Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast

In 2004, Wells Fargo’s internal audit flagged a problem: employees felt they couldn’t hit sales targets without gaming the system.
The scandal broke 12 years later.
Two million fake accounts.
Thousands fired.
Billions in fines.
No one set out to commit fraud.
They optimized for the metric.
In this Sharp Cut, we break down Goodhart’s Law — when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure — and show how the same pattern is operating inside marketing departments right now.
We examine:
Why CTR has near-zero correlation with brand growth (Nielsen, LinkedIn, Tracksuit data)
How short-term ROAS creates long-term decline (Binet & Field)
Why agency compensation structures reward activity over effectiveness
The MQL trap in B2B
The “cheap CPM” illusion and the cost of dull media

And then we offer a prescription:
How to redesign your metrics so they can’t be gamed.
How to pair opposing indicators.
How to measure mental vs physical availability.
How to ensure your dashboard actually changes decisions.

This is not a rant about bad marketers.
It’s a structural critique of broken incentive systems.
Because marketing doesn’t drift by accident.
It drifts because incentives are misaligned.

Episode 1 of a three part series.

Key Takeaways:
Incentives can lead to unintended consequences in marketing.
Goodhart's Law highlights the dangers of misaligned metrics.
Wells Fargo's scandal exemplifies the risks of poor incentive structures.
Digital advertising metrics often fail to correlate with brand outcomes.
Short-term ROAS focus can deplete future demand.
Agency compensation models may incentivize spending over effectiveness.
MQL culture can overwhelm sales with low-quality leads.
Cheap impressions may not translate to real engagement.
Marketers should audit metrics for potential gaming.
Effective measurement requires aligning metrics with business goals.

Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
02:47 - The Wells Fargo Scandal: A Case Study
05:50 - Understanding Goodhart's Law
09:00 - The Metrics Trap: Digital Advertising Insights
12:01 - The Short-Term ROAS Trap
14:54 - Agency Compensation and MQL Culture
17:58 - The Importance of Metrics and Accountability
20:59 - Recap and Final Thoughts

Welcome back to The Sleeping Barber Podcast — and to the Barber’s Brief, where Marc and V step into the shop, sweep up the last couple weeks of headlines, and figure out what’s actually worth keeping (and what belongs in the bin).
In this episode, we break down four stories shaping marketing right now:
PepsiCo’s creator-led “Flavor Swap” drop (and why TikTok Shop is turning distribution into the strategy)
Traditional search vs. the “age of answers” (SEO → AEO, and what it means to be trusted by machines, not just ranked by Google)
Live sports on streaming (why sports is becoming the centerpiece of streaming ecosystems and ad-supported growth)
Unilever’s “big brand ads are over” claim (and why it’s really an “and” story — not an “either/or”)

Then, for Ad of the Week, we revisit one of the most iconic campaigns ever: Cadbury’s Drumming Gorilla — the ad that almost never aired… and became a masterclass in selling a feeling.
If you’re new here: this isn’t a news recap. It’s context — what’s changing, who benefits, and what it means for marketers trying to navigate platform mood swings.
Episode Takeaways
PepsiCo is leveraging creators to connect with Gen Z.
The traditional search model is being replaced by AI-driven answers.
Brands must adapt to the zero-click economy to maintain visibility.
Sports content is surging on streaming platforms, creating new advertising opportunities.
The era of big brand ads is evolving towards more agile, localized storytelling.
Emotional connections in advertising can significantly enhance brand perception.
The Cadbury Gorilla ad exemplifies the power of creative storytelling in marketing.
Brands need to balance long-term consistency with fast-paced content creation.
The importance of being a trusted source for AI-driven search results is growing.
Marketing strategies must evolve to meet changing consumer behaviors and preferences.

Chapters
00:00 - Introduction
02:44 - PepsiCo's Innovative Creator-Led Product Launch
04:11 - The Shift from Traditional Search to the Age of Answers
11:11 - The Rise of Sports Content on Streaming Platforms
16:29 - The Evolution of Brand Advertising in the Digital Age
20:44 -Throwback: The Iconic Cadbury Gorilla Ad

In this episode of the Sleeping Barber podcast, Marc and Vassilis discuss the challenges of programmatic advertising, focusing on misconceptions around last click attribution, the pitfalls of hyper-targeting, and the limitations of traditional marketing personas.
They explore the importance of integrating paid and organic search strategies, the need for broader audience targeting, and the significance of creative strategies in brand recognition.
The conversation emphasizes the value of first-party data and the necessity of continuous testing and learning to drive growth in marketing efforts.
Key Takeaways
Programmatic advertising is often misunderstood as solely a performance targeting tool.
Last click attribution can mislead marketers about their campaign effectiveness.
Hyper-targeting can inflate costs and lead to wasted ad spend.
Traditional personas may limit audience reach and effectiveness.
A broader audience targeting approach can yield better results.
Creative strategies should focus on brand recognition without relying solely on logos.
First-party data is crucial for effective audience targeting.
Over-optimizing for digital metrics can hinder overall growth.
Continuous testing and learning are essential for marketing success.
Managing audience suppression is key to effective targeting strategies.

