The Long Game with Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer

Dan Wang, author of Breakneck, breaks down the divide between China’s “engineering state” and America’s “lawyerly society” and what that means for the future of U.S.-China competition.

Wang joined Jake and Jon before a live audience at the Endless Frontiers conference in Austin, Texas.

In this episode:

- Why China builds at scale and why the U.S. often struggles to keep up

- The strengths and limits of China’s model, from manufacturing to social policy

- A closer look at Xi Jinping’s leadership and decision-making

- Why “process knowledge” is key to rebuilding American capacity

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Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

Show notes are available here. Transcript coming soon.

Join us on Substack. Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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H.R. McMaster and Matt Pottinger, former National Security Adviser and Deputy National Security Adviser to President Trump in his first administration, join Jake and Jon for a wide-ranging conversation on Iran, China, and how national security decisions get made at the highest level.

Drawing on their time in the White House, they debate the decision to go to war with Iran, the nature of Iran’s nuclear program, and what a successful outcome would even look like. As McMaster puts it, “a lot of times you’re looking at the least bad option.”

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. 

New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

Show notes are available here.

Transcript coming soon.

Join us on Substack.

Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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Former Secretary of State John Kerry, who has spent more time negotiating with Iranian leaders than anyone, joins Jake and Jon to discuss the marathon diplomacy efforts that resulted in the JCPOA, Trump’s decision to strike Iran, the likelihood of a deal, the prospects for a two state solution between Israel and Palestinians, and the future of the U.S.-Israel relationship. Then, Jake and Jon discuss Prime Minister Viktor Orban’s surprising defeat in Hungary’s election and what his loss means for the MAGA movement, Trump’s relationship to Europe’s far right, and Ukraine.  

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

For show notes and transcripts, find and follow us on Substack.

Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Photo credit: Thomas Imo/Photothek via Getty Images
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Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer break down the ceasefire between the United States and Iran, announced Tuesday evening. 

They walk through how the deal came together from President Trump’s escalating rhetoric to Pakistan’s role as an unlikely intermediary and assess what the ceasefire actually is, and what it isn’t.

They also break down the deeper questions about what the U.S. achieved, what Iran gained, and how this reshapes the strategic balance going forward.

Topics discussed:


What the ceasefire includes and address the major gaps that remain


Why Iran’s control over the Strait of Hormuz may be the most important outcome of the war


What could come out of the upcoming negotiations, including the future of Iran’s nuclear stockpile


The impact of the war on U.S. deterrence, military readiness, and global credibility


The broader implications for Russia, China, NATO, and the U.S.-Israel relationship

At the end of the episode, Jake and Jon open up the Long Game mailbag for the first time, answering listener questions on targeted assassinations, Russia’s status as a great power, what’s next for Cuba, and why they started the podcast after leaving the government.

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

Show notes are available here.

Transcript available here.

Join us on Substack. Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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One month into the war with Iran, President Trump addressed the nation in prime time — but instead of clarity, the same big questions remain about how this war ends. This week, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer break down what the president said, what he didn’t say, and what it reveals about where this war is heading. They then take on a Red Team / Blue Team exercise: Jon argues to Iran’s leadership that it should take the deal; Jake makes the hardline case that Iran should stand firm and let America suffer.

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

For show notes and transcripts, find and follow us on Substack.

Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Photo credit: Photographer: Alex Brandon/AP Photo/Bloomberg via Getty Images
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