Get Rich Education

Keith sits down with the youngest guest in show history—a 19-year-old college sophomore and student-athlete who's already deeply immersed in real estate and economics, Hunter Taddy.
You'll hear a candid Gen Z perspective on money, debt, and the shifting social landscape, along with what's really being taught in today's real estate and econ classrooms. 
They explore how young people are navigating college costs, work, and early investing decisions, and how hands-on property management education is shaping one student's path. 
If you're curious about where the next generation of investors is headed—and what that might mean for your own strategy—this conversation offers a rare, on-the-ground look without the usual clichés.
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Complete episode transcript:
 
Keith Weinhold  0:01  
Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold talking with a 19 year old guest that I befriended last year. He's a college sophomore with a real estate investing related major. What does he think about generation Z's future is in person, social life, dead. And what do you really learn about real estate and economics in college today on get rich education.
 
Corey Coates  0:27  
Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android. Listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast, sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com
 
Keith Weinhold  1:11  
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Speaker 1  1:44  
You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.
 
Keith Weinhold  2:00  
Welcome to GRE from Concord, New Hampshire to Concord, California and across 188 nations worldwide, you're listening to one of America's longest running and most listened to shows on real estate investing. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and this is get rich education. Increasingly, you know, people ask why even go to college? Is the value of higher education even worth it to drag yourself to an 8am American Lit class while living off of dining hall Breakfast Biscuits and chicken strips for $100,000 a year, it's been estimated that one in seven men are meats, n, e, e, t, that means not in education, employed or training. Why put on a suit and tie and show up at a job when you have a reasonable facsimile of life online and you have discord and Reddit and trade stocks on Robinhood and crypto on Coinbase. Now I don't think that's going to be good for you, and I still think that there are a lot of positives about attending college. At least 15 to 20 colleges close each year in the United States. And despite this, you know, most people that I talk to, they still seem to be mostly positive about college, or they have this expectation that their kids go to college. So anecdotally, this hasn't changed. I probably wouldn't even be as aware of this shift if I didn't read media like I do, if I just talked to people informally, I really wouldn't know. One thing that has not changed also is the notion of the broke college student. I used to be one of those. Now America is just a couple years removed from that wave of elevated inflation and war in Iran has positioned to stoke a second wave of inflation. Today's guest told me that he does pay credit card finance charges, even though he makes more than the minimum payment, just kind of like I did as a college student. The default state of teenage society today is different. It used to be boredom, and now that's been replaced with anxiety. That part has certainly changed, and often it tends to be teen anxiety over such nonsense things. I mean, I have a teenage niece. One example is the burden of maintaining your Snapchat streak? Oh my gosh, if you're a Gen Z or you know what I'm talking about, basically a snap streak where you've got to send a friend a photo or video every single day to keep your streak going, two people have to send it to each other, and people with long streaks, they even like send each other a photo of the floor, just. To keep the streak going. I mean, talk about anxiety over the wrong things. 
 
Keith Weinhold  5:04  
Well, today's team guest Hunter, he has a somewhat better grip on life. I haven't met his parents yet, but they've done an amazing job. In fact, Hunter's dad owns rental property, which kind of helps to fuel some of his interests and desire. But in order to cope with inflation and expenses, buy now pay later programs have really taken off. They're widely known, but less widely known. Our rent now pay later plans. They're booming. Platforms like livable, flex and affirm. They're used by lower income and lower credit score tenants that often live paycheck to paycheck. And how it works is that these tenants are extended money at the beginning of the month to pay the rent. They often pay a flat subscription fee plus 1% of the rent. And you know, hey, that could be better than the tenant paying late fees to the landlord. I learned from one tenant that had trouble paying his $1,850 in rent that flex charged him a $15 monthly subscription plus 1% of the total rent for providing the service. So his total fees for the app were around $33 a month rent. Now pay later. You're probably only going to hear more about it, but if you're a landlord, you probably do not know that your tenant is using a rent now, pay later plan, because you just received the full payment on time, and then your tenant pays back the service later. Remember, it is called rent. Now, pay later. Oh, before we bring in our guest, can I ask you for some quick help? Maybe you wanted to tell me what you think about the show. You could have been listening for years, but you don't think that you can reach me. If this show has helped you become a better investor, the best way to support the podcast is to leave a quick rating or review. It helps more investors discover the show. Just tap the five stars in your podcast app. It can take as little as 10 seconds, and I will read it myself. Thanks in advance for leaving a rating and review. Let's meet this week's guest.
 
Keith Weinhold  7:22  
This week's guest is the youngest we've ever had in show history. He's a teenager, so he's about a generation younger than me, and it's his first time on a podcast. He is a sophomore student athlete at the University of Alaska Anchorage, where he competes in the 800 meters for the track and field team. He runs about a 155 his major is management, with a specialization in real estate and property management, and he's just into so many things beyond athletics and academics, he serves as an ambassador for the Widener property management and real estate program. He's also an officer of the real estate management and investment club from Wisconsin. He's 19 years old, a straight A student. He's also an RA that's a Resident Assistant there helping out students at the dorms. Welcome to GRE Hunter, toddy. 
 
Hunter Taddy  8:18  
Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
 
Keith Weinhold  8:20  
Taddy is spelled T, A, D, D, Y. I met Hunter almost six months ago. A property manager introduced us just thinking that we might have some things in common, and she sure was right. We've gotten together a few times, including going running at one time where, well, I had more than a little trouble keeping up with an active college athlete. The last time we sat down for coffee, just last week, I looked at my watch. We were done, and we sat almost two and a half hours like how many teenagers could really hold my attention for that long? But he just understands the world and politics surprisingly well. For a 19 year old. He's confident and well thought out. He's read War and Peace. He even got some of his own cooking and avoids seed oils. And you know, Hunter being born in 2006 when GRE debuted in 2014 you were eight years old. So before we talk about you, let's talk about your generation, generation Z What do you think some of the markers of your generation are?
 
Keith Weinhold  9:28  
Yeah, so it's as I've shared with you in the past. It's interesting, because especially at UA, I'm mostly surrounded by like, athletes. So athletes tend to be a lot more social, just like how they grown up, they're always around people that tend to be a lot more driven. But then when I talk to, like, non athletes, it's a little bit different. Like, my generation is definitely they're on their phone a lot. I mean, I've told you before, like, I avoid social media. Well, I wouldn't say like the flag, but I avoid it a lot, because I know, hey, how addicting it is. And B, just like, you know, the.The word of my generation is slop or brain rot, and which is most of the stuff on the internet, but Yeah, seems to be like, there's a lot of anxiety in my generation, a lot of, like, lack of accountability, which I've noticed a lot lot of, like, lack of responsibility. And it's almost like self indulgent in a way, where it's like, oh I'm so lazy, or Oh, I'm so this, or I'm so that, and it's just kind of weird. You don't really get that much with like the athletes. Back to the social aspect. I don't know if you've seen that headline recently, that's like, the alcohol industry has lost eight, $30 million over the past four years because he doesn't drink. The real story isn't about Gen Z not wanting to drink alcohol. It's about Gen Z, not like really being social, right? I mean, I don't see that many like, Hangouts as much as, like, when I hear from, like my parents, you know, every night you're going somewhere with your friends or your you know, you're going to the bar, you're going to a bonfire, or things like that. And it's just, you don't see it as much. A lot of people are just in their rooms or online and, you know, the online gaming, online gaming, I don't game a lot, but gaming with friends is actually really fun to do sometimes. But everything's a lot more digital, you know, from the communication to like the spaces, you know, where you hang out, whether it's video games or whether it's VR chat, and some people do that, or discord, or just like internet forums and things like that. Yeah, just lot more digital. 
 
Keith Weinhold  11:24  
Yeah, you use little or no social media. Personally, I know you manage the Instagram page for your real estate organization, but yeah, there is more of this perception of in person, social life, maybe not dead, but dying. I've learned that 51% of 18 to 24 year old men have never asked out a woman in person you were sharing with me at how you know people have anxiety just about ordering food in person at a restaurant in Gen Z. 
 
Hunter Taddy  11:54  
That's actually funny. So because of how that conversation escalated, I technically did ask her out in Snapchat, but then she was like, you have to ask me out in person. And then I did eventually ask her out in person. 
 
Keith Weinhold  12:06  
Now, when it comes to in person meetings, after a few meetings with you, I noticed something rare when it's about seeing people in person, you have virtues that I think are somewhat rare for Generation Z. I mean, you actually show up on time. This this chat we're having right now. It's the fourth time we've gotten together, and you actually showed up early each of the four times, which is something that I really notice and appreciate, which, even for people my age, it seems like it's a virtue that they've lost. I mean, showing up on time is just common decency. That's just doing what you said that you were going to do. I find that pretty interesting. But when it comes to your generation being in college now, I mean, college is tough. You know, when I went to college, I took on student loans. My parents and I each paid for half of the tuition, and also worked a part time job while I was there. So I mean, you hang out with a lot of athletes, but how is it with balancing, you know, the income and student loans? Because, you know, college kids are still pretty poor
 
Hunter Taddy  13:10  
I wanted to run for a division two program, because you can get athletic scholarship. I came in as a walk on. I'm not on any athletic scholarship. I get free housing and free meals for being an RA. Yeah, with my RA position, I actually got the RA position my second semester. So I got it as a freshman, which was like, really, really clutch. So my dad was in the Air Force for 20 years, and I got the GI bill for like, I think, six months. So I got my two first semesters of tuition paid for, and then I got some, like, some money for, like, housing and stuff. I mean, I pocketed most of that just because, I mean, I got it for free already. I don't get any more help from the GI Bill, because I'm not in Wisconsin. But if I went to Wisconsin, I could go to any school for free, like, tuition free. So, I mean, sometimes I do think about that, but with my real estate program. I mean, oh my gosh, the scholarship deadline. Every year they give out like, $50,000 in scholarships. A lot of them are from Widener and then just other like local real estate companies in the area. Last year, I got a $2,500 scholarship to travel to the National Apartment Association's apartmentalized It's like, their yearly conference in Las Vegas, and that was pretty cool. So that stuff kind of went over my head, but a lot of the stuff about AI was, like, just really interesting to hear, especially just about property management. And it's crazy to me, because, like, AI is almost like, my generation's thing, since we're, like, growing up with it, yeah. And then hearing, like, a lot of like, the older people in the property management profession talk about, I mean, they're still talking about when they had to keep their records on pen and paper, or, like, files and stuff. And I'm like, This is crazy. So I have scholarships with the real estate program, if I'm lucky, I can get up to almost $10,000 after the spring. It's.That means I pay in state tuition because I live on campus. It was a deal they were running after covid. So that's only like $5,700 I mean, my scholarships will be able to cover that. This semester, I paid like 2000 of it or something, and then my parents were kind enough to cover the rest, and then I'm going to pay them back right away after the year ends once I get those scholarships. And then, yeah, I get $11 an hour for working desk at my RA job. It's tax free, so, I mean, it's not totally bad, but I don't working desk hours that much because we only have them at night. And then, you know, being an athlete, I don't like staying up until, you know, one o'clock sometimes. I mean, the other night, I had to work a nine to three desk shift, and that screwed my whole for an entire week. Yeah. Okay, 
 
Keith Weinhold  15:48  
so when you graduate college in a few years, you could very well come out with a lower student loan balance than a lot of others did, although you might still have an informal loan with dad in there as well. How do you and a lot of people of your generation see your financial future? They sure can be hard to predict, but a lot of people see this crushing debt with student loans, and I wonder, even though it could be far into the future if really Gen Z thinks that they're ever going to be able to afford a home. Now, when it comes to the student loans, I know I shared with you when we sat down for coffee that I had a balance. I think it was like a $20,000 balance when I graduated, because again, my parents paid half of it and I worked part time when I went to school, I shared with you that I just took that balance and paid very little interest on my student loan balance because I kept transferring it repeatedly onto these 0% APR credit cards, and when my introductory rate expired on one card, I would just transfer it onto another card. So I've long been comfortable with debt. 
 
Hunter Taddy  16:52  
So me, personally, I do not want to take out a loan from any entity. I'm very fortunate and privileged that my parents are able to, you know, front that money for me when I need it. When I need it, I try to pay them back right away. I do not want student loans like my goal is to get out of college, you know, without owing anybody any money. It's weird, because I'm from such a small town in Wisconsin, and I view trades a lot differently than, like a lot of my peers who grew up in the big cities, I know blue collar millionaires, right? People who just, you know, put their nose to the grindstone, pouring concrete. You know, working driving a semi. Only do that for maybe five or 10 years, like my cousins. My cousin pours concrete, and then the other one, I think, works for construction company, the Midwestern work ethic, they're sitting on 10s of 1000s of dollars in their savings account right now. You can make the argument. Well, their back is going to give out in a couple years. And some of that's true. But also, you know, you don't have to be the guy pouring concrete for how long. You could be the business owner, or you could be the guy who's the plumber for 510, years, and then, you know, start your own plumbing business. That's why I don't look at student loans as, like, I need this college degree to, like, make money or be successful. Like, I've met a lot of people who legitimately have that mindset. That's like, I understand that if you've grown up in that sort of, like sphere, you've grown up with those ideas. But to me, it's like, I know if I can't pay for college, or if I don't graduate college, I know I'm going to be fine. I could go, you know, work construction, or I could go, you know, mow lawns or something. I know, I guess I just view it differently. But a lot of people think they need those student loans. So, I mean, they sign up for them. And I looked it up the other day, the average time to pay off student loans is, like, 20 years or something like that. Yeah, I believe it. That is kind of sad. That's insane to me. I want my lawyers going to college. I want my doctors going to college. I want to college. I want all these people to have a good education. But I mean, like 100,000 to $200,000 I just see that, and it's like, oh, I don't know, man, I sign up for the fast flow every year, but I never get anything Free Application for Federal Student Aid, yeah, but I know some people get, like, Pell Grants. If I'm not wrong, I think the Pell Grants are just, I don't know they have to pay those back. It seemed like I was applying for the Stafford Loan. I was lower middle class. I don't think we quite qualified for the Pell grant. The grant being like, free money and a loan of stuff that you need to pay back. Yeah, of course. And of course, in addition to student loans, we regularly have students using credit cards and probably not being able to pay the full balance, is they make their way and try to pay their way through college. That's certainly one thing that I did. 
 
Hunter Taddy  19:28  
Here's something for you, DoorDash, my generation and DoorDash is so crazy. I mean, I look at some of these people we have like a desk, at some of the halls, and the amount of people who just DoorDash some of these people are doordashing every night. And that's not cheap, like, that's sometimes it's like 30 bucks just to get Taco Bell or, you know, Wingstop or something like that, and then Klarna, it's like, finance a pizza. Like, what are we doing here? 
 
Keith Weinhold  19:54  
Sure, yeah, you're making a down payment on a blooming onion and financing it and making the last payment on it. Years later or something. Yeah, crazy like that, 100% and yeah, I would imagine home ownership is just seen as something that's so far into the future, it's almost unfathomable. 
 
Hunter Taddy  20:12  
Yeah, it's funny to me, because, you know, I come from, again, very small town, the cost of living is, like, extremely low compared to the country. I'm pretty sure Green Bay was voted number one place to live by us, News and World Report couple years ago, number one place to live in the United States. But more of the people back home who work these jobs in the trades, like the thought of owning a home seems a lot more real to them than my friends who are in college. And a lot of that has to do with, you know, like we're in bigger cities. Again, people have more debt, but yeah, I mean, you look at those prices of homes, I think the median home price in Anchorage is like $426,000 and just, you know, looking at that numbers like, how am I ever going to afford that? One of my friends, he's in the real estate program. He's got $40,000 saved up. He's got his Roth IRA maxed out. It's weird, because this is one of the points I want to make. So in my generation, you have people who have all these resources, you know, especially with the internet, and they're doing very well with it. They're taking it and they're running with it. And then you have the other part of my generation who's doing the buy now, pay later option. It's almost like a upside down bell curve or something like that. The people who are good are getting so much better, and the people who are making the bad decisions are getting so much more worse. 
 
Keith Weinhold  21:25  
Ah, the K shaped economy starts young.
 
Hunter Taddy  21:27  
 It's just interesting to see sometimes, because you have some people like, I can't afford this, I can't afford that, and it's like, yeah, being college student is hard. But then it's like, you buy your $6 coffee every day, and it's, you know, I'm guilty of that too. My spending habits aren't the best. And then you look at like home ownership inflation is real. Cost of living is getting higher. But also my dad talks about this a lot like our standards are getting so much higher, too great. Our houses are getting bigger. Kids don't share bedrooms anymore. All our kids have to have our phone. All our kids have to have the newest thing or the newest coat. And you know, you want nice things for your family. I get that, you know, I don't have a family, so I can only talk about this so much. But I mean, our standards are getting a lot, a lot higher as well. I mean, you look at our grandparents houses, and they're like, these, just small, one story houses, one bathroom. You know, I look at the house that my dad grew up and he shared a room with his brother until he graduated, right? And then you look at all these families kids live in their bedroom, it's so weird to me that like siblings, they know each other, but they don't know each other because they're sitting in their rooms all day and they're looking at their phones. 
 
Keith Weinhold  22:31  
You surface a good and salient point hunter that a lot of people don't bring up because the K shaped economy that means a widening disparity between the haves and the have nots, but the entire K also keeps moving up, so standards of living continue to get better for both the haves and the have nots, even though the disparity between them continues to widen, and yes, a poor person today has Wi Fi and has Air Conditioning and a lot of minor conveniences that poor people didn't have 75 years ago. You're listening to get rich education. We're doing something different this week, talking to the youngest guest in GRE history. His name's Hunter toddy. We're going to talk more when we come back about what he's learning in classes, economics and real estate classes, because that is one thing that college students do. Remember, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. 
 
Keith Weinhold  23:24  
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Robert Kiyosaki  25:12  
this is our rich dad. Poor Dad. Author Robert Kiyosaki, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold don't quit your daydream
 
Keith Weinhold  25:26  
Welcome back to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith winehill, we're talking with Gen Z and student athlete Hunter toddy. He's a sophomore college student, and he's got a management degree with a concentration in real estate investing. So yeah, Hunter, tell us some of the things that you've learned about in an economics class or two that you've taken there at UAA. 
 
