The Burnt Toast Podcast

You're listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.And it's time for the episode we look forward to all year long—ever since we made it a tradition exactly one year ago! It is time for... The Year In Butters, where we look back at everything we've recommended in the past year and tell you what's still buttery and what has...gone rancid. If you're new here: Butter is what we call the recommendation segment at the end of every episode. It might be a new favorite food, a great book, an experience, or a state of mind. But since we give recs every week, some Butters stand the test of time more than others! Find out if we still love...🧈 Tracking Virginia's hydration? 🧈 Corinne's new shower head? 🧈 The $16 sundress Virginia bought last summer! 🧈 And so many more! To get the full schmear, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Membership starts at just $5 per month and is the best way to support our work! (Just want the Butter, no strings attached? Buy this episode for just $4.)🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode contains affiliate links. Thank you for supporting Burnt Toast when you shop our links! Episode 224 TranscriptCorinneWell our big realization when we did this last year was that a lot of things we had recommended, like clothes, hadn't stood the test of time.VirginiaThey sure did not. We took a real hard look at my fast fashion problem. And I think I've made some real progress on that front, so I'm excited. I think a lot of our Butters held up pretty well this year...but we'll see. CorinneYeah, when I was compiling this I could tell that we were having a reaction to the clothes recommendation thing, because I think there is maybe, like, one this year.VirginiaWell, it is a lot to think of a Butter all the time! When I invented this segment, I did not know what I was doing. Podcast guests always get very nervous about the Butter. (We're not going to go over the guests’ Butters, by the way. These are just the Butters that Corinne and I have recommended together on our episodes, or we'd be here all day.) It is a lot of effort every week thinking of a Butter. I try really hard to think of something that's a little quirky and random, and not necessarily something you have to buy, though sometimes they are things you could buy. What are your criteria for a good Butter?CorinneWell, I think we have both found that if you don't think about it a little bit in advance, and then when you're on the spot, everything you've ever liked just falls out of your brain.VirginiaYes, then you don't like anything. Nothing is good.CorinneThis year, for 2025, I really leaned into food and media Butters. I was basically recommending whatever I was enjoying making for dinner or a snack, or what I was watching or reading.VirginiaI do think those are the best butters. Although I always enjoy it when we have a wild card. My favorite ever Burnt Toast Butter probably still is your sun face shield, which was one of the very first Butters you ever buttered. It was so out of the box and delightful to me.CorinneThat one really did not stand the test of time.VirginiaI know. I guess for me—as much as I think it's valuable for us to look at what Butters hold up—sometimes a Butter is just a moment in time. Not all Butters are lifetime Butters. Some Butters are more fleeting. They're like the the sand art and, you know, that's fine.CorinneMaybe in 2026 we should try to have more wackadoo butters.VirginiaI would definitely be here for that. Okay, should we jump in and go back and forth?CorinneMy first Butter of last year was the Connally Goods denim chore jacket, which is named after me. My last name, Fay.VirginiaSo obviously a great Butter right there. CorinneI stand by this one. VirginiaFor you to back away from a denim chore coat would be breaking news. CorinneThey actually just came out with a brown version that has blue stitching, and I ordered that.VirginiaSo, you are doubling down on this Butter. You're going to be a Double Butter on the denim chore coat.CorinneI think that is my only clothing one of the entire year.VirginiaWell, and Connally Goods is not fast fashion, right? It's company we feel great about supporting. A good slow fashion brand. And my Butter from that episode was the brownies you sent me for Christmas last year from Vesta Chocolate. And I'm going to say, Yeah, that one holds up. I mean, I haven't had them since, but this is making me be like, ooh, who do I want to send those to? Maybe myself?CorinneI think it's hard for brownies to not hold up.VirginiaThat's going to be an evergreen Butter in the Burnt Toast universe. Okay, your next one was the TV show Bad Sisters.CorinneGood one. I still like that show. VirginiaI still haven't watched the second season. The first season was amazing.CorinneYeah, can't say I've re watched it, but.VirginiaIt's a great clothes show.CorinneYes, and I love Sharon Horgan.Okay, yours was Taco Cat Goat Cheese Pizza.VirginiaThis is a good Butter and if you don't have that card game, and you regularly play card games, especially with kids, I recommend it. It's great if you have younger kids who aren't as good at harder card games—they can do well at it. We haven't been playing it as much recently, but I'm not getting rid of it. I think we've just cycled into other games for the moment? But it's a good one to have on hand if you have a crowd of people you're trying to get united in some way. This is a good crowd pleaser. CorinneYeah, that sounds fun. I feel like sometimes when you play a game a lot it gets too easy.VirginiaYou can get expansion packs that make it harder, and we do have some of those, but we just kind of maxed out on it for a minute. I could see that come back around.Okay, I've completely forgotten what your next one is. This outline just says the word Anora and I don't know what that is.CorinneThat's crazy, because it was a movie that came out at the very end of 2024 and won a bunch of awards.VirginiaOh yes! And it had what's her face from Better Things in it?CorinneYes. Mikey Madison. I stand by that. I thought that was a really good movie.VirginiaI have not seen it, but I love Mikey Madison in Better Things, which I believe was another Butter of mine last year. So, yes, great.CorinneYour next one was shearling, big buckle, Birkenstock clogs.VirginiaOn my feet right now. Absolute lifetime Butter, these clogs. I think I'm on my third pair? I've been wearing them eight years probably. They do wear out. I wish they lasted a little longer. Shearling often starts to kind of go bald on you. But they are my forever house shoes in cold weather, and they make me so happy.CorinneThat sounds really comfy. VirginiaI've still never bought Birkenstock clogs for outside of the house wear. but they're great slippers. If you're someone who works from home, invest in your slippers. Your feet are important. Okay, your next one is the book The Safekeep.CorinneThat was one of the best books I read this year.VirginiaI co-sign. I read it on your recommendation. My whole book club loved it. And we do not always agree on books. We don't always have the same taste, and we were all uniformly obsessed with that book. And then my mom's book club read it, and they were more mixed.CorinneOoh, interesting. VirginiaI think it was a little spicy for them? But I think I like that for them. My mom loved it. She got it.CorinneThat was one of those books I read, and then was just trying to get everyone I know to read it.VirginiaBecause you just want to talk about it. It's wild, it's so wild. I'm excited for anyone who needs a good holiday read. It's just such a good immersive novel. If you haven't read it, pick it up for your winter break read. CorinneOkay, your next one is one I am very curious about. It is the Water Llama hydration tracking app.VirginiaWe might have reached our first dud.CorinneHow long was Water Llama in your life?VirginiaI definitely Water Llama-ed for a few months. CorinneOh, that's a pretty long time. VirginiaI had maybe, like two-ish months, three months? So for folks who don't remember: This is an app that tracks your hydration throughout the day. The reason I started doing it was because I was having so many headaches and I thought I was dehydrated. And then I figured out that probably I have so many headaches because I have sleep apnea, so hydration became less of a focus. But what I'm actually proud of is that I didn't keep tracking. Because I am someone who can be a little too into tracking. I think the fact that I let go of tracking Water Llama is a sign of personal growth. CorinneI love that. VirginiaAnd if you do need to track hydration for medical reasons or whatever, it is a delightful app to use. But it's also okay to break up with tracking when it doesn't serve you.I do feel like I'm overall a little better hydrated, though, from the experience.  When I do a weightlifting workout now, I always make sure to have my big water bottle with me now. All right, you were really on the media kick. Your next one is the TV show Severance.CorinneStand by it. That was great. I feel like it was really fun to be watching Severance every week earlier this year. It was one of those shows that everyone I know was talking about. VirginiaI missed out on that! For some reason I loved the first season and have not watched the second season. CorinneOh my gosh.VirginiaI gotta get that and Bad Sisters going again.CorinneThis is Apple TV. You need to re subscribe to Apple TV.Virginia I am. I'm watching Slow Horses on it right now. So these will be next. CorinneAll right. Yours from this episode was...meatballs.VirginiaI mean, obviously I'm still pro-meatballs. I'm assuming there was a specific kind of meatball? Or a reason?CorinneI don't think there was a specific recipe, but I think you were like, "Meatballs are great because some people can eat pasta, some people can eat sauce, some people can eat meatballs."But it's so funny because I just saw a Tiktok that was like, "What is the deal with New York Times Cooking and meatballs? They are pushing meatball propaganda." And later in the year, I did recommend a New York Times Cooking meatball recipe.VirginiaWe're all in Big Meatball's pocket. I mean, I do feel like this recommendation could have been "dinner." Virginia's Butter is...eating.CorinneNo, I think it was like, meatballs as a good meal where people can pick and choose. Some people can eat pasta, some people can eat meatballs.VirginiaWe do still use them that way. Because the night the kids come back to my house is always a pasta night and one of my kids is a vegetarian, so we can't do a meat sauce. So we do often make her favorite marinara sauce and then have meatballs on the side for the meat eaters. I stand by it as a dinner crowd pleaser. CorinneEven as a single person meal, I feel like meatballs make pasta and sauce feel more substantial.VirginiaI definitely agree with that. Okay, you have Dune Sunscreen.CorinneI really like that sunscreen. I will say it is very expensive. It's less of a makeup-y sunscreen, so it's pretty liquidy. And it has a slight green color when it comes out. But I like how it goes into my skin. Virginia"I like putting green sunscreen in my skin."CorinneOkay, it's not bright green.VirginiaHave you considered a career as a beauty influencer?CorinneYes, obviously.Virginia"Guys, it's real green, and then it just goes into your skin."CorinneOkay, so you know what? It's a good sunscreen. Okay, well, yours, beauty influencer, was the magic Vulva Balm.VirginiaYou know, it's not green. And it does go into your skin. Certain types of skin. I'm not using this as regularly. Whatever chafing issues I was having at the time have have resolved, but I definitely keep it on hand. And I think if you're dealing with any dryness, it's a good starting point. I will say, don't rule out, like, do you have a yeast infection? Do you need some vaginal estrogen cream? For those of us in the perimenopause season, there can be a lot going on down there that you want to pay attention to. But this is a good starting point for short-term relieving discomfort. It's a great product. Okay, Corinne, how is your new shower head?CorinneIt is still there! Still working.VirginiaIs it bringing you as much joy as it was initially?CorinneWell, I think the joy I was experiencing at the time was that my old shower head was really effed up and not working well, and I changed it out myself. And I was just like, oh, that was a lot easier than I expected. And the new one is so much better than the old one. So I will say the joy has worn off a little bit. Now I'm just like, yeah, I have a shower that works.VirginiaAlways great, but also sort of a baseline expectation.CorinneYeah, but at the time, it was a revelation.VirginiaWell, I do think the advice to solve one small annoying thing in your house is good. That really does bring a lot of joy when you can tackle something, especially when it's something you think is going to be a nightmare to fix, and then it's actually not that big a deal.CorinneI didn't realize how bad the old one was until I put in the new one. And I was like, whoa, I could have more than a trickle of water hitting my bodyVirginiaThis is like when we first started dating, Jack changed the light bulb in my shower that had been out for like, I don't know, seven years, probably? I just had accepted that I lived that way. I was like, "I have a dark shower. Some people have dark showers." CorinneThat's really funny.VirginiaAnd it is a really dark shower. It's like, not a tub with a curtain. It's like, there's only one little door at the end. So it was real dark, and now it's not. That was quite revelation to me.CorinneWow. I can see why you kept Jack around.VirginiaWho knew light bulbs could be changed, guys? I learned. 2025 was a big year for me.CorinneAll right, your next one was giant coloring sheets. (Other options here and here.)VirginiaI do think these are great. We haven't done them in a while, so it's possible this was a Moment in Time Butter. It's a great thing to put out on the table if you're going to have people over, or if you just need a casual way to interact with your kids, especially if your kids are in a prickly phase. Just sitting down and starting to color is often a way to bring them like a moth to the flame. But it is the kind of thing that will stop working after a bit. Because then they're like, we've colored a giant coloring sheet. I don't know. It didn't become a family passion. I think when I first got them, I was like, "This is our new hobby!" And it's more like...we did this for a bit. Maybe I'll break it out with a different group of kids sometime. But I do remember when Amy's kids visited, and I put one out thinking it would be a good way for the kids to all kind of bond, who don't see each other super often. And nobody touched it. They were also off doing other things. It wasn't like we needed it. CorinneSounds kind of similar to taco, llama whatever. Goat Cheese. Water. Hydration. Taco Llama, hydration. Goat cheese.VirginiaYeah, I think sometimes you hit on something that really works to bring kids together and create a joyful family moment, and it's okay to just let it be like that one time or two or three times, and not have it be a forever thing.CorinneYeah, totally.VirginiaAll right, yours is black snail tea from Little Red Cup Tea Company.CorinneI stand by this one. An old friend of mine runs Little Red Cup Tea Company. And black snail is a really good tea that I always have on hand. But they also have a bunch of good teas. If you're a tea drinker, it's all Chinese tea, and I would say it's an upgrade if you're just drinking like whatever grocery store black tea.VirginiaCelestial Seasonings, no shade.CorinneYeah, delicious, delicious tea. Okay, yours was starting plants from seed.VirginiaOh, yeah, we did a lot of that this spring. I did way more from seed than I ever had before. And yeah, I stand by it. I had a really nice mix of flowers in the cutting garden that I wouldn't have had if I had just bought starts at the nursery. I was able to really plan which colors I wanted and grow different varieties of zinnias and cosmos that you don't usually find. So that was really fun. And we had great tomatoes. I'm trying to think if we had any real duds on what we started. We were a little too successful. We ended up with a lot of plants we had to give away.CorinneWill you be doing this again?VirginiaYes, I think we will. I think we'll try to be more strategic. And we also need to think through some logistics about where in the house the seeds live. We did them in the guest room last year. That worked pretty well, but then it was a pain to carry everything downstairs when it was time to start putting them out. I definitely wouldn't recommend it so much for new gardeners. I think it's a lot of work and stress to keep your seedlings going. And we did have a crop fail because we went on vacation and the pet sitter didn't water enough, and then we had to restart some stuff. So it's not without its headaches. But if you've been like a, you know, a seasoned gardener looking to up your game, I think it's time. I think you're ready. CorinneWhen do you start stuff? VirginiaWell, it's all plant specific. And depends on your growing zone. So in New York, there's some stuff I could start as early as March, and there's some stuff it doesn't make sense to start till the end of April. It's all over the map. So that's a lot of planning. For the next episode, you recommended the book Stag Dance, which is another co-Butter recommendation.CorinneYeah, That is a book by Torrey Peters. And another one of, I would say, the best books I read this year. YReally enjoyed.VirginiaAlso endorsed by my Hot Tub Book Club. Apparently you pick all our best reads. So good job. CorinneWhat are you guys reading now? I need a rec.VirginiaWe just did Kate Bear's new book of poetry, which was a fun one. But we haven't picked for next month. Yeah, Stag Dance is fun. It's really strange. It's short stories, which I often don't like, but I did like in this case.CorinneYours from this episode was...chickens.VirginiaStill pro-chickens. Also can't underscore enough that I would not get chickens if you don't have people in your household committed to chicken care. Because part of why I can endorse them is that I do very little work for them. But we are getting a lot of eggs now, and I am really enjoying the egg situation. And they are quite charming. As pets go—and keep in mind, I am a household that has four species of pets. We have mammals, we have chickens, we have reptiles I've had a fish tank in the past. I'm a seasoned pet owner—I would say chickens are less work than a lot of pets, and higher reward. They're not much more work than reptiles, but they're a lot more interactive and fun and you get the eggs and it gets everyone outside. So I really like having chickens with kids.CorinneHave you had to deal with any chicken death?VirginiaNo, we are very lucky that so far, all eight of our ladies are going strong. We haven't had chicken tragedies. We put a lot of thought into predator protection, which is a big concern in our neighborhood. I think we have some neighbors who are less careful about predator protection, and therefore they're kind of the frontline chickens and ours are surviving. I would say the greatest threat to them is our Bernedoodle, Penelope, who loves them so much and sometimes gets a little confused about her role as chicken guarder. Um, I don't know how to pronounce your next one, Mango Izze?CorinneYes, this is like a mango flavored like soda type of thing. I mean, still delicious. I'm not feeling enthusiastic about this right now. I don't have any in my fridge, But I did go through a real Mango Izze phase.VirginiaI could see mango being one of those flavors that you're really into for a bit, and then you're like, I've had a lot of mango. I'm ready for something else.CorinneI started on the mango, and then I got some other Izze flavors, and I think mango is actually really the best. And also, like, it's less versatile than just having seltzer.All right, your swing for the living room.VirginiaOh yeah. Oh man, best $80 I've ever spent on my children, hands down, is the sensory swing in our family room. I did have to replace the fabric because a child, and I don't know that it was my child, but some child did go in the swing with child scissors. and there was a hole that then turned into ripping the swing. CorinneWhoa. VirginiaDidn't see that coming. But not sure I can blame the swing manufacturers for this. CorinneSwinging with scissors sounds really scary.VirginiaObviously, it was not a parent-endorsed move. I wasn't there when it happened. I don't really know the details. I just know suddenly the swing had a big rip in it, and we've had a talk about no sharp objects in the swing. But the second one is holding up very well, and I'd already put the bolt in the ceiling and the cable and everything. I just had to replace the fabric. So it wasn't a huge issue. Obviously, this is kid to kid, but if you have a kid with any kind of sensory stuff, neurodivergence, but also just like any kid who, needs a comforting spot. It's a