Vernon Richards and Richard Bradshaw discuss all things software testing, quality engineering and life in the world of software development. Plus our own person...
How Testers Can Thrive in CI/CD Without Being Gatekeepers
In this episode of the Vernon Richard Show, the hosts delve into the nuances of Continuous Delivery and Continuous Deployment, exploring how testing practices evolve in these environments. They discuss the skills required for testers, the importance of risk management, and the cultural shifts necessary for effective quality assurance. The conversation highlights the need for collaboration within teams and the role of testers as facilitators rather than gatekeepers. The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of understanding quality and risk in software development.Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:01:35 - Quality TalksCheck out their awesome new website02:37 - The Agile Testing Days ConferenceOh! Their Call For Papers is open until the end of March. You should submit!02:42 - Johnny J. JonesJohnny's LinkedIn03:23 - Continuous Delivery & Continuous DeploymentWhat is Continuous Delivery?What is Continuous Deployment?03:31 - Abby BangserAbby's LinkedIn05:24 - Keith KlainKeith's blogKeith's podcastKeith's LinkedIn23:51 - Dan Ashby's famous post called "Continuous Testing" (featuring his famous diagram!)28:45 - James Bach's Test Jumper conceptJames' websiteJames' LinkedIn31:20 - All of these people should probably change their last names to "Bourne"40:18 - James ChristieJames' blogJames' body of work regarding the Post Office Scandal43:37 - Trunk-Based Thierry de PauwThierry's websiteThierry's LinkedIn48:30 - Jerry Weinberg's 2nd Law of Consulting from his book The Secrets of Consulting"No matter how it looks at first, it's always a people problem."Find more of Jerry's quotes on this pageJerry's Wikipedia page (his books are highly recommended)Bonus links to further study on the topic:What's the difference between Continuous Delivery and Continuous Deployment?The book Continuous Delivery, seminal work on the topic by Dave Farley & Jez HumbleSpeaking of Dave Farley...You can visit his website to find links to allTheThingsHere's his excellent YouTube channel Modern Software EngineeringHe's written a second book Modern Software EngineeringSpeaking of Jez Humble...He wrote the excellent book Accelerate with lead author Dr. Nicole Forsgren (<- all of Dr. Nicole's work is recommended reading at this point)And here's his websiteI asked ChatGPT for some resources and it gave me this list (proceed with caution just in case!). 00:00 - Intro01:06 - Merch tangent02:53 - Today's topic:What skills and behaviours does a Tester need, in order to be successful when they work in a CI/CD context?What does testing look like in a team using CI/CD?04:08 - ⚽️ Footy04:40 - Compare and contrast07:00 - What conversation(s) needs to happen before "pressing the button" and who needs to be involved in it?08:25 - Deployed Vs Released13:37 - Monitoring and tooling to enable CI/CD practices17:25 - Where/how do reviews fit into this?20:38 - Back to Shift Left!23:51 - Where does the testing happen?24:36 - The link between chef Gordon Ramsey and software testing25:45 - What are we reeeally talking about here?27:09 - How to reframe things when someone makes the polarising claim "We don't need Testers in CI/CD/DevOps teams"29:35 - Q: So how would I test differently if I were a Tester in a CI/CD team? A: Test like Jason Bourne.32:00 - The value of having a tool belt and using it regularly33:06 - How to catch a unicorn? How to unbundle testing skills35:40 - This all loops back to risks & culture37:03 - Where would it be a bad idea to use Continuous Deployment?40:45 - Q: So how would I test differently if I were a Tester in a CI/CD team? A: Test like a Circus Ringmaster.42:39 - Moar Shift Left: Real Devs build on Main48:48 - Modern Vs Traditional mindsets50:30 - Quality enters the chat...51:00 - The relationship between risk and quality52:47 - Testing Vs Quality Engineering55:50 - ⚽️ Footy
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55:54
A Love Letter to Testing: What We Love About Our Work
In this episode, Vernon and Richard celebrate their love for the software testing community, discussing the importance of people, tools, teaching, and the thrill of conferences. They reflect on personal growth, the challenges of production issues, and the joy of mentoring others. The conversation emphasizes the connections made within the industry and the shared experiences that enrich their careers.Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:10:28 - SeleniumThe Selenium websiteThe BiDi spec10:44 - Jason & SimonJason's LinkedInSimon's LinkedIn13:17 - James ThomasHere's an example of what I meanAnd another!Aaaaaand another!27:02 - The PEBCAK error27:28 Conferences27:58 - PeersCon 202528:17 - Agile Testing Days 202528:29 - Let's Test SAPlease DM if you can commit to going and/or know of companies that would be willing to sponsor!BONUS - The legendary Chris Kenst maintains Software Testing Conferences, which has a list of allTheConferences29:33 - Martin HynieMartin's newsletterMartin's LinkedIn00:00 - Intro01:11 - Is it our birthday yet?01:52 - The Forced Socio-Economic Day episode02:20 - What do we love about our careers?03:07 - We love PEOPLE04:39 - Different kids of friendship06:08 - Making a huge impact on people with tiny interactions08:18 - The benefit of being tool aware10:10 - We love TOOLS10:20 - Rich's favourite tool12:03 - Vern's favourite tool15:40 - We love the VARIETY18:21 - We love TEACHING19:58 - What does the balance look like between teaching, mentoring, and coaching in Rich's current role22:33 - We love CHALLENGE23:51 - Systems thinking and understanding how things work27:28 - We love CONFERENCES35:35 - Mutual appreciation ❤️36:28 - The Friendly Tester is Dead. Long Live Richard Bradshaw!
