The Fifth Court

For more than a century, Ireland's judges shaped the country's politics, business, land ownership and legal system.
But who were they?

On Episode 153 of The Fifth Court, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by legal historian Daire Hogan, former McCann FitzGerald partner, former President of the Irish Legal History Society and author of the remarkable new book The Judges of Ireland 1866–1921.

It's a fascinating conversation about Victorian Ireland, judicial power, Westminster politics, the Four Courts, Home Rule, the birth of the modern legal system and some extraordinary judicial personalities whose influence is still felt today.

Along the way they discuss:
• why 1877 completely changed Irish courts
• the astonishing political influence behind judicial appointments
• why some judges nearly sailed on the Titanic
• how Irish judges were viewed in London
• the origins of today's High Court and Court of Appeal
• what legal history tells us about modern Ireland

Before Daire Hogan joins Peter and Mark, Mark reviews three important recent decisions from Decisis, kindly brought to listeners with the support of Charlton Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners, specialists in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate.
The featured cases include:

Adoption without parental consent
Security for costs
Legal professional privilege and shareholder rights

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Episode 152 of The Fifth Court features a very special guest: Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia
Interviewed by Mark Tottenham BL at Dalkey Book Festival.

This is not just a tech-founder interview. It is a fascinating conversation about law, trust, neutrality, rules, evidence, platform responsibility, AI hallucinations, volunteer communities, public knowledge and why Wikipedia has survived while much of the internet has become angrier, noisier and less trusted.

Jimmy explains why Wikipedia’s neutral point of view matters, why “assume good faith” is more practical than naïve, how Wikipedia deals with vandalism, why AI can invent very convincing false sources, why WikiNews did not work, and why Wikipedia avoided the advertising model that turned so much of the web into clickbait.
Jimmy's cultural recommendation, a book by the late author Ray Bradbury, 'Something Wicked this Way Comes'.

Before the interview, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL discuss three recent cases from the Decisis Casebook, sponsored by Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners: the Supreme Court on “no foal, no fee” and conditional fee arrangements; a drink-driving blood-specimen chain-of-custody case; and a murder conviction quashed because of an unbalanced judicial charge to the jury.

00:00 – Intro: Episode 152
01:47 – Decisis Casebook sponsor: Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners
02:00 – “No foal, no fee” and conditional fee arrangements
03:29 – Drink-driving conviction and blood-specimen chain of custody
04:34 – Murder conviction quashed over judicial charge to jury
06:03 – Jimmy Wales interview begins
06:43 – Why Wikipedia was hard to compete with
07:58 – Neutral point of view and controversial topics
09:49 – How Wikipedia’s rules developed
11:40 – Volunteer communities and optimism about people
15:12 – Why a wiki works for an encyclopedia, but maybe not for poetry
17:03 – Why Wikipedia is vandal-proof
18:30 – Jimmy Wales: “Queen Elizabeth II, not Henry VIII”
20:07 – Arbitration committees and Wikipedia governance
21:24 – Wikipedia in 150–300 languages
23:31 – What workplaces can learn from volunteers
29:06 – Audrey Tang, Taiwan and digital consensus
32:10 – “Assume good faith”
34:25 – ChatGPT, fake ISBNs and made-up legal cases
37:17 – Law enforcement and good faith
39:03 – Why WikiNews did not really work
44:12 – Constitutional change and institutional deadlock
49:37 – Platforms, publishers and free speech
50:25 – Why Wikipedia did not become an ad machine
53:04 – Jimmy Wales’ book recommendation: Something Wicked This Way Comes
54:33 – Outro

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In Part 2 of our extended interview with retired Supreme Court judge Mr Justice Peter Charleton, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL continue a remarkable conversation about life at the Bar, life on the Bench, and life after the Supreme Court.

Peter Charleton speaks about the reality of appearing in high-profile criminal cases, the discipline of addressing juries, why a good advocate must be able to hold attention, and why, in court, “your job is basically to stay on the horse”.

He discusses the emotional weight of criminal work, the dangers of lawyers mistaking themselves for victims, the Morris Tribunal, the call to the High Court, the pressure of judgment writing, and the move from sitting alone in the High Court to deciding cases with colleagues in the Supreme Court.

There is also a fascinating discussion on the length of modern judgments, why digital searches are different from physical searches, how Supreme Court judges deal with disagreement, and whether advocacy still matters in an age of written submissions.

And, in a lovely final turn, Peter Charleton reflects on retirement, family, music, film, War and Peace, Clint Eastwood, and why music, in his view, is a higher form of reasoning than law.

Before the interview, Mark and Peter discuss three recent cases from the Decisis.ie casebook, with thanks to the sponsor of the Decisis casebook discussion, Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire, who specialise in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate.

LSRA v O’Brien
A solicitor was prohibited from practising in his own right for 10 years following serious misconduct and repeated non-compliance with undertakings. The High Court stressed that its role in reviewing LSRA determinations is not a rubber-stamping exercise.

LSRA v Salabi
An overseas lawyer seeking to practise in Ireland could not rely on Belgian professional indemnity cover. The court held that the foreign cover did not meet the Irish regulatory requirements.

