The Non-Billable Podcast

John Quinn is one of the most influential figures in modern Big Law. In this episode, he reflects on how Quinn Emanuel grew from a four-lawyer spin-out in Los Angeles into the world’s leading litigation-only firm - which is constantly rated as the the “most feared” firm. Quinn explains that the disputes-only model wasn’t fully formed on day one, but became a powerful differentiator once the firm realised that “we do one thing and we think we’re the best at that,” rather than trying to be everything to everybody.A central theme of the conversation is why specialisation - particularly being willing to act against the world’s largest commercial banks - created an “unmet need in the marketplace” that full-service firms couldn’t fill because of conflicts. Quinn also discusses how that focus helped build internal cohesion: “we’re all litigators,” he says, which avoids the fragmentation he sees inside large full-service partnerships.Quinn offers a candid comparison between litigation in the US and the UK, from the power of depositions and jury trials to the cost structures and role of regulators like the DOJ. He also shares his perspective on the evolution of Big Law, including rising concentration at the top end, the erosion of lockstep, the growth of non-equity partnerships, and why he thinks the business of law itself “hasn’t changed much,” despite constant talk of transformation.The episode closes with Quinn’s views on AI, private equity investment in law firms, and what actually makes a great lawyer. Chapters00:01 Introduction00:55 On launching Law Disrupted and staying busy03:38 Founding Quinn Emanuel and the early years05:02 Why Quinn Emanuel became a litigation only firm08:14 Suing the banks and finding an unmet market niche09:40 Opening London before the financial crisis10:07 Building the world’s largest patent litigation practice11:51 US vs UK litigation and the power of depositions16:04 Costs, risk and why US litigation works differently20:52 How Big Law has changed and why the strongest firms win22:23 Why law is a “stupid business” structurally24:26 Lockstep, partner pay and the rise of superstar compensation33:14 Private equity, external capital and law firm ownership35:11 Why AI won’t replace litigators anytime soon40:26 What makes a great lawyer and why judgment matters mostAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Pierson Ferdinand launched in January 2024 in what it says was the largest law firm debut in US history - starting with around 130 partners and growing to more than 270 in under two years. In this episode, co-founders Michael Pierson and Joel Ferdinand explain the model behind what they call an “AI-native,” fully distributed, partner-only law firm.They break down how the structure works: no physical offices, every lawyer signs a partnership agreement, and compensation is decided by a formula-based algorithm that updates in real time. Partners keep a far greater share of their billings than in Big Law, with Michael noting that most lawyers who join “earn 2 to 3x what they were earning” at traditional firms. Pay is completely transparent: every partner can see every other partner’s earnings inside the firm’s internal app.A big part of the model is technology. The firm mandates firm-wide licences for Harvey AI and uses additional tools across the business to automate both back-office processes and junior-level work - something they say they’ve “replaced almost all of” already. AI is now part of standard workflows: summarising due diligence, producing first drafts, organising deal terms and creating client-ready matrices and charts.Michael and Joel also discuss their London expansion - already more than 20 fee-earners and growing - and their recruitment pitch: a chance to escape the traditional hierarchy, avoid massive infrastructure costs, and build a practice with more autonomy and more upside. “Happy lawyers make better lawyers,” Joel says. “We’ve been purpose-built for people who want something different.”Chapters00:01 Introduction01:00 Introducing Pierson Ferdinand & the Founders02:20 How the Firm Launched as the Largest Debut in US History03:37 Inside the Distributed, Partner-Only Model04:29 How Partnership, Compensation & the “Pro Algorithm” Work06:48 Why Remote-First Makes the Economics Work07:22 Firm vs Partner Clients & How Work Is Shared08:40 How Matters Are Staffed Without Associates10:11 Horizontal Integration & Internal Work-Sharing11:16 The Pitch to Clients: Big-Law Quality at One-Third Less13:01 The Firm’s AI Strategy - Harvey & Beyond15:58 Could This Model Work Without AI?17:13 What Lawyers Want: Frustrations With Traditional Big Law18:23 London Launch: Practice Areas & Early Momentum21:14 Competing in London’s Hyper-Competitive Market22:19 The Pitch to London Laterals24:17 Can Partners Earn as Much as at Kirkland or Paul Weiss?27:02 Radical Transparency: Everyone Sees Everyone’s Pay28:02 The Big Catch - Why This Model Isn’t for Everyone30:08 Growth Plans for the Next Five Years31:43 Culture, Community & Why “Happy Lawyers Make Better Lawyers”About Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

