pauleastwick
https://linktr.ee/pauleastwick

About Paul Eastwick
Paul Eastwick is a professor of psychology at UC Davis, where he runs the Attraction and Relationships Research Laboratory. His work sits at the intersection of evolutionary psychology, social psychology, and close relationships research, meaning he has spent his career asking why people fall for who they fall for, and whether the stories we tell ourselves about that process hold up to scientific scrutiny.
His new book, Bonded by Love: The New Science of Human Attachment, makes a sweeping argument: the dominant narrative about human mating — attraction as hierarchy, competition, genetic optimization — isn't just incomplete. It's wrong in ways that matter. The real science of how humans form lasting bonds is, if anything, more interesting and more hopeful than what we've been sold.
His research has been funded by the National Science Foundation, he sits on the editorial boards of several major psychology journals, and he has the rare combination of scientific rigor and personal candor. Paul is also the co-host of Love Factually, a podcast he runs with Northwestern relationship researcher Eli Finkel, which fact-checks Hollywood rom-coms one movie at a time (and which happens to be one of Yael’s favorite binge-listens).

Related Episodes:
63. The Ape That Understood the Universe with Steve Stewart-Williams
92. Marriage in Midlife with Daphne de Marneffe
179. How to Be an Adult in Relationships with Dave Richo
248. Let’s Talk about Sex & Intimacy with Zoë Kors
397. The Mindful Path to Intimacy with James Cordova

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For some people, stories are entertainment; for others, they can be a lifeline.
Janina Scarlet, licensed clinical psychologist, author, and founder of Divine Feminine Publishing, returns to discuss her work promoting books with strong female and gender-diverse representation. She shares how surviving illness after Chernobyl, along with physical and sexual abuse, led her to find comfort in stories and eventually become a writer.
The conversation covers the challenges of writing about personal experiences, the importance of reading widely, separating drafting from editing, and protecting creativity. Janine also talks about researching and writing her Holocaust novel, Through Bullets and Thunderstorms, based on her grandmother’s survival in Ukraine.

Listen and Learn:
How surviving childhood trauma, abuse, and the aftermath of Chernobyl shaped Janina’s drive to write, revealing how fictional characters can serve as vital support systems and how shared vulnerability allows us to step into each other's worlds to find hope and healing
How sharing our deepest, most vulnerable personal stories is an act of courage that fosters post-traumatic growth and acts as a powerful reminder to others that they are not alone
Kickstarting your writing journey by reading your target market and separating the creative writing process from the analytical editing phase
Why giving up prematurely is a beginner's biggest mistake and how learning to "embrace the mess" of an imperfect first draft is the true secret to finishing your book
How to break out of the research "bottomless pit" when writing about unfamiliar topics by leveraging interviews with experts and people with lived experience to craft authentic, deeply nuanced fiction
The raw and deeply personal story behind Janina’s book, Through Bullets and Thunderstorms: Our Holocaust Survival Pact

Resources:
Through Bullets and Thunderstorms: A Holocaust Survival Pact https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9798992940404
https://www.superhero-therapy.com/
https://divinefeminine-publishing.com/
https://writingtheother.com/
Michael’s Confidence Course https://herold.coach/course
I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780808510574
The Artist's Way https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780143129257

About Dr. Janina Scarlet
Dr. Janina Scarlet (she/her) is a licensed clinical psychologist, author, a neurodivergent, queer person with a disability, and founder of the Divine Feminine indie book publishing company. She has authored eighteen books and written chapters for twenty others.
Dr. Scarlet is the recipient of the Eleanor Roosevelt Human Rights Award from the United Nations Association. She regularly consults on books and television shows, including HBO’s Young Justice. She was also interviewed for Marvel’s MPower series and was portrayed as a comic book character in Gail Simone’s Seven Days graphic novel.
Dr. Scarlet’s goal is to promote books featuring at least 50% female and/or gender-diverse characters because when women and gender-diverse people have greater representation in fiction, it empowers them to have a stronger voice in real life.

Related Episodes
325. Unseen, Unheard, Undervalued with Janina Scarlet
275. Work parent thrive with Yael
345. Writing for Personal Growth with Maureen Murdock

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We’ve all been there: you’re scrolling through your feed, watching someone bake sourdough from scratch in a pristine linen dress, and suddenly your own life feels incredibly messy and chaotic.
In this episode of Psychologists Off the Clock, Debbie and Emily are pulling back the curtain on the hyper-curated worlds of social media influencers, reality TV, and the massive "tradwife" trend.
Grab your headphones and get ready for a much-needed reality check on why we need to be way more skeptical of what we see on our screens.