Foreign Births Register citizenship challenge
A challenge to the requirement that foreign-born children be registered on the Foreign Births Register before acquiring Irish citizenship was rejected, with the court finding no particular injustice in the requirement.

CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Part 2 preview
00:48 Decisis casebook discussion, sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners
03:49 Peter Charleton interview resumes
04:31 High-profile criminal cases and staying on the horse
05:15 Addressing juries and holding attention
07:13 Worrying about cases and professional regret
08:08 Criminal work, vicarious trauma and perspective
09:03 The Morris Tribunal and Donegal
10:37 The call to the High Court
11:43 Why judging was not easier than being a barrister
13:48 How to write a judgment
15:46 Are modern judgments too long?
18:07 Digital searches and privacy
19:52 Moving from the High Court to the Supreme Court
20:22 Keeping an open mind on appeal
21:30 Overturning colleagues and why it is not personal
23:45 Irish courts, US courts and the politics of judging
26:26 Is great advocacy dead?
28:38 Retirement from the Supreme Court
30:41 Life after the Bench
31:22 Music, law and philosophy
32:47 Film and book recommendations
34:45 Closing thanks
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The Fifth Court marks Episode 150 with Part 1 of a wide-ranging conversation with recently retired Supreme Court judge, Peter Charleton.

To mark Episode 150 of The Fifth Court, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by Mr Justice Peter Charleton, recently retired from the Supreme Court.
In Part 1 of this extended interview, he reflects on republicanism and nationalism, growing up near Seán Lemass and Theodore Kingsmill Moore, music, Trinity, the King’s Inns, devilling with Peter Sutherland, early years at the Bar, criminal law, defending accused persons, and the deeper questions of crime, morality and human nature.
It is a thoughtful, personal and sometimes unexpectedly funny conversation with one of Ireland’s best-known jurists.

Before the interview, Mark and Peter discuss three recent cases from the Decisis.ie casebook.
The Decisis.ie case-law section is sponsored by Charlton Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of Dún Laoghaire.

Case 1: The High Court quashed a District Court judge’s refusal to convict in speed-limit cases, holding that judges must apply the law rather than substitute their own views on whether limits are fair.
Case 2: In DPP v O’Hara, the Court of Appeal upheld a murder and burglary conviction, rejecting challenges to DNA and search-warrant evidence.
Case 3: In a Hague Convention child-abduction case, the court refused to return a child to New Zealand because of concerns about the mother’s depression and risk of relapse.

This is Part 1 of a two-part interview. Part II will be posted next week.

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Bloomsday Special: The secret political life of James Joyce — and Frank Callanan’s final masterpiece

Was James Joyce really apolitical?
For decades, many scholars claimed Ireland's greatest writer stood apart from politics.

Frank Callanan disagreed.
Before his untimely death, the renowned barrister, historian and Parnell scholar spent 25 years researching what became his final work: James Joyce: A Political Life.
In this special Bloomsday episode of The Fifth Court, Bridget Hourican joins Peter Leonard and Mark Tottenham to discuss Frank's extraordinary final book, his lifelong fascination with Joyce, Parnell, Irish nationalism, exile, censorship and the political forces that shaped modern Ireland.
The conversation also becomes a moving tribute to Frank himself — one of the most beloved and intellectually gifted members of the Law Library.
Among the topics discussed:

Why Frank spent 25 years researching Joyce
The political meaning hidden inside Ulysses and Dubliners
Joyce's obsession with Parnell
Why Dublin publishers burned copies of Dubliners
Joyce, censorship and Irish respectability
Why Joyce left Ireland and never truly returned
Frank Callanan's remarkable legal and academic career
The challenge of completing a 900-page masterpiece after his death

For anyone interested in law, literature, Irish history or Bloomsday, this is a fascinating conversation.
Book recommendation:
James Joyce: A Political Life by Frank Callanan

Decisis casebook section sponsored by Charlton Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners.

1. The runaway truck case
Duggan v Logan (Mr Justice Oisín Quinn)
A driver was seriously injured when a truck rolled out of a filling station and into traffic with nobody behind the wheel after the driver failed to apply the handbrake.
Why it matters:
The High Court awarded damages of approximately €128,000 and provides a reminder that leaving a vehicle unsecured can create liability even when the driver is physically absent from the vehicle.
2. Turkish worker wins immigration rights challenge
Ozek v Minister for Justice (Mr Justice Simons)
A Turkish migrant worker successfully challenged the Minister's refusal to properly backdate an immigration permission.
Why it matters:
The Court found that EU-derived worker protections had not been correctly applied, reinforcing the importance of protecting migrant workers' rights under European law.
3. Mother and Baby Institutions Redress Scheme
Kiernan (otherwise John Duncan Morris) v Minister for Children (Mr Justice Owens)
A claimant challenged a decision that certain institutions were not covered by the Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme.
Why it matters:
The Court held that the legislation should be interpreted more broadly and that the applicant was entitled to seek redress under the scheme. The decision may affect how eligibility is assessed in future claims.
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