In this episode, we speak with Simon Leaf - a former Mishcon de Reya partner who has launched Three Points Law, a tech-enabled boutique focused on technology, sport and commercial/IP work alongside fellow former Mishcon lawyer Tom Murray. After 15 years in Big Law, Simon left to build a firm that uses AI from day one and is structured for the kind of fast, high-volume commercial work he handles.Simon explains why the traditional model no longer fits. As his hourly rate rose and teams grew around him, he felt further from clients and constrained by incentives tied to billable hours. At Three Points, he’s leaning into value-driven pricing and using AI to cut out most junior-level work so he and co-founder Tom can stay close to clients and move faster.He shares how the firm is using Legora and other AI tools across the workflow - from business development and fee proposals to standardised contract review processes. The tech isn’t perfect, he says, but in the hands of experienced lawyers it’s powerful enough that he’s “100%” confident it replaces the need for junior hires. The early traction has been strong enough that they’re already recruiting senior lawyers instead.Simon also breaks down the mechanics of starting a modern boutique: partnering with Excello for back-office and regulatory support, avoiding external capital to stay client-focused, and building a culture where he can do high-quality work without the pressures of Big Law. His advice to others thinking of making the leap? If you have the relationships and the appetite to do things differently, “go for it.”Chapters00:01 Introduction01:00 Simon’s Background01:56 Why Three Points Law?03:09 Life at Mishcon & Leading the Sports Group03:46 Inside Premier League Player Contracts06:23 Why Big Law No Longer Fit09:10 The Billable Hour Problem10:58 Going All-In on AI from Day One13:23 How AI Replaces Junior Work16:23 Moving Away from the Billable Hour19:12 Why Human Lawyers Still Matter20:18 Will More Boutiques Break Away?21:58 Three Points’ Vision and Culture23:18 How They Set Up the Firm27:41 Advice for Aspiring Boutique FoundersAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Alongside Harvey, Legora has quickly become a frontrunner in the legal AI platform race, offering lawyers a suite of productivity tools for contract review, drafting, legal research and large-scale document analysis. Its rise has been startlingly fast. Founded just two years ago, Legora hit a $1.8 billion valuation in its October funding round and has signed a wave of major UK firms this year alone.Today on the podcast, we’re joined by Alex Fortescue-Webb, Legora’s head of UK and Ireland and head of legal engineering. Alex began his career as an M&A lawyer at CMS before moving into legal operations and managed services roles at BCG, Axiom, Thomson Reuters and EY.Alex breaks down what Legora actually does: reviewing and comparing documents in seconds, handling heavy diligence exercises, and assisting with drafting directly inside Word. He also talks through the current limits of legal AI - especially the challenge of missing context - and why complex tasks still need to be broken down into smaller steps.The conversation also covers Legora’s new Portal product, which lets firms expose richer, AI-powered work product to clients and offer controlled self-serve tools built on their own IP. Alex argues this shift will make knowledge management even more critical as delivery becomes more productised. Finally, Alex discusses Legora’s rapid momentum with leading firms, the company’s US push and recent funding round, and how he views the competitive landscape. His focus: not beating rivals, but driving real adoption so AI becomes embedded in how lawyers actually work.Chapters00:01 Introduction01:00 Welcome and Alex’s Role at Legora01:13 Inside Legal Engineering: Ex-Lawyers as the Bridge to AI03:20 What Legora Actually Does for Lawyers05:41 SPA vs Term Sheet: A Practical Legora Use Case07:48 Who’s Using Legora Most (And How Usage Varies)09:10 Where Firms See the Biggest Time Savings11:12 The Limits of Legal AI Today: Context and Zero Data Retention13:13 Solving the Context Problem and Future Integrations14:25 Portal: Rethinking Law Firm-Client Collaboration19:01 Productising Know-How and the Future of Knowledge Management22:20 Legora’s Growth Story and Adoption Playbook25:45 Funding, US Expansion, Harvey - And the Legal AI Platform RaceAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

In this episode, we sit down with Camilla Wallace, senior partner of Wedlake Bell. A private client specialist who has spent 18 years at the firm, Camilla talks through Wedlake Bell’s evolution from a sub-20 partner outfit to a headcount of more than 350, why it has stayed a single-office City firm, and how it balances its 245-year heritage with a “1780 but contemporary” mindset.Camilla explains how she defines the senior partner role today - part chair, part ambassador, part counsellor - and why that structure works alongside managing partner Martin Arnold. She also discusses the firm’s measured stance on international expansion and external capital, and how culture underpins many of those decisions.A major theme of the conversation is mental health in the legal industry. Camilla shares the data she’s seeing through her work with LawCare, the pressures on junior lawyers, and the initiatives Wedlake Bell has launched, including anonymous learning reviews aimed at building psychological safety across teams.Finally, Camilla turns to the ‘millionaire exodus’ and what’s driving high-net-worth clients out of the UK. She outlines the broader economic impact, her concerns about policy uncertainty, and her own surprisingly simple idea for tax reform.Chapters00:01 Introduction01:10 Camilla’s Background01:46 WedLake Bell's Growth and Market Position04:41 Balancing Heritage and Innovation in Law08:06 The Role of Technology and AI in Law10:58 Growth Plans and Market Positioning12:55 The Senior Partner Role in Modern Law Firms15:46 Challenges in Leading a Modern Law Firm19:29 Mental Health in the Legal Industry24:27 The Changing Expectations of Junior Lawyers27:28 The Impact of Wealth Migration from the UK32:15 Taxation and Its Effects on the Legal SectorAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk