Really Good Conversations

Summary
Amy speaks with Dara Simkin about why adults forget how to play and what we lose when life becomes too focused on productivity, achievement and keeping up.
Dara explores play as a mindset, not just an activity, and shares why it can help us reconnect with curiosity, creativity, joy and each other.
 
Guest
Dara Simkin is the founder of Culture Hero and co-author of Full Stack Human.
Her work explores play, creativity and human connection, helping people and teams build the human skills that technology cannot replace.
 
Overview
From achievement syndrome and success amnesia to the pressure to always be doing, this conversation looks at why play is not childish, but deeply human.
Dara explains how small, low-stakes moments of play can help us feel more present, connected and alive in a world that often asks us to optimise everything.
Key Outtakes: 
*]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-6a015108-756c-83ec-bb9b-91fabc1ac4c0-5" data-turn-id-container= "request-6a015108-756c-83ec-bb9b-91fabc1ac4c0-5" data-testid= "conversation-turn-60" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-turn= "assistant"> Why play is a mindset, not just something children do
How achievement can stop us enjoying the life we've built
Why adults need permission to be less serious
How play helps us reconnect with joy, curiosity and other people
Simple ways to bring play back without adding more to the to-do list




 







For more information:
Dara Simkin - https://www.culturehero.co/
The book Full Stack Human - https://www.culturehero.co/full-stack-human-book
 
Transcript
Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast.
Today I'm joined by Dara Simkin, founder of Culture Hero and co-author of Full Stack Human: The Mindset Upgrade You Need to Stay Human in a World Ruled by Technology.
Dara's work explores the role of play, creativity and human connection in the way we live, work and lead. In this conversation, we'll explore why adults forget how to play, what we lose when everything becomes about productivity, and how play can help us connect, create and stay human in a fast-changing world.
Welcome to the podcast, Dara.
Dara: Hello, Amy.
Amy: Thank you so much for joining me today. You're regarded as one of Australia's leading voices in play at work. So before we get into why adults need to get back to playing, can you explain for our listeners what you actually mean by play?
Dara: I think when we often hear the word play, we think of something quite specific.
Let's have a little go, shall we? When you think of the word play, what immediately comes to mind?
Amy: Having fun.
Dara: Exactly. And I think that's a very universal idea of play, which it is. Play is absolutely about having fun.
But when we ask adults what they associate with play, they often say dogs, babies, kids, sports, board games and so on.
When we talk about play through the lens of serious play, intentional play or purposeful play, it's really about play as a mindset or a mode, rather than an activity.
It's about how we allow ourselves to get into a place where we feel more open, more relaxed and more capable of accessing dynamic thinking. We're able to be more generative in the way we think. We suspend judgement as best we can. We're open to failing, experimenting and giving things a go.
So when I think about play, it's really this capacity to arrive in our lives in a very different way to how we normally arrive: overwhelmed, rushed, up to our eyeballs in things to do, in fight or flight, going, going, getting things done.
I always liken it to those "aha" moments we have in the shower. We solve world hunger in the shower because it's probably the first time in our day where we're relaxed, in our body, by ourselves, and our mind is able to open because of those conditions.
Amy: Yes, I can totally relate to that.
It makes me think of previous roles I've had in other companies, where you're sitting at a desk all day and then you go into a meeting room and it's suddenly: "Right, we need to have a creative brainstorm. Everyone has to be creative now."
You've got a one-hour meeting in the diary where you have to crack creativity, and it can feel like the most forced environment. It's not what you've just described at all.
When you're in the shower, you remember things. You have ideas. You suddenly remember what you forgot to do.
When I was preparing for this podcast, I was reminded of that old phrase: "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." I looked it up and it was first recorded in print in 1659 in James Howell's Proverbs.
It's a saying we all know. We know it from films and popular culture, but I wonder whether we're really leaning into the meaning of it.
Do you think adults have forgotten how important play is?
Dara: One hundred per cent.
I think we've actually created a culture that is suspicious of play.
When we think back to the Puritan work ethic, which dates back 500 or 600 years, there's this idea that work is salvation, play is demonised, and productivity is a form of godliness.
I think most institutions have been created around that perception.
When you think about the Industrial Revolution and the point where we started replacing human labour with machines, we became cogs in a system. I don't think we've really been able to rectify that until now.
I think conversations are being had where we look around and realise so many people are depressed, anxious, overwhelmed, stressed, burnt out or on multiple medications. We are incredibly unwell.
I think we're realising more and more that the lifestyle that has been put upon us, around efficiency, getting a mortgage, having a nice car and this idea of success that's been sold to us, sucks.
Amy: Definitely. The amount of times I've said to Alex, my husband, "I'm not sure about all this adulting."
There's just such a long list of life admin to function as what we perceive to be an adult.
We've both got young children, and seeing them play, and seeing their curiosity, is amazing. It's definitely brought that back to me.
At what point do you think adults start to lose that natural instinct to play?
Dara: I think it starts in adolescence, to be honest.
When we start to gain more of a sense of individuality, identity and ego, we begin to compare ourselves to other people.
My son is only five, and he's already talking about how other kids' clothes are cooler than his. I'm thinking, "Where is he getting that from?" Because it certainly isn't me.
I'm astonished by this need to fit in and conform, but at the same time, it makes complete sense from an evolutionary perspective. We had to be part of a tribe. We had to belong and be included, otherwise we wouldn't survive.
A lot of Full Stack Human is about understanding our evolutionary wiring, the things we are biologically designed to do in order to survive, and how the culture we live in can distort and over-sensitise those things, especially when it comes to belonging.
We now understand so much about the brain, dopamine, reward and motivation. Brilliant people work in advertising and marketing, and when the message is "look like this, smell like this, wear this, buy this, do this, be this", that pressure starts from a very young age.
So not only are we trying to conform and belong when we're young, we're also put into classrooms where we're expected to sit down, be quiet and learn numeracy and literacy.
I've just been on a school tour for my son. He's five, so I was looking at what his primary school experience might be like. I asked the principal, "How much time do they have for imaginative play? How much time do they spend outside?"
He could tell me about morning tea, recess and lunch, but when it came to imaginative play in the classroom, he didn't really have an answer.
Amy: I absolutely feel you because we're in the exact same space right now.
I had the same thoughts when I went on school tours earlier this year. It all felt quite restrictive inside the classroom. I looked at some of the classrooms and thought, "This feels the same as when we were at school."
If we think about how we've evolved as adults, have we attached everything to having an outcome? Are we obsessed with everything needing some form of achievement?
You talk about achievement syndrome. What do you mean by that, and how does it affect our ability to play?
Dara: I came across this concept through a newsletter by a great researcher and writer called Michael Simmons, who is based in the States.
Achievement syndrome is also this idea of achievement addiction, and it's really the thing that happens before burnout.
As a society, especially in Western culture, we have a big obsession with burnout at the moment, and that's an important conversation to have. But based on the work and research I've done around achievement syndrome, the burnout conversation can be too late, because by then we're already at the end point.
Michael talks about going back to childhood, where we get gold stars for doing the right thing. We start to realise that when we are good, smart or achieve something, we get accolades, recognition and validation.
For many of us, especially those who had baby boomer parents, we didn't always get that validation at home. My parents had a hard time telling me they were proud of me, so we start to seek that out in other places, from teachers, sports coaches and so on.
We start to learn that our value is connected to an output or an achievement. That gets reinforced when we go to work, where we get raises and promotions. If you're in sales, maybe you get the trip to Hawaii or whatever it is.
So we double down on output. The more we do, the more we're recognised and revered. Then we start to optimise everything in order to do as much output as possible.
Eventually we reach a point of diminishing returns. The thing we were once passionate about, the thing we studied for, worked towards and felt excited about in our twenties, doesn't give us the same feeling anymore.
We get the raise. We get the promotion. But we're too exhausted to enjoy it or even recognise it.
I think a comorbidity of achievement syndrome is success amnesia, where we forget about our successes because we're already onto the next thing.
I speak from experience. As an entrepreneur, I have very much been on that hamster wheel of constantly doing, because it's endless. There's always more.
Amy: There's no finish line, really.
Dara: Exactly.
When it doesn't feel as good as it once did, we've already created this baseline of chaos in the way we operate and live our lives. We have a mortgage we may be in over our heads with, or children in schools that cost $20,000 a year, or whatever it might be. Then we're on a one-way ticket to burnout.
In the book, we talk about how if we want to stop sacrificing our humanity for success, we need to understand our relationship with success.
How do we define it for ourselves? What does it look like? Is it money? A big house? Fancy holidays? Or is it something else?
Amy: Let's talk a little bit about the book. It's called Full Stack Human. What does that phrase mean for our listeners?
Dara: To keep it simple, it comes from computer programming.
When you're a full stack developer, you can design a programme or an app from end to end. You understand the zeros and ones, the bits and bytes, the backend, and you can also design the shiny interface, the UX people interact with.
From a people perspective, it's about knowing your own programming. Understanding your relationship to success, how you navigate change, what your biases and assumptions are, and the things unconsciously driving the way you behave and act every day.
That's the backend concept of the first few chapters.
Then the shiny user interface is about mental health, how we show up at work and how we lead.
In the middle is what we call the five-layer stack, or the upgrade. That includes serious play, radical curiosity, embodied adaptability, intelligent optimism and strategic hope.
There's a word in front of each concept: serious, radical, embodied, intelligent, strategic, because we're interested in the idea of being active. How do you become an active participant in your own life?
I think we've created a society where we are so comfortable that we have a hard time being uncomfortable. We've created so many ways to maximise comfort, and I think that's doing us a massive disservice.
When we talk about embodied adaptability, for example, it's about understanding how your nervous system responds to challenge. How do you adapt in a way that allows your nervous system to stay regulated and grounded even when things are hard?
Strategic hope is about believing you can do it and that there is a way forward. There's agency in that. It's not just, "I hope this is going to be okay."
The same applies to optimism. Optimism can be blind positivity or "good vibes". Intelligent optimism is about seeking fact-based evidence that a better future can be built, rather than just doomscrolling and listening to sensationalised media.
Amy: And then filling your head with all the doom and gloom and coming offline in a panic.
You talk about the human operating system. What do you think we need to protect or strengthen in ourselves right now?
Dara: I think it starts with the responsibility to understand ourselves.
A concept that emerged for me while writing the book was this idea of intelligent self-compassion. We're able to have compassion for ourselves and our situation because we are educated and aware of how we operate.
I often say comprehension creates compassion.
When we understand that we have nearly 200 documented biases that help us navigate the world, it gives us context. When there's too much information, not enough meaning, or when we need to act quickly, we make assumptions about ourselves and the world. Those assumptions are also inherited from when we were young, from our parents, caregivers, religion, background or whatever else shaped us.
We also have an immunity to change. We are wired to evolve and not die at the same time. A lot of people don't realise that.
We have this need to learn, grow and become a better version of ourselves, but we're also wired not to take risks because we want to survive. There is a psychological tension inside us that most people are unaware of.
So when we try to change and have the best intentions, we sometimes can't do it and we don't know why. A lot of it has to do with our assumptions, and also our relationship to success.
In the book, we talk about creating a clear-eyed view of what's breaking us. A lot of it has to do with our resistance to change, our biases, our assumptions and the way we navigate success and achievement.
From an operating system upgrade perspective, we need to understand that as a baseline.
A lot of people who have read the book have said it freed them from thinking, "It's me. Why aren't I coping? Why can't I keep up? Why is this so hard? Why am I so overwhelmed?"
We berate ourselves as if it's a deficit of our own, when actually it's often society's pressure around technology, keeping up and all the expectations placed on us.
So I think it starts with getting a baseline understanding of how our brain works.
Amy: When people have that understanding, so much of it can feel like environmental factors. Whether it's your workplace or somewhere else, people might be listening and thinking, "That's great, but I can't really change how things operate at work. I don't make those decisions."
So for people listening who think, "Great, I can read the book and understand this, but what action can I actually take in my everyday life that doesn't feel like another thing on the to-do list?"
Dara: For me, it's about being an active participant.
It's easy to say, "I can't do this. I don't have control." And yes, if you work in a toxic culture and you don't have the luxury of finding a new job, I totally understand that.
But there are other environmental factors that affect your bandwidth and capacity that you do have control over.
Look at the people you spend time with. Are you hanging out with people who fill your cup, who make you feel good, who energise you?
Are you connecting with people physically, or are you just texting, calling, Facebooking or messaging?
We need physical connection as human beings. That fills our cup, and we are often disconnected from that because we don't prioritise it.
A great psychiatrist I follow, Ned Hallowell, calls it vitamin C: vitamin connect. We sometimes forget how important relationships are. Not just with our partner, child, mum, dad, brother or sister, but with friends and even colleagues.
If work is hard, having a person you can go for coffee with, have a chat with and vent to can lighten the load.
I also think we need to prioritise ourselves and prioritise play.
The way we approach play is often backwards. Play becomes a reward. It's the thing we get after everything else is done.
But everything is never done. It's endless.
So if we treat play as a reward, or book one holiday and then get sick because our nervous system finally has a chance to come out of stress mode, we're missing the point.
We need to prioritise small moments where we walk outside and notice where we are and what we're doing. We don't have headphones in. We don't have our face in our phone. Moments of wonder, awe and novelty.
We need to look at play as an on-ramp to living more sustainably, being more connected and being more joyful.
A lot of that comes down to thinking about what makes you feel good, and doing more of that. It's not rocket science.
Sometimes, with self-improvement and the wellness industry, there's so much stuff we get overloaded with. Don't overcook it.
What brings you joy?
And I don't mean alcohol or Netflix. I mean things where you are participating, using your hands, using your brain, creating new neural pathways and getting involved.
It could be going for a walk, seeing a friend, playing basketball or being present with your child while doing Lego. There are micro moments.
When people think, "How do I change? What do I need to do? I'm going to join the 5am club and go to the gym every day," it can become another source of pressure.
How can you do things that are low stakes, easy, accessible, doable and repeatable? Things that give you positive feedback, where you think, "That felt good. I want to do that again."
You don't need to enrol yourself in a 12-week clowning course unless you want to. That would be my thing, but not everyone's.
Go back to basics. What did you like doing as a kid? If you loved tinkering, go and do a woodworking workshop.
Amy: I love it.
So much of what you've said connects with other conversations I'm having, and with a lot of the wider narrative we're seeing online. It feels like we're in an era of waking up to how comfortable we've made life for ourselves, and all the technology we've brought into our lives.
Now we seem to be in a phase of having to teach ourselves how to be human again and take ourselves back to the basics.
All of the quick fixes or recommendations we see online, go do this, go do that, can end up giving us more layers.
Dara: Can I just say: fuck the hack.
For me, this idea of hacking anything is like, "Give me the quick shortcut. What do I have to do?"
Just pause. Take a breath.
Play is in all of us. We are biologically wired to play. It is part of our emotional system. It is as baked into our brain as fear, lust and seeking.
Play is a part of us. It's not something you have to learn. It's something you have to dig up. Something you have to remember, recall and reconnect to.
I'm not here for a play hack.
It's about saying, "I was playful at some point in my life. I have felt joy before. What was I doing? Where was I?"
Amy: If people listening are thinking, "I can't even remember how to play or what I used to find joy in," what could they start doing?
Dara: I don't believe you.
If you're listening and thinking that, I don't believe you. You just have to pause and give yourself a moment to remember.
This idea of "I don't remember how to play" or "I don't remember how to feel joy", you do. You just have to give yourself enough time and space to unravel a little and access that part of yourself.
Sometimes the best thing we can do in order to play is pause.
Sit on your couch for five minutes with a cup of tea and no distraction. Take a few breaths.
A lot of people turn their nose up at mindfulness and meditation, so let's call it the practice of nothingness.
Can you do that? Can you do absolutely nothing for a minute?
Amy: It's a struggle. I know when I try it, I immediately start thinking of all the things I need to get done. It takes time.
This has been fascinating. Obviously, we are all about conversations in our world, and I know you are too in a lot of the work you do.
I always ask: has there ever been a conversation that has profoundly shaped you or changed the direction of your life?
Dara: I feel like every therapy session I go to is a life-changing conversation.
But I think a conversation that really shaped me was with our friends Graham Panther and Honor Eastly, who are amazing mental health advocates. We interviewed them for the book.
They run an amazing community called the Big Feels Club, which is very much about community-based mental health support and normalising conversations around mental health.
When I was speaking with Honor, she talked about bandwidth, and the idea that we don't have a resilience problem, because resilience is really indicative of our bandwidth.
If we're having a really difficult time in life, we've lost a parent, we've been sick, work is hard, whatever it might be, our bandwidth is low.
So our ability to bounce back, which is often how people define resilience, becomes inaccessible. That's okay. It doesn't make us a non-resilient person. It means we need to fill our cup again. That might be through recovery, rest or something else.
For me, I have ADHD. I operate at a very different frequency to many people, and I can crash and burn. I don't really identify with burnout. I know that when my body starts telling me I'm not okay, I need to take the time to respond.
Having that language around bandwidth, and understanding that bandwidth is not infinite, changed things for me.
Each of us has a cup of a particular size depending on who we are and how we operate. We need to realise how our bandwidth expands and shrinks.
Once I started thinking about that in my own life, I thought, "Where am I putting my energy, and am I getting it back?"
A lot of the time, we put energy into things and don't get it back.
To have a real conversation, I'm 40 years old. I've been separated for three years. I have a five-year-old. My dating pool is small. I also have ADHD, which means rejection sensitivity, hyper-focus and dopamine seeking.
Dating for me takes a lot of bandwidth. Getting on apps and doing the whole thing was depleting me. I was suffering. I wasn't being present with my child. I had "boy brain", and it was taking away from the things that needed my focus, like my child and my business.
So I stopped. I went on a six-month hiatus to recalibrate.
That conversation around bandwidth changed the way I think about what I'm actually able to do.
Amy: It's such a good reminder. I know I'm guilty of cramming more and more things in and almost thinking they all have the same level of priority, when often they don't.
Thank you for sharing that. I think so many people can relate.
Now I'm going to ask you three questions on the spot from our pack of cards.
Question number one: if you came with a warning label, what would it say?
Dara: Can be incredibly hyperactive.
I'm late-diagnosis ADHD. I've had my diagnosis for a year, but I can connect to being this way my entire life.
I can be very high octane. As a younger person, I definitely put my foot in my mouth a lot. As an adult, I've learnt not to be as impulsive in that way.
While ADHD is a great way for me to think differently, be creative and do the amazing things I've done, it can also be really difficult.
So my warning label would be: can be hyperactive.
Amy: Question number two, which feels appropriate because we've been talking about play and childhood: what was there to do when you were a teenager?
Dara: Go to the mall.
There was a place I loved getting pretzels from called Auntie Anne's. We'd go to the movies and then hang outside after the movie.
Because I grew up in Miami, there were also these all-age clubs you could go to. They don't exist anymore, but I have a very distinct memory of being 15 with my best friend, Melissa.
My mum would never let me go, but my best friend's mum was super cool, so I would spend the weekend there. Her mum drove us to this club called Mad Max. We dressed up, went dancing and hung out, and her mum slept in the car park waiting for us to come back.
So I was clubbing and hitting the dance floor at a very young age, having grown up in Miami.
Amy: Brilliant. I love that.
 
