Notice That

In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we sit down with internationally respected clinician, trainer, and author Deb Wesselmann to explore the powerful intersection of EMDR therapy, attachment wounds, childhood trauma, parenting, and relational healing.
Deb shares her decades of experience integrating attachment theory with EMDR therapy, including practical ways therapists can work with children, parents, families, and adults carrying unresolved developmental trauma.
We discuss:
Why attachment trauma often lives beneath symptoms
How EMDR can help heal early relational wounds
Working with children using EMDR
Family therapy + EMDR integration
Resourcing trust, safety, and connection
Parents as part of the healing process
Parts work / ego states in EMDR
How therapists become corrective emotional experiences
Why the therapeutic relationship still matters deeply in trauma work
Deb also shares stories from training with Francine Shapiro in the early days of EMDR and how the field has evolved over time.
If you're an EMDR therapist, trauma therapist, counselor, psychologist, or simply fascinated by healing relationships, this conversation is packed with wisdom.
Learn more about Deb Wesselmann through her website: https://debrawesselmann.com/
Learn more about training and professional development opportunities with Beyond Healing through our website: connectbeyondhealing.com
DETAILED SHOW NOTES
Introduction
Bridger and Jen open the episode by discussing their upcoming EMDR Basic Trainings, hybrid learning model, consultation opportunities, and their emphasis on relationship-centered EMDR training.
Meet Deb Wesselmann
Deb shares her background as:
Former school teacher
Therapist for 35+ years
EMDR clinician since the mid-1990s
Co-founder of the Attachment and Trauma Center in Nebraska
Longtime specialist in attachment, trauma, adoption, children, and family healing
Her journey into therapy began through witnessing the unmet emotional needs of children in school settings.
Early EMDR with Francine Shapiro
Deb reflects on training directly with Francine Shapiro when EMDR was still considered “experimental.”
She discusses:
Why she was initially skeptical
Her powerful practicum experience
How EMDR differed from hypnosis
Why EMDR felt safer, gentler, and more effective for trauma treatment
Why Attachment and EMDR Fit So Well
Deb explains how EMDR naturally supports attachment healing because it helps process:
mistrust
abandonment wounds
relational fear
unresolved grief
abuse memories
developmental trauma
She emphasizes that attachment styles are shaped through experience—not fixed identity.
What Didn’t Happen Matters Too
One of the most powerful moments of the episode:
Healing is not only about processing what happened to clients...
It is also about grieving and repairing what never happened:
protection
soothing
attunement
nurture
safety
emotional co-regulation
Parts Work / Ego States in EMDR
Deb and the hosts discuss:
ego states
parts language
multiplicity of self
internalized child parts
wounded protector parts
They explore how parts work deepens EMDR treatment, especially with complex trauma.
Deb’s Integrative Family EMDR Model
Deb outlines her step-by-step model for working with children and families:
Phase 1:
Parent psychoeducation and case conceptualization
Helping parents understand:
“This is not a bad child.”
“This is a wounded child in survival mode.”
Phase 2:
Family preparation and regulation work
Including:
body regulation exercises
window of tolerance education
playful nervous system work
emotional literacy
Phase 3:
Attachment-focused EMDR resourcing
Examples:
parent-child connection exercises
messages of love
soothing touch
bilateral stimulation paired with relational safety
healing the “little one inside”
When Parents Are the Barrier
Deb speaks honestly about difficult cases where caregivers are emotionally unsafe, resistant, or abusive.
The hosts discuss how therapists may need to pivot toward:
supporting the child directly
grief work
coping strategies
becoming a safe relational template
The Therapist as Attachment Resource
A major theme of the conversation:
The therapeutic relationship itself becomes healing data.
Bridger discusses inviting clients to:
“Take my voice with you.”
Meaning:
internalize compassion
remember safety
borrow regulation
carry supportive relational memory into distress
This is a beautiful section for therapists working with complex trauma.
Why This Episode Matters
This conversation reminds us that EMDR is not merely protocol.
It is also:
relational
developmental
embodied
attachment-informed
deeply human
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In this return to our Back to Basics series, we’re diving into one of the most misunderstood—and often over-scripted—parts of EMDR therapy: interweaves.
If you were trained to think of interweaves as something you “pull out of a list” when a client gets stuck, you’re not alone. But what if interweaves aren’t about saying the right thing… and instead about understanding what the system needs next?
In this episode, we explore:
What interweaves are actually doing in the brain and nervous system
Why “cognitive interweaves” are only part of the story
How stuckness in EMDR often reflects deeper relational and developmental patterns
The difference between interrupting processing vs. supporting movement
How to move from rigid scripts to relational, somatic, and intuitive interweaves
Why some interweaves increase distress—and why that’s not a failure

We walk through core categories from Francine Shapiro's EMDR: Basic Principles, Protocols, and Procedures (responsibility, safety, and choice), while also expanding into a more integrative framework that includes:
Somatic interweaves
Affective interweaves
Relational and resource-based interweaves

You’ll also hear real clinical reflections on:
Why “I’m confused…” doesn’t always land
How metaphor, imagery, and even humor can unlock stuck processing
When to stay out of the way… and when your presence matters most

