Learning Through Experience

In this episode, Heidi Brooks and Zoe Chance invite you to step out of the transactional pursuit of influence and into the relational, visceral reality of self-influence through coaching. 
Through their conversation, Heidi and Zoe take you on a journey to reframe coaching not as a corrective tool for fixing what is broken, but as an enlivening stance for everyday leadership and human connection. You'll get a sneak peak into the big ideas guiding the upcoming professional coaching certificate at Yale and why the cohort model is an important element of the program. They deconstruct traditional ideas of interpersonal influence, putting them back together as an inside-out process where changing our relationships requires us to first renegotiate our relationship with ourselves.
Ultimately, Heidi and Zoe invite you to take a coaching stance to stretch beyond your comfort zone and expand your capacity to thrive.
Connect with Zoe Chance at zoechance.com and check out her book.
Learn more about the Yale SOM Certificate in Professional Coaching.
New! Turn a challenge you are facing into a "Learning through experience" moment with Heidi Brooks. Leave a voice note and we may bring your voice to the show. Learn more and consider recording a voice note here. 
Note:
00:00 - Introduction Heidi opens the show with a short vignette into her day of teaching and invites you to shift the energy with her in real time. 
03:20 - Knowing Isn't Enough Zoe shares the vulnerable, embarrassing story of her time with a Mayan shaman in the rainforest. Heidi and Zoe explore the deep friction between having conceptual information and the visceral, embodied reality of an experience.
08:00 - The Trojan Horse of Influence Heidi and Zoe wrestle with traditional, transactional ideas of influence and how Zoe's course often acts as a Trojan horse for personal transformation. The conversation highlights the inside-out approach of becoming someone others naturally want to say yes to.
13:20 - Co-Creating a New Experience: Coaching at Yale The hosts dream in public about their upcoming certificate for professional coaching and the intentional design of a cohort-based experience. They look at how learning to coach in a group setting acts as a micro-society for humanizing the workplace.
18:20 - The Messy Work of Being Coachable Heidi shares a grainy moment from her early days coaching "perfect" executives to surface an inconvenient tension: being coachable requires a person to be influenceable. They invite the audience to ask if they are willing to stretch beyond the safety of their expertise.
25:20 - System 1 "Soup" and The Logic of Commitment The two dive into the intuitive, habitual "emotional soup" of System 1, which Zoe names as the hidden engine of human behavior. Heidi introduces Jim March's framework to ask how leaders can anchor their work in the enlivening "logic of commitment" rather than the transactional "logic of consequence".
36:20 - The Ultimate Challenge: Influencing the Self The conversation lands on the profound realization that the hardest person in the world to influence is the self. Heidi and Zoe explore how adopting a coaching stance helps individuals renegotiate their relationship with themselves and expand their capacity to thrive.
42:20 - A Genuine Invitation The episode concludes with an invitation to the listener to pay attention to their own possible transformations. Heidi shares a new way for the audience to leave a voice note via SpeakPipe so the community can co-create this learning experience together.

In this episode, Heidi Brooks and Gianpiero Petriglieri invite you to step out of the mechanical pursuit of efficiency and into the "beautiful problem" of being human in a professional world. Through their conversation, Heidi and GP take you on a journey to reframe your everyday experiences as moments of learning, curiosity, and choice. They guide you through the essential tension between convergence, the practice of meeting a standard, and divergence, the freedom to ask "what else?" as you build a more spacious relationship with your experiences. They deconstruct and put back together the tensions between our goals of work and life. Ultimately, Heidi challenges you to reclaim your agency through what GP calls "The Work": the intentional use of your attention and relationships with others to resist seductive shortcuts (including AI) that undermine the learning lab that is your life. 
Connect with Gianpiero Petriglieri's work at gpetriglieri.com.
Notes
[00:00] — Finding Agency in the Mystery of Life In this opening segment, Heidi Brooks invites you to view your life not just as something to survive, but as an adventure in learning through experience. 
[02:15] — From Childhood Curiosity to Professional Pursuit You will hear Gianpiero Petriglieri (GP) reflect on his upbringing as an only child in Southern Italy, a background that forced him to "decode" the mystery of adults and navigate enmeshed family boundaries. He shares his five-year transition from psychiatry to management education, during which he immersed himself in intense experiential social systems. This journey allowed him to turn what was once a personal struggle with group dynamics into a professional blessing that both soothes him and makes him useful to others.