Hunter Taddy  25:51  
So I had an economics class last semester, but the teacher is basically tenured, and he only posted YouTube videos and like three quizzes was like the entire grade. He made us great at 2000 wasn't gonna say and didn't even grade it. So I didn't learn anything about economics, but that was macro, and now I'm in micro. And this professor, he's fantastic. He talks to Anchorage and Alaska legislators all the time. He was on Meet the Press Like he's very, very, very, very smart and well spoken, one of my and professors, and he's also Yale educated, as I understand. Yeah, I always get crap from my cross country teammates because most of them are STEM majors. There's a lot of engineers, and then there's, you know, you have people who are in, like, kinesiology, and then a lot of aviation, but they always give me crap because, like, oh, business, it's supply and demand, blah, blah, blah. But then, like, legitimately, economics has been so fascinating for me, just like, you know, consumer behavior, opportunity cost, trade off. One of the things is rent control, right? Definitely a big conversation, especially in, like, my generation, you know, because of all these rising prices. And then, you know, the landlord always gets the negative connotation, right? Landlords are greedy. I wouldn't even as a college student. Well, you think about rent control is like as soon as you put that binding price ceiling on the rent prices in an area, that's why there's not enough housing on the West Coast. That's why landlords are painting over the light switches, or they're not fixing your toilet, or they're not fixing the leaky sink. There's just a lack of understanding general society about, like, just how markets work and why. You know, businesses make certain decisions that they do. That's one thing with, like, a lot of my generation, is a lot of them are almost anti business, in a sense, right? In a sense, but they love being consumers. What my dad talks about a lot is as the business owner, like when you work for a company, a lot of the times you can clock in, clock out, you go home and you lay your head on the pillow, and you don't have to worry about anything, right? But when you're the business owner, like my dad, and if you have a lot of anxiety, like he does, about certain things, and you stress a lot, you're up at 2am wondering if the LVP you put in someone's kitchen is going to buckle, well, then you're gonna have to go back and fix it all and all these things, and so I definitely have a lot more to say understanding for like business owners and like landlords. Yeah, the economics classes just broaden my understanding of how the world works. I think that's a class everyone should take, and it is a general ed but I think it's a class everyone should pay attention to as well. 
 
Keith Weinhold  28:18  
Sure, rent control gives landlords no incentive to make improvements to a property. So yeah, it's good that you're learning about this in econ class. Tell us about some of the other things that you've learned in economics or in your more real estate investor centric college courses. 
 
Hunter Taddy  28:36  
So I'll focus more on the real estate stuff. So Dean Widener, Widener apartment homes, one of the top five, I think, largest owners of apartment homes in terms of units like in the United States, right? He basically came to Anchorage, and he wanted to build the Widener program, basically like a farm for property managers, like, you know, give this education. And then they, you know, they come work for widener. They come work for, you know, whoever a lot of the education has to do with property management. So there's leasing, asset maintenance. Talk a lot about operating budgets, risk management. All students in the program memorize the cash flow performer by heart. So, you know, you have gross potential income loss to lease, vacancy, net revenue, other income, expense reimbursements. Maddie poo, which is maintenance, admin, taxes, insurance, payroll and utilities. Have you heard that acronym before? What is it? Yeah. Maddie poo, I pretty sure my professor, like, that's kind of like his thing. I didn't finish it all, but we have it all memorized, and then we do, like, a lot of fair housing and landlord tenant law. Yesterday, in my Real Estate Investment Finance course, we were analyzing loans, and we were making like amortization tables, yeah. And then so we were looking at like interest rates, how a balloon loan works, variable interest rates. I took real estate Maintenance and risk last semester, and that was really awesome. We got to visit buildings all across Anchorage and talk with the property managers, talk about maintenance systems, general maintenance of the property, property management, the day to day, things like that. And then leasing, we actually had us basically go undercover. We have to have three properties, and we go do a showing at all of them, and then we had to review them, and we did a presentation about them, and, like, we basically reviewed them and graded, like the leasing agent, and how they did that one was really cool. 
 
Keith Weinhold  30:33  
Okay, so the mock tenant, grading a leasing agent, yeah, then showing you amenities, explaining lease length, things like that, 
 
Hunter Taddy  30:41  
and then seeing if, you know, they violated any like Fair Housing things. He said, Don't necessarily try and bait them, but one of the questions that one of my classmates asked, so what kind of people live here? And then the good property manager, you know, it says we rent to anyone that fits our criteria. And then you have some people that's like, oh, you should have said that. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty touchy, age, race, family status, right? Yeah. So we definitely have that drilled in our heads as well, like landlord tenant law and then, like, fair housing, you 
 
Keith Weinhold  31:11  
told me something interesting when we got together, when you run the numbers for property, that the numbers always work better in one condition than they do in another. 
 
Hunter Taddy  31:20  
So we do cap rate. And so cap rate is noi over value, I believe, yep. So we analyze the cap rates for all the properties, and then we see what is our return if we pay cash or whatever is our return when we pay leverage. And sometimes it's better if you pay cash, or sometimes it's better if it's leveraged. But I always think even if you could pay cash, you pay, say, $3 million for the whole complex, well, you could put a $500,000 down payment on six other properties. So I always thought that was weird, because that's just, I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, after my dad recommended it to me, and then it just talking to my dad about leveraged investments. Yeah, why don't you do that instead? Oh, he said, 
 
Keith Weinhold  32:00  
right, as long as you control your cash flow and pay the mortgage and the operating expenses. Yeah, we typically talk about getting the leverage here, because the appreciation grade has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of equity that's in the property. Is there anything else interesting that you learned from going out in the field and actually seeing some properties or talking to some managers? And I think this is really interesting, because a lot of times when people graduate college, they tend to broad brushstroke students or new graduates, and say, Yeah, but they haven't gotten out in the real world yet, but you actually are as a student. 
 
Hunter Taddy  32:33  
Yeah. So that's one thing I really love about our program, and I really love our professor. He owns properties himself. It's not like a pyramid scheme thing where, like, almost like, you're going to college to learn how to be a professor, and sometimes that we need those people for, like, research and stuff. But like, he's actually done the work. He knows what it's like. He can relate to things that we're talking about. Yeah, we get a lot of that real world experience, which is really awesome going about that, like the leasing experience. One of the things with, like, a lot of the managers, especially in Anchorage, because there's such a housing shortage, a lot of them didn't really like try, because they like, almost don't have to, because, I think a lot of them assume you're gonna lease someone anyways, no matter, because it's not necessarily really competitive. So because the vacancy rate is so small, yeah. So it's just like, here's the kitchen. You know, we're actually taught in leasing class, leasing strategies. And also, what's really good about our classes, we read, like, a lot of personal growth books in our classes. So like in our leasing class, our professor had us read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey and yeah. And then I think for our real estate investment class, we're going to read the compounding effect. I don't know what it's about, but I mean, I really appreciate how our professor gives us, like, those books and that knowledge that's not just, you know, specific to real estate. It's like how to become like a better person, or how to become better at personal finance in general. 
 
Keith Weinhold  33:58  
All right, so some conceptual and some mindset stuff, along with more of the hands on and more of the numbers. Well, before I ask you, what's next for you, do you have any last thoughts with what you've learned in class, or just anything overall about your generation and lifestyle and getting along financially? For a college student, 
 
Hunter Taddy  34:18  
in April, I'm going down to Austin for the property con, which is Institute of real estate management, big conference. I think they have this one every year too. I think John Quinones, the guy from what would you do, is going to be like one of the keynote speakers. So looking forward to that, definitely looking forward to some of, like, learning more about, like AI, and how it's used in, like, the property management, like real estate sphere, and then I'm kind of interested in green building, because it almost seems to be like, Win win, right? Because better for the environment and then better for the investor most of the time, you know, like, through these retrofits, like you're just switching to LED light bulbs, we actually, we ran those numbers a lot in my.In its class. Like, you know, what would it be like if you switch from iridescent to LED light bulbs? And it's like, that's like, what are the things that all property managers should do? Because you're saving, sometimes 1000s of dollars and seven or 10 year period, or whatever it is, improve the cap rate, right there? Yeah, I want to definitely learn more about, like, the green building. And also, just because, you know, I'm a healthy person, when I build my house one day, I don't want to have, like, a lot of toxic materials and stuff as well. I have one friend. He's really, really dialed in his health. They're talked about him with you before, but he, like, he's not even have drywall in his house because there's some, like, toxic thing in drywall, or something, like, he's gonna build it out of brick and mud or something, I don't know. 
 
Keith Weinhold  35:39  
Oh, he can't just go live in any rental. Yeah, well, Hunter, this has been really good. Your dad owns rentals in Wisconsin, and like you mentioned, he's red, Rich Dad, Poor Dad himself. So that's kind of an influence on you. And you do have a management internship back in Wisconsin this summer. But before we go on, you mentioned to me that your dad owns a certain type of apartments in Wisconsin, and I've never heard of that type before. What are they called? And then, what does that mean? 
 
Keith Weinhold  36:06  
I think the name is local to the city itself in Manitowoc, Wisconsin. So they're called custerdales. I think there were homes built after World War Two, I believe, for like GIS and things like that so well. Just before he got in the Air Force, he was in Saudi Arabia for a year, and he was thinking about, you know, what am I going to do when I retire? Because he knew after the year was done, he was going to retire and come back to Wisconsin. And one of his friends got him into real estate, and he talked to my mom a little bit, and they just started buying properties. So that was in 2018 and now they own about 70 units, mostly duplexes, with their biggest being a five Plex. They also have a 18 bed assisted living facility. Most of the the 70 units are called custerdales. They're all like, cookie cutter, like, the same they're basically the same layout, you know, sometimes it's just flipped or whatever. And he basically did the same thing each time, a lot of them were, like, really run down ones that they purchased had someone with a chicken living on top of the refrigerator. And then when they locked the place up after they bought it, he broke back in and took stuff. And so they've really, actually, like, helped the community in a way, by remodeling a lot of these homes. And then my dad would refinance them, and then he would take that money and then invest it into another property. And he just kept doing that again and again and again. Yeah, so buy and hold we self manage, because there's not really a reputable property management service in the area. This is near Manitowoc, Wisconsin. Maybe you've heard that name before. Manitowoc, they make heavy construction equipment, and you are going back to Wisconsin this summer for a management related internship, yeah, well, Hunter, well, this has been great talking about what your generation's like, what you do in your classes, and the practical experience that you're already getting as a 19 year old. I mean, you're just substantially further ahead than I was as a geography degree student and major way back in the day, if anyone wants to reach out to you, see what you're doing, or contact you. What's the best way for them to do that? Hunter. 
 
Hunter Taddy  38:09  
So I don't have Instagram or Facebook, but I do have LinkedIn. So if you just search Hunter toddy again, T, A, D, D, y, on LinkedIn, you can find me there. Also just give my email. It's H hottie 007 at Gmail. 
 
Keith Weinhold  38:26  
All right, look that up if you want to reach out to Hunter. Yeah, it's been great having you here. Thanks so much for coming on to the show. 
 
Hunter Taddy  38:32  
Thanks forhaving me. 
 
Keith Weinhold  38:40  
Yeah, a fresh perspective from college student, Hunter toddy today. He has got his act together amazingly well for a teenager, and you know, talking to him made me think about something like I said when I graduated college, and it was just with a bachelor's degree. By the way, pretty humble bachelor's double major, geography and regional planning, I had that 20k in student loan debt, which I transferred onto 0% APR credit cards, over and over again and inflation adjusted terms, that might be 40k in today's dollars. I had no incentive to pay it down, let alone pay it off, since my finance charges were essentially zero, so that's why I probably carried that balance for close to 20 years. But this is the first time that I thought about the fact that that very habit was probably a benefit to me, not because it saved me from paying interest on student loans, but because it got me comfortable withholding debt for the long term and rationalizing that there would be an opportunity cost of paying off that debt, because a payoff would have meant that I would forego the opportunity of investing those dollars to get gains, that habit got me comfortable with prudently using debt and leverage as a real estate investor, and that helped me own and control more property sooner. So it was a somewhat autodidactic approach to good debt. Today, we talk with a young, likely soon to be investor, oppositely next week here on the show. We're talking about the book end, on the other side of the shelf, and that is when you're ready to retire from real estate, you can exchange your properties into a fund, pay zero capital gains tax or depreciation recapture. And unlike a 1031 exchange, what you've done is you have totally exited the direct real estate business with a 721, exchange, and you still get financial upside with zero management duties retired. Finally, if you've ever wanted to tell me what you think about the GRE podcast, if this show has given you some fresh perspective or helped you become a better investor. The best way to support the show is to leave a quick rating or review. It helps more investors discover the show. Here's how to do it inside the get rich education Show page on Apple podcasts, scroll about halfway down to ratings and reviews. Tap the purple stars to rate, and then tap the purple words write a review on Spotify from the get rich education podcast, tap the three dots near the top of the show page, tap rate podcast and leave your star rating. That's all it takes. It's crazy that this show has almost 6 million total listener downloads, but yet, across all platforms, we have perhaps only 1000 reviews, and that's probably because I rarely ask for them. I would greatly appreciate it. Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.
 
Unknown Speaker  41:59  
Nothing on this show should be considered specific personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively
 
Keith Weinhold  42:27  
The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get richeducation.com

Keith is joined by housing market intelligence authority Rick Sharga—a frequent guest on outlets like CNBC and Bloomberg who "quietly gets it right" rather than chasing clickbait crashes.
Together, they dig into whether America really has a housing shortage and how that lines up with what you're seeing in prices and inventory. 
They explore why entry-level homes are so constrained and what that means for both investors and homebuyers. 
They also examine how mortgage rates, builder behavior, and demographic shifts could shape housing demand and investment opportunities over the next several years.
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Complete episode transcript:
 
Keith Weinhold  0:01  
Keith, welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, does America really have a housing shortage? And if so, how long will it last? Those answers and more, with an expert guest and I today on get rich education.
 
Speaker 1  0:19  
Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com
 
Keith Weinhold  1:03  
the same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours. Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your prequel and even chat with President chailey Ridge personally while it's on your mind, start at Ridge lending group.com that's Ridge lending group.com
 
Speaker 2  1:36  
You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.
 
Keith Weinhold  1:46  
Welcome to GRE from Nantucket, Massachusetts to Pawtucket, Rhode Island and across 188 nations worldwide. America's favorite shaved mammal on a microphone has got his slack jawed act back on track for another wealth building week with you. I'm Keith Weinhold. This is get rich education. I'm still not wearing a pair of knockers, and I've returned here to bring you more value than your HOA dues. It's kind of crazy that America First put a man on the moon, and we're the first nation to put a man on the moon in 1969 and yet today, we have trouble housing our own people here on Earth. Shortly, we're going deep on does America really have a housing shortage first? Sometimes real estate investors can learn lessons from the stock market about the future direction of housing prices and demand and just simply what assets people have demand for, how AI is disrupting some stock sectors. Has been rather germane lately. One CEO made this perfect example. It's about how two different stocks travel search engine Expedia and Delta Airlines, those two stocks were once closely tied together. Their share prices used to be correlated, but they've gone in separate directions. See, Expedia offers you a service that can be replicated by bots, but delta has actual planes that take you somewhere, and it's hard for AI to replace that. This is why there's been a recent push toward more tangible stocks and tangible assets, a divergence, an attraction to assets that give you a share of either a tangible good, or, in the case of something like an airline, a service that's directly tied to something tangible. And similarly, commodities like gold, silver and copper cannot be replaced by AI. Neither can real estate. There is a growing sense to own things that can't be disrupted, dematerialized and demonetized by AI, like so much software can. In fact, as overall stock market valuations are lofty. You know, some people have become rather wary of an AI speculative bubble that perceptive to this demand. Just a few weeks ago, Goldman Sachs introduced an everything but AI index, yeah, where you can invest in a basket of companies that are sheltered from Ai disruption, this everything but AI index that's attracting investors. In fact, there's another trend that interfaces with real estate that just launched recently too today, you can wager on future homes. Prices through the platform, poly market, yes, place bets for profit or loss on the future direction of the median home price. In fact, one recent college graduate joked, I was born too late to afford a house, and born just in time to gamble on people who can buy a house? Yeah, you're probably familiar with poly market by now. It's the prediction market that lets you speculate on things like elections and Fed rate decisions and various geopolitical events and other real world outcomes. Well, they have launched a set of real estate markets that allow users to bet on future home values. The way it works is that you can wager on future home values in New York, Los Angeles, Miami, San Francisco and Austin, Texas, as well as US national home values. So that's six different markets. Now I haven't gambled on Poly market, I had checked it at times to get an idea of where people really think markets are headed or what's going to happen next. Because, rather than major media, where sometimes as a hype machine, they create headlines that scare you in order to try to get clicks, well, instead of all that, regular people are placing their money on polymarket, and you can look at what that action is like, because that can be a more reliable harbinger of future price direction at last check with a national median home price of about 420k with the numbers, poly market is using one month from now, 66% of people think that home prices will rise. And it's more nuanced than that. You can bet on just what price range you believe home prices will fall into one month from now. And this is nothing that I recommend wagering on, but besides an interesting trend, yeah, you can get that idea of where real people actually believe markets are headed. As we're about to talk to national housing expert Rick sharga on whether or not we really have a housing shortage, we've got new data about the level of housing permits. Of course, housing permits are a gage of the level of future housing inventory, because after a permit is issued, it's typically six to 12 months until a single family home is built. But I'll share that with you near the end of the show, because it makes sense to cover this with you in chronological order. We'll discuss housing supply first, and then I'll tell you about the future supply direction based on housing permits. Now, you know from the inception of this show in 2014 I talked about the why of real estate investing before the how with anything in life, it's only when you truly know why you're doing something that you'll profoundly care about the how and you'll want to do it well. In fact, when I do an in person real estate presentation, one of the modules that I teach most often is simply called Why real estate. The biggest Why is not altruistic, although that matters, and that's part of it. But instead it's that real estate pays five ways. That's the biggest why any GRE devotee knows that the five ways are simultaneously paid, are appreciation, cash flow, ROA tax benefits, and not inflation hedging. But specifically inflation profiting. Yet I have found multi decade real estate investors that don't understand this, the most valuable hour that you can spend is knowing all the ways that you're paid and seeing and believing how your total rate of return of 20% 30% or even 40% is not far fetched or risky, but it's actually common and even estimated conservatively. If you're initiated on this, you already know, but if you aren't, it can sound a little hard to believe what I just said right there, I recently reshot the entire real estate pays five ways video course, and it's the most valuable hour of investing video content that you're likely ever to see. It's premium, masterclass level content. I'm just giving it away for free because people need to know this. And actually, on the newest shoot, I've condensed it down into just 40 minutes of content across the five videos, one instructional video for each of the five ways you're paid. The videos average eight minutes. So that's about 40 minutes total, and they build on. Each other. So at the end of each one, you get to see your cumulative rate of return. It just keeps adding up, and you know exactly where all of the numbers come from. That's why it's more conducive to video form than audio form. I know that many of you have seen it, but if not, it is foundational, and I cannot recommend it enough. It's free and available to you now. At get richeducation.com/course, get that now, while it's on your mind. At get rich education.com/course, more next, I'm Keith Weinhold, this is get rich education.
 
Keith Weinhold  10:39  
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Keith Weinhold  11:16  
You know, most people think they're playing it safe with their liquid money, but they're actually losing savings accounts and bonds don't keep up when true inflation eats six or 7% of your wealth. Every single year, I invest my liquidity with FFI freedom family investments in their flagship program. Why fixed 10 to 12% returns have been predictable and paid quarterly. There's real world security backed by needs based real estate like affordable housing, Senior Living and health care. Ask about the freedom flagship program. When you speak to a freedom coach there, and that's just one part of their family of products, they've got workshops, webinars and seminars designed to educate you before you invest. Start with as little as 25k and finally, get your money working as hard as you do. Get started at Freedom, family investments.com/gre, or send a text. Now it's 1-937-795-8989 Yep. Text their freedom coach directly. Again, 1-937-795-8989,
 
Kathy Fettke  12:27  
this is the real wealth network's Kathy betke, and you are listening to the always valuable get rich education with Keith Weinhold. You
 
Keith Weinhold  12:46  
Is America really short millions of homes? If so, that doesn't mean every market is undersupplied, and prices can only go up because of it. If there's a housing shortage, why are prices falling in some cities? So the shortage? Is that something that's real, or is it just misunderstood, and you're gonna learn what it means to you? I'm get rich education's Keith Weinhold along with an intelligence authority today that usually gets it right. In fact, I found an old clip of him on Bloomberg where he suggested home prices bottoming in 2011 and as it turns out, they sure did today, together, we're answering the question, does America really have a housing shortage? And my guest has often appeared in major media, CNBC, Fox NPR. He's the founder of the CJ Patrick company. Hey, welcome back to the show. Rick sharga,
 
Rick Sharga  13:39  
good to see you again. Keith, thanks for inviting me.
 
