Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast

A bonus episode, recorded at the International Enneagram Association conference in Minneapolis.
Creek, Abram, Lindsey, and Lee sat down with Dr. Jerome Wagner and Patrick O'Leary — two Jesuits who first met the Enneagram in a Chicago graduate seminar in the early 1970s, taught by a famously dull theology professor named Bob Ochs who had gone away for a year with Claudio Naranjo and come back in bell bottoms and a flowered shirt. Fifty-four years later, they're still asking the question that runs underneath this entire conversation: is this something, or is this nothing?
They walk us through what the Enneagram actually was before it was everywhere — an oral tradition shared among fifteen people in a room — and what changed when they decided to write it down. That decision cost them $75,000 in legal fees when Oscar Ichazo's Eureka Institute sued them, a case that ended in summary judgment on the grounds that this material was never anyone's to own.
We also get their attempt to sort the essentials from everything added since: the Sufis gave us the circle, Gurdjieff added the numbers, Ichazo added the centers and the instincts. Everything after that, they'd argue, is sub-theory worth testing rather than inheriting.
It's a rare chance to hear this history from the people who were actually in the room — and it ties directly into everything we explored in Season 5.
Resources mentioned
The Enneagram Spectrum: An Introduction — Jerome P. Wagner
Nine Lenses on the World: The Enneagram Perspective — Jerome P. Wagner
The Enneagram: A Christian Perspective — Richard Rohr and Andreas Ebert
Gurdjieff: Making a New World — J.G. Bennett
International Enneagram Association

The culmination of our fifth season encapsulates a profound exploration of growth through the lens of the Enneagram, revealing that true development demands a nuanced understanding of oneself and others. Throughout this season, we endeavored to showcase the diverse schools of thought within the Enneagram community, emphasizing the importance of critical thinking and the ability to hold complexity in our perspectives. The incomparable, Lee Fields joins us halfway through to give us her take on the season and illuminate the necessity for individuals to engage deeply with their own narratives while remaining open to the insights of others, thereby fostering an environment conducive to genuine growth. Together, we reflect on the journey we undertook, acknowledging the challenges faced and the insights gained, as we sought to create a lasting resource for our audience. As we transition into future endeavors, we remain committed to advancing the conversation surrounding the Enneagram, encouraging listeners to embrace both the rigidity and fluidity inherent in their personal growth journeys.
Big thanks to LEE FIELDS for joining us in this last episode. We love you Lee!
Awareness to Action
Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program
Mario Sikora:
IG: @mariosikora
TikTok: @mariosikora
Web: mariosikora.com
Substack: mariosikora.substack.com
Maria Jose Munita:
IG: @mjmunita
Web: mjmunita.com
Podcasts:
Awareness to Action
Enneagram in a Movie
The Narrative Tradition
Terry Saracino:
Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/
Christopher Copeland:
Web: illuminatingpaths.com
Narrative Podcasts:
Heart of the Enneagram
The Somatic Enneagram
From Armor to Ease
The Enneagram Institute
Gayle Scott:
Email - gayle@enneagrammysteryschool.com
Michael Naylor:
Web - enneagrammaine.com
You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews
—
Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans
—
Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community
Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks
Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts
Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
Follow Creek: @_creekmore
Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

In Part 2, we unpack our thoughts on what the Enneagram teachers shared in our last episode. You'll hear us compare and contrast the models, and share what resonated with us, as well as what we'd like to see evolve, and we explore how we plan to synthesize all we've learned and carry it forward. We are so very grateful to our six teachers for their gift of time and knowledge, and their incredible generosity.
Mental Health Toolkit: Tools to Bolster Your Mood & Mental Health

Awareness to Action
Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program
Mario Sikora:
IG: @mariosikora
TikTok: @mariosikora
Web: mariosikora.com
Substack: mariosikora.substack.com
Maria Jose Munita:
IG: @mjmunita
Web: mjmunita.com
Podcasts:
Awareness to Action
Enneagram in a Movie
The Narrative Tradition
Terry Saracino:
Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/
Christopher Copeland:
Web: illuminatingpaths.com
Narrative Podcasts:
Heart of the Enneagram
The Somatic Enneagram
From Armor to Ease
The Enneagram Institute
Gayle Scott:
Email - gayle@enneagrammysteryschool.com
Michael Naylor:
Web - enneagrammaine.com
You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews
—
Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans
—
Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community
Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks
Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts
Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
Follow Creek: @_creekmore
Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

As we begin wrapping up season 5, we're answering the question, "What now?" We've looked at all seven types through the lens of three influential models, but how do we actually apply it? As we say our goodbyes, we ask our six teachers how their models contribute to growth and transformation, as well as their hopes for the future evolution of the Enneagram.
Awareness to Action
Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program
Mario Sikora:
IG: @mariosikora
TikTok: @mariosikora
Web: mariosikora.com
Substack: mariosikora.substack.com
Maria Jose Munita:
IG: @mjmunita
Web: mjmunita.com
Podcasts:
Awareness to Action
Enneagram in a Movie
The Narrative Tradition
Terry Saracino:
Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/
Christopher Copeland:
Web: illuminatingpaths.com
Narrative Podcasts:
Heart of the Enneagram
The Somatic Enneagram
From Armor to Ease
The Enneagram Institute
Gayle Scott:
Email - gayle@enneagrammysteryschool.com
Michael Naylor:
Web - enneagrammaine.com
You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews
—
Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans
—
Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community
Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks
Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts
Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
Follow Creek: @_creekmore
Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm

The focal point of this podcast episode revolves around the exploration of Type Seven within the Enneagram framework, characterized by their intrinsic desire for excitement and aversion to emotional pain. We delve into the complexities of the Seven's experience, emphasizing the multifaceted nature of their personality, which is often misunderstood as superficiality. Through thoughtful discourse, we unravel the dichotomy of their vibrant exterior contrasted with the profound emotional depth they possess, often hidden beneath a facade of joy. By sharing personal anecdotes and insights, we aim to illuminate the rich inner world of Sevens, fostering a greater understanding of their motivations and challenges. The dialogue further encourages listeners to reflect on their own interactions and perceptions of this dynamic type, inviting a deeper appreciation for the nuanced layers that define the Seven's journey.
Human Interview: Milton Stewart
kaizencareers.com
Do It For The Gram Podcast
The Enneagram Institute
Type 7
The Narrative Enneagram
Type 7
Awareness to Action
Type 7
Awareness to Action
Enneagram on Demand - Certification Program
Mario Sikora:
IG: @mariosikora
TikTok: @mariosikora
Web: mariosikora.com
Substack: mariosikora.substack.com
Maria Jose Munita:
IG: @mjmunita
Web: mjmunita.com
Podcasts:
Awareness to Action
Enneagram in a Movie
The Narrative Tradition
Terry Saracino:
Web: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/team/terry-saracino/
Christopher Copeland:
Web: illuminatingpaths.com
Narrative Podcasts:
Heart of the Enneagram
The Somatic Enneagram
From Armor to Ease
The Enneagram Institute
Gayle Scott:
Email - gayle@enneagrammysteryschool.com
Michael Naylor:
Web - enneagrammaine.com
You Tube - Enneagram Maine Interviews
—
Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: Serious Growth for Unserious Humans
—
Help Fathoms, By Supporting Us Here: Fathoms Membership Community
Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Lindsey Marks
Production/Editing: Liminal Podcasts
Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
Follow Creek: @_creekmore
Follow Lindsey: @lindseyfaithdm