People Property Place

This week, I sat down with Toby Phelps, Co-President of BGO, who has spent 30 years at the top of European real estate investing and been involved in over $20 billion of transactions across logistics, office, retail, residential and healthcare assets.
In this conversation, Toby traces a career that took him from JLL in the mid-nineties through Morgan Stanley's private equity real estate team, where he was in the building next to Lehman Brothers when the financial crisis hit. He reflects on what that moment did to his understanding of risk, and how the lessons absorbed at Tishman Speyer under Jerry Spier shaped everything that followed.
We explore the strategic evolution from Green Oak to BGO, now approaching $100 billion in AUM, why the merger with Bentall Kennedy made sense when so many others didn't, and what institutional investors are really demanding from managers today.
Toby also makes a compelling case for why European real estate remains one of the most misunderstood opportunities in global capital markets right now and why location, location, location needs a serious update.
And of course, I asked Toby the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy?
Drop your thoughts in the comments. I would love to hear your take.
Key Topics
✅ From JLL to Morgan Stanley — building the foundations of a 30 year career
✅ Lehman Brothers, the financial crisis and what it really teaches you about risk
✅ Green Oak to BGO — the merger strategy that changed everything
✅ Why Europe is misunderstood by global capital
✅ AI, data science and the US versus Europe gap in real estate investing
Episode Chapters
00:00 - Introduction
00:09 - How Toby Got Into Real Estate
01:58 - Early Career at JLL
05:19 - Joining Morgan Stanley Real Estate
07:47 - Lessons from the Global Financial Crisis
09:49 - Tishman Speyer and Jerry Spier
12:42 - The Genesis of Green Oak
23:07 - Investment Strategy — Top Down Bottom Up
28:09 - Green Oak to BGO
31:36 - Sun Life and the Importance of a Capital Partner
33:57 - BGO's Five European Strategies
37:44 - Private Wealth Capital
42:27 - Location, Asset Quality and Power
44:01 - Is Europe Undervalued by Global Capital
46:20 - Succession Planning and Leadership
49:15 - AI and Data Science in Real Estate
54:00 - Attitude and Advice for the Next Generation
55:15 - The £500 Million Question
The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers.
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This week, I sat down with Mathieu Elshout to explore the journey that took him from environmental sciences into institutional real estate investing, and how he is now helping build the European property platform for one of Australia's fastest growing pension funds.
Mathieu is Head of European Property at Aware Super UK. Before joining Aware Super, he spent more than a decade at PGGM managing European real estate investments through the Global Financial Crisis and subsequent recovery, and later worked at Patrizia where he helped develop the firm's sustainability and impact investing strategy.
In this conversation, Mathieu shares how his early career began in environmental consultancy before gradually transitioning into the real estate sector. That background continues to shape the way he thinks about real assets today, particularly the growing importance of sustainability, long term value creation and the role real estate plays in the wider economy.  
We discuss his time at PGGM and the experience of managing institutional real estate portfolios during the Global Financial Crisis. Mathieu explains how those years shaped his perspective on leverage, liquidity and market cycles, and why some of the most valuable lessons in investing are learned during periods of stress.  
The conversation also explores his move to Patrizia and the development of its impact investing strategy. Mathieu explains how sustainability evolved from a niche topic into a core investment consideration, and why institutional investors increasingly see environmental and social outcomes as aligned with long term financial performance.  
Finally, we discuss Aware Super's growing presence in Europe and how the Australian superannuation model is creating some of the largest and most influential pools of capital in global real estate. Mathieu explains how the fund is building its European portfolio through partnerships and platforms including investments in UK residential, Spanish rental housing and hospitality, and why alignment with operating partners is critical when deploying long term capital.  
Key Topics Covered in This Episode
✅ From Environmental Science to Real Estate
Mathieu's path from sustainability consultancy into institutional property investing.