Keith Weinhold  13:41  
You know, it's funny. Four years ago, Rick and I found each other, and we sort of checked each other out. I found him to be an authority that just doesn't go on saying this bombastic and absurd stuff just to get attention. Instead, he quietly gets it right, and when he knew I had a real estate YouTube channel, similarly, I resonated, because I'm not one of these people that's constantly saying that housing prices are going to crash just to get views and then those crash. People never follow up when they're wrong, and they've been wrong for about 14 years now. But Rick, rather than prices, we're here to understand if there's really a housing shortage today, most agencies believe we have a shortage. Moody's will tell you 2 million. Zillow, four to 5 million. Congressional Republicans have gone on to say 20 million. I sure don't know about that. And then yet, Rick sometimes at the same time, you do see these conflicting stats, where it says that sellers outnumber buyers today, which sort of flies in the face of a housing shortage. So what is your take amidst all this?
 
Rick Sharga  14:46  
Well, Keith, I think what we're seeing is a fairly obvious example that if you torture data enough, you can make it say anything in the right you wanted to say. And there is a lot of confusion about how much. A housing shortage we really do have. It's not like we have 20% of the population unable to find anywhere to live. Most people still prefer to live indoors, and they've been able to do so, but the fact of the matter is that all of the math suggests that we are underserved in terms of the number of housing units available across the country, and we can go through some of the math. The big question, of course, is, how many houses are we short? How many housing units are we short? And the reason the numbers are all over the place, and as you suggested, let's set aside the Republican estimate of 20 million, because there's, there's certainly something political going on there, but the estimates range from around a million to as high as five or 6 million. And the reality is all of those estimates are counting something different. Some are counting housing growth versus population growth. Some are counting vacancy rates compared to historic levels, some are counting inventory available for sale today versus inventory available to sale in prior years. So each of these organizations, and they're all pretty reliable organizations, Moody's is certainly good. Zillow's research team is top notch. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac the National Association of Realtors. None of these people are hiring dime store economists. They're all good folks, but they're all measuring something slightly different, which is why these numbers come out all over the place, and the one of the fundamental challenges is trying to figure out housing shortages compared to what, or compared to when. All of these estimates assume that there was some point in history when we had exactly the right number of housing units to suit the needs of the population. So they start with some point in time, and I think if you did enough research, you find they all start at slightly different points in time, and then kind of work their way forward from that and come to very different conclusions, again, based on where they started and where they ended up, and what they count. The one thing I would push back on a little bit from some of your comments in the intro is that I am highly, highly skeptical, extraordinarily skeptical of the reports that talk about how many more sellers we have than buyers, because that makes some wild assumptions about the number of people that are actually interested in buying a house. And I've never seen any research methodology that's really nailed that number accurately. Because nobody knows if you're thinking about buying a house right now, until you go to an open house until you do a search on on Zillow, or realtor.com or homes.com until you actually are applying for a loan or making a deposit. So the notion of being able to mind read three 40 million Americans to figure out how many of them are interested in buying, I think, is a neat trick, but I do think it's at least in part one of those methods that people use to get a lot of clicks to their website
 
Keith Weinhold  18:05  
right? This whole thing of and I think when we talk about sellers versus buyers, that's shorthand. What we really mean are, there are some stats out there that show that prospective sellers outnumber prospective buyers, in some cases, which, yeah, I think I agree with you there. I doubt that as well. And yeah, of course, I think you're getting on some of the nuance here. We're trying to predict how some people would behave. For example, how much pent up demand is there when we're talking about sellers versus buyers, and we're talking about a shortage, for example, say, the 28 year old living with their parents that could move out and afford to buy a home if mortgage rates hit 5% like for example, how do you count that? Or, how would you even know to
 
Rick Sharga  18:53  
it's a valid point. Keith, and I think that fundamentally, is my question. With that particular report, you really can't count that person. We do have some metrics that we follow, and it's funny, you mentioned that 5% mortgage, because as we record this, mortgages have broken that 6% threshold for the first time in a number of years. And just about every kind of mortgage you could buy right now is below 6% so that's a good thing. And every time we've gotten close to that 6% mark. In recent years, since mortgage rates doubled back in 2022 we've seen a huge influx of people applying for purchase loans, for those mortgage loans to buy a house, those numbers are up somewhere between 13 and 15% year over year right now, and that's before we've really had these mortgage rates dip below 6% so to me, that suggests there really is pent up demand out there, and I judge that just based on what I see in terms of a number of people actively applying for a loan.
 
Keith Weinhold  19:54  
Yeah, there's a lot of nuance here. HUD tells us that we have more. Homeless people than we've ever had in this nation. So that's sort of an extreme affordability problem. To your point earlier about how most people want to live indoors, and I'm sure not making light of homelessness. It's a sad situation, but we're always going to have homeless people regardless of whether we have excess housing or a housing shortage. We have about 146 million housing units in the United States. The census shows and suggests that 8 million of those 146 million are housing units where people have doubled up and are sharing space with non relatives. That's one way to think about the level of pent up demand within the shortage,
 
Rick Sharga  20:44  
I don't know if that's a result of shortage necessarily, or if that's a result of having the weakest affordability for people looking to buy homes that we've had in over 40 years. The last time affordability was as bad was the 1980s and the reason affordability was bad back then was because mortgage rates were at 1819, 20% and it made it very difficult for people to afford homes. But we're coming out of a very unusual cycle, and this is a little bit off topic from our inventory question, but it's the only time in US history when two conditions have hit the housing market back to back, if you go back to covid, coming out of covid, we saw home prices go up nationally by over 50% in about 18 months. It was a huge, huge, unprecedented increase. Yeah, and right on the heels of that, as inflation started to get out of control, the Federal Reserve had to take pretty extreme measures to get that back down. So they started playing with the Fed funds rate, and we saw mortgage rates double in 2022 in the history of the country, according to Freddie Mac we've never seen mortgage rates double in a calendar year. And in 2022 They not only doubled in a calendar year, they doubled in the space of a few weeks. So we're coming out of a period where home prices went up by over 50% and then mortgage rates doubled, and it just crushed affordability. So the people that have been looking to buy a $400,000 house suddenly realized they could only afford a $200,000 house, and there were none of those around. It's really why home sales have gone down as rapidly as they had volume of sales. In 2021 we sold 6 million existing homes. In 2022 it dropped to 5 million. And for the last three years, we've been sitting at around about 4 million annual sales of existing homes. And again, that doesn't suggest a lack of inventory, a lack of homes, because there are fewer people buying, and there's more properties staying on the market longer. But the underlying numbers, the underlying metrics we would look at, are where we can start to kind of deduce that there aren't enough homes. For example, you mentioned that there are about 146 million housing units across the country. Most recent census data I have from the end of 2024 says it's about 140 748, 40 748 million. So it's up just slightly from your number. That represents a growth of about 6.7% in housing units between 2010 and 2024 during the same period of time, the population went from about 309 million to about 340 1 million, and that represents a growth rate of about 7.4% so if everything else stayed equal, your population grew at a faster rate than your housing units did. And that suggests that even if the number of housing units was ideal back in 2000 it's somewhere less than ideal by the time we got to the end of last year, 
 
Keith Weinhold  23:42  
we're talking with Rick sharga. He's the founder and owner of the housing market intelligence firm, the CJ Patrick company. We're answering the question, does America really have a housing shortage? We're getting a yes there. And before we're done, we're going to talk about, how long could the shortage persist? But Rick, you spoke to affordability, and I think that has a lot to do with the nuances within the shortage, and that brings up shortages within the luxury tier versus shortages in the entry tier. And the entry tier is really what a lot of our listeners and viewers are interested in, because we're used to buying those as rental properties. So can you tell us about that?
 
Rick Sharga  24:23  
It's a great point, Keith. And what we've been talking about so far is kind of a structural shortage in the overall number of housing units that could be purchased, could be owner occupied, could be rented. And one of the culprits there, and I will answer your question, I promise, one of the culprits there is that builders simply haven't built that much. If you look at the long term average, like 2025 years, the average number of housing starts was somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4 million a year coming out of the Great Recession in 2010 so you look at that last 15 year period or so, 12. Of those years, they've started less homes than that long term average. So builders simply haven't been keeping pace, not only with population growth, but also with just the ability to create enough homes in general, to offset the number of homes that are obsoleted every year, that get bulldozed every year. So there is a structural shortage. To your point, if you look at inventory available for sale, we are up about 9% year over year, but we're still down about 15% from where we were prior to the pandemic. So there are fewer homes for sale than there were back when the market was functioning more efficiently. The most drastic shortage is at the entry level builders simply have not been making a lot of entry level properties. There's a reason for that. There's some independent research out there, including some research from Fannie Mae that suggests that the pre construction cost a builder has to absorb before they break ground is over $100,000 across the country, on average, higher than that, where I'm calling you from today, in California, it's about 120,000 there. If your table stakes are 100,000 $120,000 it's really difficult to make a profit on an entry level property. So the builders, I think understandably, have been focusing on higher dollar, higher value properties and not replenishing that supply that we need for first time buyers and the kind of properties that real estate investors tend to like. The other problem we've had, Keith, is that when those mortgage rates doubled, the people who had purchased those entry level homes refinanced into a two and a half 3% mortgage and are now sitting on a $300,000 property, let's say or $250,000 property with a two and a half percent mortgage. And if they wanted to trade up, they'd be trading up to a four or $500,000 house with a 6% mortgage. And they simply can't afford to do that. So the combination of entry level owners staying put at much larger numbers and builders creating new entry level homes at much smaller numbers has really created kind of a crisis of inventory at the entry level segment of the housing market. 
 
Keith Weinhold  27:18  
Yeah, when we talk about that crisis of inventory in what's available. I'm not talking about shortage numbers now. I'm talking about the active listing count. This means more or less available homes to buy. This includes single family homes and condos. We have an active listing count of around 1 million today. The historic average is around 2.2 million, and that peaked near 4 million during the global financial crisis. So today, only about one quarter as many active listings, available homes as at the peak, 
 
Rick Sharga  27:54  
yeah, only about half as many as, let's call it a normal market, and that's one of the reasons. I think the first time you and I spoke on your podcast, we were talking about all the online snake oil salesmen who were predicting a home price crash. But that's one of the reasons why home prices haven't crashed, and why they've kind of continued to grow, at least at a modest pace, and in some cases now are starting to decline a little bit. But that lack of inventory on the market. When you don't have enough inventory to meet demand, or just barely enough to meet demand, that means that seller doesn't really have to negotiate all that much. That means that buyers are kind of at a disadvantage, and so as long as that's the case, you'll see home price stability. That doesn't mean that every market is going to see prices go up. But if you look across the country right now, if you look at markets where home prices are down even marginally year over year, you're looking at the Gulf Coast states, you're looking at some other southern markets, Las Vegas, Phoenix, you're looking at some outlying markets like Boise, Florida, certainly, and Texas. And those are markets where inventory is actually considerably higher than it was a year ago, and in some cases, considerably higher than it was back in 2019, if you look at markets where prices are still going up a lot, Midwest, Northeast, those are still markets where there's not enough inventory to meet demand. So that relationship between available inventory for sale and demand is really what drives pricing 
 
Keith Weinhold  29:23  
this whole discussion, which is really about the supply, just in the economics one on one. Adam Smith of supply versus demand. A lot of people, just like including my dad, when I was telling him about housing, something he doesn't follow. And I told him that prices are up the most in the Northeast and Midwest. That surprised him. He was like, No, well, population growth is lower here and lower than Pennsylvania, where he lives. And that's when I brought up, well, they're under building there. So in parsing this by geography, Rick, I think another way that we can do it is parsing the housing shortage by the single family homes versus apartments, because it's. Pretty well documented that nationally, apartments could be seen as overbuilt, and single family is under built. Do you have any details with respect to that? 
 
Rick Sharga  30:08  
We talk a little bit about that, and quick shout out to both of our home state, Pennsylvania, yeah, Phil, Philadelphia actually had some of the highest annual price increases right in their home sales last year. But part of that isn't just because they haven't been building a lot in Philadelphia or the suburbs. It's because we see people moving from higher priced markets into lower priced markets. So we have people actually commuting to New York who have bought homes in Philadelphia or the Philadelphia area. They can get much more house for their money there. They're not subject to some of the wage taxes that happen in New York State. They just get on that Amtrak and train into the city every day. So there is some of that going on across the country too, as we still see net migration of people moving out of states like California, New York and Illinois into nearby states where the cost of living is much lower. That slowed down since covid, since a lot of companies have been requiring people to come work back at the office. But it is still happening. It is still happening in generally the same direction you raise the issue of inventory for rental units versus inventory for, let's say, owner occupied properties, we have seen a plateau in the number of single family rental homes. So the stuff you're hearing out of DC, that you're seeing the media about the really important ban on institutional investor buying is really much more sizzle than substance. Oh, right. Institutional investors are owned and are buying a fraction, but we've seen over a million apartment units come online in the last 18 months. It's about the largest number of apartments that have that have sprung up and in that shorter period of time on record. And we've gotten to a point where in some markets, there's actually a little bit of an oversupply of those apartment units now that will balance itself out over the next couple of years, because multifamily building starts are way down too so we're not seeing a lot of activity there as builders hold off, waiting for this new inventory to get absorbed. But to put it in perspective, vacancy rates went from near zero back during covid in those apartments to over 6% last year. Rental rates have gone down from 15% year over year, increases back in 2020, 2021, to negative numbers nationally in the last year, just talking apartments, just apartments. So we have a short term mini glut, if you will, of apartments. It will be absorbed rapidly. We have 92 million people between the ages of 26 and 54 who are have either formed households or are about to a lot of them would like to be homebuyers can't afford today's prices, so they're renting instead. And about 5 million people a year are turning 35 which is when, you know, we parents start literally kicking them out of the house. So I think that rental overage will resolve itself, really, in the next 12 to 18 months. And if the builders don't start building new inventory by that point, we'll wind up with another shortage on the housing front, I'm of the opinion that we're at least a million homes short compared to what demand should be. I think the number is probably somewhere between one and 2 million. And again, I'm doing that simply based on a slight decrease in vacancy rates, population growth and the aging of the population. What could throw all of our numbers off? Keith is one of the X factors in demographics and population, which is immigration. Population growth, if it's organic, if it's by birth, does have an effect on housing, to an extent, but it's it's more nuanced, and it takes longer to really show itself if you're dealing with adult immigrants coming into the country, particularly immigrants who are coming in for jobs and have income that they can spend on housing, your housing demand goes up quickly, and that can have some local market repercussions depending on where the immigrants are going.
 
Keith Weinhold  34:18  
In Philadelphia is not a coastal city. Its cost of housing is surprisingly low to a lot of people, but it's not on a coast. Just look at a map. Well, Rick, as we're winding down here, how long could the housing shortage persist overall?
 
Rick Sharga  34:33  
I think we're in a period of time right now where builders are reluctant to overbuild. They got caught in the great recession with about a 13 month supply of homes available for sale, and then as home prices crashed, they were competing with their own inventory from the prior year, and many of them took a real beating financially during that period of time. So I don't expect we'll see builders overbuild anytime soon. And that tells me that we're probably looking at at least another three to five years before we can have a rational conversation about housing numbers kind of leveling off to be where they should be. We mentioned immigration. That is an X factor that could extend the housing shortage. If we start to see more immigration coming into the country, it could mean that we don't need as many houses as I suspect, if we have fewer people coming into the country. And the other x factor here is the boomers, the baby boomers of any generational cohort, probably have the highest home ownership rates right now and ultimately will age out of their properties. They've stayed there longer than any prior generation has, and that's also contributed to the inventory shortage, as opposed to the housing shortage. But as a friend of mine said, and it's a little macabre, but as he says, boomers will eventually leave their homes, either vertically or horizontally, so that will bring some inventory back to the market as well
 
Keith Weinhold  35:58  
housing supply. It is rather inelastic, and we're probably going to be in this shortage for a number of years. Well, Rick, tell us how and why people consult with you and then just how they can do that.
 
Rick Sharga  36:12  
Yeah, I work with mostly companies that are in the real estate or mortgage industries. Keith, I typically prepare a lot of market intelligence reports to them. It's real estate data, economic data, mortgage data. For some clients, I do foreclosure reports. They know what's going on in terms of delinquencies and defaults. For others, I do research on investor purchase activity, what they're buying, what they're selling, what they're paying, where they're doing all this. So anything that's data related to real estate data, mortgage data, economic data, I'm kind of neck deep in and I'm very easy to find on either LinkedIn or x. So if anybody's listening today and wants to connect on those platforms, just reach out and tell me you saw me on the GRE podcast, and I'll know you're legit.
 
Keith Weinhold  36:56  
Housing supply is coming up short, but Rick never does. It's been great having you back on the show.
 
Rick Sharga  37:02  
We'll do it again soon, Keith, It's great talking to you.
 
Keith Weinhold  37:10  
Do we really have a housing shortage? The answer is yes, and the number of units short is one to 2 million. The shortage is worst in the entry level home segment, which matters so much to us as investors, we are owning an asset that's going to have sustainable demand for quite a while into the future. Rick indicated that it could take perhaps three to five years just to get back into balance. Now, we recently learned that there were fewer housing permits issued last year than there were in any year since 2019 and housing permits are an indicator of the future home supply. They had their recent peak five years ago with 1.7 5 million, and last year, there were just about 1.4 million. So home permits issued are 19% lower today than they were back in 2021 this is a harbinger of supply, because from the time that a permit is issued, it takes six to 12 months to complete a single family home. It's about six months to build a tract home, and closer to 12 months for a custom home. For apartments, it can take in excess of 24 months to deliver that period of time from permitting to completion. So nationally, we should continue to see scarce supply in the one to four unit space, keeping upward pressure on prices again for the most valuable 40 minutes of educational real estate investing material around you can access my premium real estate pays five ways, master class of five videos, totally free. And you know how I operate. I don't try to upsell you to some paid course. Either. It's just truly free. I'll send it to you. You can access it at get rich education.com/course coming up on future episodes here on the get rich education podcast, we're about to go on a run. The next stretch of GRE is loaded. We've got fresh topics with some game changing monolog content that I'm going to share with you new guests, distinguished guests. Next week, the youngest guest to ever appear on the show is going to be with us. He's a 19 year old college student with a real estate investing related major. How does he see Gen Z's financial world? Is there any hope at all? The following week, we're going to break down an innovative way to sell properties that could completely change how you think about your exit strategy when it's all done, when it's time for you to retire from real estate, rather than a 1031, Exchange, which would just keep you in the real estate game and with more of it, do a seven. 21 exchange into a real estate fund. Have no more assets to manage, no more property managers to manage total capital gains tax deferral and still get financial upside. And then just four weeks from now, it's get rich education podcast episode number 600 debt is the American dream. So if you're serious about building wealth, be sure to follow or subscribe to the show. If you've already done that, I would really appreciate it if you told a friend about this show until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.
 
