Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

Indonesia is facing a defining question: can it continue to grow its economy while making the shift towards a greener future? In this episode of Cleaning Up, guest host Marie Cheong speaks with Sandiaga Uno, chair of Mutuagung Lestari International and former Deputy Governor of Jakarta and Minister of Tourism, about Indonesia’s potential to become a major player in the green economy, and why the country’s natural resources, growing energy needs and entrepreneurial ecosystem could create significant opportunities for climate solutions and investment.
They explore whether green investing could be the next major growth opportunity, why the economics need to stack up, and how moving beyond the idea of a “green premium” towards “green discounts” could make sustainable business models more competitive. From the challenge of moving away from coal while meeting rising energy demand, to the potential of carbon credits and nature-based solutions, the conversation looks at what it will take to turn Indonesia’s green potential into real economic and environmental value and what investors should consider before taking the plunge.
Topics covered in this episode:
Indonesia’s green growth potential
Green investing’s next growth cycle
Green premiums vs. green discounts
Politics and the energy transition
Moving beyond coal
Carbon credits and nature-based solutions
Turning green potential into profits
What green investors should look for
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.
Links
Sandiaga Uno’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandiaga-salahuddin-uno-7803b642a/
Saratoga: https://saratoga-investama.com/
Sandiaga’s article for the Center for International Relations and Sustainable Development: https://cirsd.org/horizon-article/from-rebuilding-to-refining-2/
Mutuagung Lestari Tbk (MUTU): https://mutucertification.com/en/
Subscribe to the Cleaning Up Newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com
Acronyms:
MUTU: Mutuagung Lestari International
JETP: Just Energy Transition Partnership
SBY: Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, previous President of Indonesia
Chapters
00:00 Intro
00:51 About Indonesia
13:03 Saratoga’s Evolution
20:47 Green Discounts
26:18 Energy Transition
32:08 Rising Energy Demand
37:14 Growth and Policy
43:23 Carbon Credits
52:33 Nature-Based Solutions
55:21 Climate Investing
01:02:31 Outro

One of the biggest questions when it comes to the brutal and drawn-out Russia-Ukraine war is how it can be brought to an end, and crucially, could it ever be replaced by a stable peace? To understand this, we have to ask not just where we are now, but how we got here.
For episode 03 of our Deep Dive Ukraine, Michael Liebreich is in Kyiv with John E. Herbst, Senior Director of the Atlantic Council’s Eurasia Centre and former US Ambassador to Ukraine, to explore the origins of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the chance for a stable peace, Russia and Ukraine’s vulnerabilities, and the role of NATO. They also examine the changing US approach to military support and negotiations, and the risks of a peace deal that forces Ukraine to surrender territory.
Topics covered in this episode:
Why Putin invaded Ukraine
Ukraine’s strikes on Russian oil infrastructure
NATO expansion and Russian aggression
The legacy of the Orange Revolution
The cracks in Putin’s regime
Trump’s shifting approach to peace
The risks of territorial concessions
Can Russia’s regime collapse?
Links:
John E. Herbst’s bio: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/expert/john-e-herbst/
Atlantic Council Eurasia Center: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/programs/eurasia-center
Michael’s Substack on Ukraine striking Russian oil refineries: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/why-ukraine-should-keep-striking
Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com
MAP - Membership Action Plan
FSB - Federal Security Service (Russia)
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
02:15 The Orange Revolution
06:45 Putin’s Ambitions
11:00 NATO and Ukraine
16:30 US Policy Shifts
22:00 Ukraine’s Oil Strikes
26:00 Sanctions Hit Russia
29:00 Cracks in Putin’s Regime
36:00 Ukraine’s Winter
39:00 Paths to Peace
44:27 Outro

The world needs more metals than ever before, but can the mining industry deliver the resources responsibly? The energy transition depends on the mining industry, yet the sector faces hard questions over coal, carbon emissions, environmental damage and the rights of the communities whose land and resources it extracts.
This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich puts those questions directly to Rohitesh ‘Ro’ Dhawan, President and CEO of the International Council on Mining and Metals (ICMM). Can mining companies credibly commit to net-zero 2050 while continuing to produce coal? Are they taking sufficient responsibility for the emissions generated by the products they sell? And can voluntary industry standards deliver meaningful accountability, or is the industry being trusted to police itself?
Michael and Ro also touch on Indigenous consent, the lengthy process of permitting new mines, the economics of mineral processing and the challenge of electrifying some of the world’s largest machines.
Topics covered:
Responsible mining and global standards
Mining's role in the energy transition
Coal production and Scope 3 emissions
Tailings dams and industrial safety
Indigenous rights and community consent
Faster permitting without weaker safeguards
Africa's mineral wealth and value chains
Electrifying giant mining trucks
China's dominance in mineral refining
AI, automation and smarter extraction
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.
Links:
Rohitesh Dhawan’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rohiteshdhawan/
ICMM: https://www.icmm.com/
Mining Indaba 2027: https://miningindaba.com/
Mark Cutifani on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P50A_NfgE2A
Subscribe to the Cleaning Up newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/
Acronyms:
NGO: Non-Governmental Organisation
PRI: Principles for Responsible Investment
ESG: Environmental, Social, and Governance
R&D: Research and Development
GFRP: Glass Fibre Reinforced Polymer
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
04:12 ICMM's Role
09:38 Tailings Dam Safety
13:01 Investor Accountability
16:13 Global Mining Standards
22:47 Coal and Emissions
31:20 Permitting New Mines
38:17 Who Benefits from Mining?
42:04 Smelting Economics
47:38 Moving Up Value Chains
51:29 Electrifying Mine Equipment
56:06 Mining Technology Breakthroughs
01:01:12 Outro