really, really great tool. Swinging is really regulating for a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. CorinneThat's awesome. VirginiaOkay, the next episode, I think this was a summer episode, and we were both on a salad kick, so that's kind of funny. We don't tell each other our butters before we record usually, so it's like, then we just both happen to recommend salads. So yours was the Smitten Kitchen garlic lime steak and noodle salad.CorinneYeah, that's a good recipe. I stand by it. But yeah, again, a summer recipe. I'm not making it right now. It's a cold noodle with steak thing. VirginiaI mean, it sounds great.CorinneYeah, I'm more going for warm foods right now. And yours was sushi salad. It was like leftover sushi made into a salad.VirginiaYes, I do still do this with leftover sushi, because you know how sometimes you over order a little on sushi? You don't have a whole roll left. You have like three pieces, or you have like a weird amount of sushi where it's not a meal on its own. CorinneAnd I feel like leftover sushi gets a little dried out.VirginiaChop it up, toss it in a salad with whatever. I usually do, like, lettuce, carrots, cucumbers, maybe some shallot or red onion or something. I try to do some, like, vaguely Asian ish feeling vinaigrette. I have, like, a store bought honey, Ginger one I use a lot. Or if I have some of the spicy mayonnaise left over, I'll use that to make a dressing. CorinneThat sounds good. VirginiaIt's such a good lunch. It's really quick. It's a great thing to do with leftover sushi. Love it. All right, you were back to TV the next month with rewatching Girls.CorinneI mean, stand by it. VirginiaYou have not backed away from a single Butter!CorinneI feel like my most backed away from was Mango Izze.VirginiaOh yeah, you were a little over that, but that could come back, too. CorinneI mean, it's a classic, you know? What am I going to say?VirginiaYeah, absolutely. Lena Dunham is a gift. CorinneYour next one is a fast fashion, Old Navy crinkle gauze maxi dress and not worrying about bra straps.VirginiaOkay, I continue to not worry about visible bra straps, and that has been liberating for me. Yeah, the maxi dress. Was a $16 crinkly cotton maxi dress ever going to be a lifetime purchase? Like, did we expect that from it? We didn't. I don't think. (Note: It appears to be gone from Old Navy's website, so clearly they didn't expect it to last either!) CorinneIt will not be coming with us into 2026? VirginiaI mean, I don't know. It might. It's also like, it's December. We just had our first snow day. Obviously it's nowhere near my brain right now. The fabric was looking a little worn by the end of the season. But it might be like a pool cover up, or it might not. It was for the moment. All right, yeah. I know the next one is a shopping purchase that holds up... Baggu bags.CorinneYep, stand by it. Feel like I really doubled down on things that are going to stand the test of time. I just used a Baggu Bag this morning.VirginiaI feel like I use them in all aspects of my life. They go in the car to the grocery store. I have all the pouches and organized things. My favorite purse is a Baggu. It's a great brand. It's a great brand. CorinneAgree.All right, what about one minute planks and possibly learning how to do a push-up?VirginiaI think what we're learning about us is...I have a lot of cool ideas.CorinneThat's true. VirginiaYou are better at committing. You're a little more loyal.CorinneI am very loyal. Loyal is a nice way of putting what we're seeing here.VirginiaI have more flights of fancy. Perhaps there was a week where I did one minute planks every day. That week did not continue into a second week. I mean, some of it was, I was doing the one minute planks because I was really short on time, and I was trying to get some movement into my day during a busy week or whatever. So I do think they're great for that. And I've just been able to get back into my normal workout routine. So if I've done a good weights workout two days ago. I'm not like, Oh God, I better do a one minute push up today. Like, what? No, it's fine. Learning to do push-ups remains an elusive bucket list goal. Maybe someday. Now is not that time for me and push-ups. No, I'm comfortable. I'm comfortable with my little pulses I can do.CorinneHell yeah.VirginiaMy counter push-ups. That's about it.All right, Fox Family potato chips from Maine. CorinneI mean, now we're getting into the really recent ones.VirginiaSo I assume that's still good. CorinneStill good. I wish I had some right now.VirginiaWhat would make one turn on a high quality potato chip? CorinneYeah. Nothing. VirginiaSpeaking of loyalty. We have values here.CorinnePotato chips.VirginiaFor sure, a core value. CorinneOkay, yours was pressing flowers.VirginiaWell, I mean, I'm not currently pressing flowers, but it's December. There are no flowers to press. But we did press flowers, and I'm very happy to own a flower press.CorinneAre the pressed flowers still present in your life?VirginiaYes! We framed some in little acrylic frames, and they're really cute. They're by my bathroom on a windowsill, and they look very pretty. And I think it's something I will do again, for sure. I'm glad to own a flower press. I don't know that pressing flowers is something one would do, like, weekly. CorinneYeah, no. VirginiaHow frequently are we expected to do it? if I press flowers once a season, I'll feel great about that. CorinneYeah, it seems like a good gardening add-on.VirginiaIt's a nice way to appreciate flowers that don't have good vase life. The really delicate stuff is the best for pressing flowers. Whereas, like, a Dahlia, you actually it's, like, too thick, it's hard to press. Your next one, I think you recommended more than once. I think you recommended it as a Butter on an episode, but then also during a live we talked about it. I feel like I've heard you talk about Taskmaster on more than two occasions. CorinneSo the real question is, when are you going to start watching it? VirginiaWhen am I going to start watching it? I have not watched it yet. CorinneI think one or both of your kids would enjoy it. I think Jack might enjoy it. I think you might enjoy it. It's a great show. It's funny. I endorse it. I know Burnt Toasties are Taskmaster fans.VirginiaWe heard from the people on this one.CorinneI think originally Aubrey Gordon endorsed it, so if you need someone cooler than me to recommend it...VirginiaThere's no one cooler than you. And I am sure Aubrey would agree with me on that, although Aubrey is very cool. You know what I'm going to do? I've been looking for a show the whole household can watch together. Because we don't have a show we can all four watch together super easily due to competing ages and preferences and mostly, opinions about how much you can talk when you're watching a show, which is a question, my children are real polar opposites on. So it can be hard to get them to watch something together, because one of them talks a lot and one of them does not like that. However, this feels like a show where some talking is okay.CorinneIt’s a competition show. But it's really, like, silly. And the season has a little bit of an arc, because it's the same people for 8 or 10 episodes or whatever. It's British. It's your cultural heritage.VirginiaNo, of course, my people. I'm going to try it as a dinner show, and I will report back to you. I'm going to say we have to do it.CorinneI feel like it's maybe PG-13 or something. There are sometimes innuendos.VirginiaAt their father's house, The Simpsons is the dinnertime show. CorinneOh, okay, I think we're okay.You recommended moving stuff around so you're more comfortable. Like moving your desk.VirginiaI moved my desk out from the wall. As you can see, I still have a wonky zoom background because I sit kitty corner in the room now, instead of with my back against a straight wall. And there's so much more room for my body, and I'm really glad I did it. Move furniture if your body does not fit! Okay, we're back to meatballs. Really could be the name of this segment. Instead of Butter, it's Meatballs. And this was your Korean barbecue style meatballs from the New York Times.CorinneThat's a great recipe. And I will say that I made it so much that I am slightly sick of it.VirginiaSo maybe not a long-term Butter?CorinnneIt was a moment in time. I made it for myself a bunch of times. I made it with my mom. My mom made it for my sister. I made it for a friend who I was bringing dinner to. Some friends started making it. It was a good recipe. It has spread throughout my community and and I will not be making it again for a few months probably.VirginiaBut it had legs as a recipe. Meatballs are a great thing to bring people. If you're bringing food to family with a new baby.Corinne Totally. And it's not a meatballs and sauce type recipe. It's just kind of like a, I don't know...meatballs.VirginiaHave some rice with it, or good bread or something.CorinneYeah, exactly. You recommended planting fall bulbs?VirginiaOh, Lord, okay, okay. My Butters are the ones that all fall apart under scrutiny. CorinneHow could this fall apart??VirginiaNo, I recommend it. And I did plant a bunch. However, have some somebody checking your bulb orders and making sure you don't over order beyond the amount of bulbs you can realistically plant. Because I have planted like 300 daffodils, and a bunch of other things. And I still have a whole bunch of tulips and a whole bunch of alliums that have not gotten in the ground, and it is December 3, and we had our first snow yesterday. So I am just looking at the calendar, and I'm like, when am I going to get these in the ground? Like, when is the snow going to melt? I need a rare 50 degree day where I can now get back into it. So this was one where my enthusiasm exceeded my available time and energy. When I've had a Sunday afternoon where I could go plant bulbs, I really just needed to take a nap, and I did that. CorinneCould you hire some help?VirginiaThese are going in my raised beds. So it's literally like, I need to walk out there, dump the bags of bulbs in the raised bed and then dump soil on top. Like, I could hire help for that, but it feels wrong. And the fun part is figuring out the combinations and I want to do it. So I endorse plantnig fall bulbs. But maybe just have a friend on hand to say, do you need to order that many bulbs? Maybe you order a few fewer bulbs? Because you might be tired.CorinneI helped my mom plan some bulbs when I was still in Maine, and minutes after we finished, they were being eaten by squirrels. So yeah.VirginiaThat's another frustration. CorinneSo maybe planting a lot will result in more surviving? VirginiaThat is part of the logic. And tulips tend to be very squirrel--they like them. So you have to have a protected location, which is why they go in my raised beds and I cover them with chicken wire until spring. So I do endorse this. It's a great Butter. But if you're someone who has a little bit of an online shopping problem. You might over order and find yourself in a mess in December. Stay tuned. Maybe I'll get them in the ground this weekend. Somehow. Maybe the snow will melt. We'll see. All right, this is the most recent episode we did. So to be fair, these are recent Butters. Can we say they will be lifetime Butters? We don't know. I, however, do feel confident that this Mayana Chocolate Bar you recommended is going to remain a fave.CorinneI mean, yes, very delicious. And I will say I did order some to my house, and now I'm a little sick of them. VirginiaOh, my lord. CorinneSo maybe my pattern is going all in on Butter, and then it growing old.VirginiaYou go too hard. It's not really the fault of the butter. CorinneNo, and like, I'm sure that we'll still eat all of them.VirginiaBut you hyperfixate. CorinneI bought a bunch, and I have them, and now I'm like, hmmm I also need, like, a different treat. I don't want to only be eating these. VirginiaBut also that seems like a great thing to have on hand when you have guests over, or, if you, like, need to bring a treat to somebody. Now you've got a treat stash. Being the friend who brings good chocolate is a good friend to be. Corinne Hell yeah, yeah. Okay, your red Adidas.VirginiaThey are so comfortable. I wore them for airplane travel, and they were really comfortable walking through airports. I love them. because they are so comfortable. I'm considering getting a pair in a more neutral color palette to have even more versatility with them, because the red goes with most things, but not everything. But yeah, they're really great, and the red is so fun. And I get compliments every time I wear them. And I'm like, I know, Corinne has great taste.CorinneI wanted to get a pair during the Black Friday sale. I would be like, this color, and then it would sell out. And it happened like, three times, and I feel like, now I'm waiting for the refresh. Virginia All right. What do we think of the Butters this year? We had a lot of really good Butters.CorinneI think we had good Butters. I am kind of like, maybe I should have some more crazy whimsical stuff and less, like a television show that is objectively good.VirginiaThat everybody agrees is amazing. You're like, "I also like this Oscar winning movie. Great choice."CorinneMore plastic sun shields and fewer Girls. VirginiaI think you need less safe Butters. Although these were all excellent recs and  you did recommend my two favorite books of the year. So you know, you do have excellent taste in culture for sure. CorinneYou know, you didn't rec any books this year.VirginiaI think it's because we do so many authors on the podcast? So I often don't do books for Butter.I think I do have these little crazes I get into, like I'm tracking my water! I'm doing planks! And I think it's good for everybody to know that if I'm recommending something like that, it might be more of a just for now Butter. But I don't have regrets about either of those. I think it's good. And same with my recommendations for kids, I should try to drill a little more into when I think it's going to be a really durable kid related recommendation.Corinne I mean, kids change and grow so fast.VirginiaIt's so hard to predict. The swing could have been a bust, and instead it's beloved, which is good because it's permanently installed in my ceiling. And, coloring sheets have had their moment in the sun. CorinneWell, should we go out with a Butter? VirginiaLet's go out with a Butter!CorinneI'm going to put mine on right now. VirginiaOh boy. CorinneI'm excited. This could be a sunshield type butter. Maybe don't look. Close your eyes.Virginia I'm closing my eyes. CorinneYou can open them now. I want to recommend: This festive red collar from Connally Goods.VirginiaI feel like you've been wanting one of these for so long!CorinneI really have and I've been like, this is not practical. But I ordered a bunch of stuff from Connally Goods, and I got this, and I have only worn it once. But you know, it really does jazz things up.VirginiaIt's jazzing! You were just in a purple sweatshirt, and now! CorinneI'm in a purple sweatshirt with a bright red frilly collar.VirginiaIt is frilly. It is large. It's not a little collar.CorinneNo, it's substantial. VirginiaIt's definitely Henry the Eighth vibes, like a ruff. I mean, it's not layered, but maybe a pilgrim collar? I'm trying to think, what's being evoked here?CorinneI feel like it's Alice in Wonderland.VirginiaI see that, too. I love it. And you're just throwing it on any outfit.CorinneYeah. I've worn it out into the world once, and it was like, to a friend's house, and I was like, I can't wait for my friends to see this and talk about it.  VirginiaWait and did they?CorinneYeah, they were like, what is that? It's amazing.VirginiaI'm glad they weren't just like, "don't say anything about the collar," because I'm really hoping someone comments.CorinneNo, no, yeah, it's, I mean, you're going to say something about it, I feel like, right? VirginiaYou have talked before about being interested in a bib. We've talked about how we both bibs were more normalized. And this feels like, once you're done with it as a collar, just turn it around, and it's a great bib option. CorinneI wouldn't want to get soup on it, though. VirginiaNo, I understand. I'm saying, like, when you're when you're done, keeping it pristine for collar usage. Just seems very versatile. Goes with everything.CorinneI do like the idea that you can use it to turn a non-collared shirt into something a little more fancy.VirginiaYou can fancy up a lot of garments.CorinneAnd I think they have it in other colors. VirginiaWell, I love it. Great Butter.  CorinneThank you. What's your Butter? VirginiaMy Butter? In light of recent conversation, I will own that this is a Butter of the moment, perhaps unlike your collar.CorinneMy forever collar, yes, definitely.VirginiaBut I'm on a real kick this week with organizing. Like, just one kitchen cupboard, or like one small closet. And I think this is absolutely something I do when I'm stressed, and it is the holidays and life and blah, blah, blah, but it gives me a sense of calm and regulation. This is my sensory swing. Is like, can I just like, solve this one function issue in my house? So a big one is both Jack and my 12 year old love baking. They bake together a lot, but we had all the baking stuff in the kitchen stored between two or three different cabinets. So whenever they baked, it was like, everything comes out, and where does it all get put back and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I had one large cabinet that I was able to empty out, find new homes for that stuff, and then make that the dedicated baking cabinet. And it's so satisfying to my brain. CorinneThat's great. VirginiaI guess this is similar to moving furniture to fit your body. And maybe this will continue. I just don't know that I'll be organizing something every week for the rest of my life. Probably not. But I think if you're feeling a little overwhelmed finding one small space you can tackle can feel really good. CorinneAwesome. VirginiaAll right. Well, this was a delightful episode. Listeners, tell us! Did you try any of our Butters this year? If so, are you still feeling buttery about them or did you too stop tracking your hydration? No judgment, safe space! And if you have new Butters for us, drop them in the comments! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Rachel Cahill, a longtime anti-hunger policy advocate based in Ohio. Rachel and her team support national and state-level organizations fighting every day to end hunger and poverty in the United States. Most of her work focuses on making SNAP (the government's Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program) the most effective, accessible and equitable program it can be in every community. JICYMI: When the federal government shut down this fall, it closed SNAP for the first time in the history of the program, pausing benefits for much of November. Benefits are up and running again in most places, but this has had major ripple effects on the state of hunger in our country right now. And it's led to a lot of long-term questions about what we do to prevent that ever happening again. Rachel knows more about the ins and outs of SNAP, and anti-hunger advocacy, than anyone I know, so I asked her to come on the podcast to explain what's happening, and what we can do to help fight hunger. We also talk quite a bit about how to give strategically because it is that time of year when a lot of us want to do charitable giving. Which is great! But there are good and less good ways to do that. Burnt Toast is a community of helpers, and I think this conversation will help us all be better at helping. If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work! Join Burnt Toast! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 222 TranscriptRachelI am a SNAP advocate. That's how I think of myself. That's my identity. I live in Ohio, and I have been working on SNAP, and the food assistance programs that are connected to SNAP, for almost 20 years. I started working on it in Philly, and have now worked in a number of different states. My passion is to protect our food assistance programs that help families meet their basic needs. If we had something better than SNAP in this country, honestly, I would work on that. But because SNAP reaches 42 million Americans, and it's the best safety net we have, that's the program that I've committed to working on. I do policy, advocacy, administrative, legislative—wherever we can fight for the program, we are doing that.VirginiaIt's incredible. I should disclose that we have a personal connection. I first met you, I guess, 20 years ago? When you were in college, you were a student of my stepmother, Mary Summers, who has also been on the podcast.RachelActually, I was a fresh out of college working in the community at the Greater Philadelphia Coalition Against Hunger. And Mary had students who she placed with us in a service learning program. Mary was one of my first and still mentors, who has supported me in lots of different ways through this career. And I think you did some interviews with Witnesses to Hunger? I worked on that program many years ago. So yeah, we've evolved a lot, Virginia, since those days.VirginiaYes! When I was researching my first book, The Eating Instinct, you helped connect me with folks for interviews. Rachel and I go way back in a shared advocacy spirit, sort of way so I just wanted to give people that backstory. And so I emailed you a few weeks ago to say, Rachel, help! Please come on the podcast. This was when the government was shut down and it had triggered the freeze on November SNAP benefits. At that point, everybody was scrambling, and I knew you were doing the most scrambling.  