Speaker 3  40:39  
Nothing on this show should be considered specific personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively. 
 
Keith Weinhold  40:58  
The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get richeducation.com

Keith breaks down where the U.S. housing market appears to be headed and which regions and states are quietly winning or losing in the population shuffle since 2020—and what that could mean for real estate investors. 
You'll also hear about an intriguing cash-flow play in single-family rentals in select Southern markets.
Then, Keith is joined by financial strategist and comedian Garrett Gunderson, who challenges the usual "scrimp and save" advice. Together, they explore how to build real wealth without sacrificing your life today, how high-net-worth individuals often get money wrong, and a different way to think about financial independence, freedom, and investing in yourself.
Resources:
Get Garrett Gunderson's Killing Sacred Cows audiobook free: DM @GarrettBGunderson on Instagram with the words "Keith Cows."
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Complete episode transcript:
 
Keith Weinhold  0:01  
Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, is the future direction of the housing market trending up or trending down? Which states have seen the most population growth? Then powerful wealth mindset tactics with a financial comedian today on get rich education
 
Speaker 1  0:20  
since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads and 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and keep top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com
 
Keith Weinhold  1:04  
the same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours. Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your prequel and even chat with President chailey Ridge personally. While it's on your mind, start at Ridge lending group.com that's Ridge lending group.com
 
Speaker 2  1:38  
You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.
 
Keith Weinhold  1:54  
Welcome to GRE from Mount Rainier to Mount Rushmore and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and this is get rich education. I am not a Lambo driving influencer that will take any brand deal just to shill a gambling platform instead. Our core strategy at GRE is aging. Well, I've spoken with a lot of LP investors with capital calls and deals that lost all their money. Well, we approach wealth building with discipline and consistency. It doesn't sound dazzling, but it really shines when things go wrong elsewhere, because at least for the core of our portfolios, we get long term fixed rate debt for income property get paid five ways and win the inflation triple crown, and we do it all with a high degree of passivity. Right before I took the mic today, I got a two sentence email from a property manager that said an air conditioning unit's air handler board had to be replaced for $420 I don't even know what an air handler board really is. Now, the manager sent some photos in a written estimate. I quickly checked chat GPT, and I saw that the price was about right, and replied to my manager to go ahead and have that done. That's it an example of relative passivity. US residential real estate has nominally appreciated over every single 10 year period in modern history, despite some occasional short term downturns, even those are not common. Well, we recently had a guest mention that it's 20 years at the longest like 20 years or less is the period of time between which real estate never goes down. He was right. But you actually can't find any 10 year period where home values fell. What about the 2008 global financial crisis, I think that's the first place that the mind goes. Well back then, home values bottomed out at 208k in 2009 before they started growing again. And 10 years before that, the median price it was 157k in 1999 so even when home values hit their GFC low at that point, they were still up 32% from the previous 10 years. So you can confidently say then that over any 10 year period, home prices are up nationally. Now, how about the future? Well, for the future, there is more evidence of rising home prices. Building permits for new homes have fallen to their lowest level since 2019 that's according to the census bureau. So fewer single family homes are being built. Now we plan to discuss that more on. Next week show when we dive deep on does America really have a housing shortage? But this week, more reasons for future home price bullishness is that the labor market now, it's not doing that great. It sure isn't white hot, but unemployment, which was already low, that recently dropped a touch lower to just 4.3% inflation has fallen to 2.4% and wages are rising faster than that. In fact, our own Fed Chair recently remarked at how he's surprised at the strength of the economy. The property market analytics firm kotality, they now expect home prices to appreciate another four and a half percent this year. They and other firms continue to believe that the Midwest will be the hottest area of home price growth even more than that four and a half percent in that region. That is because not only is the Midwest underbuilt, it's that the prices are so affordable that it's attracting young people. The other factor is that mortgage rates recently dipped just below six into the high fives again, and that can release this pent up housing demand, and think about where we've come from. In late 2023 mortgage rates were about 8% and now lower mortgage rates also reduce the lock in effect, so it can create both more sellers and more buyers. The thing to remember is that 70% to 80% of home sellers are also home buyers because they've got to live somewhere. And first time homebuyers, of course, they buy only, they don't sell anything. In fact, former GRE guest in housing wire lead analyst Logan modeshami and Barry Habib were just positing on this at housing wire's latest summit on how the volume of home sales has been depressed for so long that lower rates could very well trigger a rush of buyers, these kind of people that have been delaying purchasing for years, this pent up housing demand being released if indeed rates go lower. People think they know the future, but we don't really know that that's going to happen for sure. But a lot of optimism about this phase of the housing market supported by not great, but decent economic conditions. Of course, that new housing demand is going to manifest unevenly across the nation. So let's talk about the places that have seen the most population growth from 2020 to today, basically the states that support that housing demand. Well, between 2020 and today, the US has grown by about 10 million people. That's over 3% nearly every state grew. But the bigger story is where that growth is happening. And really, here's the jaw dropper as a region, the South, gained more people than all of the other regions combined, about 7.6 million new residents in the south since 2020 the South's population is up 6% the West's almost 2% the Midwest population is up more than 1% and The Northeast up seven tenths of 1% again, this is not per year. This is total population growth from 2020 to today, Florida and Texas, they led the nation among the big states, both up almost 9% sprinting like they just found out that income tax is optional. The Carolinas in Tennessee are big southern growers too. People clearly keep moving toward warmer weather, a lower cost of living, lower taxes and job markets. Nothing new there. California in New York are the biggest losers in absolute numbers, California losing half of 1% of population in New York, a full 1% people keep moving away from these traditionally expensive, high tax coastal states like a buffet when the crab legs run out, people just getting up and leaving. That's not any sort of news story there, either. These trends help cash flow residential real estate investors like us, because the south aligns with that favorable landlord tenant law and those high ratios of rent income to purchase price. Luckily for us, that's where people are moving too. The Midwest has those phenomena as well, although their growth has been slower. 
 
Keith Weinhold  9:39  
Now a few Midwest highlights for you. Since 2020 the population of Indiana is up 2.8% quietly benefiting from Illinois. Escape Velocity, Missouri up almost 2% and that's growing mostly in Kansas City and St Louis suburbs. Ohio at almost 1% that's pretty modest growth overall, but Columbus up 5% that is flexing like it just landed a semiconductor plant there in Columbus, the intermountain west has bicep bulging growth, but it rarely works for us, because rents are only a little higher, but property prices are way higher. Yes, those pretty Rocky Mountain states, great Instagram, tough cash flow now Louisiana, it is a state that confounds people. It's a warm place, and it has a low cost of living, you would think Louisiana would be attracting people in droves for those reasons. Well, then why is its population following Louisiana down nine tenths of 1% since 2020 Well, you've got bleak job prospects that make Louisianans leave its tax competitiveness ranks 31st property insurance costs are high thanks to environmental risk. Louisiana has more swamps than beaches. Even the NFL saints were six and 11, and if they had made the playoffs, that wouldn't have made people move back. And hey, no personal shade here, I enjoy going to the New Orleans investment conference in Cajun culture, in Airboat Tours through the alligator filled Bayou, fun stuff, but for income producing property, you got to seek out different characteristics than just vacation Glee or how Good the gumbo tastes keep emotion separate from investing, Hawaii is America's biggest percentage loser. Its population is down one and a half percent since 2020 its cost of living is stratospherically high, with a median home value of just a little over a million dollars. That results in net outmigration to the mainland parts of the Aloha state now experience natural decrease. That means that deaths exceed births. Natural decrease. That's mostly a phenomenon on the Big Island. That's not where Honolulu is. That's where you have Kona and Hilo when young people can't afford to stay demographic gravity kicks in population loss. Hawaii is also highly dependent on tourism, meaning more volatility in recessions. It has contractor availability issues and higher repair costs, partly due to shipping materials to the remote islands. What about the upsides of Hawaiian real estate? Well, you're just going to have this inherent, strong, long term land scarcity and lifestyle desirability overall. Hawaii isn't bad. It's just hard. And I like Hawaii as a place to vacation, so the best times in my life were in Hawaii. Now, with all this said, These are broad generalities about states which are big places themselves right now. There are certainly Missouri real estate investors listening to me that are actually losing, and Hawaii real estate investors that are winning, and even cash flow positive. I'm talking general trends here, and this is with respect to long term rentals, not short term rentals. If your rent to price ratio is as low as point three or point four, like it often is near the coasts, well then you are speculating on appreciation. That's what that means. All 50 states have opportunity. All 50 states have no go zones. People keep moving south. That's a trend that the pandemic accelerated six years ago. More opportunity is concentrated there. That's got nothing to do with vacation excitement. That is population math, and I'm talking about swimming with the tide here in our Don't quit your Daydream newsletter I recently sent you that colorful population change map that I was describing some of there. More recently, I also emailed you that great and rare map of landlord friendly versus tenant friendly states mapped out and a lot of other great stuff. 
 
Keith Weinhold  14:17  
Before we bring in our firebrand guest, Garrett Gunderson, I just learned about a really strong opportunity for a provider of single family rentals and duplexes in Memphis and Little Rock. They're providing a locked in 5% interest rate and 5% property management for five years. Yeah, that's not a throwback to 2020 it's what mid south homebuyers calls their triple five program. They are the oldest and most trusted, maybe turnkey investment provider in the country, operating since 2002 and what they do is they offer these fully renovated, occupied rental properties in Memphis and Little Rock, two of the strongest cash flow markets in the South. With financing and management and rates that make the math work like it hasn't in years. So again, 5% interest, 5% property management fees for a full five years. You know those markets, they already had these investor advantage numbers with rent to price ratios mere point eight in Memphis and Little Rock. But yeah, that low 5% mortgage rate, even for renovated properties, not just new build. That's the kind of spread that turns a good deal into a great one. So to give you an idea, if you get a 30 year fixed rate mortgage loan amount of 125k with a 7% mortgage rate, your principal and interest payment is 832, at a 5% rate, it's just 671, so that's $160 more cash flow right there, and it's made a tad sweetener than that with just a 5% Property Management rate. And I don't know how long that offer is going to last, but it is available now and for the next little while, you can ask about it. When you visit mid southhomebuyers.com that's mid southhomebuyers.com and you can ask them about their triple five program. More next. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to Episode 595, of get rich education. 
 
Keith Weinhold  16:19  
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Dani-Lynn Robison  18:08  
this is freedom family investments. Co founder, Danny Lynn Robinson, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream. You Brenda.
 
Keith Weinhold  18:24  
Today's guest is someone that America knows as the long haired, bearded money guy in the past, he's drawn physical appearance comparisons to Jesus Christ. He's a prominent financial strategist. Founded an eight figure company, hit the Inc 500 he's both a New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling author. He is just an electric speaker, including appearances in front of dozens of billionaires. And he's just got this great way of speaking to financial freedom that hits you differently. He even has a comedy special that's great to welcome back to the show. Garrett Gunderson,
 
Garrett Gunderson  19:02  
that's good to be back. Man. Is really good. Love your energy. Has a nice intro.
 
Keith Weinhold  19:07  
Well, you give a lot of like, nice guidance to people that's somewhat different than they're used to hearing. You know, Garrett, I think a lot of the conventional guidance is, you know, it's not very far above Elementary School advice like, put your credit card in the freezer so you don't use it too often, but a lot of times you speak to either business owners or people that have already had some success, and I think a lot of your underlying mantra is, hey, you better live your best life now
 
Garrett Gunderson  19:35  
I kind of feel like you are your greatest asset, and if you starve out that asset because you don't feed it with knowledge, or you don't invest in yourself, or you don't gain the skills that really matter because you're so addicted to scrimping and sacrificing and building your balance sheet right, trying to build savings accounts and retirement plans and doing all you can to pay off that mortgage. Yeah, you could become a millionaire on paper. But will you live like one? Will you enjoy your. Life. What about all the memories that you miss along the way? What about having quality of life today and creating a life you don't want to retire from? The wealthy people, they didn't get that way because they shrunk their way there. They didn't get that way because they were amazing budgeters. They built businesses. They created value. They learned how to, you know, sell or speak or market or have business acumen that grow business or to hire people, and having those systems that actually impact more people or more deeply impact the people that they serve, because it's about value creation and their value creators. And I think this notion of just thinking, Oh, I could just trade time for money and set money aside. Man, that's a really painful way to get to a million dollars, but Northwestern Mutual, they just put out an article that said, 32 or 34% of millionaires don't feel wealthy, because if you have money tied up in an account that isn't kicking off cash flow, it doesn't feel like wealth. You can't spend that net worth. It's just a statement if you don't learn how to create cash flow. And I love financial independence, where people have cash flow from assets to cover their expenses now their lifestyle is covered from that cash flow. Now they can reinvest every active dollar into themselves and their quality of life, into more cash flowing assets, into taking trips along the way, not just waiting until they're too old to enjoy it.
 
Keith Weinhold  21:13  
You work with business owners all the time, and you've even worked with some ultra high net worth people that still seemed to scrimp and save. Do you think really, what is that the function of? Is it more of the wrong mindset or the wrong tactics when someone acts that way?
 
Garrett Gunderson  21:32  
It's a mindset that's really kind of handed down to them? Yeah, maybe from their parents or grandparents or from a different era, like there's people that were, you know, in the Great Depression, that then tells stories to their family about how tough it was, and you never know when that money could go away. So you got to hold tight, and it's a scarcity mindset. So one of the wealthiest clients I ever had, I mean, this was a guy who he was worth a lot of money, but you would never know it. I saw him on TV one day. I was like, Dude, he needs new clothes, and we found a strategy to save him a bunch of money. He was just buying his inventory with cash or like, let's buy it on a plum card, and you'll get cash back. I just said, Just take 10% of that cash back, which was over $100,000 a month, and spend it on yourself. He's like, Well, I wouldn't know to spend it on I'm like, Well, how about some new clothes to start with? He's like, Okay. And then the next month, he bought a nest system for his house. The next month he bought a sound system. Eventually, saved up enough money to buy a Tesla, which he really wanted, like it was money that was there for him, but it changed his entire paradigm, because now he had a quality of life. He was very philanthropic and donated money. He built massive businesses, but he never treated himself well. He'd never felt like it was okay to spend that money because of his upbringing, because the way that his parents viewed money and the way that their parents viewed money, and it was always something that felt scarce. So it felt like, okay, will this go away? And the reality was, we just found money in your couch cushions, essentially. So why not enjoy it along the way? He eventually bought a home that he loved on the water, that he loves the garden. I mean, it was like a total transformation with that one simple thing to help him heal his relationship with money, overcome scarcity, because he was already highly productive. He just had to break free from this budgetary mindset.
 
Keith Weinhold  23:09  
That's great. It was almost like, Dude, I can see it in you. Before we even talk. You got that code off the rack at Burlington. I swear you can do better than this. Come on, now
 
Garrett Gunderson  23:17  
 30 years ago, 30 years ago too. You know, it doesn't even fit anymore.
 
Keith Weinhold  23:23  
Well, you know, I recently dedicated a complete episode Garrett to the way I put it is that the risk of delayed gratification is denied gratification. Now, there are some good things to be said for delayed gratification, I think, especially when you're younger, or you're just starting out in the working world, and you just tried to cover rent for your apartment and you don't have much else. Delaying some gratification is good. You need to form capital. You need to get liquid. I try to avoid saying stacking savings, because that gets people in the mindset of becoming super savers sometimes, and they miss out on returns. But what I mean about the risk of delayed gratification, being denied gratification, if it's taken too great of an extent, is, you know, I'm talking about the guy where, when he was 24 he used to say, Oh, I'm going to visit the Galapagos Islands someday. That's what I want to do. But you can just tell by the time you talk to the dude, when he's 48 he begins to use the past tense for things he wanted to do, for example, then he might start saying, Oh, well, I guess I never did visit the Galapagos Islands. You know, you can tell with people when they use the past tense, and that's when you know that their future is not bigger than their past, and a lot of that is the reflection of their financial status.
 
Garrett Gunderson  24:40  
I got married at age 23 and the first two years, well, it was really like the first year and a half, maybe I was just such a miser. I gave my wife a $400 a month budget for an apartment, and we found out that there's places you don't want to live in Utah. I didn't know it, but she's like, is this what you want? And I was like, This doesn't feel like a safe neighborhood. And then you. Know, I was like, All right, maybe $600 I was still kind of really scarce. And my parents were like, Why don't you just live in our basement, rent free, and my wife's like, sex free. If you think that's where we're living, I'm gonna live in my parents basement, you know? Because I just thought money was something to save. So I saved me over 50% of my income. And a lot of people were like, that's amazing. Congratulations. Great job. And so I felt really good about it, and then I realized that my business wasn't growing as fast as this other person my age. I met him at an event, and a year later, he was doing better. And I was like, Dude, what's going on? I could hear it in your voice. I could hear like, you're just a different person. He goes, Oh, I'm doing two things. One, I just hired this guy, Steve D'Annunzio, and he changed my entire life. And I was like, I need to meet him. He's like, he happens to be here in Vegas. He's from Rochester. Introduced me. I hired him as my coach right away. I'm hearing all these people talk about strategic coach at the same event, and they had a booth. So I signed up for Strategic Coach, which meant I had to part with some of my money. Think it was $7,500 I hired Steve as a one on one mentor, and all of a sudden I was investing in myself, yeah. And I broke free from those chains of like, reduction and restriction into the game of production. And then I even had a situation where a woman called me out at the same event. This was a life changing event where she's like, I wonder what it's like living in a financial prison you built for your wife. It's like, Oh, see, that's what happened. I thought I was responsible, and building that responsibility that's actually building walls. And when I came home for that event, my wife and I started looking for our home. Within a few months, we found one. I bought a home. It was very easily within my means. I basically made as much as I paid for this house that we loved. We lived there for nine years. We built so many memories. You know, we had our two kids while we were there, I started host study groups, and that year, I grew my income by $170,000 with the coaching of strategic coach, Steve dnunzio And this woman, Nancy, calling me out. The next year, it grew by even more because the skills started to compound. I decided from that moment forward, I would spend at least $40,000 a year, which I might be able to reach for some people, but at least $40,000 a year on mentors. Is a guy named Alan. He writes my meal plans and my workouts, and I'm at 10% body fat because he knows exactly what they do. I do what he says. It was worth this $10,000 investment, because now I pay attention what I pay for, and I look at like if I'm my greatest asset, how can I create more energy? How can I create more value? How can I feel better about myself? How can I show up the very best version of I am, so I can deliver the most to the other people. And so I've always just been in amazing groups. I just got back from two different events in Beverly Hills around amazing people, learning incredible things that allow me to grow. I haven't spent a huge amount of money on a mentor last year to figure out something that I hadn't been able to figure out to this point. It's the same thing I did to become a speaker, to become a writer or even learn how to sell or market, you've got to invest in the skill, not just in the savings account. You grow yourself first, and then you grow your money. If you starve yourself out because you're in that miserly mindset, you're going to stunt your growth and never be fully fulfilled.
 
