Lessons I Learned in Law

Jonathan Wiseman, General Counsel and Chief People Officer at Ocado Retail, joins Scott Brown to share practical lessons on influence, adaptability, and building a truly commercial legal career.
In this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law, Jonathan reflects on his dual role leading both legal and people functions within a fast-growing retail joint venture between Ocado and Marks & Spencer. He shares why the most effective in-house lawyers don’t stay confined to their “legal lane,” but instead operate confidently in the grey areas between legal risk, commercial decision-making, and broader business strategy.
Jonathan’s second lesson centres on career progression—encouraging lawyers to take opportunities when they arise, even when they don’t perfectly align with a pre-defined plan. He candidly discusses his initial hesitation in stepping into a Chief People Officer role and how that decision ultimately expanded his leadership capability and perspective.
His final insight focuses on commercial judgement. Rather than trying to “win” every legal point, he explains why the best long-term outcomes come from building sustainable relationships and balancing legal precision with business reality. It’s a reminder that success in-house is as much about collaboration and trust as it is about technical expertise.
Listeners also get a glimpse into Jonathan’s personal side, from navigating music choices on family car journeys to his reflections on how AI is already reshaping both legal and HR functions.
This episode is brought to you in partnership with Wordsmith AI — the legal AI platform built specifically for in-house teams.
Wordsmith Legal AI
Guest Recommendations
Song: Waterloo Sunset – The Kinks 
Resources & Links Mentioned in This Episode
Register your interest in joining The Lodge In-house Legal Community: https://bit.ly/TheLodgebyHB 
Listen to the Podcast
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/4

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/
Connect with Heriot Brown
https://heriotbrown.com/ 
About Heriot Brown:
At Heriot Brown, we help lawyers find fulfilment in their careers. Beyond recruitment, we foster a thriving community of in-house legal professionals who share insights, experiences, and growth opportunities.
Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Lessons I Learned in Law, leave a review, and share it with someone building their career in legal leadership.
Chapters
00:00 Opening insight – AI, judgment & modern legal roles 
00:56 Scott introduces Jonathan Wiseman, GC & CPO Ocado Retail 
03:13 The dual role – Legal, HR & executive leadership 
07:04 Lesson 1 – Don’t stay in your swim lane 
12:57 Developing commercial thinking in lawyers 
19:09 Lesson 2 – Take opportunities (even if they don’t fit the plan) 
24:22 Leading people, culture & HR at exec level 
34:54 Lesson 3 – The best deal isn’t always the right deal 
40:32 Hot or Not – AI, legal value & the role of GC 
47:24 Walk-on song, music & closing reflections

Episode 100: Perspective, Candour, and Strategic Leadership — Rachel Canham, Rentokil Initial

 In the 100th episode of Lessons I Learned in Law, Rachel Canham, Group General Counsel and Company Secretary at Rentokil Initial, reflects on what it actually takes to operate as a strategic leader at executive level — across a legal function of around 70 lawyers spanning 90 countries.

 Rachel stepped into her first "top seat" role after a career that took her from private practice through senior in-house roles, and the shift required more than technical excellence. It required a change in mindset and responsibility that she's still refining.

 Three lessons shape the conversation:

Perspective. Shaped by personal adversity, Rachel explains why the best lawyers in a crisis aren't the ones who panic, but the ones who can zoom out and make balanced decisions when the stakes are highest. Calm, objective, clear-headed — and aware that most things are less catastrophic than they first appear.
Candour. Rachel makes the case that candour is one of the most underrated qualities at senior leadership level — but only works if you've done the groundwork. Building trust, credibility, and human connection first is what earns you the right to be honest later, even when the message isn't well received.
Strategic leadership. Rachel pushes back on the familiar "business partner" framing for in-house lawyers. Her view: lawyers shouldn't be partnering from the sidelines. They should be embedded in decision-making, contributing beyond legal advice, and taking an active role in delivering strategy.
Rachel was recorded the same day she addressed the haggis at our Charity General Counsel Burns Supper — in a style I'm unlikely to forget. Genuinely grateful she agreed to be the 100th guest.

About the guest Rachel Canham is Group General Counsel and Company Secretary at Rentokil Initial, the FTSE-listed pest control and hygiene services business. She leads a global legal function of around 70 lawyers across 90 countries and sits on the company's executive team.