Can you make energy investments work in a country at war? Since Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022, repeated attacks on Ukraine’s energy infrastructure have devastated its power system. By spring 2024, the country’s dispatchable generating capacity had fallen from 38 GW before the war to just 12 GW, leaving electricity in short supply and heating disrupted for many households.
For this week’s Deep Dive Ukraine, Michael Liebreich is in Kyiv speaking to Andrii Gerus, Chair of the Ukrainian Parliament's Committee on Energy, Housing and Utility Services, and Dmytro Boroday, Partner at Horizon Capital, about the race to rebuild Ukraine's energy infrastructure, and the capital needed to make it happen.
They examine how Ukraine is attracting international investors into wind, solar and battery storage, why distributed generation makes commercial as well as strategic sense, and how political risk insurance and development finance institutions are helping unlock projects. They also discuss the regulatory reforms needed to attract private capital, the challenge of corruption, and the potential for Ukraine to export electricity to neighbouring European markets.
Topics covered in this episode:
Ukraine's energy system under attack
The shift to distributed generation
Why renewables strengthen energy resilience
What winter is like to live through
Financing energy projects during war
War risk insurance for private investors
Attracting international capital into Ukraine
Ukraine's future in European electricity markets
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.
Links:
Andrii Gerus’ bio: https://forumkyiv.org/en/speakers/andrii-gerus
Dmytro Boroday’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmitryboroday/
Horizon Capital: https://horizoncapital.com.ua/
European Energy Community fund: https://www.energy-community.org/Ukraine/Fund/overview.html
Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/
Acronyms:
CHP: Combined Heat and Power
TSO: Transmission System Operator
DSO: Distribution System Operators
IRR: Internal Rate of Return
IC: Investment Committee
GP: General Partner
LP: Limited Partner
EBRD: European Bank for Reconstruction Development
IFC: International Finance Corporation
DFI: Direct Foreign Investment
PPA: Power Purchasing Agreement
BESS: Battery Energy Storage System
MIGA: Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:06 Ukraine's Energy Crisis
3:29 Soviet Energy System
6:46 War Damage
10:09 Distributed Energy
13:31 Attracting Investors
17:03 War Risk Insurance
21:19 Corruption and Reform
27:04 Investing in Reconstruction
35:16 Financing New Renewables
41:03 Investing During War
47:26 Insurance Against War
51:26 Invitation To Investors
53:58 Outro

The world is facing a new era of geopolitical instability, rising energy costs and declining development finance. For many countries, access to reliable, affordable energy is no longer just an economic priority, it is a question of security.
Recorded in New York during the United Nations General Assembly and Climate Week, this episode of Cleaning Up sees guest host Ana Rovzar, Chief of Staff at the Global Renewables Alliance, speak with Alexander De Croo, former Prime Minister of Belgium and now Administrator of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP).
They explore how renewable energy can reduce dependence on volatile fossil fuel markets, how decentralised energy systems can strengthen resilience, and what Ukraine’s experience reveals about protecting critical energy infrastructure. The conversation also examines how to attract investment in grids and clean energy, the decline in development assistance, and AI’s potential to accelerate progress.
Topics covered in this episode:
Energy security as national security
Renewables and fossil fuel dependence
Financing the global energy transition
Ukraine's decentralised energy reconstruction
Why grids are holding back progress
De-risking investment in emerging markets
Turning climate targets into action
AI's potential to accelerate development
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.
Links:
Alexander De Croo’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexanderdecroo/
Ana Rovzar’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ana-rovzar-2546b149/
Achim Steiner on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2prrV1dPSUI
Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/
Michael Liebreich’s Pragmatic Climate Reset: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/
Acronyms:
UNDP: United Nations Development Programme
UNGA: United Nations General Assembly
UNEP: United Nations Environmental Programme
ODA: Official Development Assistance
SDG: Sustainable Development Goal
OECD: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
04:56 UNDP’s Mission
07:11 Rethinking Development
14:19 Energy Security
17:39 Grids and Resilience
25:52 From Ambition to Action
28:23 Financing the Transition
36:44 Development and Security
41:27 De-risking Investment
45:05 UN Funding
50:06 AI and Development
57:03 Outro