Keith Weinhold  27:56  
You're your own best investment. And yes, this stuff is the varying definition of investing in yourself. Don't live below your means. Grow your means and all of that.
 
Garrett Gunderson  28:05  
Grow your means and be more efficient within your means. I mean, the best way I know how to save is not overpay on tax, which 98% of business owners are doing that today. You know, don't overpay on interest, because you either restructure your loans, renegotiate your interest rates, reallocate underpouring funds to pay it off, or you remove investment drag. A lot of people have unnecessary fees and hidden commissions that drag on their investments. Or just design your insurance properly so it's more efficient. Those four i's, IRS, interest, investments and insurance show you how to keep more of what you make, take some of that money, build up your foundation so you have a peace of mind fund, so you have staying power, at least six months of liquidity and then invest more into yourself or learn how to create cash flow. This is the game the wealthy play. But the poor middle class, they think it's about paying off a mortgage and funding the retirement plan, and they will argue about it until it's too late, when they get there and now their homes paid off, but the property taxes are higher than their mortgage was 20 years ago, you know. Or they have home maintenance they have to take care of, or inflation has destroyed the value. Like if someone were to put away 100 grand and they wait for 30 years if they got 10% which the market did the last 30 years, if you reinvest dividends, they're going to have right around $1.7 million but if they have to pay 2% in fees, fiduciary fees, 12 b1 fees, which are marketing fees for the fund expense ratio, you know, the fees of maybe a retirement plan, and they now have 2% fees. It only goes to 1.1 million. Huge difference. And that 1.1 million if we account for inflation, even if we said inflation was low, like 2.7% over that 30 years. Well, by the time we pay for inflation and tax, guess what? The purchasing power value is like, 300 grand $300,000 that's a problem, and it's because they didn't learn to create cash flow. It's because they didn't learn to invest in themselves. It's because they relied completely on a market they don't control. I'm not saying the market is completely something to avoid. I'm saying we go in sequence. How do you grow your income for. First, then how do you keep more of the income you make with? You know, financial savvy and plugging leaks. Then learn to grow your money, but maybe growing your money. For some I like to think of like three dimensional assets, like real estate's three dimensional. It can grow in equity, it can create cash flow, and it has tax advantages. But my business is three dimensional, the more my business creates cash flow, without me, the more equity it has, and that business has major tax advantages. So most people are one dimensional, pay off a loan, put a money in retirement account. That's the poor, middle class. Wealthy people build a system where they've got three dimensional assets, equity, cash flow and tax savings. And that is a complete game changer, because then they can employ the buy borrowed I strategy, if you have assets like, you know, an individual stock, or if you have assets, like a piece of real estate or a business, you could borrow against it. There's no tax on that five for life, right? You keep refinancing. Or you can even do charitable trust to avoid the taxes upon the sell of those paying no tax when there's gains. Or you can pass it on to the next generation with a step up in basis, which means they get it at the full value and not have to pay the difference. And if you have life insurance, the life insurance will pay back the loan that tax free as well. So buy, borrow, die. I mean, it's a completely different thought process of defer taxes. If you defer taxes, I get it. You could do a Roth IRA or Roth 401. K Sure, that'll let you put after tax money in and grow it. But where's the cash flow? What's the underlying investment? How does it help you create financial independence? How does it help you does it help you grow your skills to become a better investor? We've been taught to be lazy, not that people are lazy. We've just been taught to be lazy with our money. We've been fed a narrative. I don't have the time, I don't have the skill, I don't have the interest, but I want to have it, so I just hand it over. And who do we hand it over to Keith Wall Street. Wall would you trust Wall Street? Like you flew to Frankfurt not long ago. Would you get on Wall Street airlines where they're like, hey, sometimes our planes go up, sometimes they go down. That would brand, and he'd feel inspired, right? Would you go to Wall Street, you know, hospital? Or like, hey, he lost one of your kidneys, and by loss, we stole it and resold it. You know, like, Wall Street doesn't have a brand. That's good. It's boiler room. It's Wolf of Wall Street. It's the movie Wall Street with Michael Douglas. You know, greed is good like yet that's what people put their money into. And you can go to any downtown and any major city, and guess who has the biggest buildings, insurance companies, banks and Wall Street investment companies. So you're taking the size of your home and shrinking it to build up their building and put money in their pocket. And their story is, it's because they're Ivy League, they're smart. They try to make it complicated, but you don't have to know most of the things you think you need to know about finance. The foundational things are important, how to protect your assets, how to design insurance, to transfer risk, how to have some liquidity, how to automate your savings. And then you focus like Warren Buffett would teach. He said, You know how people would become a better investor if they only had 20 investments they could make over their lifetime? He says, I don't diversify because I'm in the know. He's like, I'm a good businessman, therefore I'm a good investor and I'm a good investor because I'm a good businessman. I don't separate the two. Yeah, most people think he's a stock market investor. No, he buys out the companies in the stock market. Rarely does he have minority stakes in it. He does have some of that, maybe with Coca Cola and apple, but he bought a lot of companies outright, whether it was Geico, whether it was See's Candies, whether it was like he buys these companies, he's so far outperformed the stock market by billions of dollars from an index fund like what he has, versus someone that put the same money in an index fund, Warren has billions more from his investments than the person that put all their money in the index fund, even if it was the same amount. It's completely about strategy, not about luck.
 
Keith Weinhold  33:30  
Yeah, it's the Andrew Carnegie, put all your eggs in one basket and then watch your basket. Yeah? Watch that basket like a hawk. Totally. Yeah. I mean, stacks mutual funds, they have what I call those five simultaneous drags. If you think you're getting a 10% long term return over time, subtract out inflation, emotion, taxes, fees and volatility. What do you have left? Not much. But there's no friction there. It is just the easiest thing to do ever since decades ago, 401 K contributions begin to become automated throughout your paycheck, sometimes even automatically, automated
 
Garrett Gunderson  34:04  
values your permission opt out. It's easy. You have to opt out, right? It's Big Brother. You don't know what's best for you. And by the way, how crazy are four one K's. Part of the reason the market has gone up in value is because people consistently fund for one case, whether the market's going up or down, they're told $8 cost average. So that's artificially fueling the market. When we see the numbers, there's a buffet index, and it's like 2.9 times higher than what he's comfortable with, with the stock market, because of how overinflated the market is, partially due to inflation, partially because people put money in. But let's remember, why did 401, K's even come about? Because pensions failed. And by the way, these pensions failed and they had world class money managers managing these multi billion dollar pensions, but they didn't know about something called disinvesting, or didn't know enough about it. When the market goes down and pension money is owed, they still have to pull money out of the pension to pay the employee which disinvests, which pulls more money out of the account. So now instead of just being 10% down, they might be 17% down. And so even if the market comes back 10% it's 10% of only 83% of the money. So not even back to square one. And if it goes down a second year in a row, they're in real trouble. It starts to chip away at the principal, and they can't recover. And that happened to pensions, and they said, Oh, here, we can't handle these. We're going bankrupt. We're going to get rid of pensions. You take care of it. Well, guess what? Vanguard says, the average balance in a 401, k right now is $148,000 how someone's supposed to live on $148,000 even if you could get 10% that's $14,800 a year taxable, that's not going to do it. Even if you have a million dollars, where are you going to put the million dollars to get the return without risking it going down? Maybe you're going to be in treasuries at 5% that's $50,000 taxable per year. You're a millionaire on paper, but living poorly. That's why I'm here to call these things out. I think that my book Killing Sacred Cows, which was my original New York Times bestseller, which is probably how we met. Yeah, I rewrote it. I rewrote it, rereleased it in 2024 and I'll give people the audiobook. They just have to DM me on Instagram. Garrett B Gunderson and DM the word cows with Keith's name, cows and Keith or Keith and cows. I'll hook you up with the book for free, so you can learn about the nine financial myths. We're talking about some of them here, but there's also some comedy in there, so they can laugh after each chapter. I threw some comedy in there. You know, if you like my comedy, I'm not the funniest comedian. I'm just the funniest money comedian. That's the reality.
 
Keith Weinhold  36:33  
When we had the very inventor of the 401 k plan, Ted benna, come onto the show, he revealed to us that when 401 K plans rolled out, they were first called salary reduction plans. They had to scrap that name in order to foster participation. But reducing your salary is still principally what it does to you. You got to think about it that way and blow up some of these myths. But Garrett, you've already given a lot of great technical information about what someone can do, how someone can think differently. Bigger pictures, we're sort of winding down here. You know, when I'm thinking about this whole delayed versus denied gratification thing, how do you meter it out right throughout your life? I mean, what's your earmark your family legacy? How do you meter it out, right so you don't have too much or too little at the end of your life?
 
Garrett Gunderson  37:15  
I like to see this strategy of, like, what would the rockfellers do that I wrote about is, you know, the beginning before that strategy is you pay yourself first, which has always been around Richest Man in Babylon. Tons of books talk about it. My argument is you want to pay yourself at least 15% of your personal income, off the top, to a separate account. Once you get six months in that account, now you start to invest that money, but you build your stability with that peace of mind. And we want 15% because the luxury once enjoyed becomes a necessity. So you want more money in the future, not the future, not less propensity to you know, there's also, just like planned obsolescence, things break down. You have to repair them. Technological change, we're buying new technology that doesn't even exist. I have now subscriptions to a bunch of AI things that help me out, right? But I'm spending more money. There's also taxes, those could go up in the future, or 38 trillion in debt as we film this, which is a crazy number. And there's also inflation. If we give 3% to each of those five factors, that's 15% now again, use the four i's, IRS, interest, investments and insurance to find that money, not just budgeting. But then here's the magic. At least 3% of your income should go to a separate account called the Living wealthy account. That's your guilt free spending, value based spending account, so you enjoy some money along the way. These are the things that are the finer things in life that people might say are wasteful. You know, there's a book called unreasonable hospitality that talks about this, 11 Madison Avenue was the number one rated restaurant in the world. And, you know, will who wrote the book talked about they had 3% of their budget to just go wild on their customers dream making money, right? So to create the special experience in the restaurant, and even the bear, I think was season three, showed some of that process of how they do that. So I highly recommend taking a certain percentage. You get to enjoy along the way. It could be higher than 3% but start there, and you're going to feel better, you're going to have different energy, you're going to show up in a different way. And then from there, I just believe in having trust, so that your money's outside of your estate, and protecting financial predators so you own nothing but control everything. And I personally use life insurance. I use just standard over, you know, like basically properly structured, optimally funded whole life, so that death benefit will come in after I die. It allows me to spend more of my money and then have it replenished so I can enjoy more of my money along the way, because I know that death benefit will be there for my wife or even for my family trust after I'm gone, so I don't disinherit the people that I love.
 
Keith Weinhold  39:31  
Garrett Gunderson, he can take you through these steps, which he calls financially fit, to financially independent, and then finally to financially free. Tell us a little more about that going through those steps.
 
Garrett Gunderson  39:44  
So financial fitness means your financial house is in order. You've got everything handled properly, car insurance, homeowners, liability, disability, medical life insurance, your corporate structures as a business owner, how you pay yourself, your taxes the last three years and move. Moving forward your investments. It's like, you know what it's going on. You've improved your cash flow, and you're dialed in. You're as safe as you could possibly be. Then financial independence is, how can we create income, especially from a business that comes in when you don't, that's people, that's processes, that's technology, so that you can be involved, but you don't have to be involved. This is the part most people miss, yeah, and I think it's crazy. A lot of people have this notion they're just going to work so hard so they can sell their business one day, I'm like, What about just creating a business that you love so much you don't want to sell it? What about giving up the things that are burning you out and have the employees that can take care of that so you do the things that you love and then just enjoy life along the way, take some little trips, take some time off and come back in. The business grows up when you're away, they learn how to do things without you, and then you can still create value into that business. I sold the business in 2021 and really regretted it, because I kind of was so removed from the business. I kind of felt like it lost its soul and I didn't feel connected to it. So this time around, I started a business in July of 2024 I'm like, I'm only going to work with the P with the people I love, building things that I love, and I'm not going to let myself get burned out by doing too much. We're going to take two weeks in Hawaii coming up here in April, just enjoy some time together as a family. We do quarterly family retreats with my wife and kids. We do traditions with my family up at my cabin, like I want to have this great life where it's blurs the lines between work and play. I have a little quote from someone else that talks about that art of life is blurring the lines between work and play, but also just having complete play sometimes that there is no work. So I come back refreshed, relaxed, rejuvenated and ready to create. And so really, that financial independence gives you permission to swing for the fences and what you do, knowing your foundation is handled, knowing that your lifestyle is covered, from assets to create cash flow gives you work optional freedom. But instead of retiring, think, what could your biggest impact be like? Create the life you don't want to retire from. Create a vision so compelling you can dedicate your life to it and find that the win is actually in the work, not just the outcome. I think that is the elegance of we win when we play, and when we have more play in our life. We don't try to escape from something. And when you start something, you might have to do things you hate, but you can eventually delegate it, and then life becomes great. I mean, one of my early coaches, Dan Sullivan, who I mentioned, a strategic coach. He's in his 80s, still behemoth of creating value in the in the market. To listen to him, you know, he's phenomenal. He's made such a huge difference in my life, and he has no intent of retiring. He just gets smarter every year, adds more value, builds more infrastructure, and he's the one that taught me the merit of free days, just taking time off, taking time away. So, yeah, that's financial independence. Is cash flow, and then financial freedom is a state of mind. It's when money is no longer the primary reason or excuse you would do or not do something. It's a consideration, but it's no longer the consideration means that you have a healthy relationship with money. Money is an asset and an ally, not an enemy. You don't come from a place of scarcity. You come from a place of abundance. You can be more present with your family and doing what you do without feeling distracted. I think wealth is our ability to be present, not necessarily how much money we have in a bank account. I think we have a good amount of money in a bank account, and we can be present. That is like true wealth.
 
Keith Weinhold  43:12  
It harkens back to the John D Rockefeller, he who works all day has no time to make money. Rockefeller would have said, you can architect a wealth plan if your head is down on the assembly line, that means gradually move your offer. It's from trading your time for dollars over to owning assets that pay you to own them. Garrett's comedy special is called the American Ream. There's no D in that word, R, E, A, M. You can look that up, Garrett. It's been enlightening as always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.
 
Garrett Gunderson  43:43  
Hey man, good to be back.
 
Keith Weinhold  43:51  
Always. A lively conversation with Garrett, besides some great mindset perspective, he's really good at saving you tax and setting you up with asset protection. Though he's not as real estateish as me, he's pretty savvy. For example, He's aligned on the fact that, for example, say you have an 80k debt. Well, it doesn't necessarily mean that it makes sense for you to pay that off sometimes it does, but what happens to your net worth anytime you pay off an 80k debt, well, let's see. You've reduced your asset side by 80k and you've reduced your debt side by 80k so your net worth is the same, and retiring the debt means that you might have lost leverage, lost cash flow and lost tax advantages, all at the same time on Instagram, send a DM with the two words, Keith Cows to Garrett B Gunderson, and he'll hook you up with his book for free next week on the show, we go deep on does America really have a housing shortage with an expert analyst. Until then, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream. 
 
Speaker 4  45:01  
Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively
 
Keith Weinhold  45:29  
The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth. Building, get richeducation.com

Keith digs into what's really going on with apartments now that values in many markets have dropped 20–40%. You'll hear why larger multifamily properties have been hit so much harder than one-to-four unit rentals, and what that means for both current owners and new buyers.
"The Apartment King," Brad Sumrok, joins the conversation to share how recent economic shifts, financing structures, and market forces have reshaped the apartment landscape—and why he believes we may be near a key turning point in the cycle.
You'll also learn how investors are approaching deals differently today, what makes certain markets and property types more attractive right now. 
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Complete episode transcript:
 
Keith Weinhold  0:01  
welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold us. Apartment Building values have fallen 2030, even, 40% over the past few years. Investors lost millions. What are all the reasons that it happened? And when will apartments turn around? I'm joined by the apartment king today on get rich education.
 
Corey Coates  0:26  
Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold, writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com
 
Keith Weinhold  1:09  
the same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours. Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your prequel and even chat with President chailey Ridge personally while it's on your mind, start at Ridge lending group.com that's Ridge lending group.com you
 
Corey Coates  1:40  
you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.
 
Keith Weinhold  1:59  
Welcome to GRE from Monterrey, California to Monterrey, Mexico and across 188 nations worldwide. America's favorite shaved mammal on a microphone has got his slack. John, act back on track for another wealth building week with you. I'm Keith Weinhold. This is get rich education, and I'm still not wearing a pair of Dockers. We all know that the one to four unit space single family homes, up to four plexes have held under their values despite soured affordability, but five plus unit apartment buildings are a drastically different story. We're going to talk about just how much value they've lost recently, and the reasons why it's about more than just the interest rates doubling and tripling that began in 2022 Today's guest is an apartment educator. His students have had both losses and wins over time. I'll ask about both, because adversity is where you get the lessons now today, you might buy an apartment building at a steep discount compared to what it sold for five years ago. And who might you buy an apartment from today, it might not be the type of seller that you're thinking about because of owners defaulting you might now be buying it from a bank that had to basically repossess it. Yeah, you might try to buy it from a lender at 60% of the loan amount. Well, a lender doesn't want to do a 40% write down, so they're going to try to get more and see. That's how this could practically look today for an apartment owner that survived the crisis and is still standing today. They're asking themselves, now, why would I sell at a discount if I don't have to? So they're probably going to try to hold on. And then, of course, the tenants in these apartments don't know that any of this is going on now. I own a lot of single family rental homes myself, also apartment buildings in the one to one and a half million dollar range is where I've played, and often that ends up being eight to 12 units, because in that space, I don't need partners to invest in assets of that size. One to $2 million is also small enough so that you're not competing with institutional money and other players. Today, I'll tell you what I did with some of those buildings myself when interest rates reset about four years ago, and before you and I wrap up the show today, I've got something to tell you about what's coming in future. GRE episodes here stuff that's really unexpected as the apartment King waits in the wings. One last thing to tell you about, like I mentioned to you recently, investors say that they want an opportunity, but what they really want is certainty. Once certainty arrives, the opportunity. Is gone. 
 