✅ Lessons from the Global Financial Crisis
What managing real estate portfolios through a market downturn teaches investors.
✅ Sustainability and Impact Investing
How ESG and impact strategies became central to institutional real estate investing.
✅ Building Aware Super's European Platform
Why the Australian pension fund model is expanding rapidly into global real estate.
✅ Investing Through Partnerships
Why alignment with operating partners is essential for long term capital.
EPISODE CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
01:32 From Environmental Science to Real Estate
06:45 Early Career and Moving into Institutional Investing
14:10 Managing Portfolios Through the Global Financial Crisis
25:34 Sustainability and Impact Investing at Patrizia
36:22 The Aware Super Platform and European Expansion
47:18 Partnerships, Platforms and Investment Strategy
56:40 Where Opportunities Exist in Today's Market
01:02:11 The £500M Investment Question
And of course, I asked Mathieu the big question:
Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy?
If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take.
The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers.
🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE
👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Michael Zerda to unpack a career that spans private equity real estate, distressed credit, structured capital and some of the most complex investment situations across Europe and the United States.
Michael is Global Head of Real Estate at Santander Alternative Investments and CEO of Deva Capital, the real estate and corporate capital solutions investment arm of the business. Over a 25 year career, he has helped raise more than $5 billion of capital and overseen the deployment of more than $11 billion of equity across more than 200 transactions across Western Europe.
In this conversation, Michael shares the story behind his journey from a Polish immigrant growing up in Texas to becoming a global real estate investor working across debt, equity and special situations. We explore how his early career developed through private equity real estate, distressed debt and high yield investing, and how those experiences shaped the way he approaches market cycles today.  
We discuss why the widely predicted wave of real estate distress following the interest rate shock of 2022 has not materialised in the way many investors expected. Michael explains how stronger bank balance sheets, lower leverage and asset owners holding positions for longer have fundamentally changed the dynamics compared with previous cycles.  
The conversation also explores where stress is actually appearing in the market today. Rather than dramatic distress events, Michael highlights a quieter liquidity squeeze affecting operators whose business models rely on transactions and capital raising. For investors able to deploy flexible capital across debt, structured equity or partnerships, this environment may present significant opportunities.  
Finally, we discuss Michael's current role within Santander Alternative Investments, how the platform integrates real estate investing with corporate special situations, and where he sees opportunities emerging across Europe as markets adjust to the new interest rate environment.  
Key Topics Covered in This Episode
✅ From Poland to Texas
Michael's unconventional journey into global real estate investing.
✅ The Distress That Never Came
Why the expected wave of distressed real estate has taken longer to appear.
✅ Liquidity Stress Beneath the Surface
How fundraising challenges and fewer transactions are impacting operators.
✅ Debt, Equity and Special Situations
Why flexible capital structures are becoming increasingly important.
✅ Where Opportunities Exist in Europe
How different markets are behaving very differently in the current cycle.
 
EPISODE CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
01:08 From Poland to Texas
05:12 Discovering Real Estate Investing
11:04 Early Career in Private Equity Real Estate
19:42 Distressed Debt and Market Cycles
30:11 Why the Distress Wave Never Came
42:05 Liquidity Stress in Real Estate
51:15 Building Deva Capital
57:55 Where Opportunities Exist in Europe
01:02:48 Deep Value Investing in Today's Market
01:07:10 The £500M Investment Question
 
And of course, I asked Michael the big question:
Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy?
If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take.
The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers.
🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE
👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Emma Cariaga, Chief Operating Officer at British Land, to unpack what it really takes to run one of the UK's largest listed real estate businesses during a period of structural change, capital market pressure, and sector consolidation.
Emma is COO of British Land, a FTSE 100 property company with over 170 years of history and a portfolio concentrated in retail parks and London campuses. Having built her career from trainee land buyer to development director at Landsec before joining British Land, Emma brings deep operational and development experience across residential, mixed use, large scale regeneration and campus strategy, including the transformation of Canada Water into a major London campus.