[05:45] — Sensitivity as Your Greatest Professional Asset GP challenges the common idea that being sensitive is a liability in a professional setting. He explains that in today's overstimulating and anxiety-provoking work environments, sensitivity is a sociological skill that helps you parse what belongs to you versus what is happening in the system. By establishing boundaries—which GP describes as a "skin" rather than a wall—you gain the ability to "touch" and engage with others without feeling burdened by the interaction.
[11:00] — Moving Beyond the Logic of Tools and Efficiency The conversation shifts to why many people find experiential learning "mysterious" compared to the instrumental logic of getting from point A to point B. You will learn that the goal here is not just to acquire tools, but to build "spacious selves" with wider emotional registers. This humanizing approach creates a space where you can think more thoughts, speak more freely, and feel more deeply in the presence of others, rather than acting like a mechanical bioengineering machine.
[16:45] — The Two Paths of Learning: Convergence and Divergence GP explains that learning is not a single process; it involves both convergence (deliberate practice to meet a standard) anda divergence (exploring "what else" and "what next"). You might find yourself seeking education because you need instruction and feedback to reach a goal, or because you are in an exploratory phase questioning your own motives. This segment ends with an intentional pause and call to reflection from Heidi Brooks. 
[24:00] — Doing "The Work" (Big W and Small W) In one of the most profound parts of the episode, GP defines "The Work" as the effort to develop integrated selves within democratic institutions. On a micro level, this means reclaiming your attention and conversation—the two fundamental capacities of leadership. Because attention is the beginning of strategy and conversation is the beginning of culture, choosing where you focus and what you talk about is your most powerful tool for reclaiming freedom from systems that try to control you.
[29:30] — Reclaiming Humanity in the Age of AI You will hear a cautionary take on AI, which GP describes as a "seductive psychopath" that promises to relieve you of the "work" of thinking and relating. He argues that automating micro-interactions, like writing an email, strips away layers of your humanity. The challenge for you in a technological world is the "old problem": how to hold onto your own mind and maintain real connections despite the temptation to be relieved of the effort.
[34:45] — Turning Sorrow into Connection As the episode concludes, GP identifies three modern sorrows: distraction, distress, and disconnection. He suggests that the reason you seek learning is to find their inverses: direction, hope, and connection. The final "beautiful problem" of being alive is the tension between wanting to be guided and wanting to discover for yourself—a paradox that Heidi Brooks encourages you to embrace as an ongoing journey rather than a task to be mastered.

In this season finale, we do something a little different. Instead of featuring an outside guest, we bring you behind the scenes—with the voices and minds who help design and deliver the very work this podcast explores. Dr. Heidi Brooks is joined by her colleagues David Tate and Stacey Casamassima for a candid, deeply human conversation that essentially doubles as a real team meeting. This is the team that teaches and leads "Everyday Leadership" at Yale and facilitates high-touch programs like Interpersonal and Group Dynamics, Holding Space, and more. And this time, they're turning the mic inward.
Together, they reflect on the life experiences that drew them to this work, the evolution of their own learning journeys, and the frameworks and practices they use to create conditions for meaningful growth—within themselves, their students and each other. They discuss what it means to "stay" in difficult moments, how trust and ambiguity support learning, and why the ability to be present—with curiosity and care—is at the heart of human development.
If you've ever wondered how transformational learning environments are built, or who's behind the scenes making them possible, this conversation is for you. Listen in as we lift the veil, share the practice, and reflect on what it really takes to co-create the conditions for learning—with integrity, intention and hope.
Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to [email protected]. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder. 
Watch this episode on YouTube.
Show Notes & Key Moments
00:06 – Opening the Circle: Why This Episode, Why This Team
Dr. Heidi Brooks frames the episode as a rare look behind the scenes of the work and the people who create the conditions for learning.
03:02 – Disillusionment, Discovery and Stacey's Path to the Work
"My graduate degree rescued me from the cynicism I found in the working world... It shaped fundamentally how I move through the world."
06:50 – The Early Seeds of David's Work
David Tate traces his call to group work back to junior high: "I wasn't doing much—just listening. But that act of holding space was more powerful than I realized."
