PodcastsBasketballWay of Champions Podcast

Way of Champions Podcast

John O'Sullivan
Way of Champions Podcast
Latest episode

574 episodes

  • Way of Champions Podcast

    #474 Joe De Sena, Founder of Spartan Obstacle Course Racing, on Why We Need to Teach Our Kids to Do Hard Things

    26/03/2026 | 46 mins.
    After building a multimillion-dollar pool and construction business in college, and creating a Wall Street trading firm, Joe De Sena set his sights on ripping 100 million people off their couches by creating the Spartan lifestyle. He moved his family to Pittsfield, Vermont to operate an organic farm, a bed and breakfast, and a general store for hikers. It was here his passion grew for ultramarathons, adventure races, and endurance events, and thus the idea for Spartan was born.
    With more than one million annual global participants at more than 270 events across more than 40 countries, Spartan offers heats for all fitness levels and ages, from beginner to elite and Kids as young as four-years-old. The brand has transformed more than seven million lives since it was founded in 2010. Joe turned an interest in endurance racing into a passion. His racing resume is the stuff of legend – over 50 ultra-events overall and 14 Ironman events in one year alone. De Sena is also the New York Times Best Selling Author of "Spartan Up" and "Spartan Fit," and recently released his third book, "The Spartan Way."
    Connect with Joe: www.joedesena.com or www.spartan.com
    BOOK A SPEAKER: Interested in having John or one of our speaking team come to your school, club or coaching event? Looking for leadership training for yoru student athletes, a coach development workshop or parent education? We are still booking Summer and Fall 2026 events, please email us to set up an introductory call [email protected]
    PUT IN YOUR BULK BOOK ORDERS FOR OUR BESTSELLING BOOKS, AND JOIN 2025 CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS FROM SYRACUSE MENS LAX, UNC AND NAVY WOMENS LAX, AND MCLAREN F1! These are just the most recent championship teams using THE CHAMPION TEAMMATE book with their athletes and support teams. Many of these coaches are also getting THE CHAMPION SPORTS PARENT so their team parents can be part of a successful culture. Schools and clubs are using EVERY MOMENT MATTERS for staff development and book clubs. Are you?  We have been fulfilling numerous bulk orders for some of the top high school and collegiate sports programs in the country, will your team be next?
    Click here to visit John's author page on Amazon
    Click here to visit Jerry's author page on Amazon
    Please email [email protected] if you want discounted pricing on 10 or more books on any of our books. Thanks everyone.
    This weeks podcast is brought to you by our newest sponsor, Zone 14 Coaching. Zone 14 Coaching is a company built by coaches for coaches. If you have ever ended a session thinking, "Did that practice really hit the mark?" you will love what they have created. Zone 14's next-gen journals for coaches and players help you plan every practice, reflect on what worked and track progress all season long. Built on intentional coaching and backed by neuroscience, they bring structure and purpose to your training. Visit zone14coaching.com and use code Champions20 for 20% off. Or if you want to outfit your whole team or club and improve consistency across coaches, you can get in touch with Zone 14 via their website to discuss bulk discounts.
    This week's podcast is brought to you by our friends at Sprocket Sports.  Sprocket Sports is a software platform for youth sports clubs.  Yeah, there are a lot of these systems out there, but Sprocket provides the full enchilada. They give you all the cool front-end stuff to make your club look good– like websites, communication tools and marketing tools – AND all the back-end transactions and services to run your business better so you can focus on what really matters – your players and your teams.
    Sprocket is built for those clubs looking to thrive, not just survive, in the competitive world of youth sports clubs.  So if you've been looking for a true business partner – not just another app – check them out today at https://sprocketsports.me/CTG.
    BECOME A PREMIUM MEMBER OF CHANGING THE GAME PROJECT TO SUPPORT THE PODCAST
    If you or your club/school is looking for all of our best content, from online courses to blog posts to interviews organized for coaches, parents and athletes, then become a premium member of Changing the Game Project today. For over a decade we have been creating materials to help change the game. and it has become a bit overwhelming to find old podcasts, blog posts and more. Now, we have organized it all for you, with areas for coaches, parents and even athletes to find materials to help compete better, and put some more play back in playing ball. Clubs please email [email protected] for pricing. 
    Become a Podcast Champion! This weeks podcast is also sponsored by our Patreon Podcast Champions. Help Support the Podcast and get FREE access to our Premium Membership, with well over $1000 of courses and materials. If you love the podcast, we would love for you to become a Podcast Champion, (https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions) for as little as a cup of coffee per month (OK, its a Venti Mocha), to help us up the ante and provide even better interviews, better sound, and an overall enhanced experience. Plus, as a $10 per month Podcast Super-Champion, you will be granted a Premium Changing the Game Project Membership, where you will have access to every course, interview and blog post we have created organized by topic from coaches to parents to athletes.
    Thank you for all your support these past eight years, and a special big thank you to all of you who become part of our inner circle, our patrons, who will enable us to take our podcast to the next level. https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions
  • Way of Champions Podcast