Amy: Question number three: what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?
Dara: I could try to say something really profound, but for me it's: never forget to play.
We play when we're young and we play when we age. What happens in that 40-year period in between?
Even children are playing less now because of technology and devices. I know in Scandinavia, GPs are prescribing play for children, which I think is devastating and really highlights what's happening in our world today.
But yes, don't forget to play. Do things that bring you joy.
Amy: And the last question I ask all of our guests is: if you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?
Dara: I took a bit of time to think about this, and I'm going to keep it on theme with play.
There's a quote attributed to Plato: "You can learn more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation."
I'd love to have a cup of tea with Plato and say, "Where did that come from? What did you see? What were the Greeks doing that made you think that?"
I'd love to chat with Plato and ask, first of all, "Did you actually say that?" Because who knows when we're quoting Greek philosophers.
But I think it's brilliant and so true, and I'd love to unpack that with him.
Amy: Fantastic.
Dara, thank you for everything you've shared today. This has been a really thought-provoking episode, and I hope people listening take some of these ideas into their own lives and worlds.
As we wrap up, where can people find out more about you, Culture Hero and the book?
Dara: The book is available through most online retailers, so wherever you are in the world, you can get it on Amazon. You can also visit fullstackhumanbook.com for more information.
If you're in the professional world, you can find me on LinkedIn, where I share different insights.
My business is Culture Hero, and the website is culturehero.co.
If you're looking to engage your people in interesting and dynamic ways in the learning space, around developing human skills, that's my thing.
I like to say I design experiences that boost human capability around what algorithms can't replace.
So yes, hit me up.
Amy: Fantastic. I'll include all of those links as well. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Dara: Thanks, Amy. It was a really good conversation.
Amy: Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation.
Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guest. And if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.

Summary
"We touch our phones more than our loved ones." It's a jarring statement from scientist and broadcaster Dr. Niraj Lal, but the data backs it up. 
In this episode, we go "Behind the Screens" to understand why our biology is no match for the modern algorithm. From the "junk food" of digital connection to the looming challenges of AI and deepfakes, we explore how to build guardrails that protect our attention, our children, and our human relationships.
 
Guest
Dr. Niraj Lal is a scientist, ABC presenter, and host of the Imagine This podcast, which has reached over 16 million listeners. 
With a background in solar cell physics and science communication, Niraj is dedicated to sparking critical thinking in the next generation. 
His new book, Behind the Screens, serves as a guide for young people (and adults) to navigate the ones and zeros of our digital world.
 