Chapters
00:00 - Introduction to Programmatic Advertising Challenges
03:02 - The Misconception of Last Click Attribution
06:11 - The One Search Strategy: Integrating Paid and Organic
09:02 - The Hyper-Targeting Trap
12:02 - The Limitations of Personas in Marketing
15:11 - Audience Targeting: A Broader Approach
18:01 - Creative Strategies and Brand Recognition
21:07 - The Importance of First-Party Data
24:13 - Navigating the Dashboard Disconnect
27:11 - Testing and Learning for Growth

Overview
The promise of digital advertising was precision: right message, right person, right time. No waste. But here's the uncomfortable truth, while we've been obsessing over hyper-targeting, consumer behaviour has already shifted without us. 90% of Canadians now consume CTV. Less than 50% still have cable. And 60% of their time is spent on the open web, not walled gardens.
The question isn't whether CTV matters. It's whether we're measuring it correctly, or optimizing ourselves into invisibility.
About Vince is the Head of DSP Sales at Yahoo Canada, where he works closely with the country's top agencies and brands to achieve their marketing goals through Yahoo's advanced programmatic advertising platform. A 25+ year advertising veteran, Vince has deep expertise in programmatic, CTV, and data-driven media. He previously launched AdTheorent in the Canadian market and is an active voice in the Canadian digital advertising community through IAB Canada.
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/vincesimone

Timestamps
00:00 - Intro - The unification challenge for marketers
01:25 - Guest intro - Vince Simone, Yahoo
02:32 - What's different about this moment in CTV
04:05 - The evolution of CTV data - from freebie to foundational
06:04 - TV is now just "video" - the pipe goes everywhere
08:01 - Programmatic as the unifier - Samba partnership
10:01 - The cost waterfall problem - fraud, duplication, inefficiency
12:17 - What people misunderstand about DSPs (it's decisioning, not bidding)
13:37 - Buzzword that needs to die: "Hyper-target"
15:22 - The promise of digital vs. the reality of reach
17:05 - Reverse engineering the customer journey
18:52 - Is CTV actually about scale, not precision?
20:21 - The persona trap - seeing people as fractions of themselves
24:23 - Suppression lists vs. over-engineered targeting
29:07 - Consistency as the multiplier across linear, CTV, digital
31:18 - Dynamic creative optimization vs. many cuts
34:00 - The 60/40 split - CTV in no man's land
37:15 - The one metric to stop obsessing about: Last click
39:07 - How the best marketers layer MMMs, lift studies, and last click
42:10 - The "remove the logo" test for distinctiveness
44:22 - Over-optimizing before campaigns settle
46:00 - Dashboard updates vs. business data timing
46:56 - What excites Vince: AI agents, Netflix inventory, unified systems
49:20 - Where to find Vince
Show Links
Sleeping Barber Podcast: 8 Fundamentals of Effective Marketing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlJVEd9YXag&list=PL8Dcu1vikGN38ABGV4iuRQV1GmaAMvUSQ&index=1
Yahoo DSP: https://www.yahooinc.com/our-solutions
IAB Data Label: https://iabtechlab.com/press-releases/iab-tech-lab-finalizes-data-transparency-standard-compliance-program-to-advance-data-collection-best-practices
ANA Programmatic Transparency Benchmark https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/pr-2025-08-programmatictrans

In this conversation, Vassilis Douros and Marc Binkley delve into the complexities of measuring ROI in marketing. They discuss common misconceptions about ROI, ROAS, and MER, emphasizing that these metrics often lead marketers to focus on short-term efficiency rather than long-term effectiveness.
The duo highlights the importance of collaboration across teams to ensure that marketing promises align with operational capabilities, ultimately driving sustainable growth. They advocate for a shift in focus from mere ratios to understanding the broader implications of marketing investments on future cash flow and customer relationships.
If you’re being measured purely on short-term efficiency metrics, this conversation will change how you think about growth.
ROI isn’t a marketing number. It’s a team sport.
Takeaways
ROI is often misunderstood as a measure of efficiency rather than effectiveness.
Chasing high ROI can lead to short-term thinking and limit growth.
Marketing success requires collaboration across teams, not just within marketing.
The promise to the customer must be memorable, valuable, and deliverable.
Focusing solely on financial ratios can obscure the true health of a brand.
Long-term ROI is built on consistent delivery of promises to customers.
Marketing should be viewed as a growth driver, not a cost center.
Incrementality is crucial to understanding the true impact of marketing efforts.
Operational efficiency is key to fulfilling marketing promises.
Winning in marketing is a team sport, requiring alignment across departments.

Chapters
00:00 - Understanding ROI in Marketing
03:00 - The Dangers of Chasing High ROI
05:57 - The Importance of Team Collaboration
09:55 - The Promise to the Customer
11:58 - Shifting Focus from Ratios to Revenue

Sources:
Ambler, T. (2000). Marketing Metrics. Business Strategy Review, 11(2), 59-66.
Binkley, M. (2024). 35 Factors that Affect Marketing ROI. Quatical Fractional Marketing Leadership.
B2B Institute & WARC. (2024). Making a Promise to the Business Customer: Why Customer Promise Campaigns are Even More Effective in B2B than B2C. LinkedIn.
Calgary Marketing Association & Stone-Olafson. (2024). Shaping Success: Alberta's Marketing Landscape and the Trends Influencing ROI.
Duhigg, C. (2012). The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business. Random House.
Kaushik, A. (2023). The Best Marketing ROI Formula: Incremental Net Profit ROI!. Occam's Razor.
Martin, R., & B2B Institute. (2023). Making a Promise to...