    #474 Joe De Sena, Founder of Spartan Obstacle Course Racing, on Why We Need to Teach Our Kids to Do Hard Things

    26/03/2026 | 46 mins.
    After building a multimillion-dollar pool and construction business in college, and creating a Wall Street trading firm, Joe De Sena set his sights on ripping 100 million people off their couches by creating the Spartan lifestyle. He moved his family to Pittsfield, Vermont to operate an organic farm, a bed and breakfast, and a general store for hikers. It was here his passion grew for ultramarathons, adventure races, and endurance events, and thus the idea for Spartan was born.
    With more than one million annual global participants at more than 270 events across more than 40 countries, Spartan offers heats for all fitness levels and ages, from beginner to elite and Kids as young as four-years-old. The brand has transformed more than seven million lives since it was founded in 2010. Joe turned an interest in endurance racing into a passion. His racing resume is the stuff of legend – over 50 ultra-events overall and 14 Ironman events in one year alone. De Sena is also the New York Times Best Selling Author of "Spartan Up" and "Spartan Fit," and recently released his third book, "The Spartan Way."
    Connect with Joe: www.joedesena.com or www.spartan.com
    BOOK A SPEAKER: Interested in having John or one of our speaking team come to your school, club or coaching event? Looking for leadership training for yoru student athletes, a coach development workshop or parent education? We are still booking Summer and Fall 2026 events, please email us to set up an introductory call [email protected]
    PUT IN YOUR BULK BOOK ORDERS FOR OUR BESTSELLING BOOKS, AND JOIN 2025 CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS FROM SYRACUSE MENS LAX, UNC AND NAVY WOMENS LAX, AND MCLAREN F1! These are just the most recent championship teams using THE CHAMPION TEAMMATE book with their athletes and support teams. Many of these coaches are also getting THE CHAMPION SPORTS PARENT so their team parents can be part of a successful culture. Schools and clubs are using EVERY MOMENT MATTERS for staff development and book clubs. Are you?  We have been fulfilling numerous bulk orders for some of the top high school and collegiate sports programs in the country, will your team be next?
    Click here to visit John's author page on Amazon
    Click here to visit Jerry's author page on Amazon
    Please email [email protected] if you want discounted pricing on 10 or more books on any of our books. Thanks everyone.
    This weeks podcast is brought to you by our newest sponsor, Zone 14 Coaching. Zone 14 Coaching is a company built by coaches for coaches. If you have ever ended a session thinking, "Did that practice really hit the mark?" you will love what they have created. Zone 14's next-gen journals for coaches and players help you plan every practice, reflect on what worked and track progress all season long. Built on intentional coaching and backed by neuroscience, they bring structure and purpose to your training. Visit zone14coaching.com and use code Champions20 for 20% off. Or if you want to outfit your whole team or club and improve consistency across coaches, you can get in touch with Zone 14 via their website to discuss bulk discounts.
    This week's podcast is brought to you by our friends at Sprocket Sports.  Sprocket Sports is a software platform for youth sports clubs.  Yeah, there are a lot of these systems out there, but Sprocket provides the full enchilada. They give you all the cool front-end stuff to make your club look good– like websites, communication tools and marketing tools – AND all the back-end transactions and services to run your business better so you can focus on what really matters – your players and your teams.
    Sprocket is built for those clubs looking to thrive, not just survive, in the competitive world of youth sports clubs.  So if you've been looking for a true business partner – not just another app – check them out today at https://sprocketsports.me/CTG.
    BECOME A PREMIUM MEMBER OF CHANGING THE GAME PROJECT TO SUPPORT THE PODCAST
    If you or your club/school is looking for all of our best content, from online courses to blog posts to interviews organized for coaches, parents and athletes, then become a premium member of Changing the Game Project today. For over a decade we have been creating materials to help change the game. and it has become a bit overwhelming to find old podcasts, blog posts and more. Now, we have organized it all for you, with areas for coaches, parents and even athletes to find materials to help compete better, and put some more play back in playing ball. Clubs please email [email protected] for pricing. 
    Become a Podcast Champion! This weeks podcast is also sponsored by our Patreon Podcast Champions. Help Support the Podcast and get FREE access to our Premium Membership, with well over $1000 of courses and materials. If you love the podcast, we would love for you to become a Podcast Champion, (https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions) for as little as a cup of coffee per month (OK, its a Venti Mocha), to help us up the ante and provide even better interviews, better sound, and an overall enhanced experience. Plus, as a $10 per month Podcast Super-Champion, you will be granted a Premium Changing the Game Project Membership, where you will have access to every course, interview and blog post we have created organized by topic from coaches to parents to athletes.
    Thank you for all your support these past eight years, and a special big thank you to all of you who become part of our inner circle, our patrons, who will enable us to take our podcast to the next level. https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions
  • Way of Champions Podcast