 
Overview
Why do we find it so hard to put our phones down, even when we know the content we're consuming isn't good for us?
Dr. Niraj Lal joins Amy to pull back the curtain on the economic and biological structures that keep us hooked.
We dive into the "Awareness Trap"; the idea that simply knowing how an algorithm works isn't enough to change our behavior because these platforms are designed to hijack our most basic social needs for validation and connection. Niraj explains the "frictionless" design of the internet and why we need to move beyond simple screen-time limits toward true digital agency.
As global conversations ramp up around social media bans for children, Niraj offers a timely perspective on how to prepare the next generation.
We discuss the rise of AI, the death of "seeing is believing," and why, in an increasingly automated world, the most valuable thing we can hold onto is the direct evidence of our human relationships.
Key Outtakes 
The 2,000-Touch Reality: Why we touch our phones more than our loved ones and how to reset that balance
The Awareness Trap: Why simply "knowing" how algorithms work isn't enough to stop the scroll
Digital Junk Food: How to identify "low-nutrition" content that hijacks your social needs
Beyond the Ban: Practical "guardrails" for kids that go deeper than just setting screen-time limits
How to navigate a world of AI, deepfakes, and computer-generated truth
The Ultimate Happiness Hack: Why scientific data proves human connection is still our greatest currency


For more information:
Dr. Niraj Lal website https://nirajlal.org/
The book 'Behind the Screens' https://www.uqp.com.au/books/behind-the-screens
 
 
Transcript: "We Touch Our Phones More Than Our Loved Ones"
Amy: 
Today I'm joined by Dr. Niraj Lal, scientist, ABC presenter, and host of the Imagine This podcast, which has gained over 16 million listens. His new book, Behind the Screens, helps young people understand how the digital world really works. It covers everything from algorithms and AI to social media, gaming, and online behavior.
This conversation isn't just about kids and screens. It's about how all of us are learning to live, think, and connect in a world shaped by technology. Welcome to the podcast, Niraj.
Dr. Niraj Lal: You can call me Nidge, Amy, if you'd like! But yeah, great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Amy: Fantastic. Now, I have your recent book here, Behind the Screens. It feels like such a topical book right now. There is a lot of talk around the world about social media bans and kids' use of technology, and also our own use as adults. I'm really keen to dive into this topic with you. But firstly, you come from a scientific background. What drew you to understanding how things work, from your science work right through to the digital world we're living in?
Dr. Niraj Lal: Well, I think I was always just asking questions. I probably was an annoying kid, but I just try to figure out how the world works and the things that matter to all of us. I studied science and art at university: physics, maths, politics, and philosophy. Then I concentrated on physics to figure out how to make the world work for all of us.
My background is in solar cell physics, trying to make solar panels more efficient. I still work in that field, but I increasingly do science communication for young ones. The aim is not just to teach facts, but to spark the skills of creative and critical thinking. It is about learning how to distinguish true information from everything else. This book stems from that: helping a young generation navigate the internet and learn what's going on "behind the screens" so they can make it work in their best interests.
Amy: So many of us are walking around and we don't even question how things work or the technology we're using. When was the moment you thought, "Actually, I need to dig deeper on this"?
Dr. Niraj Lal: It went by degrees. You just look at adults today: catching public transport or anywhere you are, we're all really plugged into our devices. The average adult in the Western world checks their phone more than 85 times a day. That's every 10 minutes during waking hours. We touch our devices more than 2,000 times a day. We touch them more than anything else: more than our loved ones, and more than we touch ourselves.
We're all a little bit hooked. Seeing the impact this has on our society and our civic conversations, how we speak to each other and see the best side of someone else's viewpoint, it's becoming harder. We're getting more polarized. There was a wonderful documentary, The Social Dilemma, that talked to tech executives who knew exactly what drives engagement. It's not always true information, and it's not always in our best interests. I wondered if we could teach that to kids before they get a phone, to give them a bit of armor before they go online.
Amy: We put a lot of focus on kids, but as you highlighted, as adults, we're all doing it. What do you think most people misunderstand about how the internet actually works?
Dr. Niraj Lal: It's designed to be incredibly seamless. It's like, "How does a fish recognise water?" It's just around us.
That frictionless design is intentional. I think it's helpful to be aware of what happens when your device sends something online: what metadata is, how it's used to create a profile of you, and how that's used to figure out which ads to show you. Nothing is "evil" there; it's just how it works. If we're aware of it, it helps. I think the same thing will happen for AI.
Amy: You've touched on metadata and algorithms. Why is it that as humans, we might understand this intellectually, but our behavior doesn't actually shift?
Dr. Niraj Lal: Because we're human. Our brains evolved as social creatures on the savanna with an almost infinite capacity for being liked and connected. App developers have found a way to hijack that for profit. It's a bit like junk food; we know it's bad for us, but we still eat it. The difference is there's a physical limit to how much junk food you can eat before you feel sick, but I don't know if there's the same limit to feeling validated or connected.
Amy: In your view, are we dealing with a technology problem or a human behavior problem?
Dr. Niraj Lal: I don't know if it's a problem so much as an outcome of who we are as biological organisms and how our society is structured around profit-making. We're usually catching up with technology, and we're trying to catch up now with legislative changes. The first step is awareness.
Amy: Is it too late? Are we so far into it that we can't go back?
Dr. Niraj Lal: I don't think we're too late. It is tricky for the generations that have already slipped through. I don't know if we did right by the young people who were online before these social media bans. But every other technological revolution has found ways to have appropriate guardrails, and we can do the same here. It's up to us to say, "Hey, we want this to work in our best interest."
Amy: I'm conscious of my phone use around my son. What are kids really learning from watching adults use technology?
Dr. Niraj Lal: It's absolutely critical. "Monkey see, monkey do." It's hard to be those role models when we feel so time-pressured with work and life admin. Kids are observing how we do it well and how we don't. But the kids I spoke with for the book are actually quite savvy. They can see what's going on and they want to make it work for them.
Amy: What is the one conversation parents should have before giving a child a phone?
Dr. Niraj Lal: My tip is that it doesn't have to go from zero to 100%. It can be a gradual process. "Here's a device with messages and a phone; we'll talk about adding more apps over time." Keep the conversation as open as possible. Let them know: "If you see something that makes you feel weird or yuck, that's totally okay and you can talk to me." Make sure they have a safety network. If they're gaming, join them. If they're scrolling, do it together sometimes. Keeping that connection open is the most important part.
Amy: We are now in this world of AI, and you talk about the difficulty of knowing what's "real." Are we moving toward a world where truth is about trust rather than facts?
Dr. Niraj Lal: We're certainly in an age where any image or video has a real possibility of being computer-generated. Trust, independent verification, and being aware of your media sources will become vital. I think face-to-face, in-person experiences will become even more important: the things we can learn through direct evidence.
Amy: What concerns you most about this shift?
Dr. Niraj Lal: The conversation is accelerating so quickly. It's helpful to look under the hood of what a Large Language Model actually is, because that gives us agency. We shouldn't assume that just because an AI can converse in a personable manner, it carries the same empathy, value judgments, and ethical frameworks that we take for granted as humans.
Amy: I've got some quick "Mythbuster" questions for you. Answer "Myth," "Truth," or "Somewhere in between." Number one: Kids understand technology better than adults.
Dr. Niraj Lal: Somewhere in between. Kids are better at fixing the aerial or the video player, but they don't always have the healthy skepticism or that gut sense that something smells fishy.
Amy: Number two: If you understand algorithms, you're less influenced.
Dr. Niraj Lal: True. If you're aware of what's being put in front of you to keep you engaged, it helps you seek out opposing views.
Amy: Number three: Screen time is the main problem.
Dr. Niraj Lal: False. Screen time is a symptom. The problem is that we've created economic structures where we don't value social spaces or natural environments enough. We've outsourced parenting to digital devices because they are free and engaging. But when something is free, you or your kids are the product.
Amy: Number four: AI will make it impossible to know what's real.
Dr. Niraj Lal: False. I believe in our ability to figure out frameworks to verify information. It will be harder, but humans will always have the capability to understand what's real through direct evidence and the scientific process.
Amy: What's something you're still figuring out yourself?
Dr. Niraj Lal: All of it! All the theory in the world doesn't help when you find yourself doom-scrolling. I'm figuring out effective ways to stay healthy with it, just like everyone else.
Amy: Has there ever been a conversation that profoundly shaped you?
Dr. Niraj Lal: So many. My grandparents, primarily. I remember asking my grandma for advice and she just said, "Just be happy." At the time, I expected something more complex, but over time I realized that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
Amy: I love that. Simplicity is often the answer. Now, three quick questions from our Really Good Conversations pack.
Number one: If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?
Dr. Niraj Lal: Flying! Easy one. And without carbon emissions, that'd be pretty cool, wouldn't it?
Amy: Question two: What was your biggest highlight from last year?
Dr. Niraj Lal: Going fishing with my kids and seeing them catch a bunch of fish. I'm getting into spear-fishing too, finding "flow" in the ocean.
Amy: And question three: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on?
Dr. Niraj Lal: The insight from the long-running Harvard study on happiness: human relationships, more than money or fame, are what lead to happier, healthier, longer lives. Value those close personal connections above all the noise.
Amy: If you could ask anyone, dead or alive, a question, who would it be?
Dr. Niraj Lal: My dad, who passed away in 2021. I'd love to have more conversations with him. Professionally, Carl Sagan. I'd love to hear his thoughts on how we can communicate the wonders of the natural world to young people today to help us with the challenges we face as a society.
Amy: Fantastic answers. Thank you so much for sharing. I feel like we've only scratched the surface! I hope our listeners leave with some reflection on their own habits. Where can they find out more about you and your book?
Dr. Niraj Lal: Thanks for having me, Amy. This was a beautiful thing. People can find me at nirajlal.org, and Behind the Screens is available wherever you get your books.
Amy: Thank you, Nidge. And thank you for the work you're doing to help us navigate this world.
Thanks for listening,join us next time for another Really Good Conversation.

Summary
Scams are no longer just about dodgy messages or obvious red flags. In this episode, Amy talks to scam investigator Kylee Dennis about the human side of online deception; how trust gets built, why loneliness can make people more vulnerable, and how AI is changing what feels believable online.
From romance scams to voice cloning, this is a timely conversation about manipulation, digital safety and the conversations families need to be having now.
 
 
Overview
Kylee Dennis is the founder of Two Face Investigations and Scam Prevention Australia. With 14 years in law enforcement behind her, she was drawn into this work after her own mum became the victim of a romance scam.
In this conversation, Kylee shares what that experience revealed, how scammers use persuasive language to build trust, why intelligent people still get caught out, and what all of us should be more aware of in a world shaped by loneliness, technology and AI.
 
 
Guest
Kylee Dennis is a scam investigator and digital safety specialist, and the founder of Two Face Investigations and Scam Prevention Australia.
Her work focuses on exposing online deception, supporting victims, and helping people better understand how scams really work; from romance scams and sextortion through to emerging AI threats.
 
 
Key Outtakes
Scams are often less about technology and more about trust, timing and emotional vulnerability

Persuasive language is one of the biggest tools scammers use to create connection quickly

Loneliness and isolation can make people far more vulnerable than many realise

AI is making scams more convincing, with voice cloning and deepfake video adding new risks

One of Kylee's clearest messages

 
For more inofrmation: 
Two Face Investigations www.twofaceinvestigations.au

Summary
Maku Fenaroli went from a career in finance to building Maku The Label — an art-led fashion brand from Melbourne that scaled fast and forced her to back herself sooner than expected. 
In this episode, we talk about the real tipping points, the behind-the-scenes challenges of rapid growth, and what it takes to turn creativity into a sustainable business.
Guest
Maku Fenaroli is the founder and creative force behind Maku The Label, an art-led fashion brand known for bold, wearable designs. With a background in teaching and finance, Maku now combines hand-made creativity with modern e-commerce to build a fast-growing label with a loyal community.
 
Overview
Maku Fenaroli, founder of Maku The Label, shares the leap from "safe job" to building a brand in public. Maku originally trained as a teacher, then fell into the world of superannuation when she moved to Melbourne; a role that felt comfortable, if not aligned. Creativity was always there in the background, but like many people, she didn't believe it could become her full-time life.
Everything shifted when she finished breastfeeding her second child and found herself living in T-shirts - but unable to justify the designer price tags or support fast fashion. So she did what most people only think about: she made her own. Starting with a low-risk print-on-demand model, Maku tested designs in real time and quickly discovered what customers were truly craving.
We unpack the point where the business became "real": the six-figure Boxing Day sale, the strain of juggling a full-time job alongside late-night production work, and the moment she knew she had enough data to step away from corporate life. Maku also shares the cost of rapid growth, from customer service pressure to product development setbacks, and why building something meaningful requires both resilience and humility.
 