16:46 – Doing Nothing—or Everything? Heidi's Story of Early Impact
"They asked me to stop bringing research and just ask questions. I thought I was doing nothing—but something powerful was happening in that space."
28:06 – What Creates the Conditions for Learning?
Stacey and David explore the inner and outer structures that make learning possible—from psychological safety to intentional ambiguity and trust.
40:19 – Against Individualism: Learning as a Shared, Social Experience
"Can we meditate out loud—together?" Stacey reframes learning as a relational practice that counters dominant culture's emphasis on the individual.
46:32 – Stay or Cancel? Trust, Reaction, and the Practice of Presence
"Stay is not the same as tolerate." The team discusses cancel culture, self-protection, and the challenge of staying present through discomfort and difference.
53:10 – The Power of Discussability and Repair
"Not only are we noticing, but we're going to talk about it—and recover." Stacey reflects on what makes it possible to risk and trust in community.
57:01 – Hope for Humanity: What This Work Makes Possible
"Our students go out and ripple this work into the world. That gives me hope." David and Stacey share final reflections on why this work matters.
Resources:
Yale Courses in Organizational Behavior: https://faculty.som.yale.edu/heidibrooks/courses/
David C. Tate: https://som.yale.edu/faculty-research/faculty-directory/david-c-tate

What does it mean to create something that didn't exist before—and to do so with a sense of possibility, even in the face of constraint? In this episode, artist Mario Moore joins Dr. Heidi Brooks to reflect on art as agency, the power of process, and the untold stories behind his Yale-commissioned painting Black Governors. Together, they explore the tension between presence and invisibility, and what it means to embed stories within stories—without always offering a central gaze or a single interpretation.
This is a conversation about creativity as resistance, about learning through making, and about honoring what came before—while imagining what's still possible. Whether you're an artist, educator, student, or leader, Mario Moore's perspective offers a powerful lens on agency in the face of constraint—and how storytelling, through image or action, can challenge assumptions, spark dialogue, and expand what feels possible. If you've ever wondered how art intersects with justice or how process itself can be a form of wisdom, this episode is for you.
"Paintings tend to grow—and you need to follow along and let it do its thing." — Mario Moore
Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to [email protected]. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder.
Watch this episode on YouTube.
Show Notes & Key Moments
03:00 – Art, Activism and Early Immersion
His mom was an artist; his grandmother, an activist. That legacy shaped Mario's worldview—and his work. "We'd go from studios to marches. I didn't separate creativity from protest."
06:30 – Detroit, Imagination and Possibility in the Face of Scarcity
The collapse of the city where he was born and raised helped Mario Moore ask what might be rebuilt. "If everything's been taken away—why not imagine something new?"
11:30 – From Hollywood Backdrops to His Own Vision
After working as a set sculptor on major films, Mario Moore realized he needed to reclaim time and space for his own creative voice. "I was building other people's stories. But I had something to say."
20:50 – The Process: Sketches, Research and Listening to the Work
Mario doesn't just paint—he excavates. Through sketches, archival research and revision, he lets each piece grow into what it needs to be. "I never want to force a painting into a plan. I follow where it leads."
24:30 – Finding the Black Governors: History Hidden in Plain Sight
The title "Black Governors" is significant to Connecticut, referencing the way enslaved and free African Americans would elect leaders to mediate the community's needs to power structure. "This history wasn't in textbooks. But it shaped everything."
26:00 – The Layers of Black Governors
Mario Moore walks us through the visual and historical components of the painting. "Every corner of this painting has a story—and most have been forgotten."
35:20 – Why the Top Hat Matters
A nod to period fashion? Sure. A playful defiance of expectations? Absolutely. "Fun is part of the work. That's how I keep creating."
37:10 – Composition, Centering and the Power of Visual Framing
Mario explains why placement matters—from the buttons on a coat to who gets to face the viewer. "This figure doesn't face you on purpose. It's not about one man—it's about many."
39:00 – Final Reflections: Legacy, Leadership, and What Endures
For Mario Moore, art is both an offering and an invitation. For Heidi, the piece is now part of her everyday experience—and a prompt for future leaders. "This painting lives here now. And it's asking all of us to see differently."