Keith Weinhold  5:01  
Our GRE live event last Thursday was a success. It is about how central Florida is the most compelling housing market right now, with the builder offering rate buy downs as low as 3.75% and, you know, I just ran the numbers on something, and I can hardly believe this. All right, right. Now owner occupied mortgage rates are near 6% this means investment property rates are almost 7% with the rate by down to 4% here's how your cash flow looks with a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on a 300k loan with a 7% rate, your p and i payment is 1996 at a 4% rate. It's just 1432, this is a reduction of $564 per month, a whopping payment difference. That's really the difference between treading water and stacking cash flow on these brand new build properties that we're talking about here in Central Florida. So talking about opportunity and certainty, that is a big measure of both. Yeah, before I ran the numbers, I didn't realize that the spread was this wide. With high demand for these properties, the builder does have some more available, a long term fixed rate of around 4% it should be up for you now you can see the limited time replay of GRE, freshest live event at grewebinars.com, in case you want to look into This again, grewebinars.com let's discuss the apartment market. Foreign apartment building values have fallen at 20% 30% even 40% over the past few years, depending on the market that they're in today, we're going to learn how bad it is, why it happened, and if that actually creates an opportunity here in the late 2020s, decade, our guest is known as the apartment king. He is the number one nationally known educator and mentor for apartment investing. He started with a bang in 2002 by making his first ever real estate investment, not a four Plex like I did, but a 32 unit apartment building, and he's now owned and invested in over 11,000 units and over 1 billion in assets under management. He's received awards like the naa independent owner of the year, and he's the star of the massively popular in person events that he puts on, which you'll learn about soon. Hey, it's been several years. Welcome back to the show. Brad sumrock,
 
Brad Sumrok  7:46  
hey, Keith. It's really good to be on again. Nice to be here.
 
Keith Weinhold  7:50  
Brad and I were together in person last month, and we also talked physical fitness. Then Brad is one of the fittest guys you'll ever meet in person. He just looks fantastic. We want to hear about your apartment forecast shortly. Brad, let's talk about the hard stuff. First, you've endured adversity since we last had you here several years ago. Tell us about that.
 
Brad Sumrok  8:14  
 Well, look, I mean, I think anyone that's been serious about investing in apartments over the last five years. And I'll also say it this way, anyone who did a deal and say 21 the middle of 21 till probably the end of 2022 it's very likely that that property is worth less today than than it was when we bought it. So that, in itself, has created, you know, adversity, because I got into the business in 2002 and the market went up until 2008 and we went through a downturn in 2008 nine and 10, as is, I'm sure you're aware. And then the market went up again until around 2021, mid year. And then, due to so many reasons, and I could go into those reasons, but let me just just cut to the chase. That you alluded to is we had another downturn, and so the downturn, you know, impacts property values, it impacts confidence, it impacts investor appetite to do deals. It impacts just about everything related to the business, on the investment side, and the other business that I'm in, which is the seminars, the events and the mentoring. So it's been a big downturn, and we could go into those, you know, into the reasons why, and I'm sure you'd like to know my take on that. But now is a great time, because things are recovering, and one of the things Tony Robbins teaches Keith is pattern recognition. It's like I've been through two downturns, and I could see the patterns, and it occurs to me that we're at or near the bottom of a cycle. So like it's also a good time to be gearing up.
 
Keith Weinhold  9:50  
Now, many realize but for those uninitiated on this, the one to four unit space really didn't feel much pain starting in 2022 so much of that is time. Two people get long term fixed interest rate debt on the one to four unit property, but it's shorter term debt on five plus unit apartment buildings. So when interest rates went up, people soon had to pay those higher rates. They were underwater. That's really the genesis of so much of the apartment building pain.
 
Brad Sumrok  10:19  
Well, and I would say, look, it was, I'm going to throw a bunch of things at you here. So we had the pandemic, right? And during the pandemic, people got paid to stay home from work, right? The government printed, what, $5 trillion worth of money, right? And so that kicked off what became a period of, like, very high inflation. And you know, the published number was 9% but I think a lot of people experience certain items that were a lot more than 9% like, for example, for sure, in 2022 when we bought a 286 unit property, you know, we were able to replace all the appliances inside of a unit in The kitchen, you know, for $1,800 and even today it's like $3,200 so that's a little bit more than 9% and so we had that. So we had the printing of money, we had inflation, we had variable rate debt. Why did people do variable rate debt? The first thing I'll say is there is a place for variable rate debt. But what happened in 2021 and 2022 is the fixed rate lenders, which are typically the government sponsored agencies Fannie and Freddie. They were still lending money, but because of their criteria for lending, if you would go with one of those loans, you would get like 50% leverage the shorter term lenders that would give you the three year loans, you can still get like 75 to 80% leverage. So the vast amount of people that were buying anything in 2021 and 2022 I mean, I'm not just talking about myself. I'm talking about people with 2030, 4050, 70,000 doors all over the country, they were buying with short term debt. And historically, short term debt performs at or better than long term debt. I mean, think about it, when you get a long term, 10 year fixed rate loan and multifamily you have prepayment penalties. You know, when the market's constantly going up like it did, from 2012 to 2022 you could get that fixed term loan. You could pay it off early, you could pay the seven figure prepayment penalty, and you could still make lots and lots of money, and that's what people were doing. So when you bake in the prepayment penalties on long term debt, you know short term debt is oftentimes the better option. Well, nobody saw the Fed raising rate 16 times in 12 months. And look, I don't care what anybody says, Nobody predicted it. If they had predicted it, they would be probably the richest person in the world right now, right nobody saw a comment like, there may have been some people that said, hey, yeah, this is going to happen, or this is going to happen. But what actually happened with the Fed rates over a very short period of time was unprecedented. Unprecedented means it never happened before. So it's not something you could anticipate or something anyone can model. Okay? And so what that did is most of us had what's called an interest rate cap, which is an insurance policy that if the rates go up too much, that yours is capped. But the problem with those rate caps is they're only good for like, two years, right? So we're buying these deals in 2021 and we're getting short term debt, which is a three year debt. And in two years, in 2023 the rate cap expires, and now the rates are 9% instead of 3% and when we bought the deal, the rate cap insurance was $40,000 and now it's a million dollars. And so you're in a very awkward, unfriendly financial situation. And it wasn't just that. So it wasn't just inflation, it wasn't just interest rates. And many of us sung belt markets, specifically Texas and Florida, which historically have been some of the best markets to invest in, because of migration and no taxes, and then landlord and business friendly environments. Well, these states also suffered a lot of named storms, with, you know, hurricanes and wind storms and hail storms and so in these markets, at the same time, we had rising rates. At the same time, we had massive inflation. Now we also have insurance rates doubling or even tripling in some occasions. And then the final thing was, during the pandemic, a lot of the multifamily projects that were in the middle of being built, these development projects, they all slowed down. People couldn't work. And so back in 2020, or after we're fully recovered from the pandemic, some of these markets, like Nashville and Austin and Dallas and Houston and Phoenix, they got deluged Keith with new supply coming on, like a disproportionate amount of new supply. So there's like five. Five things that contributed to multifamily being really tough in the last few years. And so it wasn't just people with short term debt that had challenges. It was probably just about anybody that bought a deal within an 18 month timeframe that I outlined before that just really experienced challenges, and some of those people are still in deals, right? And so let's just take a deal that's, you know, a $10 million deal with a $7 million loan. Well, that deal right now might be only worth 7 million, yeah, and that's the opportunity. So the owner that has that deal may get punched in the face, so to speak, you know, by the market, and they may lose their equity in that deal, but the borrower coming in, or the buyer coming in, like one of my mentees right now, had a deal that was listed at 11 million, and he's picking it up for seven, which is, like, at or below the current loan value. So one buyer group's loss is the new buyer group's opportunity, if that makes sense
 
Keith Weinhold  16:03  
 right? 100% there's nothing unusual at all about the mortgage rate levels that began to go higher about four years ago. The unusual part, and Brad has touched on it, is the rate of increase, with mortgage rates doubling or tripling in a short period of time, within about a year or so, but yeah, it's a great point. It's about more than the mortgage rates. It's about increasing insurance costs and increasing expenses of all types, like you talked about with the appliances there, and then, even if you were able to weather all that as an apartment building owner, with all of the supply coming on to the market, when supply exceeds demand, we know what happens to price, and we also know that you can't raise rents very much with all of this supply coming on the market, but the supply of new apartment buildings, that inflow, that wave, is beginning to die down, because builders got the memo quite a while ago that they need to stop building at such a fast pace in places like Florida and Texas and you know, Brad, there are a lot of asset classes that have been beaten up lately. We can always point to a few. You can look at Bitcoin or nfts or even commercial office space. Now those assets might bounce back, but they don't have to, because no human needs those things. But I expect apartments to bounce back because having a place to live is a primordial Maslow and human need. It's almost inevitable. In fact, shelter is at the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So a bounce back has almost got to happen. Yeah.
 
Brad Sumrok  17:46  
Look, it's becoming the big word right now in politics. Right is affordability. And so when you look at affordability, if you take a median priced home in this country of say, $400,000 I don't know if that's the actual median, but maybe it's around 400 420,000 100, $420,000 yes, to buy that home. And who's going to buy a $420,000 home? It's going to be a working class family making 60 to 70,000 a year, right? They could rent a median priced apartment unit for $1,800 a month, or they could pay a 20% or a 10% down payment on a $400,000 homes, and they need 40 to 80,000 down right, or maybe less, but they still need a down payment and that p i, t i, the principal, interest, tax and insurance is going to be around $3,100 okay, so there's a $1,300 per month gap, and that's a big, big gap for that working class family. And so where are they going to live? Like we're becoming more and more of a renter nation? Keith, and the statistics that I read say that only 27% of American families can even qualify to get a mortgage, yeah, on a $400,000 home. So we're becoming more and more and more of a nation of renters by necessity. And so the demographics like look, all markets are not equal. You got to know what's going on in your market. But there are markets, ie locations, geographies that have even a higher affordability gap. You know, some markets have a 2000 a month or a $2,500 a month affordability gap. So you're going to find more and more people renting in these markets.
 
Keith Weinhold  19:37  
Yes, there is a premium to ownership opening up that gap, and that's why we have this wave of renters that's really already begun. In about the last year, the American homeownership rate has fallen from 66% to 65% 1% doesn't sound like much, but that already means that we have 1.3 million new renters. We're going to talk to Brad some more, including about. His apartment market forecast you're listening to get rich education. Our guest is apartment King. Brad sumrock, more when we come back, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, 
 
Keith Weinhold  20:09  
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Keith Weinhold  20:45  
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Hal Elrod  21:58  
this is Hal Elrod, author of The Miracle Morning, and listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.
 
Keith Weinhold  22:13  
Welcome back to get rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. We're talking about a sector we have not talked about very much lately because it's been in rather moribund condition, but we are beginning to turn the corner where there are more opportunities in apartment building investing, because it's been beaten down an awful lot. And Brad, that plays right in to your apartment forecast. So tell us about some of the highlights of your apartment forecast.
 
Brad Sumrok  22:38  
Yeah, sure. And one of the things that I want to share with you, Keith, is that, you know, back in the peak of the market, the market peaked, say, at the end of 21 early 22 there were so many investors that were in multifamily or that wanted to be in multifamily. And the other thing that caused this so called, you know, downturn that I didn't mention before is, let's take this $10 million deal. If a property was listed at $10 million you'd literally have 30 to 40 buyer groups pursuing that deal, bidding up the price. Yeah. And so a $10 million Listing would sell for 11 and a half million Okay, now what I'm seeing is that same $10 million deal might sell for a seven to 8 million and you might be the only buyer going after the deal. Wow. And how do I know? Because you said, like, I run a an investor community and and I have active multifamily buyers, and I coach them, and I look at their deals, and this is what's happening. And the other reason I know is I sold two of my deals personally in 2025 and both of the deals that I sold, I bought in 2015 where we had 10 year fixed rate debt. So we didn't sell because we had a three year loan. We needed to sell because we had a 10 year loan due. And look, first thing I'll say is I made money, because over that 10 year period, values did go up. They peaked in 2022 and they came back down that because I bought it so long ago. That's the one lesson that I think people also want to understand, is over the long term, the values always tend to go up, but there are short term ups and downs that one would need to be aware of. But when I sold these two deals like I didn't have many buyers one deal in particular. I mean, I had eight buyers going after the deal, but only one was anywhere close to what I wanted. So I was negotiating with myself, you know, telling the buyer and his broker, hey, you know the other guys are here, and you got to come up on price and you got to come up on terms. But truthfully, I was bluffing, because I didn't have anybody that was coming up on price or coming up on terms. And so part of why I'm answering this way is when you look at the forecast, one thing that that I want people to know is that those. Of us that are in the business now and that have our pencils up, and we're underwriting deals, and we're making offers, like I used to teach Keith, don't make lowball offers, because you'll develop a reputation of being that guy or that borrower or that buyer that submits lowball offers, right? And word will get around in that market? Well, right now, like low ball offers are expected, and I would encourage people, let's just say you make an offer that whatever the deal pencils out to. So if you know how to underwrite deals correctly, and they're offering 10 million as a listing price, and you're coming up at seven or 7.5 don't be bashful to make the offer, and you may be the only buyer in the game. So that's one thing is like the competition that I'm seeing right now on the buyer side is not a lot of competition, and that's definitely shifted to a buyer's market. So people need to know that. The other thing I would say, on the macro level, is there's still a lot of uncertainty out there, and the uncertainty is kind of becoming like what I would call a new normal. You know? I'll speak for myself. When Trump was elected and at the end of 2024 I thought it was going to be amazingly well for all of us real estate investors, right? And there are some things that have been like the big, beautiful bill that restores 100% bonus depreciation like this is a really good thing, but you know, the tariffs, the immigration policies, some of the things that he's doing, you know, they have mixed impact for us and our in the economy and in real estate and in multifamily. And the thing is, when he first started doing that again, like lenders, they didn't know how to price debt, like, what's going to happen with tariffs, what's going to happen with ice what's going to happen with immigration, you know? But now that we're a year in to his second term, I can tell you a couple things. Debt is back. Lenders are lending. They're confident. Lenders are issuing debt like you can get 70 to 75% of your acquisition funded by a commercial lender. The government agencies are lending. Freddie Mac is lending. Fannie Mae is lending, and they have a mandate to lend 20% more money in 2026 than they did in 2025 so that bodes well for people that want to get, you know, affordable workforce housing, which is my specialty, also known as Class B and Class C housing. So the lenders are lending like, there's a lot of debt out there. One of the challenges is the equity. There's a lot of institutional equity. But if you're going to the retail investor who got into the business three to five years ago. They don't want to hear about your next deal right now, they're wondering about, hey, what about the deals that I'm in? Right? So one of the things that I'm doing, Keith is, and I think, you know, this is like, you know, I build up a huge investor community from 2012 to 2022 and I did it by traveling the country, speaking at conferences, sponsoring trade shows, talking about the benefits of investing in apartment buildings, how it changed my life, how it enabled me to retire from a six figure income in just three years, and how I've helped many, many other people Do the same, and also just sharing experience today, every asset class, every 10 to 15 years is going to go through a correction. And so where we're at now. And I wasn't the only one on the forecast. I brought in John Chang who is the senior intelligence officer at Marcus and millichep, one of the biggest commercial real estate firms in the country, and he presented about 20 or 30 slides that by and large were very bullish on where we're at in the market cycle. Why now is a great time to be looking at apartment buildings, a lot of the same things that I've been talking about. Prices are down. It's a buyer's market. We have a huge affordability issue. More and more people are becoming renters, and so what I'm committed to do, Keith and I don't know if I shared with you my travel schedule, like when we met each other last month, but I'm on the road every single week going to another city, talking about where I see us right now in the market, and why people should be looking at deals and making offers right now. Because to me, you know, Warren Buffett said it best. He's like, you want to be fearful when everybody else is being greedy, and you want to be greedy when everybody's being fearful. And right now, people are on the sidelines. They're waiting for some green light, like for the Wall Street Journal to come out and say, Hey, now's a good time, you know? I mean, look, Trump, just the point of the new Fed chair, right? And so we know interest rates are going to go down like that's one of his goals, and the guy that he appointed is going to lower rates. So we're looking at a future, a very near future, where we have lower rates, and lower rates is going to create more demand, again, for people that want to buy. I invest in apartments now, look, if you wait another year, I still think it's going to be a good time, but I think we have a better time right now.
 
Keith Weinhold  30:10  
I sold one apartment building in 2022 for about $1 million and I sold another one of my apartment buildings in 2023 for about $1 million I had bought those in 2013 with 10 year balloon loans, so I was enjoying that nice fixed rate as late and as long as I could, until 2022, nine years and 2023, 10 years before the rate went up on me. But of course, my new buyer had to pay that rate, so it limited the amount that they could offer for it. However, to your point about investing for a long time horizon, I still had profits on those nine and 10 year holds, but yeah, to your point, Brad about the looser lending, this is huge. I read a summary of the latest national Multifamily Housing Council meeting, and one of the biggest takeaways that came out of that meeting is that there is abundant debt available. It's in increasingly attractive terms. And a lot of people think about mortgages, and they just think about the rates, and you should that's certainly important, but they don't think as much about the propensity for others to lend. How loose, or how tight are those standards? They're loose, yeah.
 
Brad Sumrok  31:25  
And, I mean, look, the first deal I did in 2002 the interest rate was 6.35% the rates right now are less than that, you know, as of the date of this recording. So, you know, I always talk about a base case of a $10 million deal. It may seem large to you or to people listening, but like in my world of syndication, where we're not just looking at the real estate piece, but learning how to raise money to buy real estate so we could have a bigger property that's professionally managed and become a true business owner like Robert Kiyosaki talks about, do you want to be self employed? I tell my students, buy a six Plex. Do you want to own an apartment business by 60 units and hire a management company? So when I'm talking about this $10 million deal, you know, you can get a $7 million loan right now for probably in the mid 5% and it would be non recourse, and you could probably get three years of interest only, meaning for the first three years, you're going to have a higher cash flow. So like, this is a really good loan compared to 2021 when we could get 3% debt. It's not but remember that 3% loan was a short term loan. You know, it wasn't a 10 year fixed rate loan, it was a short term loan, and we all saw what happened with that when they raised rates so many times in such a short period. So the fixed rate debt is very competitive based on, like, the long term, 20 year average, and it's lower than it was when I started.
 
Keith Weinhold  32:55  
Well, we've been talking about elements of your apartment market forecast, and of course, that's going to inform your Buy Box. Brad, you mentor students constantly and oftentimes we think about a Buy Box. We think about then in terms of geographic market, but as we look for an opportunity, we also might think about some other things in your Buy Box, for example, new build versus vintage build. So with all of this traveling you do, and you're in the markets, and you're informing students, and you're looking at students prospective deals as well. But tell us more about what a good buy box is for the near term in apartment buildings.
 