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39:22
Exploring Agentic AI: A Fun and Eye-Opening First Look
In this conversation, Richard and Vernon delve into the evolving landscape of AI, particularly focusing on the concept of agentic AI. They discuss personal updates, including their health and fitness journeys, before transitioning into a detailed exploration of AI technologies. Richard shares his recent experiences with AI training and projects, emphasizing the differences between traditional generative AI and agentic AI.The discussion highlights the importance of goals, tasks, and tool awareness in AI, drawing parallels to software testing and the dynamics of generalists versus specialists in the tech industry. The conversation concludes with reflections on the implications of these technologies for the future. In this conversation, Vernon and Richard explore the evolving landscape of AI, particularly focusing on agentic AI and its implications for testing and quality assurance.They discuss the importance of defining clear goals and expected outcomes for AI tasks, the need for quality characteristics in AI outputs, and the critical role of human oversight in AI decision-making. The conversation also touches on iterative learning, exploratory testing, and the future of AI in the testing domain, emphasizing the necessity for testers to adapt and enhance their skills in this rapidly changing environment.Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:02:40 - Ben KellyBen's LinkedInBen's IMDb06:38 - Martin Hynie's video explaining Agentic AIBe sure to check out the resources he shared in the comments too. Goodness gracious 🎯12:19 - CrewAI the tool Rich was experimenting with13:27 - And for funsies we asked ChatGPT the same question17:52 - Jason ArbonJason's websiteJason's LinkedIn23:23 - Persona-based testing24:11 - Context-driven testing01:08:43 - Other folks & materials you can learn fromThe deeplearning.ai websiteTariq KingHere's what Perplexity came up with!His workshop: An Introduction to AI-Driven Test AutomationHis presentation: Integrating GenAI for Testing into the Software LifecycleTariq's LinkedInMelissa EadenMel's newsletterThe issue called is "A Fable about GenAI" is excellentMel's LinkedInMark WinteringhamMark's websiteMark's GenAI bookMark's LinkedInMartin HynieMartin's newsletterThe series "So You Just Got Assigned Your First GenAI Project" is goldenMartin's LinkedInGo to his profile. Find the "Activity" section. Use the "Videos" link/button to filter his posts. Watch the videos. Thank me later.Bill MatthewsBill's LinkedIn00:00 - Intro01:14 - Welcome04:02 - Rich's adventures learning about AI05:24 - Rich goes down the Agentic AI rabbit hole07:00 - GenAI vs Agentic AI12:45 - Understanding Agentic AI vs. Traditional AI13:27 - What's the difference between the term "Agent" and "Agentic"?15:20 - How would Rich describe or categorise a chatbot?16:15 - What makes something agentic then?17:52 - Jason helps Rich understand what to expect from his exploration18:51 - What's the relationship between goals and tasks?20:06 - Rich explains what makes this so interesting for him and got him excited26:12 - Empowering Agents with the Right Tools27:47 - Understanding Tasks vs. Goals28:45 - Breaking Down Tasks for Efficiency29:44 - How much agency do agents have?31:38 - Task Descriptions and Expected Outcomes33:03 - Teams of agents vs teams of people and specialists vs generalists35:48 - How does an agent decide what to do next and how does it know it has completed the task?36:40 - Defining Quality in Agent Outputs38:15 - MOAR testing concepts that have parallels with Rich's exploration40:28 - The consequences of not being accurate enough with your backstory, expected output, tasks, etc43:34 - What happens when agenticai is asked to achieve the same goal without changing anything about the backstory, expected output, tasks, etc?45:40 - Challenges of Iteration and Learning46:47 - What are max iterations and what does that remind Rich of?47:40 - Vern wonders how important semantics is going to be and how Testers can contribute to this work49:42 - Rich riffs on exploratory testing51:02 - Exploratory Testing and Agentic Learning. What does the Tester's story look like in the context of an agentic system from the agent's perspective?54:15 - Exploring Autonomy in AI Systems56:57 - Evaluating AI Outputs and Task Design58:21 - What happens if/when the context is left blank in these agentic systems?01:00:49 - Soooo where do the humans fit in if agentic systems can doAllTheThings?01:02:37 - Wrap up: Take 1 - Designing small targeted tests vs designing small targeted tasks01:04:46 - Wrap up: Take 2 - Agents delegating tasks to other agents. Er... WTF?!01:06:00 - Wrap up: Take 3 - How is Rich feeling about AI & AI tools?01:09:45 - Wrap up: Take 4 - Testers ASSEMBLE! How we're going to contribute in a world of AI
