Psychologists Off the Clock

After 10 years and 484 episodes, Psychologists Off the Clock is saying goodbye. In this special final episode, all five co-hosts—Debbie Sorensen, Yael Schonbrun, Jill Stoddard, Michael Herold, and Emily Edlynn—come together for one last conversation about the podcast, the decision to end it, and what comes next.
The co-hosts pull back the curtain on the realities of running a psychology podcast, from the time, money, and behind-the-scenes work involved to the changing economics of podcast sponsorship. They share why, after a decade of meaningful conversations about psychological science, they decided it was the right time to close this chapter rather than compromise the depth and quality of the show.
But this episode is about much more than saying goodbye. The hosts reflect on their favorite memories, the books and research that shaped their thinking, the professional growth that came from interviewing experts, and the friendships and unexpected connections that made the experience so meaningful. Along the way, they share funny behind-the-scenes stories, reflect on the impact of connecting listeners with evidence-based psychology, and reveal some of the surprising ways podcasting changed their lives—including one love story that began with a listener reaching out.
They also look ahead to what's next, sharing updates on their individual projects, new podcasts, books, writing, and clinical work.
Although this is the final planned episode of Psychologists Off the Clock, the archive of 484 episodes will remain available, so you can revisit old favorites or discover conversations you may have missed. And who knows? The hosts haven't ruled out a surprise bonus episode someday.
Most of all, this episode is a heartfelt thank-you to the listeners, guests, sponsors, production team, and colleagues who made the past 10 years possible. It's a celebration of curiosity, connection, evidence-based psychology, and the power of sharing what we learn with one another.
In this episode, you'll hear about:
Why the co-hosts decided to end Psychologists Off the Clock now, after 10 years of podcasting
The realities of producing and sustaining an independent psychology podcast
The professional, personal, and relational rewards of podcasting
Memorable moments and behind-the-scenes stories
How the show helped spread evidence-based psychological science to listeners around the world
What each co-host is working on next
Where to find psychology podcasts to explore after POTC, and why you might consider quitting your job to listen to our 484-episode archive, which will remain available!

Thank you for being part of the Psychologists Off the Clock community! It's been a privilege to share the science and stories of psychology with you. We hope you'll keep learning, stay curious, and continue finding ways to bring psychological science into your everyday life.
Keep up with your POTC cohosts here:
DEBBIE SORENSEN
Website: www.drdebbiesorensen.com
Books:
ACT for Burnout: Recharge, Reconnect, and Transform Burnout with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
ACT Daily Journal: Get Unstuck and Live Fully with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
Social Media:
Substack: https://drdebbiesorensen.substack.com/ (Subscribe to read Debbie's personal essays)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbie-sorensen/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdebbiesorensen/
Debbie will be joining Insight Timer with some content on burnout, ACT, midlife, and guided journaling. Stay tuned for that, coming soon!

EMILY EDLYNN
Website: https://www.emilyedlynnphd.com/
Books:
Autonomy-Supportive Parenting: Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent, Confident Children
In Your Feels: A Journal to Work Out Your Emotions (for kids)
Social Media:
Substack: https://substack.com/@emilyedlynn1
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-edlynn-phd-0610072/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dremilyedlynn/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EmilyEdlynn
Interested in working with Emily? Therapy and Parent Coaching Info!

MICHAEL HEROLD
Website: https://herold.coach
New Podcast: Mind Brew with Janina Scarlet and Michael Herold - coming soon!
Social media: @michael_herold_coach
New Podcast Social Media: @mindbrewjam (coming soon!)

YAEL SCHONBRUN
Website: https://www.yaelschonbrun.com/
Books
Why Don’t You Understand Me?: The Surprising Science Behind Connecting in a World of Missed Signals
Work, Parent, Thrive: 12 Science-Backed Strategies to Ditch Guilt, Manage Overwhelm, and Grow Connection (When Everything Feels Like too Much)
Social media
Substack: https://relationalriffs.substack.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yaelschonbrun/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yaelschonbrun/

JILL STODDARD
Website: https://jillstoddard.com/
New Podcast: We the Sunlight
Books:
Imposter No More: Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to Cultivate a Successful Career
Be Mighty: A Woman's Guide to Liberation from Anxiety, Worry, and Stress Using Mindfulness and Acceptance
The Big Book of ACT Metaphors: A Practitioner's Guide to Experiential Exercises and Metaphors in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
Social media:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillstoddardphd/?isSelfProfile=true
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@jillstoddardphd

Recommended Podcasts:
NEW PODCASTS BY OUR CO-HOSTS
Michael’s new podcast: Mind Brew with Janina Scarlet and Michael Herold - coming soon!
Jill’s new podcast: We the Sunlight with Jill Stoddard: a true-crime-meets-psychology show exploring what happens when people have the courage to speak out even when the stakes are high.