Visit Maku The Label https://makuthelabel.com/
Transcript
Today, I'm joined by Maku Fenaroli, founder of Maku the Label, a bold art-led brand that's built serious traction in a short space of time. Maku started the business while working in finance, created a few t-shirts when she felt she had nothing to lose, and within four months, the momentum was strong enough for her to quit her job. Recently named in the top 50 people in e-commerce, she is building, navigating growth, marketing, self-doubt and the realities of backing yourself. Welcome to the podcast!
 
Maku (01:06)
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Lovely intro.
 
Amy (01:09)
It's a fascinating journey that you've been on and different worlds from your finance background to now fashion. And I thought it would be great to tap into that journey a bit more and for listeners to get a bit of an insight of how a change can happen  in your life or direction.
So firstly, take us back because before launching Maku, which is a fashion brand, you started in finance. So how did you end up in the financial world?
 
Maku (01:39)
Yeah. So I had a job in a superannuation company and actually back in New Zealand, I was a teacher. So I'd moved to Melbourne thinking I would get another teaching job. I couldn't get the position that I wanted. So one of my friends worked in HR for the superannuation company. And I went in for an interview thinking this would just be like a short term thing. And then I was there for 13 years.
 
Amy (02:06)
It's crazy where the years go.
Maku (02:09)
Yeah. And I think I just remember thinking when I started, wow, this is so easy. Like, it's such an easy job from teaching, you just go in, do emails and all that stuff, have your lunch and then go home and you're not there still thinking about the children and the program that you're going to teach for the next day. So yeah, I ended up just staying because it was quite comfortable at the time, but it was obviously never my passion.
 
Amy (02:31)
Have you always had a creative…
 
Maku (02:32)
I've always been an artist, yeah. So I've always been an artist, but it was always my side hustle. It was never something that I thought I could do full-time. I always wanted to. Obviously you always want to do your passion full-time, but I was never in that position. But funnily enough, the company that I worked for always used to hero that you can work flexible and you can do your passion. And so I would be the spokesperson for flexible working and I have my career as an artist as well. So I would talk about it at work as well.
 
Amy (03:03)
Oh that's brilliant.
And what prompted you to actually, you know, finally take the leap, finally start it and in particular start with t-shirts?
 
Maku (03:18)
Yeah, so t-shirts obviously wasn't on the bingo card for me. But I'd just finished breastfeeding my second child and I was living in t-shirts and I wanted to buy a couple of new tees at the time and they were really expensive. All the ones that I liked that felt like they were me were in the $200 mark or designer t-shirts and I just couldn't afford them. So I was like, whatever, I'll just print my own.
 
And there are a lot of companies around Australia, like the T-Shirt Company and the Print Bar where you can just upload your artwork onto their website and they'll print you the t-shirt and send it to you. And I thought, let's just give this a go. I've got nothing to lose. I'm not investing any money in this. Even if I pop these up on my website and nothing sells, I haven't pre-bought these t-shirts. So I did that. And of course, you know, my sister and cousin were the only people that bought them when we started.
 
But then a couple of influencers that I reached out to agreed to let me send them the t-shirts and it just took off. I think one of the reasons that it took off was I was designing pieces that I really wanted to wear. So I knew they were wearable and they weren't just me trying to copy something that another t-shirt brand has done or, you know, trying to come up with the same formula that everybody's used to.
 
They were looking for something different and for something really colorful. So yeah, it was a very unexpected shift in my career at the time.
 
Amy (04:50)
And at that point as well, by leveraging these other companies as well from a manufacturing point of view, initially then you didn't have to have that big outlay of, buying upfront all of the products, you could actually utilise that service, you know, print on demand, if you will. And then that I imagine gave you a good insight to what are people actually buying and what they want.
 
Maku (05:13)
It was really amazing and it was a really great way to start the business because there was absolutely no risk. You know, I would paint something and then 30 minutes later pop it on Instagram and people could buy it. And it didn't matter if the designs didn't sell because as I said, you know, we weren't buying stock in these. So I was really kind of testing what worked and what didn't. But what wasn't great was it would take people like 10 to 15 days to get their order because they were printing the t-shirts to go.
 
We didn't manage this company. It was a company that -- this is their standards. You get your printed t-shirts within this time. So not great customer service, but great in terms of learning and great for us as a business who were just kind of testing the water.
 
Amy (05:59)
Very much. And we often talk about it's kind of putting something out there, you know, test, iterate, learn, then, you know, build from it. So not having that huge, you know, risk at the beginning is really useful. And many people, you know, who are perhaps, you know, working corporate worlds or even just other jobs, you know, they might have this idea to, they've got a business idea or something they want to do, but you end up in this situation where, well, you can't fully leave the job yet because you're wanting to cover your salary, perhaps. But then on the next side, you can't grow the other business because you don't have the time to do it because you're working full time elsewhere. 
 
How did you navigate through that period? And when was the tipping point that you thought, right, we're onto something here and I can consider actually leaving my job?
 
Maku (06:44)
Yeah, it was after we had our first ever sale, which was Boxing Day. Bear in mind, the business only started officially in December. And then we had our first Boxing Day sale that same month. And I think we did six figures, and we were like, what? 
 
So I think it was kind of that point that we started thinking maybe this is going to be something we can continue. And then the sales continued in January. We had our biggest month ever in February, which we've learned now that in retail, that's quite unusual. And I think it was at that point that I was working till 12 o'clock at night, setting up these artworks on the website that we were using, cause it was so manual that my mental health was starting to struggle trying to do the two things. I thought, I can either lean in and do the business that I feel most passionate about or we scale back the side hustle and I try and keep the two jobs, but I just wasn't mentally in a place to keep the boat. 
 
And my husband was like, let's do it. I back you. We had just brought on Colleen, the business advisor, and she was like, I think you're safe. So it wasn't without a lot of thought behind it. And also, although, you know, four months isn't that long, we felt like we had enough data there to say, we can comfortably quit our jobs knowing we can expect this amount of revenue for the next year. So I think that was what made us comfortable to quit our jobs at that point -- we felt like we had enough data to say it was safe for us to quit and we would be financially stable. But yeah, it definitely wasn't without hesitation and without a lot of strain on us both.
 
Amy (08:31)
And it is harder, especially with two children in tow as well. You're not thinking of it just solely for yourself. Perhaps when you are in the earlier twenties or younger, it's like, oh, it doesn't matter. No one else is relying on me. I don't have really any responsibilities. But obviously at this stage, you've actually got those to consider as well. And when you did actually hand in your notice, what did that feel like?
 
Maku (08:53)
It was the best moment of my life, because although I didn't hate my job, I certainly didn't love it. And I think a lot of people can probably attest to the fact that the corporate world can feel a little bit toxic, a little bit draining. You know, when you work for a big corporate company, you kind of become just a number and you're very replaceable. So it felt really good to be able to leave that environment that I never really loved or felt passionate about. And also it felt really good because I just, as I said, wasn't in a good place mentally trying to hold up two jobs at the same time but my husband and I both felt really comfortable because like, if this doesn't work out, we can just go back to the same job. It's not the end of the world, we'll give it a crack and if it doesn't work out we just go back and find jobs, it's not the end of the world
 
Amy (09:30)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's having that mindset to think, you know, it's not like, this is the only thing that I'll ever do, if it doesn't work, it's like, can just go back or, you know, find a new job or a different job. It might open up a completely different area as well.  
 
When did you feel that there was then that moment that this is the true launch of the business? So as you said, it's sort of launched in that December over the Christmassy time, but do you think it was more so after you'd left your previous company that you were like, this is now it launched, or was there a bit of a journey in that?
 
Maku (10:18)
I would say we felt like we officially launched as a business when we started manufacturing our own t-shirts, because up until this point, we'd been using blank t-shirts from the businesses who'd been printing the t-shirts. And in that Boxing Day sale, we sold out of every single coloured, like, not the white and black t-shirts in Australia. So we had some customers who were waiting two, three months for their T --  it was excruciating. And I was dealing with every single customer service email with people like being so nasty about a T-shirt. You wouldn't believe how nasty that could be. And I was like -- struggling. 
 
So when we finally got our first shipment of T-shirts, which, you know, it sounds silly, but having our own nep label was such a big moment for me because it felt like I had officially a product that was mine. 
 
So that was around about April or May of 2025 was when we got our very first batch of t-shirts that were all ours. And we'd moved to a different printing factory who were working with us rather than just using a business who does that for lots of different companies or whatever. So yeah, that's when it felt like we were officially sort of making it serious. And that was also when I started really ramping up the ready to wear design process, because I knew that t-shirts alone was not going to be a business that was going to be sustainable.
 
And I'd already seen lots of other people starting to come out with their own art based t-shirts. And I just knew we were going to have to pivot really quickly, which is what we started doing at that point.
 
Amy (11:52)
And gosh, I mean, how was that journey itself? Because a lot of people, you know, they might be in the creative space or the arty space and think, I don't really, can't really do the business side of things or the logistics side and all of that. But as you highlighted, not only are you the artist, you then actually had to go and source the manufacturing. So was that a bit of a process? Cause then you're getting into how you want the t-shirt to actually fit and feel. And I know myself, you know, finding t-shirts and I've just got here, yep, the branded t-shirt here, but would this be my actual desired fit of t-shirt? Possibly not really. You know, so actually once you get into that side of things, you've now got even more elements to think about.
 
Maku (12:33)
Yeah. And I mean, I just loved learning every little piece of information about it. And we tested lots of different t-shirts and then, you know, initially in the early days, people were telling us that the necks were just a little bit too tight, so then we fixed the neckline, or they were too long or too tight on the hips. And so we really took that time to listen to all of our customers' feedback and really design a t-shirt that just felt like it was going to work for everyone. And so I really loved coming to that process and, you know, working that out myself. 
 
And the other amazing thing that the business did for me really was give me a love for my art back. Because having that be my side hustle for so many years, knowing that really, I did always want it to be my full-time job, but I just never could quite get the art off the ground. You just slowly lose confidence. I was like, I'm not a good artist. The only way I'm going to become, or get considered or taken seriously as if I go back and do a bachelor's degree. So I was either gonna stop art altogether or go and do a bachelor's degree. I was like, I've had enough. It's just draining me. It's draining my love for art. I don't feel creative. And that was kind of when I started putting the art on T-shirts because I just sort of had lost all care factor. 
 
It's kind of funny because then the minute I just dropped all of my inhibitions was when I started this company and then yeah, found my love for art again and couldn't stop painting. Like, if you look around me now, there's just artwork everywhere. I just am constantly painting. So it was so nice to be able to get my love for art back. And when it's your own company and your own passion, you're just driven. So yes, it's difficult to work out all of these things you've never worked out before and try and find manufacturers and whatever, but the hustle is like what keeps you going. It's exciting.
 
Amy (14:29)
Yeah, absolutely. And you're making me think, you know, as you're chatting, my auntie is actually an artist in the UK. She's an amazing artist and she does a lot of teaching and she does holiday courses and all of that sort of stuff. But selling the actual art is hard. The reality is a lot of  the very famous artists that we know of their time, they didn't become famous until they were dead.
 
So if you want to in your living life embrace and enjoy the art, it is an industry that is challenging to --  how can you give that creative outlet?
 
Maku (15:07)
People don't often have money for art. I mean, I'm an artist. I look at my own home. Like the priority of when I do have money and if I'm going to spend that on art, it's like way down here. Whereas t-shirts and clothes, we love t-shirts and clothes. It's so easy to spend money on. So -- and drinks at the bar
 
Amy (15:31)
Yeah, definitely.
 