    #473 Jason Sacks, CEO of Positive Coaching Alliance, on Educating One Million Coaches and Making Systemic Change in Youth Sports

    19/03/2026 | 1h 5 mins.
    Jason Sacks is the CEO of Positive Coaching Alliance (@positivecoachus). He joined the organization in April 2006 and has since served in a variety of capacities, including President, Chief Development Officer, EVP for Business Development & Philanthropy, Director of Partnership Development, and as Executive Director of PCA's Chicago, IL chapter. Jason began his career at PCA as the Partner Development Associate for the New Jersey/Philadelphia region. 
    Most recently as PCA's President, Jason led the organization's growth of impact to millions of youth participating in youth sports and created innovative partnerships across all of youth sports, media outlets, leading brands, including Curry Brand/Under Armour, ESPN, National Women's Soccer League, Major League Baseball, National Basketball Association, Little League International, U.S. Soccer Federation, and many more. Under his leadership, PCA has successfully expanded its reach and impact through partnerships and attracting leading philanthropic organizations to support PCA's commitment to ensuring youth sports are done right in all communities across the country.
    A recognized national leader in the youth sports space, in November 2022, Jason was appointed to the U.S. Soccer Federation's New Participant Safety Taskforce, which was formed following the release of Sally Q. Yates' independent investigation. The taskforce is charged with coordinating and collaborating on conduct-related policies and procedures from the youth level to professional leagues and senior national teams and driving change across the entire soccer ecosystem.
    Connect at www.PositiveCoach.org
    BOOK A SPEAKER: Interested in having John or one of our speaking team come to your school, club or coaching event? We are still booking Summer and Fall 2026 events, please email us to set up an introductory call [email protected]
    PUT IN YOUR BULK BOOK ORDERS FOR OUR BESTSELLING BOOKS, AND JOIN 2025 CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS FROM SYRACUSE MENS LAX, UNC AND NAVY WOMENS LAX, AND MCLAREN F1! These are just the most recent championship teams using THE CHAMPION TEAMMATE book with their athletes and support teams. Many of these coaches are also getting THE CHAMPION SPORTS PARENT so their team parents can be part of a successful culture. Schools and clubs are using EVERY MOMENT MATTERS for staff development and book clubs. Are you?  We have been fulfilling numerous bulk orders for some of the top high school and collegiate sports programs in the country, will your team be next?
    Click here to visit John's author page on Amazon
    Click here to visit Jerry's author page on Amazon
    Please email [email protected] if you want discounted pricing on 10 or more books on any of our books. Thanks everyone.
    This weeks podcast is brought to you by our newest sponsor, Zone 14 Coaching. Zone 14 Coaching is a company built by coaches for coaches. If you have ever ended a session thinking, "Did that practice really hit the mark?" you will love what they have created. Zone 14's next-gen journals for coaches and players help you plan every practice, reflect on what worked and track progress all season long. Built on intentional coaching and backed by neuroscience, they bring structure and purpose to your training. Visit zone14coaching.com and use code Champions20 for 20% off. Or if you want to outfit your whole team or club and improve consistency across coaches, you can get in touch with Zone 14 via their website to discuss bulk discounts. 
    This week's podcast is brought to you by our friends at Sprocket Sports.  Sprocket Sports is a software platform for youth sports clubs.  Yeah, there are a lot of these systems out there, but Sprocket provides the full enchilada. They give you all the cool front-end stuff to make your club look good– like websites, communication tools and marketing tools – AND all the back-end transactions and services to run your business better so you can focus on what really matters – your players and your teams.
    Sprocket is built for those clubs looking to thrive, not just survive, in the competitive world of youth sports clubs.  So if you've been looking for a true business partner – not just another app – check them out today at https://sprocketsports.me/CTG.
    BECOME A PREMIUM MEMBER OF CHANGING THE GAME PROJECT TO SUPPORT THE PODCAST
    If you or your club/school is looking for all of our best content, from online courses to blog posts to interviews organized for coaches, parents and athletes, then become a premium member of Changing the Game Project today. For over a decade we have been creating materials to help change the game. and it has become a bit overwhelming to find old podcasts, blog posts and more. Now, we have organized it all for you, with areas for coaches, parents and even athletes to find materials to help compete better, and put some more play back in playing ball. Clubs please email [email protected] for pricing. 
    Become a Podcast Champion! This weeks podcast is also sponsored by our Patreon Podcast Champions. Help Support the Podcast and get FREE access to our Premium Membership, with well over $1000 of courses and materials. If you love the podcast, we would love for you to become a Podcast Champion, (https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions) for as little as a cup of coffee per month (OK, its a Venti Mocha), to help us up the ante and provide even better interviews, better sound, and an overall enhanced experience. Plus, as a $10 per month Podcast Super-Champion, you will be granted a Premium Changing the Game Project Membership, where you will have access to every course, interview and blog post we have created organized by topic from coaches to parents to athletes.
    Thank you for all your support these past eight years, and a special big thank you to all of you who become part of our inner circle, our patrons, who will enable us to take our podcast to the next level. https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions
  • Way of Champions Podcast

