The Fifth Court

AT 16, SEÁN LEMASS ACCIDENTALLY SHOT HIS BABY BROTHER. WHY DID FIVE OR SIX BIOGRAPHIES MISS IT?
RONAN MCGREEVY ON THE EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF IRELAND'S MOST CONSEQUENTIAL TAOISEACH.

What did Seán Lemass really think? And what has history overlooked?
Irish Times journalist and author Ronan McGreevy joins Peter Leonard and Mark Tottenham at the Kilkenny Law Festival to discuss Seán Lemass: The Lost Memoir — including a shocking discovery about Lemass's teenage years, his role in the revolutionary period, Bloody Sunday, his relationship with de Valera and the economic transformation of Ireland.

Plus, three legal cases: a disputed family guarantee, the evidence of a protected witness who admitted perjury, and the High Court's approach to capacity and vulnerability.

THE FIFTH COURT — No Ordinary Courtroom, presented by Peter Leonard and Mark Tottenham.

The legal cases section of this episode is sponsored by Charltons Solicitors, of Dún Laoghaire, Dublin — solicitors and collaborative practitioners specialising in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Welcome to The Fifth Court
02:13 The legal cases: family guarantees, protected witnesses and capacity
05:20 Ronan McGreevy at the Kilkenny Law Festival
06:09 Ronan's books and the Seán Lemass story
07:14 The lost memoir: 23 interviews and 22 hours of recordings
10:51 Seán Lemass's early life on Capel Street
12:50 The extraordinary discovery about Lemass's baby brother
16:25 Lemass and the 1916 Rising
18:07 Bloody Sunday: did Lemass kill Geoffrey Bagley?
20:11 The Treaty and the Civil War
21:41 The killing of Lemass's brother Noel
24:12 The extraordinary libel case and the Hospital Sweepstakes
25:59 Lemass and de Valera: a political partnership
28:44 Building Irish industry
34:56 The Lemass years and Ireland's economic crisis
37:18 Opening Ireland to foreign investment
39:20 Ireland, Europe and the EEC
42:44 Lemass reaches out to Northern Ireland
46:16 What Lemass thought of John F. Kennedy
47:56 Why Lemass left office
49:15 Charles Haughey: the son-in-law question
51:59 The private life of Seán Lemass
53:26 Closing the interview

ABOUT THE GUEST
Ronan McGreevy is a journalist with The Irish Times and an author and editor of several books on Irish history. His books include Wherever the Firing Line Extends: Ireland and the Western Front, Great Hatred: The Assassination of Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson and Seán Lemass: The Lost Memoir.
ABOUT THE FIFTH COURT
The Fifth Court explores legal affairs, landmark cases, the people behind the law and the stories that shape Ireland.
Presented by Peter Leonard, barrister and mediator, and Mark Tottenham, barrister and trust and estate practitioner.
Recorded at the Kilkenny Law Festival.

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This is a SPECIAL PRIVATE INVITATION to our listeners to join us at a recording in the dlr LexIcon Library Haigh Terrace, Moran Park, Dún Laoghaire, County Dublin. Eircode: A96 H283 on the 26th November, 2026.
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The Beatles changed music. Their lawyers had plenty to do afterwards.

Jason Carty, co-host of the acclaimed Beatles podcast Nothing Is Real, joins Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL for a special edition of The Fifth Court, recorded live at Electric Picnic.

From Come Together and Chuck Berry to My Sweet Lord and subconscious copying, Jason explores the legal disputes behind some of the most familiar songs ever recorded.
Along the way:
How the Come Together dispute led to a settlement, missing recordings and a mail-order John Lennon album.
Why Paul McCartney’s approach to legal advice gave him greater freedom to create.
Who gets a songwriting credit — and who gets left out.
George Harrison, Ringo Starr and a recording that did not go down particularly well.
Allen Klein’s extraordinary role in the My Sweet Lord litigation.
How the Rutles’ Beatles parodies acquired Lennon–McCartney songwriting credits.
Neil Innes, Oasis and a rather satisfying publishing twist.