Maku (15:33)
So yeah, I think it sort of helped me realise it wasn't that my art was bad, it's just that it's a tough industry to work in and it's a hard sell.
 
Amy (15:42)
Yeah, absolutely. And we have talked, obviously, and you've highlighted actually just some of those hard elements, you know, on this journey and really, you know, any business journey, but we also highlighted some of the amazing, like positive stats you've had. But what do you think has been the hardest part to the success or the business growth that people don't see?
 
You know people do just hear that, great, you quit after four months, it was making enough money. You know, people think of just purely the money, great, you're making enough money to quit your job, it's a huge success. What have been the things along the journey do you think that have been those trade-offs?
 
Maku (16:15)
I mean, the biggest one was when we sold out of those t-shirts in December, which was amazing because the business was growing. But sitting there and reading all of those customer emails of people who weren't getting their t-shirts, I was in tears every day. And my husband had to remind me like, you're not saving lives. You're just selling t-shirts. It's not that deep. But it was really difficult because you're in there and this is like your brand and this is your baby and you've got people like just, yeah, it was really, really hard. 
 
I think one of the biggest things for me to get through that was hiring someone in customer service to just take over those emails, because I just couldn't mentally deal with them anymore. It was so hard. And then the other really difficult thing to manage was learning to do ready-to-wear. I'd never done any of that before. The product development and finding fabrics that actually print the artwork and maintain the integrity of the artwork has been really hard. So just the sheer amount of money that's gone into trying to make these garments amazing. And then you get a comment on TikTok that's like, why is it this or that? 
 
Amy (17:18)
It's hard not to take it personally.
 
Maku (17:20)
It's really hard not to take it personally, especially when people don't understand how much really goes into it. And I think one of the difficult things too has been trying to work out our retail price. You know, obviously I would love to charge the same prices that Big W and Kmart do, but we just don't have that buying power. I think, yeah, trying to find the right balance of charging a reasonable price, but being able to keep a roof over our heads has been difficult to manage because we've never had to look at things like that and we've never had to run a business ourselves and understand what are all of the costs in a business.
 
Amy (17:58)
And there's so many - genuinely the customer has no idea about all of the levels. Everything you're saying to me is absolutely resonating with, you know, our journey with the Really Good Conversations so far, because there's like, there's the physical product itself. That's almost like the easiest thing. Apart from your ready to wear part, because there's all of these other elements from whether it's, know, yes, the marketing, but the storage, the delivery, the logistics, the postage, and then exactly what you said, things, once they go into the post, are a little bit out of our hands. You're relying on the postal services or the courier services. And then when you get customers saying the thing hasn't arrived, but all the tracking is there to say it has. It's like, yes. So totally understand. There's so many just like unforeseen elements as well.
 
Maku (18:52)
And probably one of the most heartbreaking things was not being able to put my very first bomber jacket into production. So we'd made this really amazing bomber jacket with flowers and everything over it. And then when the bulk shipment arrived, the art peeled off and it was devastating. Yeah, that was one of the big -- anyway. 
 
Amy (19:13)
It'll all become a book one day. 
 
Maku (18:17)
Yeah. It's been a huge, very steep learning curve.
 
Amy (19:18) 
As we go back to, the art is the thing that really, you are driving that visual element to the brand. We've talked about these other things, but e-commerce itself, is e-commerce your predominant main channel for sales?
 
Maku (19:32)
Yes. We don't have a storefront, so we're only e-comm and that's the side of the business that my husband manages. And he's really taken that on and is loving that. I don't know if you know how many e-comm bros there are, but there's like a little community of e-comm bros and they love talking to each other. And so he's really thriving with that. And I think that even if this business for some reason didn't work out -- but of course it will, manifestation -- he will always do e-comm stuff. Cause I think it's just business for him. 
 
Amy (20:02)
Yeah. And you have been recently identified in the top 50 in e-commerce. So how does that recognition feel?
 
Maku (20:13)
I mean, it does feel a bit like it should be Kyle's, to be honest. But I suppose the business was, you know, created by me. So, but yeah, no, it was really great and  really grateful to be recognized as part of that, especially being so, so new to this industry.  Just feels like a privilege.
 
Amy (20:37)
Yeah, brilliant. And something that we were talking about a little bit offline as well is the realities of doing these journeys and motherhood and coming from previous environments, you know, when you work for somebody else, that structure that you have when you're in other companies, and then when you have it, you know, completely on your own, how do you structure your work so that, you know, you can bring the energy to what you're doing?
 
Maku (21:03)
To be honest, I'm really -- I do struggle with trying to figure out the structure of my day. And I feel like I've gone through a few different ways of trying to get organized and printing out a calendar for the year and then never looking at it again.
 
Amy (21:18)
This sounds exactly like me!
 
Maku (21:20)
Yeah, I've given it a few different cracks. And for the most part, I just wing it, to be honest, I'm finding trying to find structure in my day is probably quite difficult for me because one day I might be needing to do artwork, and then that artwork might take me the entire day. So then I've got a whole entire day full of emails to catch up with on the next day. But then if I'm in my creative brain, I find it difficult to leave the artwork the next day because I'm like, need to finish this. So it's a work in progress. You know, I miss a lot of meetings, but people seem to give me concessions because I'm a creative. So that's nice.
 
Amy (22:00)
Yes. You are the brand. You are the visionary.
 
Maku (22:02)
I'm not trying to take advantage of that. It's just more that I think people realise that when you're creative, you sort of get in the zone and like time becomes a construct. Like I just don't even have a concept of time when I'm painting.
 
Amy (22:14)
I just think this as well, in these, in the business and when you're creating a product and running everything that goes with it, there's just so many different moving parts. I mean, I personally find myself, I jump between so many different things and then that's exhausting at the end of the day.
 
Maku (22:29)
Yeah, you feel like you haven't really finished anything because you've gone like, yeah, it's like when you unload the dishwasher and then you put the cup away and then you see something in the cupboard, you're like, I've to go do that. And then you come back and the dishwasher is still full. It's like, that's my day!
 
Amy (22:41)
Well, definitely the one in our household, and I'll say this for Alex, my husband as well, is the kettle that gets boiled. 
 
Maku (22:47)
And never gets made a tea.
 
Amy (22:49)
Then you walk away from it for a moment and then you come back and you go -- oh.
 
I'll ask you then: in your creative process, obviously you've had slogans in there as well, but where do you draw your inspiration from?
 
Maku (23:04)
I would say day to day life, really, I'm kind of a person who like, will be doing something and then I'll go, that gives me a good idea. And then I'll go and paint that thing straight away. But also, I'm finding I'm looking a lot towards luxury brands, and brands that have a lot of print heavy styles to look to. So yeah, I'm looking a lot towards brands like Gucci and Dior, ones that are really heavily print based. Because I find in Australia, like there's not a lot of the designer brands that really do lots of art heavy prints. I feel like we've gone a little bit more on the, what's the word, like quiet luxury. And so there's not a lot of print based stuff. So for inspiration, I'm finding going to places like that, where they really like, push the boundaries of what clothing should look like. And then I take that and I interpret it into my way. How can I make that my style and how can I make that more personal to what I like and what I love?
 
Amy (24:12)
I love that. Now, before I ask you some questions from our Really Good Conversations pack, I will ask you, has there been a conversation that has profoundly changed you or the direction of your life?
 
Maku (24:23)
Goodness me. I don't know that there's been one single conversation that's been profound or that's changed my life. But what I will say is that moving into this very new industry and meeting lots of new people, I found that networking has been so incredible and that taking the time to actually talk to people who you normally never would and forcing yourself even if you don't want to, go talk to people, you just learn little tidbits about everybody's lives and you know, maybe one person that you meet might end up having a huge impact on your life. 
 
Like the Lisas conversation, know, I met Lisa and then ended up talking to her sister who became our business advisor for the first year. Or I met this really beautiful woman in New York who turned out to be the manager of Ford models in New York. And she was just the most beautiful human I'd ever met. And her husband was a firefighter in the 9-11 incident. I was enthralled and spoke to her for hours. And I think that's one thing that I've really tried to lean into in this new industry is really taking the time to speak to people because you don't know what you'll learn or what might change the trajectory of your career.
 
Amy (25:39)
Absolutely. And I think certainly there is that when you are doing your own thing, you've got that flexibility to go and have these conversations. When you are in the, again, whether it's a corporate world, like you have meetings with your colleagues or whatever work it is. So you're not going off and meeting people necessarily from sometimes completely different industries. Or there might be people who, yes, they're still in the e-commerce space, but it's a totally different product. But then there's still so much crossover and learnings and challenges along the way. So yeah, I totally agree with that. 
 
Right. My questions from our Really Good Conversations pack. Question number one: What is one of your pet hates?
 
Maku (26:19)
People chewing with their mouths open or like loud eating. 
 
Amy (26:25)
Question number two: If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?
 
Maku (26:33)
That's hard, because I want quite a few. I think flying. I dream about flying almost every night and I just -- how amazing would that be? 
 
Amy (26:43)
Wow, I love that.
 
And question number three is: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?
 
Maku (26:54)
That's such a big, like, responsibility. One piece of wisdom. I guess it would just be to take care of the planet. It's the only one we've got. But then kindness as well and kindness -- Yeah. I don't know. It would either be, be kind to people, kindness matters or take care of the planet. It's the only one we've got.
 
Amy (27:16)
Both so important, that is amazing. And the last question that I like to ask all of our guests is: If you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?
 
Maku (27:27)
Okay, yes, I did think about this and it would be Banksy, and "Who are you?"
 
Amy (27:32)
Yessss
 
Maku (27:34)
Right? Who is he? The other one was going to be Andy Warhol. And like, did you feel you were as successful as you were? Or did you compare yourself to other artists? I'd love to just really rack his brain to understand if he knew how impactful his art was going to be on the world.
 
Amy (27:52)
Yeah. And that's, to go back to what I said earlier, it's like, do they ever actually know until actually it's sort of perhaps past their time to really -- when you're in it, you know, you're doing all of the things to try and get it out there. 
 
 Well, thank you so much for everything that you have shared today. Where can our listeners come and find out more, well, about you and look up some of your fabulous fashion products?
 
Maku (28:15)
Well, our website is makuthelabel.com.
You can also find us on Instagram, @maku_thelabel. I share a lot of behind the scenes and how everything works and all of that kind of stuff on our Instagram. So that's probably where you want to go. If you want to actually learn more about me, if you want to just shop the brand, makuthelabel.com.
 
Amy (28:36)
Last question, what is your favourite item to design?
 
Maku (28:40)
Dresses -- or pants, no, pants. I love a good trouser, especially because I'm a tall girl. So I like to design trousers that actually touch the floor.
 
Amy (28:52)
Perfect. Well, thank you for that and best of luck. I'm so excited to see where Maku, the label, continues to grow.
 
Maku (28:59)
Thank you.
 
Amy 
Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.