Of course, because of politics, the shutdown is now over. SNAP benefits are once again being distributed, for now anyway. But that is not to say that hunger has been solved in this country, or that the 42 million Americans who rely on that program are just totally okay now. You were like, "Do you still want to have this conversation?" And I was like, well, yes, because people are still going hungry! RachelYeah, thanks for the chance to talk about this! In the 20 years I've been working on food stamps, there has never been a moment I remember where SNAP dominated the headlines for two weeks straight. So on the one hand, I'm trying to see the silver lining in this massive drama to say it's a chance to educate everybody, including your listeners, about what the SNAP program is. It has been this quiet backbone program, running and feeding communities for almost 60, years. And during the shutdown, SNAP essentially got used as leverage for both parties to bludgeon each other with and blame each other for starving the citizens of the United States. It's unprecedented. I feel like that's an overused word these days, but this truly has never happened before. SNAP benefits stopped going out across the entire country. And the emergency food system—the food pantries, the soup kitchens, the food banks —was never meant, or equipped, to be able to overnight replace what SNAP is is doing in the community.Just in my home state of Ohio, we're talking about $263 million a month that goes out in SNAP benefits. No fundraiser for a food bank was ever going to come close to replacing that. It was a crisis. It was an absolute crisis that we were facing. So starting on November 1, people's benefits were frozen. They still had to complete renewal paperwork. They still had to comply with work requirements. But people weren't getting their benefits delivered. And then it turned into a Supreme Court battle. It went all the way up to the Supreme Court because the administration actually did have money available that they could have spent, and they were choosing not to spend it on the program that it was dedicated for. So finally, when the shutdown ended, the benefits slowly started flowing again. We're recording this on November 25 and in a few states, all the benefits still have not gone out. So there are still families who are supposed to get their benefits maybe the beginning of November, and are still waiting. The long-term harm of this is hard to overstate. The definition of food insecurity is not knowing where your next meal is going to come from. And we just traumatized 40 million people who did not know where their next meal was going to come from. 40 percent of SNAP recipients are children. Their bodies and brains are going to remember this trauma that they just went through, and it's going to be a long time before we can repair that harm. We need to make sure that this type of a crisis never happens again, and Congress is never in a position where they can hold SNAP benefits hostage, even in a future government shutdown. VirginiaI've been thinking about the juggling act that this triggered for so many families. If you relied on SNAP to cover groceries, that meant you could use other income to cover childcare or pay a utility bill. So we're also going to see folks having fallen behind on other bills. Maybe they're unable to make a car payment, which then impacts their ability to get to work, to get kids to school, so many different things.RachelThere's a saying that poverty charges interest. You might only have gotten $200 from that SNAP benefit, which supplements your work income. But if you're now having to put a bill on a short term loan or credit card and you're paying 20 or 30 percent interest on that because you waited three weeks...How long is it going to take families to dig out of that hole? We hear all the time about utility shut-offs, all the time about evictions that get connected to a small change in household income, including the loss of SNAP benefits. Now I will say, because we have made SNAP such a difficult system to navigate and renew benefits, even if the government never shuts down again, this uncertainty where your benefits disappear, you go to the grocery line to checkout and you find out that your benefits aren't there because of some paperwork mishap—that actually does happen a lot in families' lives. There's a lot we have to do longterm to make this a more stable program for everybody who's experiencing the instability of food insecurity. But this was certainly a crisis moment where it was hitting everybody at the same time.VirginiaSay a little more about that. Because for those of us who are mostly just seeing headlines, it's like, Okay, the government reopened. Okay, the SNAP benefits are back. But this is a system that was already not meeting the need. So what are some other ways SNAP struggles to support families?RachelFirst, let me just remind folks who don't know, if you've never been connected to the program: SNAP is a very modest food benefit. It is on an EBT card, like a little debit card, that is loaded every month with money for groceries. But it's the equivalent of, like, $6 a day on average. It is about as much as most people spend on a cup of coffee. It is not a generous benefit. There's a lot of misconceptions about what SNAP is. It's a very modest benefit you can only use for grocery items. The program—for as great as it is, and it's the best thing we have—has a history of exclusionary policy making. Certain groups have gotten excluded and carved out over time. And HR1, the big bill that passed July 4, really took a sledgehammer to SNAP, too. It cut almost $200 billion out of the program and did some additional exclusionary policy making, the impacts of which we're just starting to feel. So I put the barriers to SNAP in two buckets. There are eligibility barriers, meaning the people that policy makers intentionally exclude from the program. This includes groups like legally present immigrants. It includes people who are forced to prove that they are working over and over again, and if they can't provide the paperwork proving it, then they get kicked out of the program. So there is exclusionary policy making that has to be tackled at a legislative law making level. Then there's all this other stuff, which is most of what I've worked on for 20 years, and what I worked on with Mary twenty years ago. These are the kind of the administrative barriers that people face in tackling the program. Application forms that are 40 pages long, that ask extremely intrusive questions, asking for tons of verification. You have to do a full interview with a case worker, you have to renew your benefits at least every six months. All of these hoops are built up in the program to make people jump through, and that often keeps the folks most in need of benefits from accessing them. Not because they're not eligible, not because they don't need them, but because they just give up when the program is too hard to access. So we do a lot of work at the county and state level, state by state, red, blue, purple states to try to tackle some of those administrative barriers.VirginiaIt is wild that we think people need to work to have the right to buy food. And that we think people need to fill out 40 pages of paperwork just so you can buy groceries this week. RachelIn a number of states that have asset tests, you're asked for bank statements. You're asked for a copy of your rent receipt, your child care bills, how much do you spend on utilities every month? Applying for SNAP is harder than getting a house loan. It's harder than getting a business loan. It's harder than almost anything else, but that is the way the program was built. And there continues to be this persistent stigma or this narrative about unworthiness that has persisted in the program is so disconnected from reality. I'm hoping having this spotlight on SNAP, where we dominated the headlines for two weeks, does give a moment for people to take a second look at the program, really learn about what it is and start to fight for it. If you survey the American people, 90 percent of people, regardless of their political affiliation, will tell you that they think we should be doing more to help people meet their basic needs and pay for groceries, not less. But that doesn't match with what's happening legislatively in Congress. So we need people to know more about this program so that they feel like they have a stake in it. And I guess I just can't stop myself from saying one more thing: SNAP is so critical to our actual economy. One of the things that happened in the beginning of the shutdown is it wasn't just the folks losing that groceries on their table, it was the grocery stores they shop at, which, all of a sudden were saying, We have no customers, because 30 percent of our receipts come from SNAP and no one's shopping right now. I had a local store here in a rural part of Ohio which started laying people off immediately. Because they didn't know when those receipts were going to come in, and they don't have enough of a margin to be able to maintain their store without the program. So if we want our grocery stores to continue to exist and be in all parts of the country, we need SNAP. As that lifeline too.VirginiaWe agree we should be doing more to feed kids. We agree we should be doing more so that people don't go hungry. And yet, the program is built with so many barriers. And that's because there's this way we feel really good about fighting hunger—and it isn't the way that actually fights hunger.RachelI'll say two things to this. Because of the history of exclusionary policy making in SNAP, there is always going to be the need for charitable giving. And there's always going to be, I think, the need for a wraparound system that provides food in real time, today, for anybody who needs it. That's what the best food pantries and soup kitchens provide: No questions asked, walk in the door, get food today. But that doesn't solve the long-term problem. So while we are always going to need that, I think the reason there's this mismatch is this misconception about who benefits from SNAP. So, if you asked those same 90 percent of people who they think the most common person on SNAP is, they would say, "It's a 30 year old in their basement playing video games." It's the same stereotype and tropes about health care, about who benefits from the safety net. There's this misconception that there are people who aren't pulling their weight in society, and that's who's benefiting from these programs. But if you actually look at the programs, most people getting SNAP are elderly, retired, they're people with disabilities, they are children, and they're working parents. They are parents working sometimes two or three jobs, but in low wage work that requires the supplement of a SNAP program. This group of "non-working but capable people" that people imagine are benefiting from the program is a fantasy. And it's intentionally used by politicians who want to attack the program. That goes back to Reagan and before, right? It's a long political strategy that we have in this country. I've been really grateful in my career to see even the food banks and the rest of the charitable sector has come a long way in talking about SNAP as an integral part of feeding the community. Feeding America is a big association of food banks. And they will say: SNAP provides nine meals for every one meal that a food bank can provide. So I think the solution is not to say, "Is it charitable giving or SNAP that solves this problem?" It's actually the blend of the two that's going to make our community's food secure.VirginiaThere's a bit of moralizing, I think, that goes into this. People feel good about giving to a canned food drive, but not necessarily good about voting for policies that would protect SNAP. And with RFK and MAHA taking over the rhetoric around all of this, is that leading to even more policing about what people can spend SNAP benefits on, and what kinds of food we want people to have access to?RachelI'm going to first tackle the voting question. I think that very few people ever vote based on their beliefs or policy preferences around SNAP. I've yet to see a major political campaign where SNAP was a top issue that got talked about. That might change after the shutdown. We did see a lot of politicians on both sides of the aisle come out in defense of SNAP when the shutdown started, and that was, I hope, a jumping off point for people to actually vote. But I think there's this disconnect. I think there's a lot of bipartisan agreement here that we don't see. When you think about folks who are anti-SNAP, if you look at the comment section of an article in the newspaper that's about SNAP, you'll always see online comments that are disparaging SNAP. But if you look one layer under the maybe racism and misogyny that are layered on top--VirginiaHard to look past it, but sure, I'm with you. Comment sections are not my favorite.RachelAgreed. But if you do look past, most people's story is actually about they themselves not getting benefits from the program. So it's often a story of, "I don't like SNAP because when I needed it, I couldn't get it, or because I wasn't able to comply with the work requirement and that wasn't fair," or because I was disabled, or my family member was and couldn't get the help that they needed.So I think that, like so many social compacts in our society, if we actually built the program to help everyone who needed the help from the program, you would see more political support for it. That's why universal programs like Social Security generally benefit from really high public support, because we don't do the kicking people out there. There's not this sense of "if this group gets it, then my group doesn't get it."Some of the realest conversations I've had about SNAP are with families and parents who are just over the income limit and are really upset that they lost access to that benefit once they got a raise or once they got a slightly better job. And that just fundamentally isn't fair. So if we brought in the program and make it more accessible, we would have higher political support for it, I think.All right, on your MAHA question, which I know fits very well with your audience in terms of like you guys track the MAHA stuff.VirginiaWe do. Unfortunately, that has become a core part of our beat.RachelThe great irony of 2025 is that SNAP is one of the single best things we can do to make America healthy again. SNAP has every research study behind it that shows kids who get SNAP as children have higher economic output. They're healthier as adults, they work more. Older adults are less likely to go to the hospital, less likely to go to the nursing home, if they have access to SNAP. The research is abundant, right? VirginiaIt's wild we needed research to prove that feeding people made them healthier, but okay.RachelYes, but we have it. It's rock solid. I spent too many years trying to help those research studies to get published in peer-reviewed journals. We know that to be true. You also have a parallel movement that's been happening for several years, where food banks have been working with insurance companies and other healthcare providers to make sure that they're doing tailored meals, meal boxes for people who are going through cancer treatment, people who have diabetes diagnosis. So these sort of tailored meals continue to be a trend. SNAP is a payer. Medicaid is a payer for those programs, all of those things improve health. MAHA, of course, is not about improving health. You guys know that.It has become is about policing food, right? That is what MAHA is about. And so SNAP was an unfortunately perfect target for MAHA. As soon as we got into legislative sessions. This is at the state level. In January of 2025, we saw a flurry of MAHA-supported bills that would restrict what people could buy with SNAP benefits. In some states, it was soda. In some states, it was candy baked goods. In a state like Iowa, it's literally everything. If it didn't grow on a farm in Iowa. If it's not a vegetable or a legume, it's not in the program. So you've got  these extreme proposals that came out of it was the same two or three lobbyists who came through. They were Casey Means, they were RFK-alliance folks who came through in the state houses. And the only opponents in those hearings were the SNAP advocates. It was the Morris Institute for Justice in Arizona and a couple of brave food banks in some of the red states who saw these bills, and they were there to explain to lawmakers calmly how they have been working, how SNAP supports health, how there are other alternatives. I will say there were some victories. During session in Kentucky, the advocates very effectively educated lawmakers that it would be better to incentivize healthier purchases — because all the research says incentivizing healthier purchases works better than restricting access programs.VirginiaYes. Letting people buy food works better than banning what people can eat. RachelAnd so they actually got a legislator to to come off of a bill that he had supported and to propose a new bill for an incentive-based program. So I think that education work in some political contexts was very successful.But then we saw the White House call governors and said, "Well, you couldn't get this through your legislature, so now you need to do it through an executive order." And that's where we really have seen the most harm done with these proposals that have come straight out of of governors offices under pressure from RFK. I think my long-term view of this is that we are going to have to see the harm done in a handful of states, and see how much of a mess it is for retailers. Still to be determined if retailers sue over these restrictions, which really put all the costs on them to police their grocery lines. I hope what happens is we have, at worst, a couple of states implement these rules, we see the harm done, and we walk it back. And we see that the MAHA thing was a fad that we recover from in SNAP. Because at the end of the day we're talking about a $6 a day benefit. People are not able to meet all of their grocery needs with SNAP, regardless. You may accomplish shifting the order in which people check out. Maybe we'll put all of our fresh, healthy foods at the front of the of the conveyor belt to use our SNAP benefits on, but we're still going to buy our kids the birthday treat that they deserve to have. So it's a big old waste of time, in my opinion. And I hope that it's a fad we are able to move on from in the long run.VirginiaI hope so. MAHA is the worst version of it, but we did have Michael Pollan and Marion Nestle arguing for no soda on SNAP back in the mid-2000s. So it does seem to be this thing that we keep circling back to. And I think it is part and parcel with "it feels good to do food drives, but not to make SNAP more robust." It's this idea that all poor people need is wealthy white people to tell them how to eat, and that will solve hunger.RachelYeah. You are right that that instinct has been there for a long time, and it it probably will outlive it. In a number of states the American Heart Association came out in support of these bills. We had some doctors groups come out in support of these bills. But where they would get stuck—and this is where these proposals quickly fall apart—is how do you define the ingredients of these processed foods. Even, let's say a soda. So you had, in some states, the proposal was, "anything with bubbles is a soda." And therefore you can't buy it with SNAP. But then you have the doctor being like, wait, I did tell my patient to buy the diet soda or the 30 calorie soda. VirginiaAnd what about seltzer!RachelIt's so arbitrary! And if you look at the way that grocery stores label their products, they're by category. They're not by healthy or unhealthy. There is no universal healthy or unhealthy label, as you well know. So it's all well and good when it's moralizing in the hypothetical. But I had to spend a solid four months sitting on a SNAP restrictions work group for the state of Ohio. It was appointed by our governor. And I was in there with industry folks, grocery folks, from health care talking about the nuts and bolts of how to put this into effect in Ohio, which we're going to have to do in the end of 2026. And once you get into the definitions, it falls apart very quickly. So I wish we could go back to focusing on the bigger