Ultimately, this conversation reframes interweaves not as a technique—but as a relational intervention grounded in attunement, timing, and case conceptualization.
If you’ve ever found yourself thinking:
“What do I say right now?”
This episode will help you shift toward:
“What does my client’s system need right now?”
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What happens when one of the most meaningful seasons of life—pregnancy and early parenthood—collides with trauma, grief, and attachment wounds?
In this episode of Notice That, we sit down with perinatal mental health specialist Bethany Warren to explore how EMDR therapy can be used safely and effectively with pregnant and postpartum clients—and why so many clinicians have been taught otherwise.
Together, we unpack:
The most common myths about EMDR in pregnancy (and what the research actually says)
Why “just resourcing” may unintentionally limit healing
How attachment wounds, identity shifts, and grief show up in the perinatal period
The difference between trauma and the deeper layers of loss
How EMDR helps untangle both present-day distress and long-standing relational patterns

We also explore the emotional reality of becoming a parent—the unexpected grief, the vulnerability of attachment, and the ways our own histories come alive in this stage of life.
This conversation is both clinically rich and deeply human—an invitation to rethink how we approach trauma, healing, and development in one of the most transformative seasons of life.
Whether you’re an EMDR clinician or simply someone navigating parenthood, this episode offers a powerful lens into what it means to heal while becoming.
Connect with Bethany Warren:
Website: https://bethanywarrenlcsw.com/
Perinatal EMDR Training (HAP): https://www.traumarecoveryhap.org/course/warren-perinatal-clients
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Becoming a parent is often described as one of life’s most joyful milestones. But what happens psychologically, relationally, and neurologically during the transition into parenthood is far more complex — and far less discussed — than many clinicians realize.
In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Bridger and Jen sit down with psychologist and EMDR consultant Dr. Nirit Gordon to explore the profound developmental, attachment-based, and trauma-related shifts that occur during the perinatal period. Drawing from feminist theory, attachment research, evolutionary anthropology, and clinical EMDR practice, this conversation reframes the transition to parenthood as a sensitive developmental stage comparable to adolescence — a time marked by identity reorganization, heightened emotional activation, relational stress, and the resurfacing of unresolved attachment wounds.
Together, we explore:
Why perinatal mental health is one of the most under-recognized areas in trauma treatment
How attachment memories and developmental trauma networks reactivate during pregnancy and early parenting
The concept of matrescence and its implications for case conceptualization Why fathers and partners undergo neurobiological and hormonal shifts during early parenting
How modern parenting culture conflicts with evolutionary caregiving needs
The myth of constant parental attunement and what attachment research actually shows
Birth trauma and systemic gaps in trauma-informed obstetric care Using babies as resources in EMDR therapy
The clinical importance of including perinatal experiences in Phase 1 history taking How therapists can support identity transformation during early parenthood

This episode invites clinicians to expand their understanding of trauma, development, and relational memory — and to consider the perinatal period not simply as a life event, but as a critical neurobiological and psychological window for therapeutic intervention. Whether you work directly with parents or not, this conversation offers a powerful lens for understanding how attachment, trauma, and identity evolve across the lifespan.
To follow Nirit's work, check out her website at niritgordonphd.com and her training offerings at touchstoneinstitute.org

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What happens when therapy stops being about techniques — and starts becoming about you?
In this deeply reflective episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen are joined by therapist and trainer Jessica Downs for an intimate conversation exploring the inner life of therapists, professional identity, and the personal work that inevitably emerges beneath clinical practice.
Together, they explore the hidden motivations that draw people into helping professions, the illusion of the “next training” as a solution to therapeutic stuckness, and the moment many therapists encounter when professional development turns into personal reckoning.
This episode moves beyond theory into experience, as Jessica guides a live experiential exercise inviting listeners to connect with younger parts of themselves — demonstrating how EMDR principles, ego state work, and imagination can foster integration and self-compassion.
Themes explored include:
Why therapists often chase new modalities or trainings
The relationship between burnout and unresolved inner dynamics
Countertransference and the therapist’s personal history
Ego states and parts work through an EMDR lens
The role of suffering in human experience
Individuation, identity, and professional evolution
Healing as wholeness rather than symptom elimination
This conversation is slower, more inward, and intentionally reflective — an invitation to pause, notice, and reconnect with the parts of yourself that brought you into this work in the first place.
In This Episode, We Discuss
The unconscious reasons therapists become therapists
When “helping people” isn’t the whole story
Capitalism, continuing education culture, and therapist insecurity
Internal imagery and symbolic work in healing
Parenting, therapy, and mirrors of the self
Jessica’s “spotlighting” ego state exercise (follow along included)
The La Loba myth and reclaiming lost parts of self

About Our Guest — Jessica Downs
Jessica Downs is a trauma therapist, EMDR clinician, and co-founder of Iris Training Collective. Her work integrates EMDR, ego state approaches, symbolism, and depth psychology to help therapists reconnect with authenticity and wholeness in both personal and professional development.
Resources & Links
Iris Training Collective
Live Well Counseling Center (Grand Junction, CO)
Notice That Podcast
Beyond Healing trainings and consultation opportunities

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