Summary
Phillip Di Bella built one of Australia's most successful coffee businesses, and sold it for $47 million. In this episode, we find what it actually felt like the day after he sold, how his definition of success has changed over the years, and what the next generation needs to hear about work and leadership. 
This isn't just a story about building and selling a business, it's about what success really costs, and what's actually worth chasing.
Guest
Phillip Di Bella is an Australian entrepreneur and founder of Di Bella Coffee and The Coffee Commune. He is also a mentor, speaker and advocate for innovation and collaboration in the hospitality industry.
Overview
Phillip Di Bella is the founder of Di Bella Coffee, which he launched in Brisbane in 2002 with just $5,000 and scaled into one of Australia's largest specialty coffee brands. After selling the business for $47 million, Phillip could have stepped away. Instead, he doubled down on building community, mentoring entrepreneurs, and reshaping what success looks like.
In this episode of Really Good Conversations, Phillip shares the emotional impact of selling a business with your name on it, the cost of relentless growth, and how he lost 80kg to take his life back after burnout.
He challenges the hype around startup exits, investment culture, and the "get rich quick" narrative flooding social media.
You'll hear his views on leadership, resilience, and what today's business owners need to understand about patience, failure, and building something that lasts.
 
Key takeaways
What it really felt like to sell a business for $47 million and why Phillip asked for the cheque, not a bank transfer
The personal cost of growth: burnout, weight gain, and what he changed after the exit
Phillip's definition of success today and why it has nothing to do with status or stuff
Why the next generation is being sold the wrong version of ambition
Startup myths, VC hype, and what founders should focus on before chasing investment
The importance of meaningful conversations, with others, and with yourself
The one piece of advice that changed the direction of Phillip's life
 
For more information:
The Coffee Commune https://www.coffeecommune.com.au/
Private Coffee Collection https://privatecollection.coffee/
 
 
Transcript 
Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Phillip Di Bella, entrepreneur, mentor, and one of the most recognised names in Australian coffee. He started Di Bella Coffee in 2002 with just $5,000 and built it into Australia's largest specialty coffee brand, later selling it for $47 million. He's done what many dream of, but instead of stepping away, he stayed active, launching the Coffee Commune and mentoring the next generation.
In this episode, we unpack what really drives him and what future game changers need to hear.
Welcome to the podcast, Phillip! 
 
Phillip (01:09)
Thanks for having me.
 
Amy (01:27)
Thank you so much for giving us your time today, because I'm really excited about this conversation. And as I've mentioned to you offline is, you know, to tap into a little bit of behind the scenes, a bit more of your brain and what makes you tick from the journey that you have been on. Because ultimately you have done something that, you know, many people are striving to do in business, launch a product, build a business, sell it, sell it for millions and sail off into the sunset on a mega yacht, never needing to work again. 
 
Phillip (01:43)
If only.
 
Amy (01:53)
And you haven't exactly done the latter part, but what I wanted to tap into, because I think people, whether they do start something with that end in mind and if it is the selling or whatever.
But if you could take us back to 2014 for just a moment when you did sell the business, how did that actually feel when that went through, that sale, for you? What was it almost like, the next day, to realise that is something you've exited?
 
Phillip (02:09)
It's a sign of relief, it really is. I think it's a combination of emotions. You know, a bit of anxiety kicks in, the unknown territory, a bit of disappointment, you know, you're handing over the keys to something that you've built from scratch. But ultimately, when you look at it and you go, hey, I've been able to build something quite remarkable, I've been able to look after people along the way. I've been able to, obviously now I can set my family up, which was very important with me being, my background being Italian, to set my kids up and take some money off the table because since 2002 right till you sell, you've got an amount of risk. You've got money on the line, you've got debts, you've got all sorts of stuff. So relief is probably, if you said sum it up in one word, relief. 
 
Business is relentless. It's even more relentless today than what it was in 2014, and we can sure unpack that. But because business is relentless when you're an owner and people say, what hours do you work? Well, you never stop working when you own a business. And it doesn't matter whether it's a micro business or a medium business or a small business or a large business, an owner of a business never stops working. The brain's always ticking and it is relentless. I'll keep saying that word. And so in summary, the one word that sums it all up when you finally exit and you know, and I, they wanted to direct debit the money into my account. And I said, no, I want the traditional checks. So I made them present checks and I took a photo of them on the table and you know, it was a bit of old school. The first thing that came to mind was relief. Relief because I was able to set my family up, set myself up and it was a validation of, you know, taking a punt, going out into a challenging world of coffee in 2002 with 2000 competitors, several of them billion dollar companies, several hundred million dollar companies, us being a startup with 5000k. Then growing to be Australia's largest specialty coffee company, which means, you know, it's manufacturing and supplying only into cafes, is that concept of specialty coffee. We had 11 % market share of supply into cafes, which gives you an idea of size. We built a prolific brand, we had an amazing team. It was just relief.
 
Amy (04:21)
And were there any points through the actual journey that stand out of times of just thinking, I don't know if I want to keep doing this? You know, some of my friends and fellow business owners, we're often talking and voice noting being like, what are we doing? Why did we choose this path? Maybe we'll just go get a job.
 
Phillip (04:38)
Yeah, look, all the time, you know, there's no secrets. I started the company in 2002, I was quite healthy, and fit over the years, before you knew it, I'd put on, you know, when I exited completely through the earn out and the whole lot and handed over the keys officially in 2017, I was weighing 167kg. I'd been traveling three weeks a month, I didn't have any work life balance or harmony, something I talk about now. And, you know, I look back and I go, it would have been much easier working for wages and it would have been much easier working for somebody else. And that's not a bad thing. That's why I made sure that all 130 plus of my staff loves coming to work and they've felt integral to the business, because the work team and staff are important and not everybody can be a business owner, but a business owner can't operate without the right people that are dedicated to the cause that are vested emotionally into the vision of the business. 
 
So I wanted to build a workplace that people felt a part of that success and the motto has always been, the more you do for the business, the more the business will do for you in terms of time off, pay, whatever, workplace flexibility, bonuses. The more you put into the business, the more the business will put back into you because I didn't want them to feel just like a staff member or team member because I didn't want to just show up as a staff member or team member into another organisation. 
 
But that whole saying where they say we do today really hard things so that tomorrow can be easier is something that I talk about. Everything was very difficult from 2002 to say 2014, difficult in different ways. From startup to growth to then being Australia's largest to maintaining that, to continuing the growth. But I look back and I go without that journey and without what happened there, I wouldn't be where I am today, which is, again, my kids are set up. My daughter starts university today, turns 18 in a couple of days' time. My boy's in grade 11, he's 16, just got his learners, able to buy him a new car.
 
It really comes back to now, you know, sitting there and being grateful and looking back and going, I'm 50, I'm the fittest and healthiest I've ever been. My kids are in a great position and set up well. I'm personally in a good space. And you know, that's where gratefulness and reflecting is so important to look back and go, I wouldn't be where I am and who I am today, had I not traveled that journey from a young age. And not just from starting a business, because my journey started nine years before that, working for somebody else, which started before that at university, which started before that growing up as a son of migrants, learning good values and work ethic and how to win with people, something that a lot of people forget today. Something that I instil into my kids, grades are good, but winning with people and a good work ethic will always beat your grades. So make sure that, you know, that to me is the trifecta. Something I instil in my kids, something that I instil in my team, is that you need that whole person in terms of their work ethic. So what I talk about now, mindset, skill set, heart set. They're the three key elements and that's something that was important to me to bring, whether I was working for somebody for nine years or when I became an employer to instil into my team. Have the right heart set, the right mindset and the right skillset.
 
Amy (07:41)
Yeah, perfect. And something that we are going to touch on today, which I'm keen to dig into is this sort of, the upcoming generations. But before I ask you that, I did just want to check and you mentioned, you know, money. How has your definition of success changed over the years? You know, from the beginning, was it -- right, well, I just want to make as much money as possible. But again, now you're at that other end and you ultimately, as you said, have created that secure financial future. How do you think that topic of money success has evolved over the years?
 
Phillip (08:10)
Great question, Amy, and I'll frame it in two ways. Firstly, my relationship with money being a son of migrants and seeing my parents bring a family up on $450 a week, you make sacrifices. So there's no brand new car. There's no air conditioning. There's only one TV. But Mum and Dad had paid off their house within 10 years of arriving in Australia. All the money got spent on good food, good times, barbecues around the table, barbecues at the beach, no fancy holidays, no fancy cars. They covered what mattered. And that was a safe house and accommodation, great food on the table and great company. So bringing it back to the value. 
 
So growing up, my relationship with money was to have enough to do what I want when I want. To me, money was a resource to buy freedom. It was a resource to be able to buy a brand new car, which is why I love cars, to be able to fly anywhere in the world at the front of the plane anytime. So my relationship with money growing up wasn't about materialism and possessions. It was about, you know, being able to amplify what my parents couldn't do. We had a beautiful, a basic house, but beautiful, safe, big yard, cul-de-sac, grew up in a nice area. We had amazing food on the table, but there were a lot of things you couldn't have. There weren't any overseas holidays. There weren't frequent holidays, but every weekend we'd be at the beach with relatives and friends. So it really is prioritising what mattered. That upbringing instilled in me values that then I said, if I want to amplify the car I drive or amplify the holiday I have or amplify the restaurant I go to, I need to go and do something. I need to go and make something of myself. And that's where that ambition and drive came to be the master of your own destiny. That was the groundwork. That was the fire in the engine. It was never about materialism. It was never about being somebody. It was never about ego or emotion for the wrong reason. 
 
As you fast forward, and of course, we started, did really well and all the rest of it. I talk about now and I fast track for people to understand, that to me, that success is now a triangle. At the top is health and it's non-negotiable. And on the other axis is time and money. So if you are in great health and you have enough time and enough money to do what you want when you want, then you are successful. It's not about the car you drive. It's not about the restaurant you go to. It's not about the wine you drink. It's not about the handbag you carry.
 
You know, I look at my parents and go -- super successful. My dad's 89. My mum's about to turn 82 on the weekend. You know, I'm fortunate to still have them around. They're in their eighties. They're not as healthy as they could be right now, but they've been quite healthy up to now, but they've had enough time and money to do what they want when they want. Dad didn't want to go back to Italy and travel. He sent Mum back two or three times. You know, he always made sure there was enough money to pay for, you know, my sister's wedding and my brother's wedding and stuff like that, family gatherings. There was always great food on the table. They had enough time and money to do what they wanted when they wanted that mattered to them. So I put them in the same category of success as somebody who might have a lot more money, but if they don't have the time, then they're not successful. And I've seen a lot of people that have money, but they don't have their health or time. I've seen a lot of people that are healthy, but don't have time or money. I've seen people that have time and health, but don't have money. To me, what I've learned, and the key takeaway for people, is that if you have your health and you have enough time and money to do what you want when you want, then you are successful. But it's identifying what you want, what matters to you, not what somebody else thinks or it's not about materialism. I always talk about, and hopefully it goes on my tombstone one day, life is measured in moments. 
 
Amy (11:50)
Oh, I love that.
 
Phillip (11:58)
Because there's no removalist truck following a hearse to a funeral. We don't go to a funeral and we unfortunately see the hearse out the front. We don't see a removalist truck behind it, carrying the possessions with them. So, when somebody gets up and talks about a eulogy, the eulogy is all about the moments that people have shared, not about things. These are things that matter to me.
 
Amy (12:13)
Brilliant. And you've seen, you've just got me thinking as you've been talking, do you see sometimes a difference perhaps in the people that you mentor that those had the more modest financial upbringing, they got more drive and hunger to go and get that ambition than perhaps those people who basically just had everything available and on a plate? Do you ever see that distinction?
 