PSYCHOLOGY PODCASTS
People Soup with Ross McIntosh: hear real conversations about work, leadership and being human, grounded in behavioural science, with practical ideas you can actually use.
Mentally Flexible with Thomas Parkes
Life’s Dirty Little Secrets with Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry
Behavioral Grooves with Kurt Nelson and Tim Houlihan
Wise Effort with our former cohost and cofounder, Diana Hill
Playing-It-Safe with Patricia Zurita Ona
Well, hello anxiety podcast with Jodi Richardson
That’s What She Said with Robin Buckley: That’s What She Said is where women’s wisdom takes the mic. It centers real women, real stories, and the lessons women earn by actually living their lives.
Spill Your Guts with Jenn Staples. A skills-focused podcast providing evidence-based strategies for a variety of mental health issues.
The Type C Personality Podcast
Pause Purpose Play with Michaela Thomas is ideal for burned out women with (and without) ADHD
Midlife Reclaimed podcast with Shannon Swales - perfect for burnout out women in midlife
Ask Lisa: Untangling Family Life, a parenting podcast with Lisa Damour
The Courageous Life with Joshua Steinfeldt
Superpsyched with Adam Dorsay
Getting to Yes And with Kelly Leonard

OTHER PODCASTS
Maintenance Phase: Takes on the science of “wellness” trends
If Books Could Kill: Dissects “airport books,” many of which would fall into the psychology self-help category

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It’s a big week for one of the Psychologists Off the Clock! In this episode, all of the POTC cohosts come together to interview Yael about her brand new book, Why Don’t You Understand Me?: The Surprising Science Behind Connecting in a World of Missed Signals.
Yael explains that misunderstanding is mainly a perception problem, not just a broadcasting problem, which is why someone can say exactly the right words and still be misunderstood. She discusses some counter intuitive findings from psychology research, and offers ideas like “generous understanding,” that can help us understand each other better, even in challenging circumstances.
Yael's book has the potential to change your life, and maybe even the world, for the better. Join us for this conversation, and hear the POTC team talk all about it!
Listen and Learn:
Why misunderstanding is more of a perception problem than a broadcasting problem, and the difference between communication (something that happens between people) and understanding (something that happens within them)
How a stalled book about the kibbutz turned into this one, thanks to a family walk and a husband who said “Yeah, write that book”
Why overconfidence is the one bias that rules all the others, and why therapists with “healthy professional self-doubt” build stronger alliances
What the invisible gorilla study reveals beyond inattentional blindness (spoiler: we’re sure we’d see it next time, and we still don’t), plus Debbie’s inside scoop on where that gorilla suit came from
The closeness communication bias: why we’re about as accurate with the people we love as with strangers, but far more confident
The difference between “Do I understand you?” and “Do you feel understood?” and why the second question matters so much with kids, teens, and partners
How humor’s “simultaneity” lets two things be true at once, so nobody has to surrender their view to take in someone else’s
Why you might actually want to go to bed angry, and how hunger, fatigue, and stress quietly distort how we read other people
How irreverence, from Barbara Walters to Marsha Linehan’s DBT, can leave people feeling more understood than gentleness alone
Why validation isn’t agreement, with lessons from suicide prevention and FBI hostage negotiation
Generous understanding: what the prisoner’s dilemma teaches us about being a little more generous than feels fair in noisy relationships
How a detective’s compassionate approach to a serial killer yielded five murder confessions, and why understanding is not an obligation when safety is at stake
Three tips for bridging political divides: complicate your story, separate people from their views, and share the project
What to do when you’re doing all the understanding work and the other person isn’t
Resources:
Why Don’t You Understand Me?: The Surprising Science Behind Connecting in a World of Missed Signals by Yael Schonbrun (audiobook narrated by Yael and can be purchased here)
Yael’s Substack, Relational Riffs [link]
“Understanding Is Not an Obligation” on Relational Riffs [link]
Yael on Instagram and LinkedIn: @yaelschonbrun
The Invisible Gorilla and Nobody’s Fool by Christopher Chabris and Daniel Simons
Mindwise and A Little More Social by Nicholas Epley
Validation by Caroline Fleck
A Hunger to Kill by Kim Mager & Lisa Pulitzer
Outraged by Kurt Gray
High Conflict by Amanda Ripley
Amanda Ripley’s New York Times piece on “necessary conversations.”
Stalling for Time by Gary Noesner
Give and Take by Adam Grant (for “otherish” giving)
About Yael Schonbrun
Yael Schonbrun, PhD, is a clinical psychologist and couples therapist in private practice and a clinical assistant professor of psychiatry and human behavior at Brown University. Her research specialization in relationship cognition, how people perceive one another, informs her clinical work helping couples get unstuck. She is the author of Work, Parent, Thrive and Why Don’t You Understand Me?, writes the Substack newsletter Relational Riffs, and contributes regularly to The Washington Post, with bylines in The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. She has co-hosted Psychologists Off the Clock for many years.
Related Episodes:
82. Therapist Self Doubt with Jim Lucas
275. Work, Parent, Thrive with Yael Schonbrun
311. Nobody’s Fool with Daniel Simons and Chris Chabris
392. Outraged with Kurt Gray
403. Conflict Resilience with Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas
408. Connecting Like a Hostage Negotiator with Gary Noesner
413.Validate with Caroline Fleck
422. Mindwise with Nicholas Epley
452. How to Disagree Better with Julia Minson
456. High Conflict with Amanda Ripley
461. A Little More Social with Nicholas Epley