Also on this episode: three cases from Decisis.ie
The People v JL: Could an accused put a prepared statement denying an offence before the jury without facing cross-examination?
Corrigan v Redmond: Does holding a power of attorney give a non-lawyer the right to represent someone in court?
O’Leary, a minor, v Airtastic Cork Limited: CCTV contradicted the account of a trampoline injury, and the claim failed.
The Decisis.ie case-law section is sponsored by Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners, George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire.
charltons.ie
Jason’s podcast: nothingisrealpod.com
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E156 | Paul Howard: A united Ireland. But whose flag, whose anthem, whose rules?

Would you vote for a united Ireland if it meant changing the flag? The national anthem? The Constitution?
And should we settle those questions before asking people to vote?
On Episode 156 of The Fifth Court, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL welcome Paul Howard, creator of Ross O’Carroll-Kelly, to discuss his new satirical novel, A Nation Once Again.
Its premise: a fictional government department has been preparing for Irish unity since 1958. Turning the aspiration into an actual plan proves rather more complicated.
Paul describes himself as agnostic on reunification and open to persuasion. He explains why the argument needs to move beyond green versus orange, why compromise may leave everyone slightly dissatisfied, and why a premature border poll could set the project back for a generation.
Along the way:
• The solicitor’s letter over a 50-word rugby report that helped inspire Ross O’Carroll-Kelly’s lawyer.
• Why comedy can open up conversations that serious political debate struggles to reach.
• Flags, anthems, policing and the practicalities of bringing two systems together.
• Why Ireland’s Call might offer an unlikely lesson in compromise.
• Paul’s prediction of a border poll within ten years—and Mark’s reasons for disagreeing.

The Decisis case review
Peter and Mark also discuss three Irish decisions from Decisis.ie:
• Merck Serono S.A. v The Controller of Intellectual Property: an unsuccessful appeal concerning a supplementary protection certificate for a medicine.
• Minister for Justice v Curtin: surrender to the UK, errors in a warrant and objections concerning prison conditions.
• Kerr v Moran: joint tenancy, intended ownership arrangements and the refusal to dismiss a solicitors’ negligence claim as statute-barred.
The case-law section is sponsored by Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners, George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire, whose services include family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate.

Paul’s recommendations:
• Death in the City of Light — David King.
• I, Fatty — Jerry Stahl.
• Intermission — his favourite comfort film, accompanied by a wonderful story about meeting Colm Meaney.
Presented by Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL.

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THE BILLABLE HOUR IS UNDER ATTACK. AND AI COULD CHANGE THE LEGAL PROFESSION FOREVER.

What happens when one of Ireland's most innovative solicitors decides to throw out the traditional rulebook?
Larry Fenelon SC, founder of Fenecas Law and previously of Leman Solicitors, joins Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL on Episode 155 of The Fifth Court.
He's built a litigation-only firm that doesn't record billable hours, embraces artificial intelligence and believes the Irish legal profession needs to move much faster.
And his numbers are extraordinary.

Five hours of document preparation reduced to five minutes.
Ten employees doing work he believes might otherwise require 20–22 people.
Fixed-fee arrangements instead of the traditional six-minute billing clock.
Larry also reveals:
Why increasing his previous law firm from 25 to 55 people didn't necessarily increase profits.
How Leman Solicitors became part of international law firm Ogier.
Why AI is forcing lawyers to rethink how they charge clients.
Why paper-based court processes are increasingly unsustainable.
Why Ireland could become a major international arbitration centre, competing with London, Paris, Vienna and Stockholm.
Why he believes Ireland's legal professionals can compete with the best in the world.
There's also a remarkable personal story, from working in his family's meat business and studying at the University of Limerick to building, merging and then starting a law firm all over again.

Plus: the Decisis Law Reports case review
Peter and Mark examine three important decisions:
T.O. v HSE — a child's access to weight-loss medication and a challenge to the HSE's refusal to fund treatment.
L.M. v N.O.M. — children wrongfully retained in Ireland following a holiday visit, and their return to South Africa under the Hague Convention.
The People v C.U. — admissions made by a 17-year-old during Garda questioning and whether those admissions were admissible in evidence.
The Decisis case-law review is proudly sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners, George's Street, Dún Laoghaire, specialists in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate.
Presented by Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL.

The Fifth Court. No Ordinary Courtroom.
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