important things, but I think we're going to have to keep re-educating people every time this wave of this fad, this intention comes around. People need to be reminded that SNAP is there as an economic support to supplement low wages. If we really wanted people to not need SNAP, we need to have a higher wage economy. And that would be a much more straightforward way to solve the problem. VirginiaIt feels very part and parcel with the whole ultra-processed food conversation, which, similarly, when people start defining it, they're like, well, wait, what is ultra processed? What do we mean? It's everything, which then quickly becomes nothing. RachelIt's a distraction. But here we are. We still work.VirginiaOkay, so it's December. This is the biggest month of the year for charitable giving. I think you did a great job of explaining there's a role for food pantries and food bank systems in all of this. But that's not the full solution. How should people think about charitable giving, especially this December, right now, given what we're up against?RachelI love that people are invested in charitable giving at the end of the year. I personally do the same thing, and I try to look at the organizations that are doing the most long-term policy advocacy, because I'm looking at the upstream solutions, and those are often the most under-resourced organizations. You can look at the 990s of organizations. You can look at their overall budgets online and see that your typical food bank, or really any direct service, often has a many millions of dollar budget. But an advocacy organization that's there to change a policy that would help a million people often has a budget of maybe a couple hundred thousand for the year. So when you donate to a policy advocacy organization or a legal aid organization, your donation goes a lot farther and is much higher impact. Because even if you can't give $10,000 and you can only give $200 or $50, you're going to make a really big impact on those smaller organizations' budgets. So that's one place I would think about. This year, I am doing a lot of donations around immigrant support, given the onslaught of what's happening in this country against our immigrant communities. There are a number of organizations, mostly small and sometimes kind of fitting into the mutual aid category, that are trying to provide direct support as well as legal support to immigrant communities right now as they're under attack. So that is what I think, in this moment, is a really good investment. At the same time, the charitable food system is very dependent on donations this time of year too, because lots of people in the community turn to them. They know that they might be able to get a turkey at Thanksgiving. They know they might be able to get a Christmas meal from them. So those are never bad investments. I do think they are very good stewards of the donations and the money that they get. But if you can look a little bit deeper in your community and see where a policy advocacy organization exists—every single one of your states has at least one or two core social justice organizations that would really benefit from donations this time of year.VirginiaAnd I'll just make the point that if you are giving to the local food pantry, think dollars over donations of goods, because they can do a lot more with your money. They can buy in bulk. They know more what their community needs, rather than you assuming that it's something you have in your pantry. That's that's probably like the least impactful way to donate.Rachel100 percent. And a very common mistake that well meaning people make all the time is donating products that are hard to readily consume. Donating a box of mac and cheese, but not the milk and the butter that goes with it. Or a can of beans that needs a can opener. If you're going to do canned goods, make it a pop top because so the people can open it. A lot of times homeless ministries really benefit from those canned soups or whatever, but they need to be accessible without a can opener. So if you are going to do a food drive—I know my kids' school does one, it's a great way for kids to get hands on experience with it being involved— just think through, could this be a meal on its own, rather than, is this going to be something that someone's unable to use without other fresh products?VirginiaLet's talk a little bit about mutual aid. This is something Burnt Toast as a community, we've been just starting to wrap our arms around. We did a very successful Mutual Aid drive at the start of November to help with the benefits shut down, and raised around $11,000 that we were able to distribute to, I think it was 62 folks in our community. So that was great. It's something we want to do more of, and I know a lot of listeners want to do it in their own communities. But there are some things that come up for folks. I've heard people say, "I don't feel comfortable donating to someone I don't know." And some of this, I think, is a little bit of that internalized moralizing stuff that we were talking about, where it's like, am I just giving money to a random person and I don't know what they're using it on? So talk us through your take on mutual aid and some of the concerns you hear coming up around it. RachelI think mutual aid is a beautiful thing that has existed for many, many generation. It hasn't just been in the modern online era.VirginiaRight now, it's a social media hashtag.RachelThat's right, that's right. But it's always been in communities, and you could talk to communities all over the country, and they would say they wrap their arms around folks and share what they have in times of crisis. And that's what the modern era of mutual aid is allowing us to do—but with people who don't live in our physical neighborhood, because we're so segregated as a society. My fundamental belief is that cash is the best way to provide someone with the dignity to make decisions for themselves on what their family needs in that moment. I have no idea whether you need a bus pass or a pack of cigarettes or money for rent or whatever you need to get through that day as a human being. You should have the autonomy to decide what that is. When I started this conversation saying I've worked on SNAP for 20 years, because it's the best thing we have—if we had a robust cash assistance program, I would work on that. There are really nice models in some communities of how to target mutual aid towards groups who are otherwise getting excluded from public benefits and other programs. Here in Ohio, we have a local, organic thing called AMIS, it stands for Americans Making Immigrants Safe. And it's a locally funded cash assistance program for families who are excluded from public benefits. They're seeking asylum, they're working with a lawyer to get their paperwork through. They're stuck waiting on their green card, whatever it may be. And so that is a way that cash can be distributed to folks who are getting excluded from SNAP and excluded from Medicaid. So I really like that program, because there are folks doing the work of the connecting. I don't speak the languages of everybody who needs connecting to that program, and I would never be able to find through Facebook those folks who need that the most. So I think that's a great model. But I also think another really cool model that evolved during the shutdown was an organization called Propel. They have an app that people use to manage their SNAP benefits. And we were talking as the shutdown was looming, and they were like, "What can we do? Should we encourage people to donate to food pantries or whatever?" And I was like, "No, just use your app to give people cash." And they did! They figured out a way to do it. I don't know how many millions of people that they helped, but they were giving a $50 cash payment to the same families who were losing out on their SNAP benefit. So I think that kind of creativity of just saying, "Trust people with $50 in cash and let them decide what they need in this moment." As the giver, you don't own the choice, right? If that person gets ends up buying something that you personally wouldn't spend your money on, that is not on you. And that is not a waste of a donation. That is you just putting goodness into the world and giving somebody else the dignity to decide with themselves what they need in that moment. So that's my take. Get over yourself. Just give people cash.VirginiaYes, yes. Thank you, Rachel. I love that so much. I think it's just a moment when you feel those thoughts coming up, and it's important to pause and say, oh, wait, this is me thinking I know how other people should live when of course we don't. Of course we are not navigating what they are navigating in a day. But we can all imagine how would it feel if whatever our source of comfort, or vice, or coping strategy is, was suddenly inaccessible because somebody was telling you it wasn't good for you. RachelAnd that's the beauty of what mutual aid can do. We do all the other moralizing in our public systems. Families in the child welfare system are heavily scrutinized and penalized. People who are experiencing homelessness are heavily scrutinized. People going through drug treatment, who have had a traffic violation. There are a million other ways we police people in society. We don't need to do that with mutual aid.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterRachelWell, as a longtime listener, I will say I've gotten great ideas from other people's butter. So thank you for having this segment. Honestly, the thing that brings me the most joy right now is reading Anne of Green Gables to my daughters. We are just about to finish the third book, which is Anne of the Island. And it's, you know, from a million years ago, set in Prince Edward Island in Canada.  I will say what is just cracking me up with each chapter is the way that parents are just as annoying in the early 1900s as they are today. Anne is a school teacher in one of the books, and the things that parents complain about, like my Johnny really deserved an A on that test, are all the same things that our poor teachers have to deal with right now. We have screens in our house. I am not some puritanical Little House on the Prairie mother, but it's the one thing we do before bed is we've been reading Anne of Green Gables. So now we're starting to binge all the different PBS series. There's Anne with an E, Anne of Green Gables. There are redos, there's a 1980s version that's amazing. So all things Anne of Green Gables right now are bringing me joy.VirginiaI'm so rooting for this in my own life. My kids don't take my book recommendations. So there is a copy of Anne of Green Gables sitting in my family room right now that I'm just, like, waiting patiently for someone to discover. If they know I want it too much, it won't happen. So I just leave things like that out. I'm really hoping to join you in this Anne of Green Gables magic soon.RachelYou can mention that Anne is a real troublemaker, that's what got my 10 year old into it. It was when I told her some of the snippets of the ways that Anne breaks rules. Then she was like, oh, all right, maybe I'll try it.VirginiaI love it. My Butter is a really good cookie recipe. It is a vegan chocolate chip cookie recipe, which I was extremely suspicious of—it uses banana instead of egg and peanut butter. But they are so good and chewy and it's so easy to make that I've actually been baking them more than just scooping the store-bought cookie dough, which I will always be a fan of, because the ease is unmatched. But this is a really easy recipe. They're super delicious. I don't think there's anything healthy or special about them, but if you have someone who can’t do eggs or whatever, it's a nice option to have. And this time of year we need a lot of treats.RachelMy daughter's art teacher just told me that she's having a fully vegan Thanksgiving, and I was super impressed with her, and trying to figure out how I could possibly gift her something at the end of year. So I'm going to try your cookie recipe. VirginiaYay! Rachel, this was so helpful and informative. Thank you for everything you're doing. Tell folks, how can we support your work? If we want to learn more, where should we follow you?RachelThank you for having me on. I have been listening to, and learning from you for many years, both on the parenting side, with little picky eaters with your first book, and—oh my gosh, I want to show you my fan girl real quick. I'm sorry. Cut this out of the podcast, if you want. But here is a copy of—I know this is like, not a live video thing where your listeners can see me, but I am holding up Fat Talk. I was a pre-order! Let me show you, and I got it signed by you at your local bookstore. But anyway, I love your books, and I have learned a lot from you over the years. So I just want to say thank you for that. In terms of where you can find me, I mostly hang out on LinkedIn. I lead a consulting team because I don't like real jobs. So we actually do consulting projects for lots of different organizations that are all in the SNAP advocacy space. You can also find us at our website, and learn a little bit more about the advocacy that we're doing and the organizations that we work with. But we are always trying to build more SNAP advocates, whether as a volunteer, as a person with lived experience who wants to go and testify before Congress and talk about why SNAP is important, or just someone who wants to write a check and support organizations. We can always point you in the right direction. So feel free to reach out if you're interested in learning more about SNAP.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!If you've ever received food assistance, tell us what else people don't understand about SNAP in the comments. And if you'd like to help with ongoing Burnt Toast Mutual Aid efforts, fill out this form. We'll be figuring out our next round of support after the holidays!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your December Extra Butter episode.Today we've got a couple of rants and answers to your listener questions. On the agenda: ⭐️ The tyranny of School Spirit Weeks — especially during the holiday season! ⭐️ How it feels to date another fat person 👀🔥⭐️ How we're surviving — even thriving? — this Ozempic Season. To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.Join us here! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 222 TranscriptVirginiaOkay, before we dive in, I have a quick rant, which I think the moms listening are really going to feel me on. I would like, Corinne, to quickly rant about school spirit weeks. Because they're really breaking me a little bit this year. Do you know what school spirit weeks are like?CorinneWell, I saw this on our agenda, and I was like, wait, what grade is your oldest child in?VirginiaShe's in seventh grade. CorinneOkay, that is too young for school spirit weeks. VirginiaOhhh Corinne. Corinne. Sweet summer child. School spirit weeks start in preschool. I've been doing this the entire time I've had a child attending any sort of school.CorinneBut that's the whole thing! That’s more work for parents.VirginiaCorrect. School spirit weeks predate a child's cognitive ability to have school spirit.CorinneThat's not fair! Then who is it for? That makes it seem like it's for the teachers. Not that teachers don't deserve to have joyful spirit filled weeks.VirginiaSure, sure, I always want to appreciate the teachers. I don't know that the teachers enjoy it that much either though.CorinneWho is setting this up?The PTA or something?VirginiaThe PTA sets up some of them. Part of the problem in my own school community, is that school spirit weeks come from several different factions, and they don't appear to have ever coordinated their calendars. The elementary student council runs one, so it's a bunch of fifth graders organizing it. So they're jazzed for it! But they're expecting pre-K through fifth grade to participate, which doesn't make sense because the younger kids can't do it themselves. And then the week after they do theirs, we have Red Ribbon Week, which is a drug awareness thing. So there are themes like "it's no sweat to say no to drugs" so wear your sweatpants. CorinneUmm, okay.VirginiaBecause I'm sure wearing sweatpants as children completely prevented both of us from ever trying any drugs of any kind.CorinneI was really thinking I could come up with some great themes for that week. But I shall say nothing more of that here. Not for fifth grade.VirginiaSo the high school does their own thing. The middle school and elementary school are sometimes synced up, but sometimes they're not. Sometimes both my children have a random pajama day, but sometimes only one. They just come at us. Holiday spirit week is coming up this month, but they can't be too "it's Christmas" because they're trying to be non-denominational. But it'll be like, "wear your winter hats!" "wear something with snow on it!" CorinneOh my gosh. Are your kids into it?VirginiaI am fortunate that my kids historically only care about the day they can wear pajamas to school. Of all the themes of the week, that's usually the only one they're really like, "I want pajama day." And if they're allowed to bring a stuffy to school. But I should also note that we may re-up this rant in June because for the final 26 days of the school year, my school does something called the ABC Countdown, where every day is a letter theme, and it's like "B is for beach day, bring your beach towel to school."CorinneWhat?!?VirginiaIt's like all counting down to the end of the year?CorinneWhy are we making school harder? I don't think I ever participated in a Spirit Day, I will say.Virginia I do remember Crazy Hat Day being something I was very passionate about in middle school.CorinneThat does sound like something you would be passionate about.VirginiaBut when they are like, "wear sports team stuff," we don't support sports teams, you know? Despite my recent foray into football, I'm not going to get either my children in an Eagles jersey. That's a non-starter. I don't know sometimes they're low lifts, but even when they're low lifts, it's another thing to remember. And I have so many things in my brain at all times related to my children. I don't need another thing to remember. I also do think, depending on the district and the depending the way it's executed, spirit weeks can be really ableist and classist. There is often pressure to buy special things. If it's a crazy sweater day and you don't happen to be a family that owns a whimsical Christmas sweater, what are you supposed to do? Go buy your kids something? Not to sound like a Scrooge, because this is a December episode, but I'm coming out against all school spirit, period, as a concept, at the moment.CorinneAs a child-free person, I'm with you. I would not be participating. VirginiaMine mostly don't care. So we mostly opt out. But every now and then, there's this last minute, suddenly caring about it and it's so much pressure. So I'm opening the floor up to the listeners on this one. I'm sure there are people who would like to share their own rants. And teachers, I want to know, do you hate it, too? Is it making your job better? In which case I will try harder to participate, because I want your job to be better. CorinneI mean, I'm just imagining having 20 kids at the end of the school year with beach towels. It doesn't sound like it would make teaching easier.VirginiaAnd that's just B day. You've got 24 more to go.CorinneI'm sure 50 percent of kids lose their towels. VirginiaWhat do they even do with the towels once they get to school? It's never been made clear. Well, that's my rant about school spirit week. Now I have one more topic for us to get into before we go to listener questions. I have been struggling with a lot of getting dressed anxiety recently. It seems to have upticked for me. Do you go through periods where it is harder to figure out what to wear than others? How would you say it ebbs and flows for you?CorinneI want to say yes. I feel like there are a few different factors. I think one factor for me, and I assume probably for you, it's usually centered around social events, or if I have to leave the house. VirginiaThe worst. CorinneAnd then the other thing is if I just don't have anything comfortable to wear.VirginiaPants in particular. If the pants are not comfortable, God, it's just the worst. How are you going to make it through the day? CorinneOne thing I've really been leaning into—which is probably a controversial thing to say, as someone who makes part of their living writing about clothes—I've really been leaning into sweatpants.VirginiaBecause we're trying to be drug free, obviously, for Red Ribbon Week.CorinneWhat even what was that? Sweat? No sweat to say no to drugs? It doesn't even make sense.VirginiaIt's actually quite sweaty to say no to drugs sometimes.CorinneI've been leaning into wearing sweatpants out of the house. I have some of the elastic ankle Old Navy sweatpants. And I did Google how do you make sweatpants look less like you're wearing sweatpants?VirginiaOh, and what did you