Resources
Mario Moore's website: https://www.mariomoorestudio.com/

In a time marked by anxiety, division and disconnection, the path forward lies not in fixing the past but in expanding our freedom to imagine what's next. In this episode of Learning Through Experience, Dr. Heidi Brooks is joined by Suzi Tucker, a writer, teacher and pioneer of Family Constellations work. Together, they explore how our personal and ancestral stories shape the patterns we repeat—and how stepping into those patterns with curiosity can help us reorient toward hope.
With warmth, wisdom and respect for the unknown, Suzi shares how facing uncertainty isn't about certainty at all—it's about accompaniment. It's about standing on the shoulders of those who came before us and choosing, even in fear, to take one generative step toward something more. Through stories of lineage, loss, and liberation, Heidi and Suzi offer listeners an invitation to slow down, pay attention and let learning emerge.
"When I plant a seed, that's really all I have to do. I don't know what's going to come. That one generative step is enough." —Suzi Tucker
Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to [email protected]. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder. 
Watch this episode on YouTube.
Show Notes & Key Moments
03:00 – A Brother Remembered, a Path Revealed
Suzi recalls how the absence of her institutionalized brother shaped her and how an encounter with Bert Hellinger—founder of Family Constellations—marked a turning point.
"I decided I had a freedom my mother didn't have, and I used it. I went to meet my brother—not for him to know me, but for me to know him."
10:16 – The Work of Freedom vs. Healing
Suzi explains that her work isn't about fixing the past—it's about freeing people to move forward.
"Healing is personal and beautiful, but not necessarily connected to something in the future. Freedom is."
13:36 – Patterns, Habit and the Energy of Stuckness
Heidi and Suzi discuss how we get trapped in cycles inherited from our family systems—and how awareness opens space for choice.
"Those places where I've done the same thing over and over again—and then I defend it, and get angry at the defense—that's when spirit gets siphoned off."
18:00 – Group Work, Lineage and Accompaniment
Suzi reflects on what emerges in her constellation workshops—and why showing up in community can be a pathway to hope.
"When I look at a group of 40, I see 4 million. I'm working not just with people, but with the lineages sitting beside them."
24:45 – Facing Uncertainty with Ancestral Support
Suzi names the emotional reality of living in uncertain times and how drawing from lineage can be a grounding force.
"I call it the lethargy of despair. But then I feel my predecessors stepping in and saying, we've seen this before."
27:29 – Writing as a Practice of Possibility
For Suzi, writing becomes a tool to move beyond fear and uncertainty.
"I'm writing my path beyond the threshold of fear."
43:23 – Constellations and a Shift in Perspective
Constellations offer a way to step outside the chaos and view one's story with new eyes. Heidi and Suzi discuss why representing others in a group can be transformative.
"It's not about understanding the system, but knowing there is a system—and it looks different depending on where you stand."
48:22 – Generative Endings and Ongoing Unfolding
Suzi explains that constellations don't end with solutions, but with new images that change the structure of how people move through life.
"I picture my parents behind me, my brother beside me, and I walk forward. And I imagine them saying, We're so glad they didn't stay trapped in our fear."
53:55 – Something to Sit With
Heidi closes by highlighting the invitation at the heart of this episode: not to solve uncertainty, but to meet it.
"Fear is familiar. Possibility is harder to trust—but it's there. And we can take one generative step toward it."
Resources
Suzi Tucker's website: Explore Suzi Tucker's website to learn about her upcoming retreats, workshops, and sign up for her newsletter.
'Til Soon: Paradigm-shifting life prompts through the unique lens of Systemic Constellations, by Suzi Tucker.
Acknowledging What Is: Conversations With Bert Hellinger: In this thought-provoking series of dialogues, Bert Hellinger—the originator of the Family Constellation method—offers profound insights into the unseen dynamics that shape family systems. Through real-life examples and practical reflections, he explores how acknowledging hidden entanglements can unlock the path to personal and generational healing.
Holding Love: A Teaching Seminar on Love's Hidden Symmetry: Drawn from a live seminar in San Francisco in 1999, this comprehensive three-part resource offers an in-depth look at applying Family Constellations in therapeutic settings. Hellinger guides viewers through the subtle patterns influencing love and relationships, illustrating how the method can reveal underlying forces at play in couples and family work.