Listen and Learn:
What happened when Debbie fell down a Ballerina Farm rabbit hole
How glamorous images of the past conveniently leave out the harsh realities of history, like poverty, oppression, and environmental harm
How reality shows feed us false ideals, driving us into a spiral of social comparison and reinforcing toxic, patriarchal beauty standards
Why chasing these unrealistic lifestyles actually hurts our well-being
The rise of fear-based pseudoscience, MLMs, and totally unqualified "mental health influencers" who are just looking for clicks

Resources:
Debbie’s recent Substack post on Tradwife Influencers: https://open.substack.com/pub/drdebbiesorensen/p/trad-wife-influencers-reflections
The critique Debbie mentioned about how making cereal from scratch is a leisure class activity: https://www.tiktok.com/@professorneil/video/7339254814578150661
Maintenance Phase podcast: https://www.maintenancephase.com/
The Dream podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc28XHKS2jY

About Debbie Sorensen
Debbie (she/her) is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Denver, Colorado with a bachelor’s degree in Psychology and Anthropology from the University of Colorado, Boulder, and a Ph.D. in Psychology from Harvard University. She is author of the book ACT for Burnout: Recharge, Reconnect, and Transform Burnout with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and co-author of ACT Daily Journal: Get Unstuck and Live Fully with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. She loves living in Colorado, her home state, with her husband, two daughters, and dog. When she’s not busy working or podcasting, she enjoys reading fiction, cooking, traveling, and getting outdoors in the beautiful Rocky Mountains! You can learn more about Debbie, read her blog, and find out about upcoming presentations and training events at her webpage, drdebbiesorensen.com.

About Emily Edlynn
Emily (she/her) is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in pediatric health psychology who works in private practice with children, teens, and adults. She has a BA in English from Smith College, a PhD in clinical psychology from Loyola University Chicago, and completed postgraduate training at Stanford and Children’s Hospital Orange County. Emily spent almost ten years working in children’s hospitals before pivoting to private practice, which allowed her to start a writing career. Emily has written her blog, The Art and Science of Mom, since 2017 and a parenting advice column for Parents.com since 2019. Emily’s writing has also appeared in the Washington Post, Scary Mommy, Good Housekeeping, Motherly, and more. She recently added author to her bio with her book, Autonomy-Supportive Parenting: Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent Confident Children and has a Substack newsletter. Emily lives with her husband, three children, and two rescue dogs in Oak Park, IL where she can see Chicago’s skyline from her attic window.

Related Episodes:
295. Buyer Beware: Pseudoscience and the Wellness Industry, featuring Pooja Lakshmin
390. Raising Empowered Girls in a Sexist World with Jo-Ann Finkelstein
311. Nobody’s Fool with Daniel Simons and Christopher Chabris – Psychologists Off the Clock
307. Navigating Social Media As a Parent with Cara Goodwin
433. Rethinking Screens and Video Games with Ash Brandin
382. The Anxious Generation? The Conversation We Should Be Having About Kids, Technology, and Mental Health
429. May Contain Lies with Alex Edmans

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We’ve been told forever that women are the only natural caregivers, but neuroscience shows that’s just not true; men actually go through huge biological shifts when they become dads, too.
Sitting down with Emily for this episode is clinical psychologist Darby Saxbe, who chats to us about her book Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men’s Lives, which challenges neo-traditional assumptions about parenting roles.
Their conversation highlights the biological reality of fatherhood, exploring how men experience hormonal shifts, brain changes, and even paternal postpartum depression.
Darby also uncovers how hands-on parenting trends are shifting across generations, the connection between relationship conflict and a dad's mental health, and how policy changes like paid paternity leave can transform modern family dynamics.

Listen and Learn:
How the modern science of fatherhood rewrites traditional gender roles, why the "Dad Brain" is biologically wired for caregiving, and how millennial and Gen Z fathers are redefining the rewards and divides of modern parenting
The concept of "facultative adaptation" and how it shapes the natural variability of fatherhood
How a father's brain and body prepare for parenthood during pregnancy
How a couple’s relationship conflict during pregnancy can directly impact the labor and delivery experience
Why the prenatal period is a critical window for couples to proactively strengthen their communication, navigate relationship shifts, and better manage the stress and emotional toll of childbirth and early parenthood
The ways postpartum depression manifests in new dads
How a father's hormone levels naturally drop after birth and why high testosterone can unexpectedly strain romantic relationships and parenting
The unique benefits of the father-child relationship
Why we need to view men's mental health through a family lens
How progressive policy shifts are working to empower and destigmatize active fatherhood

Resources:
Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men’s Lives https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781250387523
Darby’s Website: https://www.darbysaxbe.com
Darby’s Substack: https://darbysaxbe.substack.com
Connect with Darby on Social Media:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/darbysaxbe
https://www.instagram.com/darbysaxbephd/
Behind Every Dad Bod is a Healthy Dad Brain https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/06/opinion/dad-brain-health-fatherhood.html

About Darby Saxbe
Darby Saxbe, PhD, is a clinical psychologist and tenured full professor of psychology at the University of Southern California.
She has published over eighty scientific articles in peer-reviewed journals and secured major research grants from the National Institutes of Health and National Science Foundation. She earned awards from the American Psychological Association and the Society for Research in Child Development and was a Fulbright fellow. Dr. Saxbe received her PhD in clinical psychology from UCLA and her BA in English and psychology from Yale University.
Her research focuses on the transition to parenthood, particularly the neural and hormonal underpinnings of fatherhood. She integrates neuroscience and psychology to explore how close connections shape health and wellbeing.
When she is not doing research, she hangs out with her husband and two kids, plays guitar in an all-mom indie rock band, and writes the Substack newsletter, Natal Gazing. She was a mediocre contestant on the show Who Wants to Be A Millionaire and recently lost a chili cookoff.

Related Episodes:
446. Cognitive Household Labor with Allison Daminger
445. The Unexpected Magic of Caring with Elissa Strauss
361. Dudes and Dads: Men’s Mental Health with Danny Singley
206. Fair Play Part 2 with Eve Rodsky
176. Fair Play with Eve Rodsky

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