Brad Sumrok  33:36  
Yeah. So look like what is in the buy box, right? So one is going to be your location. And so, you know, how do I select a good location? Just some tips and strategies around that is, I look for landlord and business friendly environments. In other words, if the tenant doesn't pay, do they get to stay or not, you know, so I like to be in market so that they don't pay, that we could legally, you know, not have them consume our product for a long period of time. So I also look at things like job growth and population growth, affordability gap. New supply is a percentage of inventory, you know, the new supply coming online in a diversified economy. So, like, you want to get your geographies nailed down. Like, where you buy matters, like, there's no substitute to I would rather pay more for a property in a location that meets that criteria than less for a property that doesn't. Yeah. So geography is important. You want to pick your property size, like, how many units, or what's the price point. Okay? And this is huge, because if you're gonna buy your own deal with your own money, which is another reason I prefer syndication. Let's say you have pick a number, 100,000 to invest. Like you can only buy a $300,000 property, two units somewhere, three units somewhere, you know. Or zero units somewhere, right, right? So if you have expanded your you know, your mind and your skill set to do a syndication 100,000 doesn't limit you to your own money, you know. And then I would say, Well, what is a great size for a first time syndicator is I would target somewhere around 60 to 80 units, and at 100,000 a unit, which is a ballpark price for maybe a nice B class property or high C Class property, and a market that meets the criteria that I outlined earlier. You know, you're looking at, say, a six to $8 million property. And so what you could do from there, Keith is, you could say, Okay, well, you know, this is why, like in my educational course, I use a $10 million property, because the numbers are easy. But even just say, Well, I'm going to do an $8 million property, you'd say, Okay, I need two to 3 million down, depending on the debt, right? And then I'm going to get a the balance in a loan, you know, because you could get a 70 to 75% loan. So then you ask, Well, where am I going to get to 2 million, right? If I have 100 I need $1.9 million and so then you got to start thinking about like, do I have access to people or work or in the neighborhood or at the community or at the church, you know, or do I go to masterminds and conferences and meetup groups like, where I saw you Keith last month, like, there's a lot of investors there with a lot of money, right? And some of them are looking to be passive investors. And so, you know, there's a whole nother conversation around, you know, raising capital. And if you can't raise capital, then you may want to bring in some people on your GP team that could help you raise capital, as long as you're following, like the SEC compliance and again, that's another discussion. That's the importance of having the buy box so you have your geography, your property size, your property class. You know, again, if you just want the new construction stuff. There's some people out there, like big name, famous people, that are highlighting their 800 unit a class deals that they're buying. And of course, like you or I that are just getting started, can't go buy that deal. And so why? You know the institutions are going after the large A class properties in the best areas. And so where I've made my niche Keith, and what I would recommend most people start is start with the older vintage properties, start with the 1970s properties, and then maybe work your way up to the 1980s and 1990s properties. And why is this is because the institutions don't want those properties, and they're still able to be professionally managed. Like, if you go and buy 100 unit C Class property, as long as it's not in a bad neighborhood with, like, high crime or whatever like that. Like, these are very honest, hard working, working class people that need a clean, safe and functional place to live, and you'll be able to get better returns on a C or A B class, also known as like the cap rate. And again, that's another discussion, but you'll be able to get a better return on an older vintage property than you would on a vintage property. And you're not competing with the institutions, but you're also not competing with the mom and pops, because the mom and pops are going to take that 100,000 they have and go buy a duplex. You know, they're not going to want to syndicate a deal. They're not going to want to have partners. They're not going to want to deal with the so called complexities of buying a company. And that's what buying an apartment community is, Keith, it's buying a company. You're buying a business that has an income stream already being generated those customers, they're called residents. They're called tenants, you know, but if you just go upstream from buying real estate or buying an apartment building, we're buying a cash flow producing business that's existing, that's in place, and then our job is to figure out how to run it better and more efficiently. You the
 
Keith Weinhold  39:04  
You the listener, you might have access to, say, 500k in equity that's sitting in your existing properties. And some of these numbers that Brad and I are throwing around are rather large, $10 billion but one of the biggest epiphanies that I think your students have is that doesn't need to be much of your own money. We're talking about what's called the capital stack to take down a $10 million apartment building. Maybe you borrow seven and a half million of that. Maybe you raise 2 million of that from your other investors in the syndication, and then you put your 500k into the deal, and there you have $10 million in order to make that purchase. But yes, that does involve a learning curve and the SEC rules and all that. But the big takeaway here is you don't need much of your own money. You can leverage other people's money, even for the down payment. And Brad, you're also an expert at showing people how to pay almost. Zero tax, which is another discussion unto itself, but some of your students start with zero experience, and within a few short years, I mean, you've had hundreds of people that have either retired early or increased their net worth by over a million dollars. A lot of success stories,
 
Brad Sumrok  40:17  
yeah, look, I mean, I started with no previous real estate investing experience. My experience was going to college, studying hard, getting decent grades, becoming an engineer, you know, being fired once, being laid off once, and reading Robert Kiyosaki books that motivated me to to go out and seek specialized education. And I think it was Jim Rohn that said formal education, like degree could get you a job, and specialized education like you can get in a conference or a mastermind or a mentorship program. And that's also how I started. I went to a weekend workshop back in 2001 and I bought the mentorship program. And boy, I'm glad I did, because, you know, that's how I got into my first 62 units. So you don't need to have experience. What you need to have is a powerful reason, a powerful why? Why do I want to be financially free? Like apartments is just a vehicle. I didn't choose apartments because I love departments. I choose departments because they cash flow, they go up in value, and you have amazing depreciation benefits.
 
Keith Weinhold  41:23  
Yeah, I'm the same. I don't love apartments in a way. I don't love real estate. I love what these things do for me 
 
Brad Sumrok  41:30  
exactly. Yeah? So, like, you don't have to have experience. In the other category, of people that have come into my community that don't have apartment experience, a lot of them have real estate experience, Keith, that are doing, like, single family homes, short term rentals, or maybe smaller, multi unit deals. And they listen to a show like this, and they're like, huh, I want to transition from doing these smaller types of assets with my own money and self managing to scaling into a syndication.
 
Keith Weinhold  42:03  
Brad has taken countless people from get rich education to got rich education. His core values are faith, finance, fitness, family and fulfillment. He is committed to helping people experience not just financial success, but personal fulfillment, purpose, contribution, freedom and Brad and his investor community have contributed over $1 million to charity. Is really the person you want to learn from if you want to think about going bigger with multifamily apartment buildings. This has been great, Brad. Let our audience know how they can connect with you and learn more?
 
Brad Sumrok  42:42  
Yeah, sure. So I would say this is where I should just be very clear here, okay, but I'm gonna give a couple options, because that's what I'm so of course, there's a website which is my first and last name.com, B, R, A, D, S, U, M, R, O, k, for those of you on social media, I respond to my own social so you'll find me again. B, R, A, D, S, U, M, R, O, K, on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
 
Keith Weinhold  43:13  
Brad, it's been so valuable. It seems like American apartment buildings are in for redemption story here. It's been great having you back on the show.
 
Keith Weinhold  43:29  
Brad and I both emphasize physical fitness, and we chatted about that a good bit when we were together last month. I think he looks better than me. To summarize, the reasons for this historic collapse in apartment building values. It was the combination of soaring interest rates, massive inflation, spiking insurance costs, construction soared, and it created an oversupply, and that oversupply still is not absorbed. In fact, according to the outlet apartment list, the National multifamily vacancy rate recently hit 7.2% that's the highest in the history of the index, which dates back to 2017 and that's chiefly due to apartment oversupply. Have apartments really hit the bottom? Brad just said, we're at or near the bottom, and it's a good time to be gearing up as far as what's coming. To give you an idea of new apartment supply, what takes about two years from construction start to completion. And now you can't just have all US apartment construction come to a complete stop. You have to keep people working. And there are almost 400 MSAs in the United States, so you couldn't coordinate a complete ceasing of construction across every area. So how about the level of new construction starts in apartment units today, and the way that HUD counts it is the number of units started in buildings of five plus units the recent peak. Was about 600,000 annually in 2023 and today it's closer to 400,000 there it is that slowing pace of new apartment construction. If you jump into multifam, be careful of properties with deferred maintenance, because understand that you have a lot of underfunded owners Now Brad can tell you specifically what to look out for his rat race to retirement event is March 28 and 29th in Dallas. It's a two day hands on workshop. You'll learn how to find apartment deals, how to underwrite deals, how to raise capital management and your exit. Discover how you can retire in five years or less by owning apartments again. His website is Brad sumrock.com 
 
Keith Weinhold  45:49  
coming up on future episodes here on the get rich education podcast. We're about to go on a run. The next stretch of GRE is loaded. We've got fresh topics with some game changing monolog content that I'm going to share with you new guests, distinguished experts, we're going to break down an innovative way to sell properties that could completely change how you think about your exit strategy of the 50 US states. I'm going to discuss some awful states to invest in, including ones with population loss. On another episode, a distinguished subject matter expert and I are going to dive deep on does America really have a housing shortage, not in apartments which are oversupplied, but is there a shortage in the one to four unit space? That's our topic, because you probably heard contradictory information in the media about whether there's a shortage or not, and then some outlets say there's a housing shortage of 2 million units. Others, 10 million. They're all over the place. We're going to sort it out on an upcoming episode. Does America really have a housing shortage? Then the youngest guest to ever appear on the show will be with us. He's a 19 year old college student that has a real estate investing related major, and since last year, he and I have befriended each other. He was born in about 2006 so it'll be interesting to see how he views the investing world and what they teach him about real estate investing in college today, he is probably the most impressive teenager that I've ever met in my life. Then six weeks from now, we will have an epic get rich education podcast episode 600 on a subject as paradoxical and complete with a GRE contrarianism That builds real wealth, debt is the American dream will be episode 600 if you're serious about building wealth, be sure to follow or subscribe to the show. We are going on a run. If you know someone in your life who needs to think differently. If you know one investor who's still waiting for perfect conditions. This will help them tap the Share button and tell them about the show until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your daydream.
 
Unknown Speaker  48:14  
Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.
 
Keith Weinhold  48:42  
The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get richeducation.com

Keith explores how a shift in mindset can change the way you build wealth, why so many new landlords are entering the market, and what recent economic trends could mean for future rents. 
You'll also hear how one Florida investor is navigating a changing housing landscape, and learn about a timely opportunity in one of the country's fastest‑growing real estate markets—all without needing to be a hands-on landlord.
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Complete episode transcript:
 
Keith Weinhold  0:01  
Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, the risk of delayed gratification is denied gratification. There's a new wave of landlords. Wages are rising faster than both inflation and home prices. Learn what that's going to mean for rents. Hear the voices of five different Federal Reserve chairs, then GRE announces our biggest event of the year, and you're invited today on get rich education.
 
Corey Coates  0:32  
Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com
 
Keith Weinhold  1:16  
mid south home buyers, with over two decades is the nation's highest rated turnkey provider, their empathetic property managers use your return on investment as their North Star. It's no wonder smart investors line up to get their completely renovated income properties like it's the newest iPhone headquartered in Memphis, with their globally attractive cash flows, mid south has an A plus rating with the Better Business Bureau and 4000 houses renovated, there is zero markup on maintenance. Let that sink in, and they average a 98.9% occupancy rate with an industry leading three and a half year average renter term. Every home they offer you will have brand new components, a bumper to bumper, one year warranty, new 30 year roofs. And wait for it, a high quality renter in an astounding price range, 100 to 150k GET TO KNOW mid south enjoy cash flow from day one at mid southhomebuyers.com that's mid southhomebuyers.com
 
Corey Coates  2:19  
You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.
 
Keith Weinhold  2:35  
Welcome to GRE from the Adriatic Sea to the Atlantic Ocean and across 188 nations worldwide, I'm Keith Weinhold, and this is get rich education. Sometimes we all need a mindset reset, and this can include me. Sometimes. James clear, the author of atomic habits, says there are four types of wealth, financial wealth, which is money, social wealth, which is status, time, wealth which is freedom, and physical wealth, which is health. Be wary of jobs that seduce you with one and two but rob you of three and four. That is to say, be careful with jobs that seduce you with financial and social wealth but rob you of time and physical wealth that is definitely going to happen to you during your life, especially early in your working career. But many people, even most people, they don't do much about this. They just go on and on, selling their soul to their employer for decades. Sometimes paychecks aren't compensation. They're a bribe from an employer to give up your dreams early in your career, delayed gratification actually makes some sense, because you need capital formation, you need down payments, you need dry powder. That is totally fair and the time in your life for delayed gratification. But there's a point that most people miss, the point where delayed gratification quietly mutates into denied gratification. This is huge. Most people miss this inflection point. When is this point in your life? That's when I'll do it later becomes, well, I guess I never did it at all. They look up at what they've got at age 65 and realize that they have a respectable title. They still wear Dockers pants. They have a 401, K that they must start paying tax on, and knees that creak louder than. The front door. Compound Interest hardly outpaces taxes and inflation. That's just going to keep you in one spot, you know, and you're never going to get that time back. There is no do over there. So you need to get to the point where you can be more frugal with your time than your money. Younger people have a harder time adopting this mindset, and that's a little natural, because they have more time and less money. Sooner than later, you must desperately get financially free so that you can simply be your self workaholics, optimize income instead of assets, and you can't let that happen, because labor does not compound and capital does compound, your quality of life will exceed your cost of living when your life is funded by what you own, not by what you do that takes a different mindset. You can either be a conformer or you can build wealth when you invest in real estate that pays five ways. It's like what you're doing is buying future Tuesdays, where you never have to work again and then later, add on future Wednesdays, where you never have to work again because you got the compound leverage instead of the impotent compound interest. I mean, just consider your two and a half million dollar portfolio that is passively doing the same work as someone who sells 40 to 50 hours a week of their life away for 100k in yearly salary. All right, maybe you're thinking, Oh, that all sounds thought provoking, but if you're not engaged on that, it can sound airy and philosophical and even risky. It's sort of like, yeah, you're cueing the acoustic guitar music and slow motion images of someone pensively gazing at a sunset.
 
Keith Weinhold  7:12  
All right, what is the concrete plan? It's not all about mindset. It only starts with mindset. You got to make that actionable. Well, we constantly provide concrete plans for you here on this show, and I've got another concrete plan for you toward the end of the show today. This harkens back to what I discussed with you seven weeks ago, seven episodes ago on the show. That's when I discussed the world's first billionaire, John D Rockefeller and his enduring quote from about 100 years ago, he who works all day has no time to make money. Yeah, that's the quote a little review. What you learned seven episodes ago is that Rockefeller meant, if you spend your life doing tasks, you're never going to rise high enough to own things that pay you for life. The bottom line here is that earning a living is a distinctly different activity than building wealth. That's what we're talking about here. 
 
Keith Weinhold  8:14  
Well, there is a new wave of landlords entering the market, and they are reshaping what owning rentals looks like. One survey by rental platform avail of nearly 2000 users. It's really influential. It found that 53% of landlords became landlords in the last five years. So you have a lot of new landlords with the most 17% of landlords entering the market in just the last year, most purchased a property specifically to rent it out, and 1/3 sort of backed into this business by renting out their former residence. Of course, some people want to rent out their former residence today, if they got locked into that sexy owner occupied three and 4% financing from 2022 and earlier, the survey went on to tell us with some really good takeaways here, 72% of landlords manage between one and four units, and this avail survey. I mean, it's just another one that shows that the majority of landlords operate small portfolios, classic mom and pop investors. That one's not too surprising. The top three reasons that landlords gave for entering the rental market, they're pretty interesting. The number one reason for getting into this at 41% of respondents is building long term wealth. Next 33% for generating passive income, and the third most popular one, it's a distant third, it is preparing for retirement at 13% so building long term wealth is the number one reason for getting into this, and that is the right reason. Them when it comes to ownership structure, 64% said that they own the property individually, whether that's through a single member LLC or in their own name, doing it, yeah, individually, rather than with a family member or a business partner. So really, the summary of this terrific, recent avail landlord survey is that if you're just getting started, you're not alone. A lot of people are most own properties solely in their own name, and the number one reason for doing it is to build long term wealth. Now there's another pervasive set of economic trends out there in the broader economy, but it's really a benefit for real estate investors, and that is the fact that wage growth has now outpaced consumer price growth for three years. Yeah, another way to say that is that wage growth has outpaced inflation for fully three years. Yeah, most people just aren't feeling it yet. So you might be taken somewhat aback by that, and why aren't people feeling that wage growth is faster than inflation, the pandemic inflation spike that was so huge, it was like getting hit with a freight train, and then someone tells you, good news, the train has stopped. Yeah, that's nice. You are still lying on the tracks, rubbing your ribs. That's because we're all still absorbing spiked prices for everything from a lumber two by four to a York Peppermint Patty, year over year, wages are up 3.8% and consumer inflation is 3% All right, so wages above inflation, that means things are getting a little more affordable, but both wages and inflation have grown faster than home prices, which have only grown about one and a half percent, and this is all per the BLS in the FHFA, so wage growth Being more than double home price growth. Well, that trend really makes properties more affordable, but historically, they're still not that affordable. Everybody knows that home prices soared until about 2023 that was the turning point, and now wages are in their catch up phase. All right, but what really matters to real estate investors is, when will this wage growth translate to rent growth, historically, big rent growth that lags big home price growth by about two to four years. So you have the big home price growth, big rent growth hits two to four years later, historically. Now, if that holds true, we should finally see substantial rent growth this year or next year. Rent growth has still been pretty soft in the one to four unit space, and even there are rent decreases in the overbuilt apartment space. Future income growth promises to make homes more affordable. Affordability has already improved, with mortgage rates hovering near three year lows. There's one problem, though, that most people overlook, and that is this wage growth has been skewed toward the higher income deciles, renters, especially workforce renters, they don't feel it until later. So this 3.8% wage growth, it's heavier for higher income people, and it's lighter for lower income people. I swear, when there are enriching economic trends, it always hits the higher income people first, and it doesn't trickle down until later. So if you as an investor, are positioned before the rent wave hits, you are surfing, and if you wait to feel it, you're swimming behind the boat. Higher wages should translate to higher rents in the next one to two years. And as far as some other forces, as we all know, the man occupying the oval office in the White House, the President, he wants lower rates. The current Fed Chair isn't so willing to do that. The next one, the one he appointed, Kevin Warsh, who arrives in May. He seems more receptive to lower rates, but it's gonna take a while. It all moves so slow. We have had 16 fed chairs before worsh over 112 years. And look how much of an econ nerd Are you? Are you as bad as me? These voices are in chronological order, and I can name each speaker.
 
Corey Coates  14:47  
You're going to have to live with the fact that forecasts have a range of uncertainty, irrational exuberance.
 
Corey Coates  14:54  
In my opening remarks, I'd like to briefly first review today's policy decision, but
 
Corey Coates  14:58  
first I'll review recent. Economic developments in the Outlook, and we are well positioned to wait to see how the economy evolves.
 