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When was the last time you looked in the mirror and could not say who was looking back at you?
Ceri Samvilian joins Michael for his final episode of Psychologists Off the Clock, recorded in the Vienna living room where the two of them met ten years ago. Ceri moved from Nairobi to Vienna at 27 and spent years playing what she calls the role of a good immigrant. Speak German properly, do not be too loud, stay in the box. She only saw the cost later, when she realized she had suppressed herself in order to be accepted. The turning point arrived as a question in the mirror on an ordinary morning. Who are you now?
They also get into the Saturday afternoon that changed things for both of them. Ceri had prepared a seven-minute talk about dropping the mask, then watched her cue cards leave on the train without her. She cried in Michael's bathroom, rewrote the whole thing from memory, and gave the talk anyway. From there she gets practical about journaling as a standing habit rather than an emergency tool, and about the three stages she now takes clients through. Reignite, reconnect, redesign.
Listen and Learn:
Why moving countries changes who you are and not only where you live
How the masks we wear to fit in start out as protection and end up as suppression
What happens when accommodating everyone else finally runs out, and why Ceri's limit arrived with her second child
Why the three questions Deepak Chopra raised in that Oprah interview are worth living with for a year instead of answering on the spot
How journaling works better as a habit than as an emergency tool, and why writing an idea down protects it from other people's opinions
What a mirror moment is, and how Ceri turned hers into the reignite, reconnect and redesign stages she uses with clients
Why a stronger net of friends lets you dare more, and how a simple signal makes it easier to ask for help as an adult
Resources:
Website: www.cerisamvilian.com
Ceri on Facebook
Ceri on Instagram
Ceri on LinkedIn
Elizabeth Gilbert - Big Magic
Ceri’s book "Journal and discover your authentic self"
Mind brew - A psychology podcast with Dr. Janina Scarlet and Michael Herold

About Ceri Samvilian
Ceri Samvilian is a Certified Life Coach and Author specializing in identity reconstruction for women. As the creator of The Phoenix Awakening, she has guided hundreds of women to rediscover themselves and redesign their lives. Ceri is a keynote speaker who has spoken to over 300 audiences across Europe. She is also a board member of NIWA (Network of International Women in Austria) and the author of the book Journal and Discover Your Authentic Self. Her mission is to liberate one million women from the belief that choosing themselves is selfish.
Related Episodes
173. Confidence, Self-Doubt, and Overcoming Limitations with Michael Herold
454. Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead with Michael Herold
428. How to Fall in Love with Questions with Elizabeth Weingarten
351. You Only Die Once with Jodi Wellman
457. Tiny Experiments with Anne-Laure Le Cunff