learn? Because this is what I've been working on, too. CorinneI looked at a lot of pictures. One direction you could go is wearing a button down shirt with sweatpants, so you're kind of fancy on top, sweatpants on the bottom. I've seen some fancier shoes with sweatpants. Like a loafer or something. VirginiaOh, interesting. I hadn't thought about that. CorinneAnother direction people go is full athleisure. Like, matching sweatshirt, make it a set. I also saw a lot of people wearing sweatpants with a nice t-shirt and jewelry. Like chunky necklaces, that kind of thing.VirginiaOh, that's fun. This is giving me a lot of good ideas. CorinneYou could definitely search sweatpants outfits on Pinterest or something.VirginiaOkay, this is very helpful.I have realized, for me, 100% of the time, it's not actually about the clothes at all. I won't share too many details, because they aren't my stories to tell. But I'm in a rough parenting season, and I've had some stuff going on. Which is why spirit weeks are especially unhelpful to me. At the moment, there is enough on my plate. CorinneIt is quite full. Yeah. VirginiaAnd in the last two weeks, where it has been very intense, this wardrobe anxiety has spiked so much. One day, it happened right before I was going to get on a Zoom with you! It took me 25 minutes to pick out what to wear. Guys, Corinne does not care. I could show up in my pajama. There is no bar here. CorinneI probably wouldn't even have noticed. VirginiaBut I was trying on everything, and everything felt wrong, and everything felt uncomfortable. And I think this was just where my other stress was landing. But it was really hard to break out of the cycle and recognize that. Part of my brain was getting it. It was like, "Pick a shirt. It doesn't matter. You're getting on Zoom to talk to Corinne." But I couldn't do it. I was totally just spiraling. So the spiral part of my brain was just like, "Should I layer somehow??" So my question is: What do you do when you're in that panic spiral to break out of it? Because logic was not working.CorinneThat is a great question. I'm having so many different thoughts. Next time, you could text me and say, "What should I wear to the Zoom?"VirginiaI mean, that is a great solution to that specific problem. CorinneShould we start doing spirit weeks for Zoom, where we show up to record in our pajamas?VirginiaOr sweatpants, no sweat?CorinneIt's a great question. How do you stop yourself when you're literally spiraling? VirginiaBecause you’re never going to make it better. Trying on three more outfits won't make you like any outfit any better. CorinneI always end up with a pile of stuff on my bed that then I later just scrape onto the floor and into a laundry basket of shame.VirginiaI'm doing that load of shame laundry right now. It's so pointless. But the fact that I did it before talking to you was really clarifying that this is about something else. Because obviously, that's not normally something I stress about. And then, anytime I had to leave the house for even minor stakes, like school pickup or kids' appointment or something where I was going to be visible, it would happen again. And I did stress shop a little bit. I will say, I don't think that's the solution. But I did stress shop, and I did at least specifically target my stress shopping, where I was like, "I am trying to get a very cozy sweatshirt. That is my goal right now". Because, to your point about comfort, I was like, I think if I feel physically cozy and comfortable in what I'm wearing, it will lower my stress a little bit. CorinneYou have also talked in the past about being a real uniform dresser. VirginiaYes. I have a basic cold weather uniform of joggers and a sweater or joggers and a button down. So this is the other reason I knew, okay, it's not about the clothes. Because I already have the uniform. But suddenly the uniform felt completely wrong. And I was like, no, no, this isn't what I should wear. So I don't have answers. I'm just throwing it out there because I bet other folks have experienced this. And it sucks! If this is a place your anxiety goes it just is a really hard thing to break out of. But dressy sweatpants, I think, is, is my uniform. And maybe one other idea is: When I can feel it's going to be a week like that, just decide ahead of time that it's dressy sweatpants every day. This is not the week to try on the jeans that you keep trying to convince yourself work.CorinneThat's probably wise. Maybe if you find yourself spiraling, and it's like, how can you snap yourself out of it? Put on music. Eat something. Or do something else to like, bring you back down to earth. VirginiaI think your idea about texting someone, like texting you, or texting someone else and being like, "I'm in a wardrobe spiral. Tell me what to wear," is really good. Just so people don't worry too much, I have a lot of support. Things are okay. It's just I noticed this was where the anxiety was showing up, and it wasn't a useful place for it to show up. And I thought, hey, it feels sort of like a Burnt Toast topic. All right, should we get into questions?CorinneYes, I'll read the first question. Is it affirming to date another plus size person? I feel like it would be, and it's something I want. VirginiaHell yes. Thumbs up for me. CorinneYeah. I also feel like hell yes. VirginiaI mean, look, mixed weight relationships happen all the time. They're very normal. It is totally fine to be a fat person with a thin person. Fat people are sexy and attractive to all people. So it is not like only other plus size people will find you attractive. But I think there's some comfort and safety and a shared language.CorinneI agree with that. I think part of what has been affirming for me is also just being like, yeah, I am attracted to other fat people. So it makes sense that other people would be attracted to me.VirginiaYes, yes. 100 percent. I completely co-sign that. It's very freeing and fun to realize and explore.  Jack and I call it "hot people problems." Like, you know, if your pants don't fit, you know, leggings fall down a lot. Just all the ways that, fat bodies move through the world and are not accommodated. It's like we have this shorthand joke, like, "whoops, hot people problems."CorinneThat's really sweet. I love that. Like, you knock something over with your butt, and you're like, "hot people problems."VirginiaHot people problems! And I think it's really fun to have someone you spend a lot of time with be someone who really gets that and is in it with you, right?CorinneAnd I love that reframing where you're like, "oh, like, I did something I could be embarrassed of," but instead it's a positive thing.VirginiaIt doesn't feel embarrassing. It's just welp, that's happening again. And I could imagine being with a straight-size partner, even someone who's super affirming, and super into your body, you would still would feel a little more vulnerable sharing some of that stuff. CorinneYeah totally. I mean, I will also say, even if you're both plus size, like, you could still have very different experiences of stuff.VirginiaEveryone has their own stuff with their body and their history of their body. I mean, we answered that question last month about when one person is pursuing weight loss and one person is not, and how to navigate those sorts of things. All of that can still come up. So I don't think it's just "look for someone in a bigger body," but leaning into "you find bigger bodies attractive" is really empowering and great. CorinneTotally agree. VirginiaAll right, I'll ask the next question. How are you both feeling towards the scale and seeing your weight? I'm navigating this in the later stages of recovery. Why do numbers hold so much power over us?CorinneA great question. In some ways, I feel I am the wrong person to answer this, because I feel less activated by seeing my weight. I think part of my own internal work has just been caring less about numbers and letting a number just be a number. Measuring different parts of my body to figure out if clothes will fit, getting weighed at the doctor's office, it's all whatever. But I know that numbers are really hard for a lot of people.VirginiaWould you say there was a time in your life where numbers were a lot harder for you? CorinneMy relationship to weight numbers, at least for a long time, was, like, I actually am not able to control this, you know? Or the effort to control it is insane. So, like, why? I think I also realized early on that different people weighed such different amounts. I remember as maybe a teenager realizing whoa, I weigh a lot more than my mom, but we're the same pant size. Obviously not true anymore. But I don't know, weight is so arbitrary in some ways.VirginiaI think what you're articulating is where most people are trying to get! I think it's a really great place to be, and I'm there a lot of the time, and then I'm not always. And so I'm sort of a middle of the road on this one. I should also say, I've never been in formal recovery from an eating disorder. I think if you're doing that work, this is something to really be working with your therapy team about. So that's sort of a little different than what Corinne and I can share here. But I do think that's the goal. I do think there's a lot of power in letting the numbers have less power. I think where I've been able to make that progress is on clothing sizes. Because just learning the absolute complete lack of science or logic or rhyme or reason to women's clothing sizes is maddening but liberating. I am able to absolutely not care, and have a completely neutral reaction, to whether I'm in the extra large in a line or the 3X in a line or any size. Other than I'm annoyed if I'm in the 3X because I'm like, "well, this is fake size inclusion." But I'm not taking that on personally. Whatever size I'm wearing, I'm just like, oh, okay, that's what this brand is saying. And I think that's hard. I think that did not used to be true for me. And I think a lot of people feel a lot of attachment to clothing sizes and so really learning to just have no reaction to those because they just tell you nothing.CorinneMaybe my not caring now actually comes from weighing myself so much as a younger person. Because I remember seeing how my weight fluctuates over the course of a day. It fluctuates with my period. I won't say numbers, but a thin person could be like, "I just went on a big diet and I lost X amount of pounds," and I'm like, "that's me taking a poop." I could fluctuate that much from morning to lunch time. I don't know. VirginiaEverything you're saying is just gold. It is a lot about just continually reminding yourself of how meaningless these numbers are, how arbitrary and fluctuating they are, and giving yourself permission to step back. And that's just not always the easiest thing to do, depending on your brain chemistry and a lot of other factors. I mean, I will say I'm completely not triggered by having my neck or my calves measured. That is just like, huh okay, that's what that is. CorinneIn some ways, it is useful information to have. And if you can just let it be information, then there's no value attached to it.VirginiaI wrote about weighing myself at the doctor's office out of curiosity a few months ago, and how that then did trigger a spiral, which surprised me. And so I don't want to weigh myself at the doctor's office ever again. So I think it's also worth noting, in which contexts will you feel more vulnerable engaging with these numbers? And that's a very vulnerable context for a lot of us. I am not going to have a scale in my house. I have daughters. I don't think scales are responsible home items, especially if you're a parent. But I do think I would feel more neutral if I were to randomly get on a hotel scale or something. Do you know what I mean? And part of it is, like, is this scale calibrated correctly? Did they put it on carpet and then it actually isn't working at all? CorinneThat's a great point, too. VirginiaThey're not giving you an accurate number most of the time. So I think it's also fine to, just as a protective stance, say, "I don't engage with those numbers." But if you do happen to come across it, remembering that it tells you very little about yourself.CorinneYeah. All right. How are you managing to stay positive in the Ozempic World?VirginiaOh man. Are we staying positive? CorinneI don't know. Before we started recording, we were talking about how both of us, and everyone we know, is holding on by a thread.VirginiaAnd not necessarily about Ozempic, just about life in general, the state of the world, government, etc. It's rough out there. CorinneIt's feeling like a hard time to be alive.VirginiaIt's hard be a human with a body these days. I think I am doing some protective things. I am continuing to curate my social media and unfollow people I need to unfollow. We talked about our love of Bad Skinny Girl TV, but I am mindful of how much skinny person content I consume, if I'm being honest. Especially when I was in the spiral in the last week of not being able to get dressed—because some of that did turn into body criticism. And I'm able to look at that now and be like, that was not useful. It's just a reminder that if you have something else going on, you'll turn it into dumping on your body, because that's what we've been taught to do. I'm doing that Fattify Your Feed series on the newsletter now, because, I want to keep looking at awesome fat people. I want to lean into that, as opposed to the toxic content.CorinneWell, I have been slightly wondering if we're starting to see a kind of Ozempic backlash, because The Cut just published that piece about kind of like GLP1s making life a bit miserable.VirginiaI was really interested they did that—because they certainly published some of the most pro-GLP1 content at the beginning of this whole thing.CorinneYeah, but at this point, the “I'm taking a GLP1” content is boring, because there's been so much of it. So now we've moved on to actually, there's another side to this story. I think we're still in the everyone's getting skinny thing, but.VirginiaI think, too, the more I hear people's stories and understand what goes into the decision for a lot of folks, the more I'm able to a have a lot of compassion for the decision. Very often it's not just "I want to feel better in my clothes," or whatever. Very often it is I need this to access fertility treatment. I need this to be treated fairly in my workplace. All of those sorts of reasons where it's like, you got to do what you got to do to survive and get what you need. So I'm less triggered by people's individual choices around it at this point. It's just like any other pursuit of weight loss—sometimes it makes sense to pursue weight loss, not because I think it's the "best thing" for anyone, but because it feels necessary. And so I'm able to say, well, it's feeling necessary to that person. And I'm glad it's not feeling necessary to me personally, but that's a function of a lot of privilege. I think another thing I want to say—and this is ironic, as someone who writes a newsletter and produces a podcast all about anti-fatness and diet culture—but being less engaged with the conversation is good sometimes. I don't mean be less engaged with our work, but, I've been thinking about it since we did our problematic faves episode. Like, it's okay to just let some of it skate by. CorinneYeah. Well at this point it's like, the Ozempic conversation has been going on pretty hardcore since.... 2023.VirginiaYeah, January 2023. CorinneThat's a long time to be getting mad every time.VirginiaWe're almost three years into it.CorinneI just can't get as enraged anymore.VirginiaAnd the conversation is not changing, right? "Is this killing the body positivity movement? What does it mean to not have food noise?" I'm getting the same interview requests over and over. Journalists don't have any new questions to ask me about it. So there's not a lot of news, or if there is, it's actually old news being repackaged. It doesn't change the core conversation around its role as a weight loss drug . So I think just finding ways to let it be, and stay true to what you want to do.Okay, okay, all right, I'm going to bring us up with the last question, which is a fun one. What is your fav winter holiday tradition and or food.Corinne Love this question. VirginiaI know you love these food tradition type questions.Corinne I love to talk about food. I mean, there's almost so many, it's hard to know where to begin. I feel like the first thing that comes to mind is soup. Aren't you not a big soup fan?VirginiaYou know, I'm reclaiming soup. I'm on a journey. CorinneI love soup so much. VirginiaI'm coming around quite a lot on soup this season in particular. CorinneOkay, great. Soup. As far as holidays go, I feel like my family usually does a big breakfast-y thing on the day of Christmas, and I really enjoy that. Like waffles and grapefruit and stuff. I love that. But I'm really here for all of it.Virginia Yeah, really not turning away any food traditions. I am becoming a soup person. And I realized a lot of that was about letting go of diet culture. I think soup has a very diet-y connotation, and realizing that that it is possible for it to be not remotely diet-y is how I'm able to enjoy it now, with a lot of bread, with a lot of cheese. There are many very non diet-y soup. CorinneCreamy soups. VirginiaCreamy soups! Love it. Probably my favorite Christmas tradition, since my mom is British, we always have crackers on the table. For folks who don't know are these long paper tubes. They're twisted at each end. They have a firecracker thing inside that just makes a bang. And before you start the meal, everybody comes, there's this complicated way you cross your hands, and everybody pulls the crackers together all at once. CorinneWow, that sounds so fun. VirginiaIt's always like herding cats. Like, is everyone ready to come to the table? Can we all hold the crackers? No one can ever remember how to move their hands. And then there are paper crowns inside and a joke, and sometimes little prizes and stuff. It's the tradition that I always felt like, as a kid, and as a British American child, made my Christmas feel special, because my American friends didn't have those. So I really love that my kids have that it's really fun. I think it has become a lot more popular here now. It used to be really hard to find them when I was a kid, and now there are tons of options. So that's probably my favorite holiday tradition. Food-wise, we always do roast lamb for Christmas dinner, which I love, and my mom makes all the cookies. And there are endless Christmas cookies that I love. I realized the other day, I think cookies are my favorite type of dessert. It's tied with brownies, but, I'm much more interested in a cookie than I am in a cake or candy situation. And so a holiday that's really celebrating many types of cookies, I just am like, yes please. CorinneI'm with you. I love cookies.VirginiaI also make a lot of really good pasta sauces this time of year, like the ones that you let simmer for a bunch of hours. It's just comfort food season. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterCorinneShould we do Butter? VirginiaYes, let's do some Butter. I have a pretty good Butter I think. I regularly update folks on what my 12 year old and I are watching for our mother/daughter bonding TV show time, and I have exciting news for the elder millennials, which is: We have begun our journey with Buffy the Vampire Slayer.CorinneI shall now admit that I have never watched.Virginia I had a feeling you might be one of the non-Buffy millennials.CorinneIt's very embarrassing. I don't know. VirginiaIt's okay. Jack has never watched it either.CorinneI don't know why I've never seen it, because it also feels like it's just a cultural reference point.VirginiaWell, and not to tell you your culture, but it's very big in queer culture?CorinneI was going to say. People are constantly like, you know, Buffy, and I'm like, no, I don't.VirginiaWell, it's a very big part of my culture, and it's the show my siblings and I bond over the most, so they're very excited that she's being inducted into it. And she wasn't feeling it for the first few episodes. For any parents starting it with a child of generation alpha or something: They are used to a higher production value. They are used to a crisper television experience. If you're coming from Wednesday and going to Buffy, you're going to be like, wow, the monsters are less scary here. But that's actually great because it also means it's more campy and less scary, which is good for a show we watch in the evening. And Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy, was canceled for being a toxic man. So we have to hold that together with it was also a show very much made by women, written by women, and starring women. So I canceled Joss Whedon and keep Buffy is how I'm navigating that one, and we'll be discussing it. But she's in now. She's hooked. We're in season two. It's great.CorinneWell, since you're recommending TV, I'm going to recommend TV, too. I'm going to recommend the show Pluribus, which has just come out on Apple TV. I have only watched three episodes. One of the reasons why I'm recommending it is because it takes place in Albuquerque, which is really fun for me to watch. And it's from the creator of Breaking Bad. So if you enjoyed that, you might enjoy this. It's, it is a little more like sci-fi, post-apocalyptic, but it's raising some interesting theoretical questions. And I feel like if you have enjoyed shows like Severance or The Good Place, you might like it. VirginiaOkay, that sounds really interesting. How's the violence level? Because Breaking Bad got too violent for me.CorinneSo far it's less than Breaking Bad, for sure. It is kind of like a post-apocalyptic thing. So the first episode involves a huge event, but, like, it's not a gory event. VirginiaOkay, that's good to know.CorinneWhereas I'm remembering the first episode of Breaking Bad is pretty gory, I think they're dissolving a person in a bathtub or something disgusting.VirginiaYeah, it starts out hot and by the final season, I was like, I can't, I'm done. I can't do it anymore. I also have a lower threshold than most people for violent content on TV. But that sounds great.This was a great episode! We want to hear your favorite food traditions. We want to hear all the things in the comments. Come chat with us. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your Indulgence Gospel — Thanksgiving Edition! We often skip an episode drop on this day, but given how high pressure Thanksgiving can be for food, bodies and people, we thought...maybe you need a little Indulgence Gospel, a little Butter, and a little distraction from whatever your holiday weekend entails?We've got you: A Helen Rosner-inspired fashion epiphany. Thoughts and feelings about Black Friday. A very good Corinne clothing rant.Our secret shame places. And more! You do need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month! Join Just Toast! Don't want an ongoing commitment? Click "buy for $4!" to listen to just this one. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode may contain affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 221 TranscriptVirginiaOkay friends, buckle up for some good rants. I think this is a nice little Thanksgiving gift, to have a little Burnt Toast in your ears before you deal with whatever this weekend is for you. I hope it's lovely. But it is not always lovely.CorinneShould we take a moment to give thanks for the Burnt Toast listeners?VirginiaObviously. I give thanks for them all the time! We are very grateful for the Burnt Toasties, and very grateful for everyone who made it over here, from Substack to Patreon. We're now about a month and a half into that transition. And we really appreciate you. CorinneEverything is going smoothly.VirginiaSo let's talk about Thanksgiving a little bit. I feel like this is the time of year where I start getting emails that are like, "I've gained weight and I have to see blah, blah, blah relatives who are going to say a shame-y thing about it." Or, "What do I do when I'm at the table and my mom won't stop talking about her diet?" Thanksgiving is such a fraught time because there's so much delicious food, and people who are so weird about the food. CorinneWhen I saw this on the agenda to discuss, I had my own personal panic, because I was like, Oh my God, am I even doing Thanksgiving this year? What is the plan? At this point in my life, I live far away from most of my family. On Thanksgiving, I'm usually stopping by a friend's house, maybe bringing something. So it's pretty low key, and it's been so long since I've actually had to deal with this. VirginiaSo you don't have to do the big extended family thing?CorinneNope. And I want to say: If you don't want to go to your family's house, you don't have to go. I think there is all this pressure to keep doing things the way we've always done them. But you can change the plan. And, you know, Thanksgiving is kind of an effed up holiday.VirginiaWhat with being rooted in genocide. That's always a tough one.CorinneSo if you want to change how things are going, you could stay home and make a personal pan of stuffing, which is possibly what I'm doing. Can't say yet.VirginiaTo be clear, we're not recording this on Thanksgiving Day. By the time you hear it Corinne will know what her plans are. Thanksgiving is not a holiday that I have a lot of emotional connection to, either. My mom is British, so it was less of a focus for her when I was growing up. I don't think the food is delicious all the time, it can be a little bland. I get that people really love their mashed potatoes, and I am not ever here to carb-shame. But that is not my carb of choice. CorinneI love the food. VirginiaI'm with Samin Nosrat, who's always like, "Can it be a little spicier? Can it be more flavorful? Can there be a little more going on here?" Thanksgiving can get a little soft and mushy. Not always. I make an excellent fresh cranberry relish that really zings it all up.But if the way you do Thanksgiving is to always to reopen a bunch of old wounds, or put yourself in front of the firing squad on body toxicity, maybe don't go. Or at least, figure out a plan going into it! Do you have a group chat you can check in with? Can you take your breaks by offering to run out for more ice, or walk the dog? Going to hang out with the kids is often helpful, too. The parents will appreciate that. And if you go be with the kids, then you aren't talking about the politics or whatever the adults are doing.CorinneAnd you can get out some of your rage through running around and screaming.VirginiaDefinitely, yeah. It's tricky, though. And if you're going through it this weekend, we we feel you.CorinneI also would just say, no need to stand on ceremony. If someone's doing something weird, just tell them they're being weird. VirginiaYou're very boundary setting today. I like it. You're very like, Don't go! Tell them they are being weird!CorinneI'm just feeling like we have enough bullshit to deal with right now. If someone is telling you about their diet, just walk away.VirginiaThis is not the conversation we need to be having. CorinneYeah, come on. There's enough hard stuff.VirginiaI will link to things I've written in the past to give more nuanced scripts, if you want that option. But I'm with Corinne. I think we twist ourselves into trying to come up with the perfect response when the reality is—the other person's shitty comment is creating labor for you. So you can just be unavailable for that labor.Alright, let's talk about Black Friday. How do you feel about Black Friday? Corinne is our newsletter universe's resident shopping expert.CorinneI have such mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I love a sale. I feel true excitement receiving all the discount codes. On the other hand, do I need anything? No. On the other hand, will I participate? It seems hard to avoid, you know? VirginiaDo you try to make a list ahead of time? I often try to have a little note on my phone of big ticket items I've been thinking about. So I'll check for a good sale price on these.CorinneThat's smart. I have not done that in the past and maybe I should. I think in the past, a lot of my strategy has been to buy things that I restock. So last year on Black Friday, I bought a ton of my electrolyte drink tablets.VirginiaSure because that's a line item in your budget. Get a good deal if you can.CorinneAnd I think it could be a good time to buy electronics or whatever. Maybe I'll think about making a list. I also think it's a nice time to continue avoiding big box stuff, and choose to buy something from a smaller, local store, which maybe doesn't have the same extreme discount, but probably could really use the business.VirginiaBack when I always sent out holiday photo cards, I would always order those on Black Friday, usually from Minted or Artifact Uprising. All the photo sites have really good sales, so I would lock that in, and then it would mean they would come early enough that I could actually get them in the mail. So they would reach people by Christmas.CorinneWow, that's really smart. VirginiaIt's also a lot of a lot of executive function. And last year I didn't do photo cards, and I felt quite liberated. But also any photo holiday gifts, like, if I'm going to make albums, or get pictures of the kids printed for grandparent gifts, I will take advantage of the sale for that. That's the main thing I usually think to do. And if I've been thinking about a new item of furniture or a new appliance or something, if I start thinking about that in September, October, I'm like, oh, let me sit on that and see what the Black Friday sale is. I never do any in-person shopping for Black Friday, because I can't do crowds. I’m exclusively talking about online.CorinneWhen I used to do Thanksgiving with my family, we did sometimes go to Target or another place. It was very fun to be at Target, which is not normally open at midnight.VirginiaI haven't done that since probably, like, the 90s.  And I don't think I ever did the midnight thing!Corinneit was just kind of a weird, fun, post-eating a lot of food thing, I think. VirginiaI get it! CorinneOne year we bought my mom an iPad, and that was really exciting. VirginiaOh, that's sweet. Speaking of Target, how are all your boycotts going? We haven't checked in about our boycott efforts in a long time.CorinneI was wondering about yours too. My Amazon Prime just expired in September, and I have continued to mostly not shop there. There have been a couple of things. When I was at my mom's, I needed a light bulb that I couldn't find anywhere else online, that I ordered from Amazon. And I did watch The Summer I Turned Pretty on Prime Video. Other than that, I've been avoiding it, and it's been fine. I do have a moment of annoyance sometimes. VirginiaIt creates a little more friction.CorinneI think Target has been a little harder for me, just in terms of clothes. I really miss even just browsing the Target clothes. VirginiaOld Navy is not quite the same. CorinneIt just sometimes feels like not enough variety. I want to be able to look somewhere else. I'm curious: Are people still boycotting Target, or are people still calling for that boycott? I'm not sure.VirginiaI know. I kind of keep hoping someone ends it. because I think their sales did really go down. I've seen some reports. (Here, here and here—which talks about a boycott of Target, Amazon and Home Depot for Black Friday!) So I'm like, did we do it?I will confess to one Target lapse. Okay, two Target lapses. In October, I had the stressful week of preparing for a child's birthday and also preparing to help run our school's Book Fair week, which is a very big, complicated event. And I needed to source party decorations for the child and tablecloths for the book fair. And time was what it was. So Target was how I had to get those things done. I wish I had made other choices, but in the time I had available, with the budget that we had for these things, it is what it was. So that was my one big Target lapse, and I am trying not to get sucked back in.But in terms of my own personal struggles with consumerism, I think it is kind of a good one for me not to have available. I was thinking about my house and how many fast home items I bought at Target over the years— like throw pillows or, oh, I need this candle holder. And I haven't been buying that stuff so much this year, and I don't miss it at all. My house is still cute. It's all fine. I've been going outside the box a little more if I need a home item. So I think that's been good for me to have to step back from.CorinneDamn. That's really powerful. VirginiaAgain, if someone tells us the boycott is over, fully expect to see me with a shopping cart of Hearth & Home throw pillows. Expect a relapse.CorinneOh God. VirginiaAlright, you were telling me before we started recording that you have recently had big feelings about driving pants versus standing up pants. Please explain.CorinneI know this is a thing. People are always like, "These are standing pants, but they're not comfortable to sit in." But I wore Old Navy jeans on my very extended road trip where I'm driving nine hours a day for four days. And I was like, you know, these jeans are pretty comfortable for driving. But then when I would get out at a rest stop, the same jeans were not staying up. I was struggling. VirginiaI do think sometimes sitting in clothes stretches them out of shape for standing.CorinneYes. This is actually why elastic in jeans is so useful. And the jeans that I'm wearing aren't 100% cotton, but I think they're like 98% or something. And I could probably use a little more elastic in these.VirginiaInteresting. CorinneBut also: Is this just a reality of being fat? Where you need separate pants for standing and sitting?VirginiaDo you think it's fatness, or do you think it's just, like... fabric?CorinneI do think when you sit down, your body changes shape. So how do you have clothes that accommodate your body like being different shapes at different times?VirginiaThin people are different shapes when they stand and sit, too.CorinneBut I think they have less dramatic shifts. The bell curve is less or whatever.VirginiaListeners: If you are driving in pants right now, or standing in pants right now, please change positions and tell us how you change shape. CorinneIt's all very relevant for a holiday in which we eat a lot of food, and perhaps change shape.VirginiaWe do need our stretchy pants. And I hear you on this. I often think, "I want to wear those pants later tonight and have them look good, so I can't sit in them all day at work, because they'll get baggy." And then I think, "What a high maintenance item of clothing you are, pants." Why do pants need such coddling from me? So I'm more on the side of, fabric is bad. But I suppose you're right. As fat people, we might be pushing our clothes more. So I think what I'm hearing is those jeans could not thrive in the fast-paced environment you required of them. And that feels like a them problem.CorinneSo is the answer just sweatpants?VirginiaIt usually is. It's what I'm wearing right now. It's what I'm wearing most days. I did just pull out an old pair of Universal Standard the Moro Ponte pant. You remember when I was so into those pants a few years ago?CorinneYes. The Ponti-Ponte.VirginiaAnd I didn't wear them at all last year! I had no interest in them for some reason, and I just pulled them back out, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to wear these. These are good, stretchy, cute looking pants.Corinne That's cool. That's great. VirginiaSo they're back in rotation. But the knees do bag out if I sit in them all day. CorinneSo annoying. VirginiaPants, be better. I mean, that's sort of the mantra of this podcast. Okay, I have another fashion-related matter for us to get into. I have had a real epiphany about what we even mean when we say fashion.And I would like you to look now to your texts for some screenshots I sent you. Helen Rosner is the source material. She posted this in her stories recently, and so we're giving her full credit for this. Because it's really resonating.CorinneYes, I've had this rant for a while about the styling thing, where people are styling this dress, and then they just put on more layers. And I'm like, yeah, that's not realistic. I'm hot. I don't want to style my t-shirt and shorts by adding a sweater. VirginiaAnd it made me realize, a lot of times I struggle with feeling like I've put together "an outfit," and it's because I know I'm going to end up just wearing the tank top, or whatever the base layer of it is. And that's not going to feel like enough of an outfit.CorinneAnd so then how do we style it? I was thinking about this this summer, because of my wedding outfit, which was basically a t-shirt and shorts with a blazer. And I was like, I know at some point I'm taking this blazer off. VirginiaAnd now I'm just in a t-shirt and shorts. But you did have cute pink socks!CorinneYes. I think the answer is socks. Having cute socks. So it's still felt styled, it still felt thoughtful. And you're not going to take your socks off. But if you're wearing pants, can people see your socks? So I think the answer is accessories. I want to think more about what other accessories would be good.VirginiaWell, and I think a corollary to this conversation is Zoom Fashion. Not for our podcast recording, where I'm literally wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt, but when I'm gonna do a Zoom for someone else's podcast or a Patreon meeting or something. And I'm like, "I need to look polished and they can't tell I'm wearing nice pants." It's really hard to get the outfit to convey much when people only see your shoulders. And so then what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to have a lot of fancy blouses for Zooming purposes? That seems weird.CorinneJewelry. You're wearing a necklace right now with a sweatshirt, and it does look like an outfit.VirginiaI am wearing a necklace with a sweatshirt. I always wear this necklace. But yes, that's true.CorinneAlso, glasses. VirginiaThat is true. Glasses, like socks, are unlikely to come off. So that does help.Helen posted some other Stories where she says, “I feel too much of fashion exists only to be photographed on the sidewalk in Nolita. Like, where's the body? Where is life?”. And she talks about how fashion content is all sort of predicated on this lifestyle fantasy of running errands where you're going to be dressed cute to go to a bakery and a bookstore and maybe an art museum. And when is that ever our lives?CorinneTotally. I know. And if I'm having a day where I'm running errands, I'm wearing sweatpants.VirginiaYou need your standing up pants!CorinneThey need to stay up because my wallet is going to be shoved in one pocket, my phone in the other, and that's like two pounds.VirginiaShe says, "The dream of being out and about, browsing in a record store, picking up a paper sleeve of flowers, grabbing a flat white, the dream of engaging in inessential commerce in a walkable city." Like that is just not my life.CorinneAnd like, in a walkable city yet wearing heels or something that you could actually never walk in. Well all of this is why Big Undies exists.VirginiaIt really is. I am now articulating something you are always writing about.To take it one layer further, I think a lot of times this is bound up in when we are feeling aspirational about thinness. I've written about how for me, thinness is sort of bound up with looking like a character in a Nancy Meyers movie. I'm in a great sweater and jeans that do fit both standing and sitting. I'm walking barefoot on the beach. And fashion is just this whole aspirational lifestyle scam, where if you achieve a certain aesthetic you believe that you're going to have the life that matches it. As opposed to saying: What does my life actually involve, and what are the clothes I need to support that actual life? CorinneI don't really have anything to add to that. But I did just want to say that Helen mentions the styling trick of belting a coat. Like, using a regular belt over your trench coat or whatever. How many times have you seen that? And how freaking annoying would that be in real life? Like, you walk into the restaurant, take off your coat, and now you have a belt that you have to carry?VirginiaIt feels like you're undressing in public! Taking off your belt is what you do when you're about to go to the bathroom. So strange. That's very intimate to do in public space. CorinneBut people are like, "Have a baggy coat? Just add a belt!"VirginiaNo. I've never in my life done that. CorinneNever going to. Never would. VirginiaA lot of fashion is just very silly. Which we knew! I just appreciated how Helen distilled it. And I feel like it's useful for me to remember this when I'm going through my little social anxiety spirals about what to wear to things. Because that's often me trying to aspire to a lifestyle rather than dress the body I have and the life I have.CorinneYeah, and think about how much more you're able to actually have conversations and engage in what's happening if you're comfortable.This is a good reminder for Thanksgiving. If you're seeing people you haven't seen in a while.VirginiaAnd if you felt like you had to put a lot of effort into a holiday outfit, which can be a real thing. I mean, related, we were talking in the Burnt Toast chat recently about the pressure of wedding guests dressing. Anytime you have a more formal event, the stress of that can be so much. And I think it's the same thing, because it's requiring you to get out of your comfort zone, and then also to maybe physically wear something that's not comfortable. And it's like, what are we trying to do here?CorinneTotally.VirginiaWell in better fashion news, I want to share that I did just finally find a pair of tall, wide calf boots that fit my calves after doing a significant amount of research. But in not good news, I would like to report that the wide calf boot market is a complete and total sham. Like, it doesn't exist. The brands that claim to do wide calf boots--I am talking about Frye boots, I am