Phillip (12:32)
Yeah, of course. And I would say, wouldn't say everybody, but I would say nine in ten or eight in ten. It makes sense. And the theory behind it is, if you've come from that, you've got a softer landing. And there is always going to be, in my opinion, and for what I've seen, there's always going to be a different level of determination and hunger in somebody whose worst case scenario is not as good as somebody else's worst case scenario. That's just the way the ecosystem works, right? I love boxing and I box because I like the training, not so much the actual fighting. And I've had a lot to do with boxers. And if you look at the boxers and you study the best boxers in the world, most of them, again, not all of them, but eight out of ten, all come from a really harsh upbringing. They all come from an upbringing that was just terrible. And you analyze that data and you go, well, what is it? And it is -- when they need to dig deep, when they're getting dragged through the trenches in that ring, the person who's rock bottom is a lot harder than somebody else is going to dig deeper. 
 
That's no different in business, in the person who's rock bottom in business…is going to be a lot more driven, a lot more dedicated and focused than somebody whose rock bottom is not. And again, it's not everyone, it's not 100%. There's going to be abnormalities in that, but eight out of ten, I would say there is a difference.
 
Amy (13:47)
Yeah, brilliant. And you touched on, you know, some of the younger generations that are now coming up the ranks and maybe, you know, whether they're in education or thinking onto their business careers. But, you know, I feel like there's a lot of noise and especially on the likes of social media, about a lot of the get rich quick schemes and, know, don't work a day in your life if it's not something that you love. And, you know, it seems to be that there's now, whether it's the build something, get investment, exit fast or make $100k in a month in your sleep or nothing. What's your sort of view on this for these, shall we say, younger listeners and generations about that approach to business?
 
Phillip (14:23)
Something I see that doesn't fail is two things. One, the common denominator of success is doing what other people are not prepared to do, putting yourself in that position to do what other people are not prepared to do, pushing harder, faster, whatever it is, normally leads to more success. And if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. We only ever hear about the quick overnight successes, but do we hear about the 95 % that have failed?

The hospitality industry, one in ten cafes closed last year. You look on the socials or you look at the media and you'll see the top 1% that are performing well. And people go, the cafe industry is booming -- because for whatever reason, shame, or there's not just enough attention brought on. What about the ones that have done it tough? What about the ones that have had a go but have failed? And a lot of them haven't failed because of their own issues or problems. It's economy based or they've been given the wrong advice or they haven't surrounded themselves with the right people. But for every one story you hear that's amazing, there'll be ninety nine that have failed. And it just proves that if it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

Like I said in the opening, not everyone can be an employer. Richard Branson says it best, and I was lucky enough to spend a week at Necker Island many years ago with Richard Branson, talking about a lot of stuff. But one of the things he talks about is an intrapreneur. You know, don't ever forget the person that works within your business that has entrepreneurial capability.
 
If you want, and from that I took was something, the strategy that I've always implemented. I want people good enough to own their own business, but I've got to give them a reason not to. So if I want people that are good enough to own their own, I've got to give them a reason to stay. Now that's the intrapreneur in an organisation. So this whole thing coming back to the question of, you know, everyone should do it, don't work a day in your life. Well, it doesn't make any sense. It's a lot easier now in certain industries to stand out from the crowd, with different resources, social media, the acceleration of AI, all this sort of stuff. It's opened up a lot of opportunities, but for every opportunity that's opened up, there's been a lot that have closed down. 
 
I always say that one of the best podcast ideas, here's one for you listeners, would be a podcast where it's just about stories that have failed. Because there's so much wisdom in something not working. Imagine a podcast series where we're talking to people -- and I actually, it's not being a sadist or a narcissist, I actually like talking to people that, where stuff has gone wrong, with great respect, but to learn, to fast track my learning of what went wrong, how did it go wrong? What was the turning point? What didn't you see that was coming? And in hope that I get to protect myself and my mindset and I can learn from that and go, well, how do I make sure that I don't follow that? I don't know of any podcast that exist that just focuses on negative stories. And not because it's negative, it's just because there's so much wisdom, so much knowledge in a series like that.
 
Amy (17:13)
Absolutely. Well, now you've brought that to the topic, I'll go off piste of my notes then. Can you share with us some moments that stand out along your journey that were like -- it was perhaps considered a failure at the time that it happened?
 
Phillip (17:14)
Yeah, well, my weight was a failure, right? We're told that, you know, we can have it all. We can't have it all. You can't have a perfect, healthy body, a great relationship with your wife and kids and run a massive business that's accelerating, you know, year on year at over 60 to 80% year on year. You just can't do it, because you can't allocate the time that the family needs, the time that your body needs and the time that a business needs to have everything working in perfection. And so what I learnt from that, through failure, through putting on 80kg -- I'm 80kg lighter now than what I used to be -- I now take all school holidays off so I can spend time with the kids. What I learned through that is, you've got to prioritise what matters to you at the time that it's happening. And if you're starting a business, that's going to be a priority, but don't forget your family and yourself. If you're going through illness or sickness, don't forget your business and your family. Try and make all three work as harmonious as possible. Right? That was something I learned as a life lesson.
 
You know, something that I learned in business, made mistakes, was so focused on front end growth, so focused on pushing the sales team across the country, that we forgot about the accounting system. We forgot about the systems and procedures in the backend. And all of a sudden in 2010, we blew up our accounting system, you know, and that was QuickBooks at the time. And, you know, accounting systems were way different 16 years ago to what they are now. The capability wasn't the same. And imagine blowing up your accounting system that runs all of your invoicing and your accounts receivables and accounts payable, you know, and then we had to go from QuickBooks to SAP. Now that's like going from a bloody, you know, Commodore to a Formula One car. It's just different, the amount of training, the amount of cost and the amount of everything. 
 
And the lesson I learned out of that is that when you grow, plan for your growth twelve months in advance. You know, so know where you are now and where you want to be in twelve months and put your systems and your processes and your skills capability and your workforce into the spot that you need to be in twelve months, not where you are today. Because otherwise you're working reactively, not proactively. And that was a key takeaway. 
 
So there's been lots of lessons learnt along the way, investing in the wrong people, investing in ideas instead of people. Made that error when I exited, got a bit excited, invested in a few businesses. Luckily, a couple of them have made more than made up for the others that were lost. But lesson learned was, don't invest in good ideas, invest in good people with good ideas. That was a real key takeaway. Lost hundreds of thousands of dollars investing in the wrong people, even though the idea was good.
 
Amy (20:04)
And then, you know, where you're mentioning there -- investment -- does feel, there's often this, glamorising investment. Especially people who are starting a business or in those early years, and founders can often be chasing getting investment as opposed to perhaps focusing on some of the foundations and customers. What do you think of that sort of glamorised world of investment these days?
 
Phillip (20:27)
Yeah, I think it's a great question because I deal with different businesses. It depends what business you're building. I'm a big believer where possible businesses should be bootstrapped. I don't believe in people going out to get financial investment and they're paying themselves $250,000 a year. They get too comfortable. I mean, I was never in the top three paid people in my organisation ever. Even at the Commune now, I'm still probably the third or fourth highest paid person in the organisation.
 
Amy (20:52)
Well, you don't need the money anymore.
 
Phillip (20:55)
Yeah, but it's the philosophy that I've always used. And I mean, I'm still running a commercial venture. I'm still running it and bootstrapping it, as in, putting the money back into it to return it and churn it. I'm a big believer where possible, but there are some businesses that you can't do that. There's some businesses, especially in tech space and that, that you do have to accelerate quickly and you do have to maximise the opportunity. And in that space, then yeah, you do need to go out to market and say, right, what investment do I need? But I talk about investment and I'm part of different things like Get Ahead is a fast growing  recruitment tool that's like Tinder for employment. The actual owners of Tinder are shareholders in it as well. It's called Get Ahead. They're the people that walk around interviewing people, "What do you do and how much do you get paid?", and you know, they're growing massively. 
 
So when I worked with Sam and he approached me on investing, I said you need to make sure that all investors are functional investors. They need to bring something to the table besides money. So I'm a firm believer that if you're going out to market to raise capital, that the person bringing capital to the table has to bring more than just money to the table. You know, they have to bring convenience. They have to bring expertise. They have to bring a network of knowledge, hopefully all of those, but at least two of those besides money. It's something that I'm really key about when it comes to now looking at any opportunity that I invest in and looking at it. But again, you know, make sure I'm investing with a person with a great idea and make sure that they need more than just my money, they need other things that I have to offer.
 
Amy (22:24)
That's brilliant, I love that. And the thing -- I've got some quick fire questions for you as well -- but you talk about now where you are, 50, healthy, fit, financially free, but where does that really begin? You briefly talked about it at the start of this podcast to go think about actually more to your youth and some of the things you did.
 
Phillip (22:44)
Yeah, look, where does it begin? I think it begins in mindset, it begins in forward thinking. I've always been, I look back now and I can say this, I didn't know this at the time -- I've been quite a visual person. I'm a visual person. There's a joke that people say Phil doesn't read instructions. He'll open a box and throw the instructions away. I'm a visual learner. I've got an ability to visualise stuff. As I said, my parents were great, great role models. My brother's thirteen years older than me. My sister's eleven years older than me. I've got cousins that are in their seventies. So I've grown up around a very good family with good values. And I've been able to watch and learn from what they do, what they've done well and what they could have done better. And I think that's where it all started in the mindset of visualising the life I wanted and visualising the life I wanted to give my kids. 
 
But if you said, where does it start? It starts with the values that are instilled in you. Now, don't get me wrong. I had a very good upbringing. But if there's people that have had a very bad upbringing. And what they learn is, I'm going to make sure I've learned what not to do. So they say, somebody that's had a bad upbringing will either follow the same footsteps or be completely different. Right? Because they'll either look at it and go, this is all I know, copy it, or they'll look at it and go, this is not who I want to be, be different.  So I think we do undervalue the concept of upbringing and who we are as people. But the point I really want to hone in there is, just because you had a bad upbringing is not an excuse to be an a**hole now. You have that choice to look at that and go, I'm not gonna be that person. 
 
When I looked at the person I worked for as a boss, I was like, I'm not going to be that person. When I go and open my own business, I'm gonna be the best possible leader that I can. I'm gonna be inclusive, I'm gonna reward great behaviour. I'm gonna reprimand bad behaviour in terms of, I'm going to point it out. But 90% of the time, I'm gonna tell them how great they are when they're being great, pull them into line 10% that I need, but I'm gonna hold myself to a higher standard than anybody else. I'm gonna make sure that I'm harder on me than I am on anybody else. I'm gonna make sure that I lead by example. I'm gonna make sure that I communicate what my vision is. I communicate what the parameters are, right? And I'm supportive and I'm standing right beside my team to help them and elevate them. That when we hit success, it's a we, not an I. We are successful, not I am successful, right, that I'm gonna talk about my team. And there's thousands and thousands of interviews over the years where, you know, I'm constantly talking about the team because they are the crux of what Di Bella was and now what the Commune is becoming. It's all about the quality of the team that you build. But again, you've got to reward them, you know, and reward to them is different to different people. You know, some it's monetary reward, some it's time, some it's, you know, gratitude. There's, as they say, there's five different languages of love. Not everybody's the same.
 
But I suppose the key is where people think, he's just waffling. No, it's meaningful conversations. When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with yourself? When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with those around you, whether it's your friends, your relatives, your kids, or your people and your workers? I think a lot of people have forgotten the art of meaningful conversation.
 
Amy (25:56)
Yeah. Everyone's just sort of rushing around and whether it's in your personal life, in the family home, rushing out the door or colleagues don't have time to give each other feedback or to collaborate on something. We're always in this narrative of, don't have time, I don't have time, I don't have time.
 
Phillip (26:11)
Everyone's rushing Amy, but no one's got anywhere to get to. That's what I laugh about is, everyone's rushing, but no one knows where they're going. You know, and I say to people, you're in a rush, what for? I'm not sure. Well, you know, and that's why it's so important to seek your outcomes, your destination, what's achievement look like, what does success look like, make it measurable, because rushing, rushing for what? If you don't know what you're rushing for, then what's the purpose, right?
 