    #473 Jason Sacks, CEO of Positive Coaching Alliance, on Educating One Million Coaches and Making Systemic Change in Youth Sports

    19/03/2026 | 1h 5 mins.
    Jason Sacks is the CEO of Positive Coaching Alliance. He joined the organization in April 2006 and has since served in a variety of capacities, including President, Chief Development Officer, EVP for Business Development & Philanthropy, Director of Partnership Development, and as Executive Director of PCA's Chicago, IL chapter. Jason began his career at PCA as the Partner Development Associate for the New Jersey/Philadelphia region. 
    Most recently as PCA's President, Jason led the organization's growth of impact to millions of youth participating in youth sports and created innovative partnerships across all of youth sports, media outlets, leading brands, including Curry Brand/Under Armour, ESPN, National Women's Soccer League, Major League Baseball, National Basketball Association, Little League International, U.S. Soccer Federation, and many more. Under his leadership, PCA has successfully expanded its reach and impact through partnerships and attracting leading philanthropic organizations to support PCA's commitment to ensuring youth sports are done right in all communities across the country.
    A recognized national leader in the youth sports space, in November 2022, Jason was appointed to the U.S. Soccer Federation's New Participant Safety Taskforce, which was formed following the release of Sally Q. Yates' independent investigation. The taskforce is charged with coordinating and collaborating on conduct-related policies and procedures from the youth level to professional leagues and senior national teams and driving change across the entire soccer ecosystem.
    BOOK A SPEAKER: Interested in having John or one of our speaking team come to your school, club or coaching event? We are still booking Summer and Fall 2026 events, please email us to set up an introductory call [email protected]
    PUT IN YOUR BULK BOOK ORDERS FOR OUR BESTSELLING BOOKS, AND JOIN 2025 CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS FROM SYRACUSE MENS LAX, UNC AND NAVY WOMENS LAX, AND MCLAREN F1! These are just the most recent championship teams using THE CHAMPION TEAMMATE book with their athletes and support teams. Many of these coaches are also getting THE CHAMPION SPORTS PARENT so their team parents can be part of a successful culture. Schools and clubs are using EVERY MOMENT MATTERS for staff development and book clubs. Are you?  We have been fulfilling numerous bulk orders for some of the top high school and collegiate sports programs in the country, will your team be next?
    Click here to visit John's author page on Amazon
    Click here to visit Jerry's author page on Amazon
    Please email [email protected] if you want discounted pricing on 10 or more books on any of our books. Thanks everyone.