talking about Inez, I'm talking about Nordstrom, DSW, all these shoe sites. I went through every one, looking at their boot measurements. And they consider a wide calf boot to be 16.5" inch circumference. CorinneYeah, that's not big enough. VirginiaThat is a straight-size leg! That is not a plus size leg. I am a fat person who doesn't even carry my weight in my legs. That's not the fattest part of me, and the boots that ended up fitting were a Lucky Brand boot that are labeled "extra wide" to have an 18 inch circumference. My calves are like, 17. One is just below 17, and one is just over 17. Also, PS, nobody's calves are the same size. So that was also fun to learn. I went down a real rabbit hole about this. CorinneI think mine are, like, 20?VirginiaWhen I say Lucky's extra wide calf—that's going to fit someone with, like, frankly, a Mid-Sized Queen-size calf.CorinneIf they're tall, how are you wearing them? You're tucking your jeans in or?VirginiaI could tuck jeans in with these. I had given up on that fantasy. And I still don't know that I will do that, because I don't know that I like that look that much for me personally. But I really just wanted them to wear with tights, which would not add a lot of weight. These are actually slightly wider than my calf, so there's room for a sock or something. But mostly, if you wanted room for a sock, forget it. It doesn't exist.CorinneDo they zip up the side?VirginiaThese are pull on. They're just wide enough that I can pull them on. But Lucky makes a wide and an extra wide calf. So go extra wide. The wide calf was like 17 inches. And the thing is, you can't get your exact circumference. If my calf is 17 inches, a 17 inch boot is not going to fit. There's definitely no room for a socks. You need a little give. I knew it would be bad, but I didn't realize it would be this stupidly bad. Knee high boots are really marketed, I would say, to people size 12 and below.CorinneI've heard of people taking boots to the cobbler and having them put in a little elastic insert.VirginiaLike a little gusset type thing.Corinne But also, do we want to do that work? Who has the time?VirginiaWhy is this my new part time job? I have bought boots from Adelante, which is a pricey boot company, but they do custom, so you send them your measurements.CorinneI heard that they are maybe going out of business, but...VirginiaWhen I checked for the particular this boot shopping season, they had an eight week ship time, and I did not have eight weeks to wait on this boot purchase. I needed it sooner, so that wasn't going to work for me. They also only have one tall boot style, which I already own. So I was like, well, that’s not quite what I'm looking for. I was looking something different.CorinneYeah, this is getting into my custom clothing rant. VirginiaYes, yes, please give us that rant. CorinneI've seen a lot of people suggesting brands that make up to like, XYZ size and then custom beyond that. And most of these are brands I haven't tried. So I can't speak universally. And there are some brands that I really like that do this, and so presumably they do a good job. However, I did recently order something custom, and this was from just a very small, one person type of situation. I sent them my measurements, and they made something according to the measurements. And it just didn't fit, right. I got it, and I was like, "I hate this." And I just feel like the suggestion of just wanting fat people to always order custom stuff is... Look, I'm glad the option exists. But it's not always an option. Sometimes you don't have the time. And why should I be ordering custom stuff that then if it doesn't fit I'm in this awkward situation where something has been made, supposedly to my measurements, but I can't use it? VirginiaIs that even returnable? CorinneYeah, probably not. VirginiaBecause if they made it just for you, they can't resell it, right? CorinneIf they're offering custom sizes. It's not going to be fit-tested. They're creating a new pattern, and they don't really know how it's going to work on your body until you put it on.VirginiaSo they'd need you to come in and have it fit to your actual body, not based on a set of numbers, right? CorinneAnd then you're just basically a guinea pig. It iss a good option to have sometimes. It's just not realistic in so many situations. And yeah, the wait time. It's like, you want me to order custom boots that I'm not going to get for two months, at which time winter will be over.VirginiaThis is reminding me, when we were doing Jeans Science, there was a brand, which I'm not going to name because they were very unhappy with me when I talked about this on Instagram. But there was a brand that you sent your measurements to—and their jeans were just nowhere close to fitting my body. Like, I literally wore them for five minutes, and they sagged so much I stepped right out of the pants. They just fell off my body. And she was like, "I don't understand. You sent us your measurements. They should fit."Corinne Like it's your fault somehow. VirginiaI double-checked my measurements. I'm sure I measured myself right, and they don't fit. And I think it's exactly what you're saying. People are not flat. We're not two dimensional. Our bodies change shape when we sit and stand. Just cutting clothes based off a few numbers is not going to work. CorinneRight. Just because you can make a shirt that fits 30 inches pit to pit doesn't mean it will be the right length when I raise up my arm. We're moving around in the world.VirginiaWe're living in our bodies. And the pants need to both sit and stand, drive and walk. We really we need clothes that can do multiple things. I know people who wear petites feel this, too. People are always like, "just get it hemmed!" And that's so much extra labor to take something into the tailor, wait the two or three weeks while they get it hemmed, go back and get it. And then, does it work? Plus not everything can just be hemmed.CorinneSometimes I just don't have the capacity to message someone, "Could you possibly make this for me in a bigger size?" It's just a lot of extra effort, and I'm really annoyed at the suggestion that that is what I should be doing to be shopping in the right way.VirginiaAnd for any straight-sized person listening: Imagine if you wanted to buy something from The Gap, who I'm eternally mad at for not making plus sizes. And they didn't have your size, but they promise they'll make it for you. And so instead of being able to just walk into The Gap and buy a shirt, you have to email them, and wait for a response, and send your measurements, and get out a tape measure, and measure yourself, and make sure it's accurate. And send out that information, and then wait for the thing to arrive, and then it still doesn't. Like, I mean. Straight size people would never!CorinneI can get behind a sort of luxury Made-to-Order thing once in a while, but sometimes you just need a sweater.VirginiaYou just need the thing to fit. Custom cannot be the solution to fashions, lack of size inclusivity. That cannot be the answer. People would not be able to afford clothes and it just isn't sustainable or scale-able.CorinneI think the last thing we were going to talk about was our secret shame spots. VirginiaOh yes, this is a fun one to end on. It started because, in preparation for this episode, I was trying to find something on my desktop of my computer, and I said to Corinne, "I know I look like a person who has my shit together, but if you were to see the desktop of my computer or the inside of my car, you would know my truth."CorinneAnd and I was like, "Oh yeah, my desktop is also like that." I would say my car is not.But you know what one that is crazy for me, is my email inbox. Do you know how many unread messages I have? And I went through this, maybe, like six months ago. I went through, archived everything, started from scratch. I have 16,000 unread messages.VirginiaAnd this is your main email? This is your Gmail?CorinneThis is why people have multiple emails. But at this point it's like, how do I even go back? Like, I can't start fresh.VirginiaWell, I don't know. Because I'm now paying $5 a month for storage for my Yahoo address because it has so many emails in there. But I don't want to have to go in and delete because I'd have to delete thousands of emails. And I only use that email for signing up for stuff. I could just delete the whole thing, but I couldn't figure out how to do that because, of course, Yahoo is far more interested in me paying $5 a month for storage. And so I was like, fine, I'll do this. BBut my Gmail, I keep pretty on top of, because that's my has to be functional email. That said, I also do think I've actually been trying to increase my tolerance for a little more inbox chaos there. Because I think sometimes I can get very perfectionist about the end of the week, trying to clear out to Inbox Zero. I've been a longtime Inbox Zero person, and it's good for me to be like, "Nothing falls apart if I don't answer every email in here," or at least go through and process every email. I think that's how I feel about the desktop and the car too. It's good to have identified areas in your life where you can just be like, "Yeah, that's not where I have it together."Corinne I mean, it's not possible to have everything together all the time. VirginiaAnd I'm not even interested in trying. There are other parts of my life where I care. My house is pretty tidy because I am pretty compulsive about tidying my house. Daily bed maker here. I love a made bed. CorinneWell, can't say the same for myself. But, aspirational.VirginiaI want to hear what other people's secret shame spots are. They don't even have to be shames! Just your places where you're like, "I don't try here." What are your don't try areas? I think that's fun to think about. Especially as we launch into a busy time where we all need areas we don't try too hard in. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginiaOkay, I'm gonna do my new red Adidas, which Corinne influenced me to buy. By which I mean she said, "I found these Adidas, and they are very Virginia-coded, and you should buy them." And I added to cart before she finished that sentence. They are a slight platform. They are bright red with purple stripes and a kind of neon red trim detail. They are super cute and I love them! And you were correct to tell me to purchase them.CorinneHow's the fit?VirginiaThey are so comfy. And I would say, run a smidge big. I go back and forth between a size 7-7.5 And I don't ever want sneakers to feel too tight, because you want to be able to wear socks with them. So I got the 7.5s, and they're roomy—like maybe I could have done the 7. There's definitely room for a sock. Unlike tall boots. I will say — I am still working up my nerve to style them, which is sort of interesting. I mean, I'm wearing them, but a couple things I've put them on with, and then I've been like, "Do I have clown feet?" They're very red. And I love red shoes. I'm surprised at my reaction. They're so cute. I'm wearing them, don't worry.CorinneI feel like they’d be great with jeans.VirginiaYes, here's what is tricky. With a wide leg jean, the jean covers so much of the shoe, you lose some of the cuteness, and then you just see the brown rubber of the platform sole, and that's less cute to me. So if I had a note for Adidas, it might be that the platform sole doesn't need to be brown. It could have also been red, and then I think I'd like them even more. I think it's just that thing where you're like, you have a new thing and it feels like such a statement. See all previous conversations. Virginia, just wear the shoes. CorinneThat's funny. VirginiaThey're pretty adorable. But yeah, what are you thinking? Are you making an Adidas purchase? This is not sponsored by Adidas, by the way.CorinneI have just regular Adidas Sambas that I actually love, and wear a lot, and are kind of like maybe at the approaching the end of their lifetime. So I want to get another pair. I think that I might be sized out of the cute platform ones, because I typically need an 11.5. But there is a men's version that's not quite the same, but very similar, and obviously doesn't come in as fun colors, but I might try those. There are some off-white and navy ones that I thought looked good.VirginiaI mean, I will say the platform is the least interesting thing about them to me. I think the colors are really fun. So if they could just do better colors! CorinneSometimes they have good colors. I feel like you just have to check back. Okay, my Butter is a food product, which I discovered on my road trip. Where was I? I don't know. I was somewhere, and I saw these little delicious-looking candy bars, and I bought one. And now I'm obsessed, and want to order boxes and boxes of them to my house. The brand is Mayana Chocolate. I think the one I liked was, I think it was "coconutty bar," or it was something with coconut in it. But they're really chubby. They're chunky, so they're very satisfying to eat. VirginiaThat sounds yummy.Corinne And now I am wishing I had one with me. So if you see them in a store near you, buy one or stock up. And send me some.VirginiaWell, this was fun. I hope everyone's driving safely and or cooking efficiently. And that you have lovely holiday meals, and nobody says weird things about bodies to you. And we'll see you back here next week! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Debra Benfield, RDN.Deb is a registered dietitian/nutritionist with 40 years of experience helping people heal their relationship with food, movement and their bodies. Her work sits at the intersection of anti-ageism, body liberation and trauma-informed care, offering a radically compassionate alternative to diet and wellness culture—especially for those in midlife and beyond. After turning 60, Deb began questioning the dominant narratives around aging, vitality and beauty, and quickly realized the majority of resources still centered weight loss and youthful appearance as the ultimate goals. In response, she created what she couldn't find: A framework for nourishing the body that honors body respect, prioritizes liberation and embraces the full spectrum of aging. Deb is the author of the beautiful new book Unapologetic Aging: How to Mend and Nourish Your Relationship with Your Body.  Deb came on the podcast back in 2023 and we had what was really the first, or certainly one of the first, conversations we've had on Burnt Toast about the intersection of ageism and anti-fat bias. That discussion helped lay the foundation for how we're continuing to talk about those issues. Deb is someone I always turn to for resources and wisdom as we're navigating those conversations here. I am so thrilled to have Deb back on the podcast today, to talk about her new book, how diet culture has hijacked the menopause discourse, and why peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are actually giving you all the protein you need.  Unapologetic Aging comes out on December 16, so now is the perfect time to pre-order it as a holiday gift for yourself, your mom, or anyone you know in midlife and beyond! And don't forget that if you've bought Fat Talk from Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off your purchase of Unapologetic Aging there too — just use the code FATTALK at checkout.And if you value this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 220 TranscriptVirginiaWe are here to talk about your new book, Unapologetic Aging, which comes out on December 16. I loved the book. I think it's such a valuable contribution to this whole conversation. It's really a guide to living well in midlife and beyond without, as you put it, "the whole diet and wellness mess." It's also a very powerful reckoning with how our ageism and fatphobia prevent us from doing the things we really want to do at this time. DebI'm trying to create some awareness of our internalized ageism, because I think it goes unnoticed. If anybody is listening to your podcast, my hope is that they've already done quite a bit of work looking at their anti-fat bias. So then it's about looking at where those two meet, as you notice changes in your body. So I created a book that helps you with your awareness and with how you could look at making choices to support yourself and mending some of the body stories you carry about your aging and about changes. That includes being in a larger body, and some pieces around body image and intimacy. Body liberation as you age is such an important legacy for the generations to come. VirginiaI want to start with something I underlined right in the introduction. You wrote that we so often hear “You haven't aged a bit!” And this is considered a grand compliment, right? But you're immediately questioning why. Unpack that for us.DebAgain, hoping that your audience is already aware of how “you look great,” if you lost weight is a problematic thing for someone to hear. It's very similar. It's a very parallel compliment in that you just calcify this belief that looking older is bad and looking younger is always better. That very definite binary that we impose upon ourselves. It is very much like looking thinner is always a victory, and looking larger must mean you're failing in life. VirginiaIt's so interesting when you step back from it. Why do we not want to look like we've been living? Why would I want to look like a younger, less accomplished, less mature person? Not to criticize my younger self—but why wouldn't we want to own the aging that we've done, and the living that we've done? DebWe've just internalized all of this fear. And I get it. I understand that to pass as younger gives you more social collateral, and theoretically you lose relevance in our very ageist culture. So I get it. It's disempowering to say the very least. And it's a perpetual fight. I'm not a fan of fighting my body overall. And I think that's what's at the center of my book: What happens when you stop fighting, and instead befriend, and care for, and lean into the connection and relationship you can have with your body? How beautiful it is, especially at this time in life. There's so much liberation there that I'm very attracted to that for myself and anybody that wants to talk to me about it.Join Burnt Toast! VirginiaI have a kind of funny story to confess. As I was reading your book, a moment came up where I had to recognize, oh, this is my own internalized ageism showing up. The backstory is my boyfriend, Jack is nine years younger than me. So we have an age difference. And he was talking about a friend, and he referred to her as "an older woman." And I realized the person he was talking about was the same age as me, and I immediately was like, "What do you mean older woman? Why are we using the phrase older woman?" And he just looks at me and he's like, "Babe, it's a good thing. That's a neutral description. It's a neutral term." And I was like, oh, I need to reclaim "older" or "old," just like I've reclaimed fat. So now our joke is, if you say older women, you say, "parentheses complimentary," to clarify that it's meant as a good thing. DebWe're just socialized to think “older” is negative.VirginiaObviously you shouldn't even need that parentheses!DebWell, we all do. I do it too. We all do. It was just so deeply, deeply ingrained, just like all the stuff around anti-fat bias.VirginiaI remember last time we talked about language when you were on the podcast. And we were talking about how we like “elder,” but there are other terms that do feel more negatively imbued. So it's not necessarily that you have to reclaim every term around aging, but it is worth looking at why is this term hitting you this way?DebAnd we may be different in the way things land with us, too. I mean, clearly with you and Jack. VirginiaYeah, totally. I was like, Okay, called out for my own ageism. So something you write about quite a few places in the book is this phenomenon of what you call “super agers," which we see constantly on social media. They're always showing up on Good Morning America. Super agers are folks who are over 70 or 80 and still windsurfing or doing yoga or  rock climbing. It's pretty much always some incredible physical feat that someone's doing in their later years. And we have such a tendency to celebrate that, but you're very clear that that's not necessarily a straightforward celebration of aging.DebWhen I was thinking about this, I was also watching the New York City Marathon. And all the celebrations tended to be focused on people with disabilities, older ages. It was very interesting to me. And larger bodies! All of them are grouped together as celebrations because they pushed through some sort of social limitation to accomplish this thing. And again, as always, there is some truth in that. I do have respect for people that work hard to accomplish things. And aging is fascinating in that we become more unique and heterogeneous the older we become. The longer we live, the more experiences we have, the more  possible disease diagnosis and treatments, medications. I mean, so many things happen with each passing year. We're very unique. There are just as many