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

For her last episode without her co-hosts, Debbie wanted to choose a topic that matters to her personally: existentialism and the search for meaning. She invited her “dream team” panel of colleagues with an interest in existentialism from the ACT community: Robyn Walser, Jim Lucas, Jenna LeJeune, and Jennifer Gregg.
Existentialism invites us to enhance our lives through exploration of life’s truths: we will die, we are free to make choices, and we must all create our own sense of meaning and purpose. Through grappling with the big questions of life, we can become more engaged, intentional, and present in the lives we have.
In this episode, our panelists discuss existential ideas like freedom and responsibility, living with death awareness, transcendence, and why vitality includes the painful parts of life as well as the joyful ones. They discuss the pressure of a culture that pushes us to optimize everything, and they close with an invitation to join in the “grand exploration” of life.
Listen and Learn:
How existentialism grew out of a response to absurdity, and why it helps us question rules that don’t make sense.
The balance between freedom and responsibility, and why owning your choices can be both scary and liberating.
How awareness of the finite nature of life gives weight to our values.
Why vitality means tasting the whole experience, including “the rotten part of the apple,” and not only the joyful part.
Self-transcendence, and the importance of contributing to something greater than yourself.
Why suffering can be seen as a teacher, instead of a problem to be solved.
How meaning and hope differ, and why a meaningful life doesn’t depend on a better future.
How to hold both the “I” and the interconnected “we” in values work.
How cultural pressure to be productive can pull us away from what’s truly meaningful.

Resources:
Robyn Walser’s book Acceptance and Commitment Therapy: Deliberate Practice to Develop and Enhance Skills in ACT
Jenna LeJeune’s book Values in Therapy: A Clinician’s Guide to Helping Clients Explore Values, Increase Psychological Flexibility, and Live a More Meaningful Life

About the Panelists:
Robyn D. Walser, Ph.D., is an internationally recognized clinical psychologist, educator, and author. She is the Director of Trauma and Life Consultation and Psychology Services, Assistant Professor at the University of California, Berkeley, and Director of Research at Bay Area Trauma Recovery Clinical Services. Dr. Walser has contributed significantly to the dissemination of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and held a pivotal role in implementing ACT in one of the US's largest national healthcare systems. Her work largely focuses on trauma recovery. A writer and scholar, Dr. Walser has co-authored nine influential books on ACT, including the Heart of ACT: Developing a Flexible, Process-Based, and Client-Centered Practice Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Deliberate Practice to Develop and Enhance Skills in ACT. She recently released a self-help book on ACT called You Are Not Your Trauma. Her research and clinical expertise have made her a sought-after voice in advancing the application of ACT to address a variety of complex psychological challenges. Since 1997, Dr. Walser has led ACT workshops worldwide, bringing her passion for process-based, experiential learning to therapists and clinicians. Known for her compassionate, client-centered approach, Dr. Walser’s teaching emphasizes integrating evidence-based practices with human connection and flexibility.
This is Robyn’s EIGHTH appearance on Psychologists Off the Clock! You can hear her previous episodes here:
320. Anger and Forgiveness with Robyn Walser
416. Trauma and PTSD Treatment with Robyn Walser
138. Exploring Existence and Purpose: Existentialism with Robyn Walser
133. Mental Health in the Age of COVID-19 with Robyn Walser
106. Therapy from “The Heart of ACT” with Robyn Walser
98. Narcissism with Avigail Lev and Robyn Walser
49. Empowering Women with Robyn Walser

Jenna LeJeune, Ph.D. is President and co-founder of Portland Psychotherapy Clinic, Research and Training Center in Portland, Oregon. She is also a researcher and study therapist at the Portland Institute for Psychedelic Science. Both in her clinical practice as a licensed psychologist and in her work with psychedelics, Jenna is deeply interested in issues related to meaning, purpose, belonging, and values. Jenna specializes in using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) to help those she serves connect with what is most meaningful so that they are able to live lives of purpose and integrity even in the midst of suffering. She is the co-author of the book Values in Therapy: A Clinician's Guide to Helping Clients Explore Values, Increase Psychological Flexibility, and Live a More Meaningful Life as well as numerous other book chapters, journal articles, and other publications. Jenna is also a Fellow of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science and a peer-reviewed ACT trainer and provides ACT trainings for professionals around the world.
Jenna previously appeared on Psychologists Off the Clock for episode 116: Building a Meaningful, Values-based Life with Jenna LeJeune