Guest recommendation Song: Belter — Gerry Cinnamon

Resources mentioned Register your interest in The Lodge, Heriot Brown's in-house legal community: https://bit.ly/TheLodgebyHB

Give us a Follow!

 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/4

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/

About the show Lessons I Learned in Law is the podcast from Heriot Brown, the specialist in-house legal recruitment firm. Host Scott Brown sits down with senior in-house lawyers to hear how they got where they are, what they wish they'd known, and what they're still trying to figure out.

 This episode is produced in partnership with Wordsmith — the legal AI platform built for in-house teams.

 Find more at heriotbrown.com.
00:00 Opening insight – The courage to be candid 
01:13 Scott introduces Rachel Canham, GC Rentokil Initial 
04:48 Stepping into the GC role & executive leadership 
10:06 Lesson 1 – Perspective shapes better judgment 
17:07 Lesson 2 – The power of candour in leadership 
24:50 Lesson 3 – From business partner to strategic leader 
30:18 Building commercial thinking & executive presence 
33:38 Hot or Not – AI, legal leadership & career positioning 
43:36 Personal brand, visibility & standing out as a lawyer 
44:54 Walk-on so

Dean Nash, Global Chief Operating Officer for Legal at Banco Santander, joins Scott Brown to share practical leadership lessons from operating at scale within one of the world’s largest legal functions.
In this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law, Dean reflects on his move away from the traditional General Counsel path into a newly created global operations role focused on transforming a 1,700-lawyer legal organisation. His first lesson centres on identifying and leaning into your unique strengths. Rather than obsessing over weaknesses, he explains how recognising what genuinely gives you energy can unlock unexpected career opportunities and shape more fulfilling leadership paths.
Dean’s second lesson is grounded in execution: learning to create momentum and “get things done” in environments that often reward over-analysis. Drawing on experiences in early-stage fintech and global banking, he explores how in-house lawyers can think more commercially by treating legal support as a product that helps businesses grow while managing risk.
His final reflection highlights the importance of maintaining interests beyond the day job. By building perspective and protecting personal identity from becoming too tied to professional roles, he argues that lawyers can remain clearer-headed advisers and more resilient leaders.
Guest Recommendations:
Book: Good to Great by Jim Collins 
Podcast: The Tim Ferriss Show 
Resources & Links Mentioned in This Episode
Executive Counsel Accelerator (ECA): https://www.cpduk.co.uk/courses/heriot-brown-executive-counsel-accelerator-eca-course 
The Lodge In-house Legal Community: https://forms.office.com/e/Pq7Uyv8xnS 
The Lodge In-house Legal Community: https://bit.ly/TheLodgebyHB 
Connect with Heriot Brown
https://heriotbrown.com/ 
Give us a follow
·       Spotify: https://lnkd.in/er928hqJ
·       Apple Podcast: https://lnkd.in/ea6Y4JYy
·       YouTube: https://lnkd.in/eAeMvrgz
About Heriot Brown:
At Heriot Brown, we help lawyers find fulfilment in their careers. Beyond recruitment, we foster a thriving community of in-house legal professionals who share insights, experiences, and growth opportunities.
Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Lessons I Learned in Law, leave a review, and share it with colleagues growing their careers in legal leadership.
Episode Chapters:
00:00 Opening insight – Creating momentum in business 
00:56 Scott introduces Dean Nash, COO Legal at Santander 
03:00 Global legal operations role & transformation remit 
08:37 Lesson 1 – Lean into your unique selling point 
18:14 Lesson 2 – Get shit done & create commercial momentum 
21:03 Helping the business make money faster – in-house mindset 
25:52 Lesson 3 – Don’t let your identity become your job title 
30:18 Did I Say This? – leadership quotes & light-hearted debate 
32:29 AI governance, advisory roles & future of legal leadership 
35:52 Book, podcast & walk-on song reflections