ways to age as there are to live your life. I just want to put forward the fact that you don't have to be in a super human category to be aging well or successfully. It's not unlike when you say “Good Fatty." You're a “Good Fatty," if you work out right, and if you work really hard on your body and being healthy. All the healthism that starts to rise up. So it's very similar with pushing yourself despite your age.VirginiaThere are two layers to it. There's this thing where it's actually quite patronizing to the person doing the activity. Like, oh, good for you. You're doing this despite all the odds. Which you wouldn't say to a thin, able-bodied 25-year-old running a marathon. Then it's, wow, you've worked hard and have skills and experience. And then also it's contributing to this artificially high standard of what we need to aspire to. So now it's not enough to just try to  preserve my mobility as I get older. I also need to be able to do a headstand.DebThe hard part is that, yeah, I do want to celebrate these accomplishments. Of course. I think that's amazing. I saw something about this woman who beat the world record and how long she could hold a plank. And she was about 10 years younger than me, so I immediately got on the floor, of course, to see what I could do. And there are so many little things on social media about tests of your capacity as you age. If you can get up from the floor in a certain way. If you can put on your socks and shoes without sitting down. And what happens, of course, is we judge ourselves, we compare ourselves. And I don't know how helpful that is. I mean, if it motivates you to see if you can shift and change some of your habits, to see if maybe you could work on balance, maybe that's uesful. It's very important to have healthy feet, for example, but to what end? That's what happens for a lot of people. It's like, hell no, I can't do that. I can't do this so why try? A lot of the research on ageism shows that this narrative about decline and fear mongering does not do us any favors when we believe those negative story lines. Fear doesn't motivate us. It makes us feel like we're doomed. And there's actual data showing that we live longer with a much more positive mindset around what it's like to be in an older body. VirginiaIt's making me think of how much we narrow the definition of health when we do this. When we say, Can you get up off the floor without using your hands? That is a sign of how healthy you are. Well, I can't do that every day. That's not something that's available to my body every day now. On the other hand, I recently increased how much weight I'm lifting when I strength train. I can lift a much heavier weight than I could when I was younger and could get up off the floor more easily. And so it's kind of a wash to me, like, which is healthier? And that's setting aside the aging discourse around strength training —we'll get there. I just mean, there are so many different facets of health. And those two examples are just talking about physicality. That's before we get to mental health, or all of the other ways we can measure health. And I just think it's so interesting that we constantly narrow how we define health and how we're grading it.DebWe're so influenced by these “longevity bros.” We're just so, so inundated by those types of messages, especially on social media and podcasts, that it totally narrows our definition of beauty, our definition of  what it is to be well and to live well. One of the things that we need to do at midlife—and I think midlife invites this when you're staying in touch with yourself— is to embrace a reflective period. It's like, okay, I clearly have less time in front of me. What are my values? How do I want to sail the ship? That is something that happens in midlife, and I think it's very important to clarify how you want to spend your time and energy now. And for some people, it is getting up off the floor without using their hands. For a lot of people, not so much. And that's okay.Support our workVirginiaThey are morally neutral activities.Another phrase I underlined in the book, because as soon as you wrote it, I said, Oh God, I'm hearing that everywhere, is people saying, "Well what I've always done isn't working anymore." They're usually referring to how they're eating or how they're moving their body. Like, I always used to do X, Y and Z, and now it's not working anymore. You have such a smart reframe for this. Because was it ever working? DebYes, what do you mean by "working?" Working to fit your body into a certain size and shape, or maybe functionality? Why are we holding onto that? I don't think that serves us very well, because our bodies are supposed to change. I talk a lot about this metaphor of the monkey bars, that in order to move down the monkey bars, you have to let go of one to move to actually move forward. If you cling and grasp, you will stay, and I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in continuing to move forward, whatever that looks like. To evolve and change and become is the beauty of midlife and beyond. That's the opportunity, that's the emergence that is available to us. So this focus on holding on to what's been working, as in, keeping ourselves in the same size dress, or whatever the story is, that's another one of those, like, I can still wear the dress I wore when I went to prom in high school.VirginiaThat's a big achievement. Staying your high school size forever.DebI don't think it's serving us.VirginiaIt's really not. It's really a way of staying stuck, as opposed to letting yourself change. When we fight change, we make it so much harder on ourselves.DebBut the social conversation is maintained. Maintaining that freeze frame--it doesn't make any sense to me. It just doesn't make sense. But I see it and hear it, and people spend a lot of money on it.VirginiaDo you think that wanting to freeze frame is also behind so much of the menopause discourse right now? DebAbsolutely. What I hear in the menopause space is fear mongering about change. And that's getting more and more extreme, in my mind. We are talking to each other right after you've probably seen the very viral conversation about how in menopause, your brain eats itself. Thankfully, there has a lot of pushback on that by people I respect, because there's absolutely no data. It was a rodent study, and the rodents died soon after menopause. So clearly their menopause is not the same as human menopause. But the fear mongering gets people. It just hooks you and makes you feel like you should do whatever this is being sold. But the research does show that our brains change in very interesting ways. As we get older, our brains have more capacity for being flexible and adapting. So that's a beautiful thing. I like celebrating the fact that we find ways to continue to live our lives as fully as we would like to, and age the way we want to age, without all this pressure and fear. Fear, in and of itself, is harmful for your brain, by the way. VirginiaWith the menopause discourse being so loud right now, especially on social media, it feels like all of diet culture is boiling down to two things that we are supposed to do as much as possible: Eat all the protein all the time, and strength train constantly in our weighted vests. The book, I want to be clear, is so much more than that. You have so many great tools, journaling prompts, strategies to help people do this really hard work of figuring out how they want to relate to their bodies and take care of themselves in this life stage. But I do want to get you to give us your hot takes and reframes on protein and strength training, because those are the two that we get the most questions about by far.DebAs most things in this arena, there is some truth. There's a kernel of truth. It's just gone too far. It's gotten too extreme. My preference is to really honor the unique person and their needs, and I also prioritize mental health. If you are a person who has had any history of disordered eating, chronic dieting, obsessive thoughts, anxiety, then the fear mongering is going to be very harmful for you. And triggering. There is research that shows there's an increase in relapse and development of new eating disorders [at this age]. Obsessing over numbers like protein grams is harmful. I don't do it. I don't recommend it for anybody. I think understanding where protein is in our food is smart. You probably already know that. And making choices where you include some protein most of the time is helpful. You don't have to do it every single time you eat. But that is kind of how things naturally happen anyway, without a lot of effort. Unless you're a person who doesn't like protein-containing foods at all—and that can be true—then it may require more effort on your part. My favorite example is peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I just love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches or peanut butter in anything. I feel like my body goes “thank you” every single time I give myself that. It works. And I've heard that from many clients, too. Pleasure centers light up. You get carbohydrates, fat and protein. It's such a great combo. It's a beautiful food choice, and it lasts forever. You don't have to keep it in the fridge. Another example is a charcuterie board, where you have some cheese, you have some ham if you eat meat. There tends to be a little bit of protein along with the carbohydrate and fat, naturally. So you don't really have to get down in the numbers. I encourage you to pay attention and make choices that include protein. But I think it's completely unnecessary to count the grams of protein.VirginiaI love that the takeaway is eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Yes, done, sold. DebAnybody listening to this and has ever worked with me is probably laughing really hard right now, like, there she goes again. Peanut butter and jelly is my solution to all the things. VirginiaIt's one of the most perfect foods! I had a phase where one of my kids basically lived on Uncrustables, and I was like, no notes. It made packing lunches so easy. We could always have them with us. It was delightful. Join Burnt Toast! DebOkay, strength training.VirginiaLet's do it. DebHere's the thing that I want people to hear me say: No matter what you do, you lose muscle mass. It's not like doing all the things it's going to stop that, because it doesn't. So that's a fact. That's an opportunity for acceptance that your body softens. There's something about that that I find very inviting. I love that my body is softening. I really, truly do. I'm attracted to the softness that's available to me that didn't used to be. I'm naturally kind of like-I don't know if anybody ever watched Popeye? Popeye's girlfriend's name was Olive Oyl, and that was my nickname when I was a kid, because I was just long and lean. So softening is exciting for me. I've never really had this softness, so I think it's sweet. And there's a softening that I'm attracted to around taking the edges off of all of our anxiety and our preoccupation with being perfect. I have a lot of positive associations with softening. There are also some health protective aspects of having more storage space. That's what body fat is. You will be safer when the next virus comes around. We're in that time of the year where we're all going to get this and that virus. So you have more storage and your bones are a little bit more protected. Weighted vests... well that's a huge conversation. VirginiaAs a fat person, I'm already wearing my weighted vest at all times.DebIt's just anti-fat bias that you would need to be as lean as possible and then strap on some extra weight. I'm sorry. It makes me laugh every time I think about it. I'm sorry if people see me laugh when I see them without walking and they are wearing their weighted vests. I'm just entertained. VirginiaAlso, caveat listeners: If any of you are like, no, I just love my weighted vest, we're not taking it away from you!DebI'm not judging you if you're doing it. I totally get that you're just trying to do the right thing for yourself all the time. We all are. It's just, I'm not falling for that one. Weighted vests are on my “I'm not falling for it” list. But yes, we do need to do things that include bearing your body's weight and extra, if that's possible, and of course, the data supporting heavier weight is there—if that's interesting to you, if that's accessible to you. So many women contact me and say, I just feel like I'm not doing it right, because I just can't make myself do heavy lifting. And that's okay, too. Making yourself spend time doing something you hate doesn't feel in my mind like the thing you want to do with this precious part of your life. Because it's more and more precious. I'm in that category. Maybe I'll get to a place that I want to. I'm sure it feels good to feel yourself be powerful and strong. Yes, I get that. I'm a yogi. I love doing yoga poses where I hold my body weight. And I'm also a single mom, so I do a lot of lifting naturally in life. I do all the things around the house.VirginiaI think it's so interesting, because I do enjoy strength training, and I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't genuinely enjoy it. Because for me, the form of exercise that I detest and get caught in this "I need to make myself do it" cycle is cardio. And if they were pushing cardio as hard as they push strength training, I would be a mess. So that's just to underscore—any way you're moving your body that makes sense for you is good. And if you can find joy in it, even better. DebAbsolutely. And feel playful!If you can find some playfulness, and if you can find some social connection, you're also doing things to help your brain and your aging process be with other people. Finding community and finding some playfulness is very, very healthy. VirginiaI love that. DebSo yes, of course I want people to keep moving. But not in this prescribed, "can you hold a plank for three minutes" way. And not in ways that disconnect you. That's probably the biggest thing for me is when you start counting grams, you get disconnected from your body. You get all in your head. When you start judging your body to make sure you're doing it right, you're disconnecting from your body again. Things that keep you connected and in your body are what I'm all about encouraging.VirginiaI love that.Are there any habits or lifestyle practices, or anything that you're like, "well, if people could add on something...?" And I realize I sound like I'm undermining our whole conversation here, because I'm like, "tell us one habit we need to have!" and that's not what you're about. But I'm just curious what you think people benefit from doing more of in midlife? DebMy number one go-to is adequacy. I am very afraid that people are starting with a diet culture mindset which is so inadequate for supporting our bodies. And I notice that the symptoms of being undernourished are exactly the same symptoms that women experience in menopause. Brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, problems with sleep, loss of libido. It’s the exact same list. So I worry that this "blast your belly fat" conversation is contributing to our menopausal experience, peri and post. You are not going to age well if you are living with scarcity and under-nourishing your brain and body. So that's my number one concern, because I hear it so often, and because diet culture has so skewed our perception of what is adequate. I feel like it's a very common experience. Trying to feed yourself throughout the day, trying not to skip, because there's a lot of that going on, a lot of skipping. Because morally, we feel like we are being good and superior thanks to diet culture when we ignore a request for fuel from our body, that little hunger that pops up. And you're going to have more food noise, by the way. I don't know if you want to get into GLP-1s today, probably not.VirginiaI mean, when are we not getting into it? Feel free to throw it in. DebI would not be getting into it if it wasn't so commonly recommended. The new thing now is microdosing for the menopausal changes in your body. I mean, I'm not going to make a bold statement against GLP-1s, because I have many clients that are benefiting, that are in recovery with type 2 diabetes, that are benefiting and doing well. So I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this facelift plus GLP-1 phenomenon. I believe in bodily autonomy, so I also don't want to diss anybody from making that choice, but discerning what you want from what the social construct is imposing on you requires some time. And that's the other thing that I want people to do in midlife, is to do some checking in with themselves, to get some clarity about what they really want versus what they think they should do. And how can you tell the difference?VirginiaWell I love all of that, and it feels, in so many ways, more doable than counting your protein grams and wearing your weighted vest. I hope people are receiving it that way. And your book is just such a great guide. It's like being in conversation with you. You're just so warm and wise and grounded and gently moving people through what can be heavy work, but there's a lot of joy to it as well.DebYeah, thank you. I tried to create little body breaks, chances for people to just go drink some tea and look at the sky, take a few breaths, because it can be very hard to look at the stories you carry about your body, and do you want to still carry that.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterDebI am in love with the Samin Nosrat book.VirginiaThe new one?DebYes, Good Things. Well, the old one too, but the new one.VirginiaAnything Samin does, really.DebAbsolutely. I mean, her work is such a beautiful antidote to diet culture. I send people to her Netflix series, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, because it's pure food joy, without a single tiny second of nutrition anxiety. It's so rare to find. It's so rare. But she has this--what does she call it? The roasted vegetable salad matrix? I've  dog-eared that page. I just keep it on my counter, because there are so many cool ideas about mixing and matching, and that's kind of how I cook anyway. It's like, what do I have? What's on sale? Can I do some extra roasting on the weekend when I have time? And what can I throw together as I go through the week? Little bit of crunchy, a little bit of bright acid, little bit of sweet. You can make sure you throw your protein in there, too.VirginiaI haven't gotten all the way through the cookbook yet, but I love it, and I love the way she writes about food, and about giving herself permission to seek pleasure. There's a really lovely essay in there about that.DebAnd not perfection! I mean, she rages against that perfection piece, which I think is so helpful. And try to invite people to join each other. Because the other piece about aging is you want to stay in community as much as you can.VirginiaWell, that leads us perfectly into my Butter, which is last night I had the absolute joy of going into Brooklyn for Kate Baer's book launch event with Joanna Goddard at Books Are Magic. Kate Baer is a phenomenal feminist poet. I probably don't need to introduce her work to anybody. Her new book is called, How About Now? There are so many fantastic poems in it. And just the experience of sitting in—it was actually in a church because Kate draws such a big crowd, they have to have it off-site from the bookstore. So we were in a Unitarian Church, and there were probably at least 300 women, most of us in midlife or beyond, just sitting together to celebrate poems about our lives that make us feel seen. I have goosebumps just thinking about it again the next day. It was really such a gift to be in community with so many women. DebThat sounds amazing. VirginiaKate is such a sweetheart, and I’ve been rooting for her a long time. Yes, now let's talk more about your work. People need to preorder Unapologetic Aging: How to Mend and Nourish Your Relationship with Your Body. It's out December 16. That makes it a fantastic holiday gift for any midlife person and beyond midlife person in your life. What else? How can we find you and support your work? What else can we do? DebWell I have a Substack called Unapologetic Aging and you can find me by my name. I am most commonly found on social media on Instagram, but you can find me anywhere, just by my name, Deb Benfield.VirginiaThank you so much for being here. Deb, DebI just want to say one more thing about purchasing the book. The last time we were together, we talked a lot about grandmothers and mothers and the generations, and I think my book is the perfect gift for your mother, If you're trying to have this conversation. VirginiaI agree with that. All the Burnt Toasties who write to me and say, "What do I do about the thing my mom says?" This is what you do.DebAnd have a conversation. VirginiaAbsolutely. Thank you so much for being here. DebThis was really wonderful. Thanks for having me. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Support Anti-Diet Journalism!