In this conversation, Emma explains how real estate has fundamentally shifted from a passive, rent collecting asset class into an operational business requiring agility, data, customer centricity and active asset management. We explore why British Land continued developing while others paused, how limited supply of prime London office space is driving rental growth, and why retail parks have repositioned themselves into a 99% occupied format built around affordability, flexibility and convenience.
We also discuss the increasing importance of scale in listed real estate, the wave of M&A activity across the REIT sector, and whether smaller platforms can realistically survive in today's capital constrained environment. Emma shares insights on leadership, transitioning from being "on the tools" to operating at executive level, and why building non executive experience alongside an executive career can sharpen judgement.
Finally, we look at British Land's strategic positioning, its new headquarters move onto one of its own campuses, and what the next chapter may look like for the listed real estate sector.
 
Key Topics Covered in This Episode
✅ From Land Buyer to FTSE 100 Leadership
Emma's route into real estate and the lessons learned along the way.
✅ The Return of Prime London Offices
Why top quality space near transport nodes is in limited supply and delivering rental growth.
✅ Retail Parks Repositioned
How omni retailing and cost efficiency have driven 99% occupancy.
✅ Real Estate Has Become Operational
Flex products, shorter leases and a more customer focused asset model.
✅ Scale, M&A and The Future of Listed Real Estate
Why scale may now be essential in public markets.
And of course, I asked Emma the big question:
Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy?
If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take.
The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers.
🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE
👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Michela Hancock to unpack the journey from psychology graduate to property entrepreneur, and how she helped pioneer institutional build to rent in the UK long before it was widely accepted.
Michela is the Co-Founder and CEO of Hilltop Property Partners. Before launching Hilltop, she worked across US and UK real estate, including early exposure to multifamily housing in the United States, and later bringing that institutional rental mindset into the UK market at a time when many believed renting would never become a lifestyle choice.
In this conversation, Michela shares how growing up in a family business shaped her entrepreneurial mindset, and why she made the difficult decision to pivot away from a career in clinical psychology after years of study. That willingness to change direction led her into real estate development, where she combined US multifamily experience with a long term conviction around UK rental housing.
We explore the early days of institutional build to rent in the UK, when pension funds and advisors were sceptical, and Michela was repeatedly told that everyone in Britain wanted to own rather than rent. She explains how she built conviction around demographic change, quality rental supply gaps and the concept of renting as a lifestyle choice.
The conversation then moves into Hilltop's strategy, targeting the so called squeezed middle and key worker demographic, where the need for high quality, attainable rental housing is most acute. Michela outlines the viability pressures facing mid market rental delivery today, and why building now into a supply constrained environment could create long term opportunity.
We also discuss capital raising in a global market where UK development competes for attention and allocation, and why resilience, persistence and finding the right partner can be more important than finding hundreds of investors. Michela shares candid lessons on entrepreneurship, including the advice she received that starting a business is like being in a rowboat with no oars, and why she chose to do it anyway.
This is a conversation about conviction, mid market housing, entrepreneurship and building through difficult cycles.
Key Topics Covered in This Episode
✅ From Psychology to Property
Why Michela pivoted careers after years of study and what that taught her about risk and conviction.
✅ Early Institutional Build to Rent
How she introduced US multifamily thinking into a sceptical UK market.
✅ Renting as a Lifestyle Choice
Challenging the assumption that everyone wants to own.
✅ The Squeezed Middle Opportunity
Targeting key workers and mid market rental housing in a viability constrained environment.
✅ Raising Capital in a Global Market
Why alignment and persistence matter more than volume.
✅ Building Hilltop Property Partners
Entrepreneurship, partnership and long term platform thinking.
✅ Resilience and Founder Mindset
The "never leave your chair" philosophy and showing up every day.
And of course, I asked Michela the big question:
Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy?
If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take.
The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/