Justine Campbell, Chief Legal Officer at National Grid, joins Scott Brown to share grounded leadership insights from operating at the centre of a complex, global energy business.
In this episode of Lessons I Learned in Law, Justine reflects on what it truly means to influence at senior level in-house. She explains why the most effective lawyers focus on delivering insight rather than just information, understanding business context, stakeholder priorities and the pace at which decisions need to be made.
She also explores how strong legal leadership is built through assembling diverse, high-performing teams. From creating space for constructive challenge to investing in trusted peer networks outside the organisation, Justine shares candid reflections on how perspective shapes better judgement.
Her final lesson centres on recognising the responsibility that comes with senior legal roles. Whether advising boards, managing crises or shaping organisational integrity, she highlights why lawyers must balance technical excellence with emotional intelligence and resilience. Listeners also hear personal insights, including her early ambitions outside law and the importance she places on maintaining curiosity throughout her career.
Guest Recommendations:
Podcast: The Rest is History
Podcast: RUNA
Book: Persuasion by Jane Austen
Resources & Links Mentioned in This Episode
Executive Counsel Accelerator (ECA): https://www.cpduk.co.uk/courses/heriot-brown-executive-counsel-accelerator-eca-course
The Lodge In-house Legal Community: https://forms.office.com/e/Pq7Uyv8xnS
The Lodge In-house Legal Community: https://bit.ly/TheLodgebyHB
Connect with Heriot Brown
https://heriotbrown.com/
About Heriot Brown:
At Heriot Brown, we help lawyers find fulfilment in their careers. Beyond recruitment, we foster a thriving community of in-house legal professionals who share insights, experiences, and growth opportunities.
Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Lessons I Learned in Law, leave a review, and share it with colleagues building their careers in legal leadership.
Chapters:
00:00 Opening reflection – Insight over information 
 00:48 Scott introduces Justine Campbell, CLO National Grid 
 02:35 Justine’s career journey & leadership scope 
 06:52 Lesson 1 – Insight matters more than technical brilliance 
 14:10 Building trust with stakeholders & commercial judgement 
 20:42 Lesson 2 – Leading teams through challenge and change 
 29:18 Developing future legal leaders & succession mindset 
 36:05 Lesson 3 – Owning your voice and influence 
 44:12 GC Hot or Not – Leadership visibility & career signals 
 49:30 Walk-on song, personal reflections & closing

Season 9 of Lessons I Learned in Law opens with a candid and wide-ranging conversation with Kevin Massie, Chief Legal, Risk, Governance and Compliance Officer at Imperial Brands PLC, a FTSE 30 business with 25,000+ employees globally.
Just over a year into the role, Kevin reflects on stepping into one of the UK’s most senior in-house legal positions and why the title alone doesn’t guarantee influence.
Kevin’s first lesson centres on work-life balance, but not in the traditional sense. From late-night IPO drafting as a trainee in Canada to navigating a demanding first year as GC alongside personal challenges at home, he shares why balance isn’t about rigid boundaries, it’s about building structures that allow you to flex when life demands it.
His second lesson is a pivotal leadership moment: realising that if you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room. Kevin explains how a near-miss on a major internal project reshaped his view of leadership, from proving individual brilliance to assembling and empowering people who think differently and better than you.
The third lesson focuses on networking without agenda. Kevin recounts how a long-standing mentor invested in a relationship with no commercial expectation, a powerful reminder that authentic connection, not transactional networking, builds a durable career.
Along the way, Kevin shares insights on succession planning, international mobility, building diverse leadership teams, and why lawyers must earn their seat at the table, it isn’t automatically granted.
About Heriot Brown:
At Heriot Brown, we help lawyers find fulfilment in their careers. Beyond recruitment, we foster a thriving community of in-house legal professionals who share insights, experiences, and growth opportunities.
If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your network.
00:00 Genuine connection & networking mindset 
00:52 Introduction – Kevin Massie, GC Imperial Brands 
02:09 Scope of the GC role & global team structure 
05:46 Icebreaker – Farming dreams & life in the Peak District 
07:20 Lesson 1 – Work-life balance isn’t binary 
10:19 Setting boundaries & supporting junior lawyers 
12:05 International career moves – Canada to Dubai to Cape Town 
15:34 Lesson 2 – If you’re the smartest in the room, leave 
18:24 Leadership growth & building stronger teams 
21:45 Succession planning & developing future GCs 
26:43 Expanding remit – Risk, governance & board exposure 
29:30 Earning a seat at the executive table 
31:28 Lesson 3 – Networking authentically & giving back 
35:04 Spotting real relationships vs transactional networking 
37:29 GC Hot or Not – Legal conferences & business partnering 
39:55 International mobility for in-house lawyers 
41:05 US firms vs Magic Circle debate 
43:01 Walk-on song & episode wrap-up