Keith Weinhold  15:06  
If you can name each of those speakers, I would love to give you a free property from gremarketplace.com but I can't quite swing that in order. Those voices are Paul Volcker. He served from 1979 to 87 he was known for crushing double digit inflation by jacking rates to near 20% it was painful medicine, but it worked the next one. Alan Greenspan sir, from 1987 to 2006 that was a long reign, almost 20 years. He oversaw the 90s economic boom, the.com bubble and the early housing bubble. Years so far, Greenspan is the only Fed chair that I have met in person. Then Ben Bernanke, he was the Fed chair from 2006 to 2014 he took the helm right before the 2008 financial crisis. He rolled out QE and emergency lending on an historic scale. In fact, he was nicknamed helicopter Ben because it's like he would print so much money that he just dropped it out of huge sacks, dollar bills in huge sacks, dropping them from an airplane, metaphorically, not literally. Then Janet Yellen, 2014 to 2018 she kind of continued this post crisis normalization, and she was the first woman to chair the Fed and then, of course, Jerome Powell serving from 2018 to 2026 he navigated the covid stimulus, ultra low rates. And then after that, the fastest rate hiking cycle in decades to fight inflation back in 2022 being the Fed chair is the most important job in this economy, and over the decades, there's been more of a movement of the fed into the public eye. You just hear about them more in the media than you used to. But like I touched on last week, it just still doesn't mean as much to real estate investors as a lot of people think, people sometimes look for someone else to come save them, but it's more about you and the choices that you make that's what means more housing supply and demand means more real estate investors have profited during every one of those Fed Chair reigns, which go back almost 50 years from Volcker to today, I think everybody knows that fed chairs don't control property prices, and they don't even control long term interest rates. What's a little paradoxical is that Trump has been vocal about how he wants more affordable home prices, yet at the same time he wants existing homeowners to have their home prices go up, those two things seem to be in tension. They're in conflict with each other. The only way you can possibly get both are through lower mortgage rates. But is he going to see later today you as a GRE follower, you don't have to wait for lower rates income, property still feels less affordable than it did five years ago, because it is that's real but here's the key distinction in what makes real estate investors different from owner occupied homeowners. Affordability isn't about the price of the property, it's about whether the property pays for itself and grows your net worth while inflation does the heavy lifting. Higher prices don't kill investors. Inaction during inflation does you're not buying a say, $350,000 property. You're controlling it with $70,000 while your tenant and inflation do the rest. We do not rely on hope or appreciation. We start with income tax benefits and debt pay down and then leverage appreciation typically happens as well. GRE only succeeds when investors close on properties that perform long term. One bad referral costs us years of trust, so we don't do that. The best question for you really isn't whether property is affordable. The question is whether owning an investment property is better than inflation compounding against you. That's the investor lens today. 
 
Keith Weinhold  19:24  
coming up next week on the show here, we're going to discuss apartments. It's been a truly be leaguered sector, where their prices have fallen 2030, and 40% in many markets. We've discussed apartments here on the show a lot before, like with Grant Cardone on episode 264, with Ken McElroy, countless times with me monologuing about apartments. And next week, we're going to talk to a multifamily educator who is known as the apartment King. Later on, a future show, we've got the return of the financial. Firebrand, and lately, the financial comedian Garrett Gunderson, a powerful speaker. That's definitely going to be interesting. As for today, you'll hear a first person account from a Florida resident about why he's moved to Florida and why he invests there. You've heard of this guy before. That's next. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to Episode 593, of get rich education. 
 
Keith Weinhold  20:26  
Flock homes helps you retire from real estate and landlording, whether it's one problem property or your whole portfolio, through a 721, exchange, deferring your capital gains tax and depreciation recapture, it's a strategy long used by the ultra wealthy. Now Mom and Pop landlords can 721, the residential real estate request your initial valuation, see if your properties [email protected] slash GRE. That's f, l, O, C, K, homes.com/G. R, E, 
 
Keith Weinhold  21:02  
you know, most people think they're playing it safe with their liquid money, but they're actually losing savings accounts and bonds don't keep up when true inflation eats six or 7% of your wealth. Every single year, I invest my liquidity with FFI freedom family investments in their flagship program. Why fixed 10 to 12% returns have been predictable and paid quarterly. There's real world security backed by needs based real estate like affordable housing, Senior Living and health care. Ask about the freedom flagship program. When you speak to a freedom coach there, and that's just one part of their family of products. They've got workshops, webinars and seminars designed to educate you before you invest. Start with as little as 25k and finally, get your money working as hard as you do. Get started at Freedom family investments.com/gre, or send a text. Now it's 1-937-795-8989, yep, text their freedom coach directly again. 1-937-795-8989,
 
Keith Weinhold  22:13  
the same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours. Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your prequel and even chat with President chailey Ridge personally. While it's on your mind, start at Ridge lending group.com that's Ridge lending group.com
 
Zack Lemaster  22:47  
this is rental retirement Zach Lee Masters. Listen to get rich education with Keith bleinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.
 
Keith Weinhold  23:02  
I'd like to welcome in our own in house. GRE investment coach, we haven't had you on the show since November. Welcome in Naresh.
 
Naresh Vissa  23:11  
Kwith, It's a pleasure to be back on the show. Thanks for having me on.
 
Keith Weinhold  23:16  
We're just playing it all casual and comfortable here in house. You were just finishing up, what ice cream or a container of something right before we got started
 
Naresh Vissa  23:25  
here, all done with the ice cream and ready to record the podcast.
 
Keith Weinhold  23:29  
Yeah, all right, keeping cool for our chat. Well, you know you do live in Florida, so you must have your own perspective on the Florida market. You live in the Tampa area, and the reason that that's a germane topic is that's something we've been talking about here lately as really an opportunity, and that is because most of Florida has seen some temporary property price attrition, but yet more population growth is projected. So that's why we feel like that's temporary. But why don't you tell us about what you see on the ground there?
 
Naresh Vissa  24:07  
Keith, I've lived in Florida for 11 and a half years now. That's Tampa, Florida. I like Florida a lot. I moved here December 2014 for similar reasons that many people are moving here today. So I moved to Florida in December 2014 because of no state income tax, because of, at the time, lower cost of living. Florida was one of the states I got hit the hardest during the 2008 financial crisis, or nothing called in a real estate crisis, Florida, Arizona, those few others got hit really, really hard. So Florida at that time was still rebounding from 2008 so I moved for the affordability, the no income tax, of course, the weather better. Weather. And then most places in the Northeast I've lived so weather is a big deal when it comes to real estate and geography as well. These are all different reasons to move to Florida, and these are the reasons why I moved to Florida. I was also single in my 20s, so I was much younger at the time. I was single in my mid 20s, and Florida is very good for that too. For 20 something Gen Z folks today, Florida is definitely a place that they should consider. I moved down here and I fell in love with it. From day one. I got a place living right on the water, a beach. Got beaches everywhere. Florida's tour. And I say all this because these are all enticing features of Florida, for renters, for tenants, for snowbirds. I had never even heard of what a snowbird was until I moved down to Florida, where you have people who literally live here for seven months of the year, and then they live in their home state for five months of the year. So that's generally what it is, seven months in Florida, five months in their home state, which can be the people I know personally are from New York, Connecticut, Illinois, Ohio. The list goes on and on. Basically anywhere that's north of Florida could be considered a snowbird area. So that's another reason why Florida is a very hot market. Now, obviously, during the pandemic, in end of 2020, people started moving to Florida in droves. Part of it was politically, because you didn't have the restrictions that other states had during that crazy time that we lived through. And another part of it was work from home. So similar to me, in 2014 when I became full time work from home, I wanted to move somewhere for all those different reasons that I gave you the total package, and Florida fit that there was maybe one other state that fit the bill, based on everything that I told you, probably one other state. That's it. So Florida fit the bill, and that's why I think Florida is always going to be despite the hurricane prep, Florida is always going to be a destination that people will seriously look at whether you're older, retirement age or younger. Like I said in my mid 20s, single guy Florida is always going to be that destination for all the reasons that I laid out. So with that being said, what does that mean for real estate? What that means for real estate is that there's going to be a constant supply of people coming into Florida, and when there's a constant supply of people coming into Florida, then you can expect real estate prices to at least not decline. We passed, you know, all sorts of bills, including Dodd Frank post 2008 to prevent people from taking out mortgages that they couldn't afford. So now that that's out of the way, when you have a constant supply of people who are able to afford homes, who are able to afford rents, well, that's going to be a constant supply. So that's good for investors, that's good for appreciation. It's good for cash flow. And that's why I'm a huge fan, not just of the state of Florida, but also investing in Florida. And I own real estate in Florida, and you can say that I lucked out, but I bought a property in 2019 and it nearly doubled in value, yeah, when I say doubled in value in a matter of I want to say, like, two years, two and a half years, it nearly doubled in value. So with that being said, Florida, this was a rare cyclical trend when we just saw this huge upswing, rare cyclical trend. But I don't anticipate cycles like this, where you're going to have booms and busts. Moving forward, we haven't seen a bus since 2008 like I said, the the law has been taken care of in that sense, the regulation. I love the state. I've lived in six major cities, but maybe five different states, and Florida is hands down my favorite. That's why I've lived here for what did I say? 11 and a half or 12 and a half years? I don't even remember anymore. It's actually 11 and a half. My roots are here. I now consider myself a Florida person, even more so than the state of Texas, where, which is where I spent 18 years. I have no doubt that I'll surpass 18 or 19 years in Florida, and that this is it, right here. And a major reason is because this is just such a great state. It's free, it's real estate friendly. This is for people who are looking at buying primary residences, not for investment properties. But the governor has put on the ballot this coming election cycle to remove, to abolish the property tax in the state of Florida. So if you own, if you live full time, not a snowbird, not investors, but if you live in Florida permanently, then no more property tax if the vote passes. So that's another huge plus for owning property if you're a permanent resident in Florida,
 
Keith Weinhold  29:57  
yeah, even if the property tax is abolished. Which seems unlikely, you could just tell what the tenor and the temperature of the tax climate and the investing climate is like in Florida, if they're even spearheading such a proposal, and they're a national leader in something like property tax abolition, like they are and Naresh about eight years after you moved there, which would be, what about 2020? 2022, somewhere in there, we had that strong pandemic migration push into Florida. What's happened is that that flow has slowed down. There's still positive net in migration in there in Florida. But the builders, they got ahead of this, and the pandemic migration wave waned, and they had a temporarily overbuilt condition, and they still do now, which is one reason why we've seen prices fall somewhat in most Florida zip codes, and this spells part of the opportunity. So you do have all these new build properties, some of which are vacant, but you have a good chance they're going to get absorbed pretty soon. And there are some obvious advantages to owning new build.
 
Naresh Vissa  31:11  
Well, Keith, there is brand new construction in Florida, like you said. The work started in 2021 and there are homes that have not been sold. I don't want to say, since they were finished building in 2021 they recently finished building in 2025 and these homes could be a variety of reasons. It could be economic related. It could be hurricane related. In Tampa, the Central Florida, we had two horrible hurricanes back to back within a 15 day period, two really bad hurricanes towards the end of 2024 September and October 2024 and people lost their homes. Renters lost their homes. Other people just were freaked out and scared and said, You know what? I don't want to deal with. I've got PTSD from these hurricanes. I'm moving up to Alabama or Georgia or Orlando, you know, somewhere in Central Florida, that's a way. But even that area, you know, the hurricane still made it through to those areas too. People just picked up and said, You know what I'm done with Florida. It's a great state, but I don't want to deal with these hurricanes. And so regardless, whatever the reason, this is a pie, and these are all slices of the pie, I don't know what's been more of a contributing factor than which one has been more than the others. But with that being said, there are tons of properties in Florida, pretty much the entire state of Florida, where, especially new construction properties, are below at the time when they were being built, they're below what they anticipated being listed as. And So Keith, we're having a special webinar this Thursday, talking about these properties because they are discounted properties. They are properties that are selling at tremendous discounts, like I said to when Ground was broken years ago. So join that webinar. Gre, webinars.com gre webinars.com. Again, brand new construction. Many of these properties already have tenants in place. Not all of them, but many of them do already have tenants in place. There are all sorts of incentives that the builder is offering. And there are many builders in that, not just this one that's going to be on the webinar, but in Florida, there are many builders who are offering discounts, rate, buy downs, other incentives, because the home values have fallen somewhat a bit. Why have the home values falling? Because the demand has fallen as well. So again, the next question people might have is, well, if the demand is falling, if home home values are falling, why would I buy the trend is downward. And the answer is, whether it's a stock or any other security, you don't necessarily want to have the FOMO to buy at an all time high, just because everyone else is buying it. And I actually have family members who bought real estate at the peak of 2022 there was FOMO and there was, hey, you know, I need to get a flip, and they're down. They bought peak 2022, and they're down today. Because, look, you can pick any housing market in the country, especially a prime state like Florida. Look at any 30 year period, and you will see that home values are up double digits, even if you look at 2009 when the housing market crashed and we reached something like 10 year bottom in housing, if you look at the 30 year period, well, if someone who bought a house in Florida in, say, 1979 was still way up on their property in 2009 30 years later, we're not buying Bitcoin here where it can go up 30% in one day or go down 30% in one day. We're talking real estate, and real estate has been proven. It's been tested. It's been proven throughout time, not even a 30 year period. I think if you take any 20 year period, you're going to see the same trend of double digit gains, double digit growth. On real estate appreciation. So I'd say, if you're skeptical about Florida, you see these home values, all these discounts, that's the first thing I hear from followers. They say, why are they offering so many discounts? I'm a little concerned about all these discounts and incentives, and I don't know if that's a good thing. Well, I say, Well, I mean, you can buy full price in another state, if you'd like, you know, in California or so you could, you're more than free to buy full price. But we're talking Florida here. We're not talking about West Virginia or Rhode Island, or, you know, Nebraska. We're talking Florida. This is still the land of Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse, this is the land of the best beaches in the country. I mean, they there's just no arguing or debating these facts. Florida all the reasons that I stated earlier, is going to continue to be a hot, hot market. So I highly recommend people, if you want to get in on these discounted deals, G R E, webinars.com G R E, webinars.com register for our upcoming online and live special event this Thursday evening at 8pm Eastern Time, 8pm Eastern Time, gre webinars.com you won't want to miss this free, online and live special event.
 
Keith Weinhold  36:25  
When a pound of oranges is on sale or a pound of zucchini is on sale, consumers are often attracted to that sale. Should probably be the same way with you considering adding to your real estate portfolio, and it's funny, when oranges of zucchinis are on sale, no one tries to find fault with it and think that they're rotten inside or something like that. But somehow with real estate or an investment that tends to get scrutiny from people, but these are real discounts that you're getting over buying, say, two years ago, and we're talking about a motivated seller here. And as you know, Naresh, we had the builder on the show last week, the one that's going to be co hosting the webinar with you on Thursday, and he talked to us about buying down mortgage rates to between 3.75% and 4.25% and we're here at a time where the owner occupied rate is six to six and a quarter the investor rate is seven, so you're getting about a three percentage point buy down. That's really the attraction. And Naresh, before I ask you, if you have any last thoughts, yes, again, it is our live event that you can attend from the comfort of your own home, Thursday the 19th, at 8pm eastern in just a few days, here with Naresh and the builder who you heard on last week's show, co hosting a live webinar for Central Florida so inland new build income property. It's free. You're invited, and the benefit of you attending live is that you can have any of your questions answered in real time. You're going to learn more about the Central Florida market and more about the home building process, and you are going to be able to see available new bill property, real addresses, with some of these pretty grand incentives that we've talked about again. GRE webinars.com, any last thoughts? Naresh
 
Naresh Vissa  38:17  
I get a lot of questions about is right now the time to buy? Should I buy later? What's going to happen with real estate? And I know the number one question, or the number one caution our followers are going to have, is, is right now the time is March or April, the time. And I say, look, with real estate, I already gave you the figure that you take any 20 year time period, any 30 year time period, and that's our time horizon here at GRE again, we're not trying to buy bitcoin here and flip it, you know, two days later, we're looking to buy and hold for, I don't want to say forever, but I know my time horizon in general is the full 30 year term, at least for my properties, and some people you know, want 10 or 15 years. That's fine too, but that's the time horizon. It is not one year, two years. We're not flipping new construction properties here in Central Florida. We are looking to buy and hold over the long haul, get some very good, high quality tenants in there, in these new construction properties, so that you, the GRE follower and the investor, can collect your monthly cash flow as well as over that 20 year period, or that 30 year period take part in appreciation as well. We've also talked extensively, Keith in previous episodes about interest rate cuts that the Federal Reserve is going to be doing, and just know this, there's a reason why the builder is offering these incentives where you can get the rates so low, your mortgage rate can be so low, and it's going to take at least a year, even if the Fed goes to zero. I mean, it's going to take mortgage rates a very long time. And to reach that point of getting such low interest rates that you just laid out, so that even makes it more enticing, like, Hey, I basically have a head start on the Federal Reserve because I follow the Fed pretty closely. We don't need to get into those details, but it's looking heavily like they are going to be start cutting again later this year, this summer. So it's looking like they're going to do that, but again, now you can have a head start, because when the Fed starts doing that, and when the mortgage rates fall, then everybody's going to jump in. And what's going to happen to the home values once everybody jumps in, well, they're going to go up. You want to jump in when everybody is not jumping in, and when you can get an amazing deal on these interest rates thanks to the builder buying down your interest rate. So this is a GRE special you can't get these deals. I challenge our followers to go on the internet and try to find better incentives or deals. And what you're going to see on this webinar, on this online, live special event. So gre webinars.com you can join me as well as our special guest. He heads up the builder. His name is Jim. He's going to be on with me. And please join us at grewebinars.com sign up for this free and live online special event.
 
Keith Weinhold  41:20  
These are some great points. There's a lot of anticipation for Thursday, Naresh. We'll see you then.
 
Naresh Vissa  41:25  
Thanks, Keith.
 
Keith Weinhold  41:32  
Oh yeah, a first person account on Florida life and opportunity from our own Naresh nationally, the build to rent model that has been a real success, building single family rentals with the intent that they are rentals. From day one, over 321,000 homes have been built specifically as rentals this way since 2012, and more than three quarters of those in just the last five years. So the build to rent trend is picking up steam. About 1/3 of Americans rent their home, and although the word rental for some people that still conjures up visions of high rises packed with apartments, but a growing number of today's rentals are these freestanding, single family homes and duplexes like we're talking about today, nestled in suburban communities with top notch schools, and that's why a growing number of mom and pop investors have hopped on the build to rent bandwagon. They take less maintenance. It attracts quality tenants who stay longer, and the rentals have changed, but so had the renters. 20 years ago, it felt like tenants had to rent, like they had no choice. Today, you've got more and more tenants that choose to rent. Many of them make 100k to 125k or more. Today, rentals are cheaper than owning for those people, and they're less of a headache. A lot of them don't want to fix things, and you as the owner, don't want to either. That's why new build is attractive. Then, you know, I just sent that great map to our newsletter subscribers about which states saw the most population gain from 2020 to today, the South had more population growth than every other US region combined, which is jaw dropping and within the South, the state with the most population growth since 2020 is Florida, with An 8.9% population gain in that span, narrowly beating out Texas and South Carolina. By the way, even if it weren't for the attractive builder interest rate near 4% these Sunshine State deals could still make sense. New build single family rentals from the 270s new build duplexes, 395 to 420k low insurance rates, positive cash flow, a builder warranty. And it's really even better than that. These properties are centered on Ocala, Florida, which received national recognition as the fastest growing city for this second year in a row. That's according to a U haul report, and Florida is the epitome of investor friendly. Florida is the first state to enact a law allowing law enforcement to immediately remove squatters. It distinguishes them from legal tenants. You might come to the webinar event, perhaps thinking about 80k or 500k that you want to allocate toward property or maybe nothing and you just want to learn at the event you will evaluate realistic opportunities learn how property management is handled, and understand how today's inventory fits into your disciplined, long term strategy that all takes place on. On Thursday the 19th at 8pm Eastern. It's our biggest event of the year, and it is called Why Central Florida is the year's most compelling housing market. One last time for Thursday, it is gre webinars.com, until then, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.
 
Unknown Speaker  45:20  
You nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.
 
Keith Weinhold  45:52  
The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get richeducation.com