    This weeks podcast is brought to you by our newest sponsor, Zone 14 Coaching. Zone 14 Coaching is a company built by coaches for coaches. If you have ever ended a session thinking, "Did that practice really hit the mark?" you will love what they have created. Zone 14's next-gen journals for coaches and players help you plan every practice, reflect on what worked and track progress all season long. Built on intentional coaching and backed by neuroscience, they bring structure and purpose to your training. Visit zone14coaching.com and use code Champions20 for 20% off. Or if you want to outfit your whole team or club and improve consistency across coaches, you can get in touch with Zone 14 via their website to discuss bulk discounts. 
    This week's podcast is brought to you by our friends at Sprocket Sports.  Sprocket Sports is a software platform for youth sports clubs.  Yeah, there are a lot of these systems out there, but Sprocket provides the full enchilada. They give you all the cool front-end stuff to make your club look good– like websites, communication tools and marketing tools – AND all the back-end transactions and services to run your business better so you can focus on what really matters – your players and your teams.
    Sprocket is built for those clubs looking to thrive, not just survive, in the competitive world of youth sports clubs.  So if you've been looking for a true business partner – not just another app – check them out today at https://sprocketsports.me/CTG.
    BECOME A PREMIUM MEMBER OF CHANGING THE GAME PROJECT TO SUPPORT THE PODCAST
    If you or your club/school is looking for all of our best content, from online courses to blog posts to interviews organized for coaches, parents and athletes, then become a premium member of Changing the Game Project today. For over a decade we have been creating materials to help change the game. and it has become a bit overwhelming to find old podcasts, blog posts and more. Now, we have organized it all for you, with areas for coaches, parents and even athletes to find materials to help compete better, and put some more play back in playing ball. Clubs please email [email protected] for pricing. 
    Become a Podcast Champion! This weeks podcast is also sponsored by our Patreon Podcast Champions. Help Support the Podcast and get FREE access to our Premium Membership, with well over $1000 of courses and materials. If you love the podcast, we would love for you to become a Podcast Champion, (https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions) for as little as a cup of coffee per month (OK, its a Venti Mocha), to help us up the ante and provide even better interviews, better sound, and an overall enhanced experience. Plus, as a $10 per month Podcast Super-Champion, you will be granted a Premium Changing the Game Project Membership, where you will have access to every course, interview and blog post we have created organized by topic from coaches to parents to athletes.
    Thank you for all your support these past eight years, and a special big thank you to all of you who become part of our inner circle, our patrons, who will enable us to take our podcast to the next level. https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions
  • Way of Champions Podcast

    #473 Jason Sacks, CEO of Positive Coaching Alliance, on Educating One Million Coaches and Making Systemic Change in Youth Sports