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1:13:40
Goals, Growth, and Getting Things Done in 2025
In this episode of the Vernon Richards show, the hosts discuss their goals for the new year, reflecting on the past year and sharing strategies for achieving personal and professional aspirations. They emphasize the importance of journaling, creating structured routines, and building accountability through community support. The conversation also touches on the significance of intentional content consumption and the benefits of sharing progress publicly. Overall, the episode serves as a motivational guide for listeners looking to set and achieve their own goals in 2025.Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:05:35 - The Yearly Review by Dickie Bush & Nicolas ColeThis is an updated version of the one Vernon discussed in the episode. Win!07:52 - Some helpful journalling prompts from Dickie08:18 - The workshop Vernon mentioned is called The Productivity Spark 2025It was a free to attend online workshop BUT... It looks like the link is down 😞. Vernon suspects the free workshop will be run quarterly, so keep your eyes and ears open for the next one. In the meantime, here are some other helpful resources from Ali.Ali's websiteAli's free stuffAli's bookAli's YouTube channelAli's Productivity course/community09:49 - The CountrPT app by Ash Coleman Hynie12:08 - Ilari Henrik AegerterIlari's LinkedIn17:03 - Elizabeth ZagrobaSign-up for the FroGS peer conference that Elizabeth organises (with help from her pals) because it's awesome!Elizabeth's blogElizabeth's LinkedIn26:00 - Ben KellyBen's LinkedIn28:48 - Toby SinclairToby's websiteToby's LinkedIn34:55 - Daniel PriestlyDaniel's YouTube35:14 - John CutlerJohn's SubstackJohn's LinkedIn36:30 - Martin HynieMartin's LinkedIn36:49 - Melissa EadenMel's SubstackMelissa's LinkedIn41:25 - The DOSE EffectThe bookA conversation on the topic between Ali Abdaal & TJ Power the book's author58:05 - Some references for the internal board of directors and invisible council concept from Perplexity01:00:46 - The System Seeing Challenge by Ruth MalanRuth's websiteThe guide book for A Month of System Seeing00:00 - Intro: New Year, New Goals01:09 - Welcome01:33 - Today's theme: Achieving our goals03:29 - How are we approaching goal setting and achieving goals?05:35 - Vernon describes the Yearly Review process he used07:52 - Journalling as a means to remember what happened throughout the year09:33 - Where else would journalling be useful?11:20 - Rich talks about notebooks and how he uses writing to achieve his goals and remember his wins12:58 - Rich's goals for 202515:30 - Timeblocking FTW!16:39 - Starting small18:23 - Vernon's goals for 202519:26 - Richard's reading goals and his library24:15 - How to stay accountable: Building in public & Accountability buddies31:34 - How to stay accountable: Bullet journal34:21 - Vern shares the concept of "Look at me" vs "Look at this" content39:10 - Rich realises why he hasn't done as much signal boosting as he used to41:25 - How to stay accountable: Managing dopamine44:55 - Managing focus by removing distraction47:49 - Intention and finding a balance between resting vs procrastination and striving vs obsession54:10 - How to stack the odds of success i
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1:02:03
2024 Reflections and A Look to 2025
00:00 Introduction02:00 Happy to be Employed05:00 Vernon Wrote a Book08:00 Talking at a Developer Conferences16:20 PeersCon20:24 Our Podcast21:50 Agile Testing Days Experience22:20 Our Podcast again28:30 Bluesky32:30 Vernon’s New Newsletter41:00 Generalist Specialist and AI51:00 Discipline and Consistency54:00 Vernon’s Personal Reflection55:40 Richard’s Personal ReflectionLinks to stuff that we mentioned:05:00 - Mark’s and Nicola’s Book - The Software Tester’s Journey05:01 - Nicola Lindgren Bluesky Profile08:00 - Richard’s talk at Oredev08:00 - Øredev conference - https://oredev.org/11:30 - Abby Bangser - Bluesky Profile15:30 - Gitte Klitgaard - Bluesky Profile16:20 - PeersCon - https://testingpeerscon.com/18:24 - Beth Probert - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethprobert/18:48 - Testing Peers Podcast21:20 - Our Agile Testing Days Podcast episode21:46 - Agile Testing Days conference29:00 - Tobias Geyer Bluesky32:30 - Jit Gosai Bluesky32:30 - JIt Gosai Quality Engineering Newsletter
Vernon Richards and Richard Bradshaw discuss all things software testing, quality engineering and life in the world of software development. Plus our own personal journeys navigating our careers and lifes.
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