Amy (26:35)
Yeah, such a good reminder, because I slip into the, always rushing or just always thinking I have more time than I do to get places if anything.
 
Phillip (26:43)
People are, you know, one of my pet hates is, "I'm busy". Really? So tell me the most meaningful thing you did in the last 24 hours. And I'll tell you that question stumps people. Yeah. You've been so busy. Tell me the most meaningful thing that you've done in the last 24 hours. What has stood out for you in the last 24 hours that's made an impact on you or somebody around you? Because if you can't remember, you weren't that busy. You're busy doing what?
 
Amy (27:02)
Busy for busyness. Before I ask you some of our Really Good Conversation cards, I've got some just quick fire questions to tap a little bit further into your brain, if you will. Obviously you have achieved a hell of a lot of your journey so far, but what if anything still makes you nervous or keeps you up at night?
 
Phillip (27:21)
People's expectations and what's happening at the moment. People want more for less, whether that's a customer. They want -- Australia at the moment is whinging about the $6.50 cup of coffee, yet you go to Europe or you go to America and it starts at $8 and their wages are half the price of Australia. So there's food for thought. That's quantifying it with an example. So people's expectations. 
 
Workers are no different. I talked about it this morning with my executive manager. I said, since when does everyone start work at nine o'clock? I walked in and people are hoohaaing around and having coffee and then telling me how busy they are. Can't be that busy if you're sitting around drinking coffee, and I got no problems, drink coffee till the cows come home, I mean, that's fine, but don't tell me that, you know, you're busy. You're waltzing around at nine and you're out the door at four o'clock. That's not busy. So that comes down again to an example of people wanting more for less. It doesn't matter whether it's people in the workforce or whether it's customers. So that is a bit of a worrying thing at the moment. Yeah.
 
Amy (28:18)
And you have often been in the media on stage on podcasts, etcetera. Do you enjoy being recognized, or do you find it a bit tiring at times?
 
Phillip (28:27)
Recognised for the right reasons. I'm quietly, and this will shock listeners, but I'm introverted in new company. So, and people go, explain that. Well, of course, when I'm on a stage or when I'm being interviewed, that's part of your role. I mean, no one wants to listen to somebody who's introverted, shy, and you know, so you bring, it's part of your job, you step up, you go -- but when I say introverted to explain it, if you're having a party and there's a hundred people there or twenty people there or a thousand people there and I don't know most of them, I'm the one that'll walk in quietly and go and you know hug the walls and make my way to the back of the room. Many times been called arrogant because people think he's just being arrogant, well no, because the moment somebody comes to say hello or somebody smiles at you I'll smile back or I'll say hello. So I'm quite introverted but the recognition for me the best recognition is when somebody, and I had this the other day, where somebody will come up to you and go, I came to one of your speeches ten years ago and you told me I was going through some terrible stuff and your advice was, get comfortable with your worst case scenario, use that as your risk management plan and it changed my life. That's the best type of recognition for me. When somebody's actually going, hey, I listened to something you said or I adopted something that you put forward and it changed the way I did something or it helped me in that situation. That to me is impact. So any recognition in the fact that you've had an impact positively on somebody, I'm all for. Recognition for any other reason can be flattering sometimes, but take it or leave it.
 
Amy (29:54)
Yeah, love it. What kind of example do you hope your kids take from your journey?
 
Phillip (30:00)
That anything you want in life, you strive to attempt and try it yourself. That you don't drag others down to elevate yourself. That if there's somewhere you wanna be or something you wanna do or something you wanna achieve, that you put yourself in the forefront position to make that happen and surround yourself with the right people. Don't ever be the person who drags somebody else down to elevate yourself.
 
Amy (30:20)
Love that. And how do you take your coffee?
 
Phillip (30:24)
Depends what mood I'm in. If being super healthy, it'll be a half shot long black or a double espresso bit longer. My favorite is an extra hot piccolo. So you can imagine people's dismay when I walk into a cafe and they recognize I'm asking for extra hot piccolo because the traditional barista's like, what do mean extra hot? Can you just make me the coffee the way I like it? Coffee's personal. If somebody wants it extra hot, make it extra hot. You know, if they're paying for it, they're the customer. You don't need to give them a lesson on how coffee should be drunk.
 
Amy (30:50)
Have you? Gosh, I mean, if a barista did know who you were, you would be a pretty terrifying customer.

Phillip (30:56)
Oh, not at all.

Amy (30:57)
Because it'd be like, my God, I can't get this wrong. Have you ever sent a coffee back?
 
Phillip (31:00)
No, I haven't sent a coffee back. It's constructive criticism. I've always given constructive criticism if they ask, but I have not sent a coffee back. There's been a few times I haven't drunk the coffee.
 
Amy (31:13)
Well that speaks volumes though. I don't know what's worse!
 
Phillip (31:16)
Well, that to me is the job of the waiter to actually say, the wait staff to say, hey, is there a problem? The dialogue to say, well, you know, not so much a problem, but it wasn't made properly or, whatever. I mean, we can deliver any message we want, but in a very respectful manner is something I was always brought up to be respectful.
 
Amy (31:33)
Love that. And do you ever just secretly go for instant coffee and not tell anyone?
 
Phillip (31:37)
Big fan of instant. If it's the right instant coffee, it has a place. We've got a great instant product at the Coffee Commune on my privatecollection.coffee website. We've sourced an amazing high altitude Arabica instant that tastes like filter coffee. Here's a secret for you listeners. It's the fastest growing category now and it will be for the next three years because of the cost. It's a lot more cost effective. People are struggling with disposable income around the world. It's a global issue. The amount of money they have to spend after all of their obligations and, and needs like insurance and gas and home loans. So instant is rising fast because people will always drink coffee. They'll just change the way they drink it and what they drink. But there is some really good instant on the market.
 
Amy (32:18)
That's good to know actually. Has there ever been a conversation that profoundly shaped you or changed the direction of your life?
 
Phillip (32:26)
Yes, I was offered a job to go into government when I was finishing my commerce degree and a lot of my family worked in government. So my brother-in-law and I were sitting in a cafe and he's a lot older than me. And I said to him, you know, I've been offered a job to go into government, you know, I've a commerce degree. And he said, you're, I've known you since you were eight years old. He goes, you're not built for working in government. He's been in, he was in government for forty four years. He said, you're not built for government, you've got too much entrepreneurial spirit, you've got too much personality. Yeah, he said, that is the route for you, take it from somebody who's been in government. So my brother-in-law shaped that conversation. I've probably never told him that, but there we go, we're sharing it for the first time.
 
Amy (33:07)
That's amazing because in reality to have a job offer coming out of school, education, whatever it may be, would be, we'll take it, it's security, it's comfortable.
 
Phillip (33:23)
That's what was being drummed into me by my dad. My dad was saying, you know, go to -- I was the first one to go to university in the family. Go to university, get your degree and go get a good job in government. It was actually being pushed that way. It was my brother-in-law that said, I'm in government. It'll stifle you. It just won't be you. That's some great advice so I wouldn't be where I am.
 
Amy (33:46)
Amazing, I absolutely love that. Right, I've got three questions. So those questions weren't even from our packs of cards, they were just other ones that I had prepared, but three questions. So question number one, if you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?
 
Phillip (33:59)
Mmm, the ability to see things that others couldn't. To be able to see, you know, I was having an interesting conversation with somebody yesterday about a global conference they went to and they had an AI speaker. And in short, I'll give you the short version. He said at the time there was horses and carts, the people with horses and carts never thought there'd be cars. At the time that there's cars, no one thinks that there's going to be no cars allowed, that they'll all be driverless because humans cannot operate as good as a computer. But people are now shaking their heads going, no, there will never be driverless cars. But the people that were in horses and carriages never thought that there would be cars. So imagine if you had that vision back then to be able to see what other people couldn't see.
 
Amy (34:47)
Yeah. And then maybe course correct potentially as well and go, actually, maybe is that a good route for us to be going down as for human society? And look at all the damage and waste we've done over there.
 
Phillip (35:02)
Agreed, agreed, you hold a lot of power, Yeah. Hopefully you would use that power for good.
 
Amy (35:06)
Yeah. Question number two. Do you have any regrets? And if so, what are they?
 
Phillip (35:11)
I don't have any regrets as such. What I could have done much better was look after myself during the journey, health-wise, and be a bit more present for my kids as they grew up. Not a regret because obviously since 2017, I've been able to have all school holidays off and they're now eighteen and sixteen. So that's, you know, nine years ago. So from the age of nine and seven, they got their dad back. But if I had said, how would you do it differently? Look after myself better so that I could be more present for my kids when they were, you know, zero to eight, zero to seven.
 
Amy (35:45)
Amazing. And question number three, what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?
 
Phillip (35:52)
It's actually Gandhi's wisdom. Be part of the change you want to see in the world. There's a lot of people that want to talk about what they want to see in the world, but they're not prepared to be part of it. And that's Gandhi's words that I talk about quite a lot. A lot of people sit on the fence and want to bark orders and they want change and they want better government, but they're not prepared to do the work. They're not prepared to research what government stands for and they just vote like sheep or they vote based on a message or popularity competition. They don't actually go and listen to the policies or processes or what people stand for, but they're the first ones to whinge about having bad government at whatever level in whatever state and whatever council in whatever country.  But be part of the change that you want to see in the world.
 
Amy (36:28)
Fantastic. Thank you so much for that. And the last question that I ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?
 
Phillip (36:39)
Look, can I have two?


Amy (36:41)
Go on yep.
 
Phillip (36:43)
So Nelson Mandela, and I'd have to ask Nelson Mandela, how did you forgive when anger would have been much easier? Because we all get caught up in those emotional states where our first go-to is anger. How did you actually forgive when the go-to could have been anger to fuel your existence? And the other one would be Jesus Christ, and that would be, did humanity actually understand your message or did we complicate it? Because you don't have to be biblical, you can be of any faith. So replace Jesus Christ with whatever faith you follow. But did that leader of that faith, did humans actually understand your message or did we complicate it?
 
Amy (37:29)
Yes. Wow. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for everything you have shared today. We honestly could talk for hours and hours about various different parts of your world, your journey and the lessons that you've learned along the way. So really appreciate everything that you have shared. And we've only even touched briefly on the Coffee Commune. So give a shout out to our listeners for where people can find out more about your world or any things you're doing this year.
 
Phillip (37:54)
Yeah, so the Coffee Commune, coffeecommune.com.au, we're Australian first concept. It's all about accelerating people's potential in the hospitality industry. It's a place where everyone comes to collaborate. It was a place where people said we could never build. We're a facility, so we're a $20m facility where you can manufacture any sort of volume of coffee. And then we're a community that now has over 1,850 members, the largest private community, non-government funded in Australia in hospitality where we're having a lot of impact with advocacy and workshops and education, but everything filters down to helping people accelerate their potential. 
 
For those of you that love coffee, I've released a private coffee collection. So privatecollection.coffee is where you can get fresh roasted coffee delivered to your home or office at factory prices. That's my personal thirty odd years of coffee expertise, all in a bag or in many bags, so to speak. So, if you love coffee, big shout out and have a look at that range for your home or office.
 
Amy (38:51)
Fantastic. Thank you. It sounds like you've got no signs of slowing down right now. So thank you for everything you shared and look forward to chatting again.
 
Phillip (38:59)
Thanks for having me.
 
Amy (39:03)
Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.