    19/03/2026 | 1h 5 mins.
    Jason Sacks is the CEO of Positive Coaching Alliance. He joined the organization in April 2006 and has since served in a variety of capacities, including President, Chief Development Officer, EVP for Business Development & Philanthropy, Director of Partnership Development, and as Executive Director of PCA's Chicago, IL chapter. Jason began his career at PCA as the Partner Development Associate for the New Jersey/Philadelphia region. 
    Most recently as PCA's President, Jason led the organization's growth of impact to millions of youth participating in youth sports and created innovative partnerships across all of youth sports, media outlets, leading brands, including Curry Brand/Under Armour, ESPN, National Women's Soccer League, Major League Baseball, National Basketball Association, Little League International, U.S. Soccer Federation, and many more. Under his leadership, PCA has successfully expanded its reach and impact through partnerships and attracting leading philanthropic organizations to support PCA's commitment to ensuring youth sports are done right in all communities across the country.
    A recognized national leader in the youth sports space, in November 2022, Jason was appointed to the U.S. Soccer Federation's New Participant Safety Taskforce, which was formed following the release of Sally Q. Yates' independent investigation. The taskforce is charged with coordinating and collaborating on conduct-related policies and procedures from the youth level to professional leagues and senior national teams and driving change across the entire soccer ecosystem.
    BOOK A SPEAKER: Interested in having John or one of our speaking team come to your school, club or coaching event? We are still booking Summer and Fall 2026 events, please email us to set up an introductory call [email protected]
    PUT IN YOUR BULK BOOK ORDERS FOR OUR BESTSELLING BOOKS, AND JOIN 2025 CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS FROM SYRACUSE MENS LAX, UNC AND NAVY WOMENS LAX, AND MCLAREN F1! These are just the most recent championship teams using THE CHAMPION TEAMMATE book with their athletes and support teams. Many of these coaches are also getting THE CHAMPION SPORTS PARENT so their team parents can be part of a successful culture. Schools and clubs are using EVERY MOMENT MATTERS for staff development and book clubs. Are you?  We have been fulfilling numerous bulk orders for some of the top high school and collegiate sports programs in the country, will your team be next?
    Click here to visit John's author page on Amazon
    Click here to visit Jerry's author page on Amazon
    Please email [email protected] if you want discounted pricing on 10 or more books on any of our books. Thanks everyone.
    This weeks podcast is brought to you by our newest sponsor, Zone 14 Coaching. Zone 14 Coaching is a company built by coaches for coaches. If you have ever ended a session thinking, "Did that practice really hit the mark?" you will love what they have created. Zone 14's next-gen journals for coaches and players help you plan every practice, reflect on what worked and track progress all season long. Built on intentional coaching and backed by neuroscience, they bring structure and purpose to your training. Visit zone14coaching.com and use code Champions20 for 20% off. Or if you want to outfit your whole team or club and improve consistency across coaches, you can get in touch with Zone 14 via their website to discuss bulk discounts. 
    This week's podcast is brought to you by our friends at Sprocket Sports.  Sprocket Sports is a software platform for youth sports clubs.  Yeah, there are a lot of these systems out there, but Sprocket provides the full enchilada. They give you all the cool front-end stuff to make your club look good– like websites, communication tools and marketing tools – AND all the back-end transactions and services to run your business better so you can focus on what really matters – your players and your teams.
    Sprocket is built for those clubs looking to thrive, not just survive, in the competitive world of youth sports clubs.  So if you've been looking for a true business partner – not just another app – check them out today at https://sprocketsports.me/CTG.
    BECOME A PREMIUM MEMBER OF CHANGING THE GAME PROJECT TO SUPPORT THE PODCAST
    If you or your club/school is looking for all of our best content, from online courses to blog posts to interviews organized for coaches, parents and athletes, then become a premium member of Changing the Game Project today. For over a decade we have been creating materials to help change the game. and it has become a bit overwhelming to find old podcasts, blog posts and more. Now, we have organized it all for you, with areas for coaches, parents and even athletes to find materials to help compete better, and put some more play back in playing ball. Clubs please email [email protected] for pricing. 
    Become a Podcast Champion! This weeks podcast is also sponsored by our Patreon Podcast Champions. Help Support the Podcast and get FREE access to our Premium Membership, with well over $1000 of courses and materials. If you love the podcast, we would love for you to become a Podcast Champion, (https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions) for as little as a cup of coffee per month (OK, its a Venti Mocha), to help us up the ante and provide even better interviews, better sound, and an overall enhanced experience. Plus, as a $10 per month Podcast Super-Champion, you will be granted a Premium Changing the Game Project Membership, where you will have access to every course, interview and blog post we have created organized by topic from coaches to parents to athletes.
    Thank you for all your support these past eight years, and a special big thank you to all of you who become part of our inner circle, our patrons, who will enable us to take our podcast to the next level. https://www.patreon.com/wayofchampions

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About Way of Champions Podcast

The Way of Champions Podcast is hosted by Dr. Jerry Lynch and John O'Sullivan, team culture and performance specialists. Each week we connect you with the top minds in sports, coaching, leadership, and building championship programs so you can take your athletes and teams to the next level.
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