Jennifer Gregg is a professor of Psychology at San Jose State University and a licensed clinical psychologist. She specializes in Psycho-Oncology and end of life care, and has been researching, delivering, and training professions in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) since 1995. She has written dozens of scholarly articles and three books for the public on ACT, and is a peer-reviewed ACT trainer. She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area where she helps cancer patients and their families live amazing lives with difficult medical illnesses.
Although this was Jen’s first time on the podcast, she has been with us in spirit, and we’ve discussed two of her books on the podcast previously with her co-author. You can check those episodes out here: 181. Stop Avoiding Stuff with Matt Boone and 469. ACT Refresher with Matt Boone

Jim Lucas has been an ACBS Peer-reviewed ACT Trainer, Consultant, Supervisor, Author and Therapist since 2003. Jim has helped 1000s of practitioners integrate Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) into their therapeutic toolkit. As one of the founding presenters of the legendary Birmingham ACT Week back in 2015, Jim has since trained therapists, psychologists, counsellors, social workers, physiotherapists, and other allied health professionals in this powerful approach to behaviour change. Now, through the Openforwards ACT Learning Centre, Jim helps practitioners worldwide to build their expertise and optimise their clinical impact.
Jim previously joined us on the podcast for episode 82: Therapist Self Doubt with Jim Lucas

Related Episodes:
138. Exploring Existence and Purpose: Existentialism with Robyn Walser
116. Building a Meaningful, Values-based Life with Jenna LeJeune
375. Midlife: From Crisis to Curiosity with Meg McKelvie and Debbie Sorensen
242. Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management with Oliver Burkeman
351. You Only Die Once with Jodi Wellman
285. What Do You Want Out of Life? Values Fulfillment Theory with Valerie Tiberius

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Listen and Learn:
Why genes, like environments, tilt the playing field without determining the outcome, and what a cloned Texas bull named Second Chance (who gored his owners, unlike the sweet original) teaches us about genetic determinism
Why "What if you'd had my childhood?" invites sympathy while "What if you'd had my genome?" feels like an identity threat, and how DNA has become our modern "essence placeholder"
What the Lindsay Clancy and Andrea Yates cases reveal about the limits of our victim/perpetrator binary, and why our legal system and moral intuitions struggle when someone is both
How punishment shows up across the natural world, from paper wasp queens who get deposed for eating too many of their sisters' eggs to fig trees that shrivel the fruit of lazy pollinators
Why our retributive drive is deeply "baked into the evolutionary sauce," and why simply understanding the free will problem won't make it disappear
Durkheim's argument that a society without crime would be neither possible nor desirable, and how deviance drives moral innovation
Why accountability has become collapsed with punishment, in criminal justice and in modern parenting debates, and what a "third way" might look like
How the Norwegian response to Anders Breivik reframes the question from "Does this person deserve punishment?" to "How do we treat someone who has done something terrible and is still one of us?"
Why dehumanizing others degrades the punisher as well as the punished, and how service-based consequences might replace immiseration
Resources:
Kathryn Paige Harden's website: https://www.kpharden.com
Original Sin by Kathryn Paige Harden
Why Don't You Understand Me?: The Surprising Science Behind Connecting in a World of Missed Signals by Yael Schonbrun
Form to get pre-order bonuses for Why Don't You Understand Me?
Yael's favorite true crime podcasts:
Beyond All Repair
Love Trapped
The Dropout
Serial
Dr. Death
One of Us: The Story of a Massacre in Norway and Its Aftermath by Åsne Seierstad
The View From Nowhere by Thomas Nagel
"What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" by Thomas Nagel
Outraged by Kurt Gray

About Kathryn Paige Harden
Kathryn Paige Harden is a professor of clinical psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, where she leads the Developmental Behavior Genetics Lab, studying how kids' and teens' DNA sequences and epigenomes interact with their environments to shape thought, feeling, and behavior. She earned her PhD in clinical psychology from the University of Virginia and trained clinically at McLean Hospital, Harvard Medical School. Her first book, The Genetic Lottery, argued that genetics matters for social equality and made her one of the most debated scientists writing for a general audience. Her new book, Original Sin, is part memoir, part behavioral genetics primer, and part philosophical reckoning with her own evangelical upbringing, arguing that the question of why people do terrible things cannot be answered by nature or nurture alone.
Related Episodes:
392. Outraged with Kurt Gray
434. How Trust Works with Peter H. Kim
438. The Hypocrisy Trap with Michael Hallsworth
430. Nonadaptive Guilt and Shame with Carolyn Allard
476. Why We Ask Why with Tania Lombrozo
467. Bonded by Evolution with Paul Eastwick

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.